OT - WSJ - "The Obama We Don't Know"

[The_Noble_Cause]

They AREN'T US CITIZENS!!!! They aren't even covered by the Geneva Conventions.

They may also not be terrorists, considering reports of indiscriminate village raids.
Until those in Gitmo and our CIA black prisons can challenge their detention and have their day in court we don't know what they are.
Once you start flouting habeus corpus and arguing in favor of indefinate detention you lose me as an American.
We prosecuted Timothy McVeigh and Zacarias Moussaoui successfully within our court system.
Again what are you afraid of?

[The_Noble_Cause]

They are entitled to whatever standard of justice is meted out in a U.S. military court.

Like everything else under this administration, the trials have been politicized.
Little more than dog and pony show trials.
The chief prosecutor even resigned at Gitmo after Pentagon officials kept warning him of "No acquittals."

[RedWingFan]

They AREN'T US CITIZENS!!!! They aren't even covered by the Geneva Conventions.

We prosecuted Timothy McVeigh and Zacarias Moussaoui successfully within our court system.
Again what are you afraid of?

So was OJ Simpson!!!!

[The_Noble_Cause]

So was OJ Simpson!!!!

I suggest you read the writings of constitutional lawyer and Reagan's associate deputy attorney general Bruce Fein.
What you're arguing in favor of is not Conservative.
Just another Bush whore.

[RedWingFan]

So was OJ Simpson!!!!

I suggest you read the writings of constitutional lawyer and Reagan's associate deputy attorney general Bruce Fein.
What you're arguing in favor of is not Conservative.

I prefer the writings of constitutional lawyer Mark Levin. Yes it is conservative!

Just another Bush whore.

Right! Being against enemy combatants captured on the battlefield being given constitutional rights is only a Bush issue.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Right! Being against enemy combatants captured on the battlefield being given constitutional rights is only a Bush issue.

Right now, only the government defines who is or who isn't an "enemy combatant."
Those who support this warped view can only do so if they subscribe to the President's infinite wartime powers, which is bullshit, considering terrorism is a tactic, not a war. There is nothing Conservative about the idea of a unitary exceutive.
Levin, like Limbaugh and Hannity, are administration apologists.

[Saint John]

Right now, only the government defines who is or who isn't an "enemy combatant."

How dare they not check with you!!!

[JrnySuxBalls]

Just another Bush whore.

I find it interesting that there are any left.

[conversationpc]

Levin, like Limbaugh and Hannity, are administration apologists.

You leftists badmouth anyone who has even one good thing to say about Bush, no matter how much you agree with them on other issues.

[The_Noble_Cause]

You leftists badmouth anyone who has even one good thing to say about Bush, no matter how much you agree with them on other issues.

Hannity, Levin, and Beck don't say "one good thing," they are the official propaganda arm of the administration.
Beck even boasted of getting a personal tour of the White House and came out of it describing Bush as Lincolnian. LOL.
Continue to help fatten Beck's checkbook, Dave.
These guys fly over Middle America in thier jetstreams and laugh at how they've played so many like a cheap glockenspiel.

[conversationpc]

Hannity, Levin, and Beck don't say "one good thing," they are the official propaganda arm of the administration.
Beck even boasted of getting a personal tour of the White House and came out of it describing Bush as Lincolnian. LOL.
Continue to help fatten Beck's checkbook, Dave.

Boy, talk about Republicans mouthing their own party's talking points like dummies. Apparently, it's only propaganda if a conservative says it. You're far more partisan and closed-minded than anyone else on this forum and you have the gall to talk about propaganda? Do you work for Goebbels Inc?

Other than perhaps Savage, is there another conservative talk show host who disagrees with the Bush administration as loudly and as often as Beck does?

These guys fly over Middle America in thier jetstreams and laugh at how they've played so many like a cheap glockenspiel.

Feigned outrage doth not become you.

[The_Noble_Cause]

You're far more partisan and closed-minded than anyone else on this forum.

I am the only honest guy in this thread.

Do you work for Goebbels Inc?

Is that a consortium of right wing gasbags?

Other than perhaps Savage, is there another conservative talk show host who disagrees with the Bush administration as loudly and as often as Beck does?

Beck was waay late to that party. He only turned when the public opinion polls tumbled.
Even now he berates government spending while never mentioning the 3 trillion dollar war.
Savage, in his rare saner moments, calls out Beck and Limbaugh, and their gullible audience, for exactly what they are.

I just had Limbaugh on and within the first ten minutes it's some housewife calling up to effusively thank Limbaugh for educating her and speaking the truth. You guys are all brainwashed.

[MJM1959]

Again what are you afraid of?

That is the funny thing about it. Everything I hear from the "conservatives," Republicans, right wing pundits, Neocons, Theocons and various Joruney message board members revolves around the concept of constant fear. Fear of terrorists, terrorism, Iran, Muslims etc. Every statement uttered, every decision made seems to be a result of being scared to death all of the time. I find it amazing that this type of person can find the courage to get out of bed in the morning. Especially considering all of the things that are more likely to cause harm and suffering to them and to their families. These people are willing to sacrifice almost anything and everything so that the government will keep them "safe." No amount of money or blood or constitutional rights sacrificed is too high of a price to pay so that they can wrap that warm blanket of perceived safety around them. Amazing.

[The_Noble_Cause]

That is the funny thing about it. Everything I hear from the "conservatives," Republicans, right wing pundits, Neocons, Theocons and various Joruney message board members revolves around the concept of constant fear. Fear of terrorists, terrorism, Iran, Muslims etc. Every statement uttered, every decision made seems to be a result of being scared to death all of the time. I find it amazing that this type of person can find the courage to get out of bed in the morning. Especially considering all of the things that are more likely to cause harm and suffering to them and to their families. These people are willing to sacrifice almost anything and everything so that the government will keep them "safe." No amount of money or blood or constitutional rights sacrificed is too high of a price to pay so that they can wrap that warm blanket of perceived safety around them. Amazing.

I hear that. Luckily the Supreme Court made the right decision today.

[The_Noble_Cause]

They aren't entitled to due process as it exists in the U.S. judicial system for AMERICAN citizens. They are entitled to whatever standard of justice is meted out in a U.S. military court.

Not anymore.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/1 ... 06718.html

[MJM1959]

I found this interesting:

Discussing the restoration of habeas at Guantanamo last year, Colin Powell noted:

"The concern was, well, then they’ll have access to lawyers, then they’ll have access to writs of habeas corpus. So what? Let them. Isn’t that what our system’s all about? And by the way, America, unfortunately, has too many people in jail, all of whom had lawyers and access to writs of habeas corpus. And so we can handle bad people in our system."

[RedWingFan]

They aren't entitled to due process as it exists in the U.S. judicial system for AMERICAN citizens. They are entitled to whatever standard of justice is meted out in a U.S. military court.

Not anymore.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/1 ... 06718.html

Congratulations TNC, looks like some may win their release so they can continue targeting our soldiers.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Congratulations TNC, looks like some may win their release so they can continue targeting our soldiers.

You either believe in America's justice system or you don't.
If you don't like it, move to Guadalajara.

[RedWingFan]

Congratulations TNC, looks like some may win their release so they can continue targeting our soldiers.

You either believe in America's justice system or you don't.
If you don't like it, move to Guadalajara.

I believe in the Constitution, not the foreign law current lawyers on the courts are looking to in making decisions.

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

Good ole Anthony Kennedy, yet another disappointing vote from him

[rubyglare]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html Wednesday, December 26, 2001

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Usama bin Laden has died a peaceful death due to an untreated lung complication, the Pakistan Observer reported, citing a Taliban leader who allegedly attended the funeral of the Al Qaeda leader.

"The Coalition troops are engaged in a mad search operation but they would never be able to fulfill their cherished goal of getting Usama alive or dead," the source said.

Bin Laden, according to the source, was suffering from a serious lung complication and succumbed to the disease in mid-December, in the vicinity of the Tora Bora mountains. The source claimed that bin Laden was laid to rest honorably in his last abode and his grave was made as per his Wahabi belief.

About 30 close associates of bin Laden in Al Qaeda, including his most trusted and personal bodyguards, his family members and some "Taliban friends," attended the funeral rites. A volley of bullets was also fired to pay final tribute to the "great leader."

The Taliban source who claims to have seen bin Laden's face before burial said "he looked pale ... but calm, relaxed and confident."

Asked whether bin Laden had any feelings of remorse before death, the source vehemently said "no." Instead, he said, bin Laden was proud that he succeeded in his mission of igniting awareness amongst Muslims about hegemonistic designs and conspiracies of "pagans" against Islam. Bin Laden, he said, held the view that the sacrifice of a few hundred people in Afghanistan was nothing, as those who laid their lives in creating an atmosphere of resistance will be adequately rewarded by Almighty Allah.

When asked where bin Laden was buried, the source said, "I am sure that like other places in Tora Bora, that particular place too must have vanished."

[RedWingFan]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html Wednesday, December 26, 2001

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Usama bin Laden has died a peaceful death due to an untreated lung complication, the Pakistan Observer reported, citing a Taliban leader who allegedly attended the funeral of the Al Qaeda leader.

"The Coalition troops are engaged in a mad search operation but they would never be able to fulfill their cherished goal of getting Usama alive or dead," the source said.

Bin Laden, according to the source, was suffering from a serious lung complication and succumbed to the disease in mid-December, in the vicinity of the Tora Bora mountains. The source claimed that bin Laden was laid to rest honorably in his last abode and his grave was made as per his Wahabi belief.

About 30 close associates of bin Laden in Al Qaeda, including his most trusted and personal bodyguards, his family members and some "Taliban friends," attended the funeral rites. A volley of bullets was also fired to pay final tribute to the "great leader."

The Taliban source who claims to have seen bin Laden's face before burial said "he looked pale ... but calm, relaxed and confident."

Asked whether bin Laden had any feelings of remorse before death, the source vehemently said "no." Instead, he said, bin Laden was proud that he succeeded in his mission of igniting awareness amongst Muslims about hegemonistic designs and conspiracies of "pagans" against Islam. Bin Laden, he said, held the view that the sacrifice of a few hundred people in Afghanistan was nothing, as those who laid their lives in creating an atmosphere of resistance will be adequately rewarded by Almighty Allah.

When asked where bin Laden was buried, the source said, "I am sure that like other places in Tora Bora, that particular place too must have vanished."

Uh, what does Osama have to do with Obama? (Outside of an introduction from Ted Kennedy )

[Centaure]

Again what are you afraid of?

That is the funny thing about it. Everything I hear from the "conservatives," Republicans, right wing pundits, Neocons, Theocons and various Joruney message board members revolves around the concept of constant fear. Fear of terrorists, terrorism, Iran, Muslims etc. Every statement uttered, every decision made seems to be a result of being scared to death all of the time. I find it amazing that this type of person can find the courage to get out of bed in the morning. Especially considering all of the things that are more likely to cause harm and suffering to them and to their families. These people are willing to sacrifice almost anything and everything so that the government will keep them "safe." No amount of money or blood or constitutional rights sacrificed is too high of a price to pay so that they can wrap that warm blanket of perceived safety around them. Amazing.

Interesting article: http://tntalk.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/ ... s-of-fear/

[conversationpc]

Again what are you afraid of?

That is the funny thing about it. Everything I hear from the "conservatives," Republicans, right wing pundits, Neocons, Theocons and various Joruney message board members revolves around the concept of constant fear. Fear of terrorists, terrorism, Iran, Muslims etc. Every statement uttered, every decision made seems to be a result of being scared to death all of the time. I find it amazing that this type of person can find the courage to get out of bed in the morning. Especially considering all of the things that are more likely to cause harm and suffering to them and to their families. These people are willing to sacrifice almost anything and everything so that the government will keep them "safe." No amount of money or blood or constitutional rights sacrificed is too high of a price to pay so that they can wrap that warm blanket of perceived safety around them. Amazing.

Interesting article: http://tntalk.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/ ... s-of-fear/

Healthy fear is a good thing and a good motivator. Lack of it altogether makes the country less vigilant.

[Centaure]

Healthy fear ! How about an interesting concept...

I don't think that you need to be afraid to be vigilant. A lot of animals (including us) use fear for surviving. We (humans) have the «gift», the capacity, of intelligence. I think we should use our intelligence instead of fear in our relations with the others.

To me, fear is never a good concellor.

[RossValoryRocks]

Healthy fear ! How about an interesting concept...

I don't think that you need to be afraid to be vigilant. A lot of animals (including us) use fear for surviving. We (humans) have the «gift», the capacity, of intelligence. I think we should use our intelligence instead of fear in our relations with the others.

To me, fear is never a good concellor.

If we would have had a little more of that healthy fear there wouldn't have been a 9/11...given all the small attacks that had happened in the previous 8 years we should have.

Living in a state of blissful ignorance is no way to go either.

[Centaure]

Healthy fear ! How about an interesting concept...

I don't think that you need to be afraid to be vigilant. A lot of animals (including us) use fear for surviving. We (humans) have the «gift», the capacity, of intelligence. I think we should use our intelligence instead of fear in our relations with the others.

To me, fear is never a good concellor.

If we would have had a little more of that healthy fear there wouldn't have been a 9/11...given all the small attacks that had happened in the previous 8 years we should have.

Living in a state of blissful ignorance is no way to go either.

If ''healthy fear'' means intelligence, that is okay with me.

[conversationpc]

Healthy fear ! How about an interesting concept...

I don't think that you need to be afraid to be vigilant. A lot of animals (including us) use fear for surviving. We (humans) have the «gift», the capacity, of intelligence. I think we should use our intelligence instead of fear in our relations with the others.

To me, fear is never a good concellor.

If we would have had a little more of that healthy fear there wouldn't have been a 9/11...given all the small attacks that had happened in the previous 8 years we should have.

Living in a state of blissful ignorance is no way to go either.

If ''healthy fear'' means intelligence, that is okay with me.

Healthy fear is not an out-of-control kind of fear that some people have that causes them to do irrational things. That's not what I was talking about.

[MJM1959]

Fear, healthy or not has no place in determining foreign policy. It is an emotion. Perhaps one of the more dangerous ones as it can lead to irrational behavior unless kept in check. I believe that there are certain people in the goverment and the media that continue to stoke the flames of fear, using it as a means to try and control people. As for myself, I believe that it is time for a little less fear and a little more common sense in dealing with the many problems that face this country.

[conversationpc]

Fear, healthy or not has no place in determining foreign policy. It is an emotion. Perhaps one of the more dangerous ones as it can lead to irrational behavior unless kept in check. I believe that there are certain people in the goverment and the media that continue to stoke the flames of fear, using it as a means to try and control people. As for myself, I believe that it is time for a little less fear and a little more common sense in dealing with the many problems that face this country.

Good, healthy fear leads to common sense.