Thoughts on Red 13 and Generations...

[sandiglam]

I thought "Trial By Fire" was a good, but not great release back in 1996. I thought "Arrival" was a brilliant release in 2001. Initially I didn't care much for Red 13 and Generations. On the heels of this new cd, another brilliant release in "Revelations", I thought maybe I should go back and give Red 13 and Generations another try. After all, how could a band put out such brilliance in 2001 and 2008, but not do the same in between there?

I tried, brothers, I tried. Red 13 is HORRIBLE, and Generations is not much better than that. I don't think I will EVER listen to either of them again. My wife, who is a HUGE Journey fan, said "Get this out of the cd player. It's so bad I'm getting sick to my stomach." The production is poor, but more importantly, the songs are just plain bad. Every once in a while, you hear something that might've made a solid melody, but it's rare. For the most part, they are just slow, boring, dull songs. I was curious if anyone else thought those two cds were terrible...

Thank God for Arnel Pineda! The new cd is brilliant!!!

Sandiglam

[The_Noble_Cause]

I thought "Trial By Fire" was a good, but not great release back in 1996. I thought "Arrival" was a brilliant release in 2001. Initially I didn't care much for Red 13 and Generations. On the heels of this new cd, another brilliant release in "Revelations", I thought maybe I should go back and give Red 13 and Generations another try. After all, how could a band put out such brilliance in 2001 and 2008, but not do the same in between there?

I tried, brothers, I tried. Red 13 is HORRIBLE, and Generations is not much better than that. I don't think I will EVER listen to either of them again. My wife, who is a HUGE Journey fan, said "Get this out of the cd player. It's so bad I'm getting sick to my stomach." The production is poor, but more importantly, the songs are just plain bad. Every once in a while, you hear something that might've made a solid melody, but it's rare. For the most part, they are just slow, boring, dull songs. I was curious if anyone else thought those two cds were terrible...

Thank God for Arnel Pineda! The new cd is brilliant!!!

Sandiglam

Don't agree at all.
In fact two of the songs on Red 13 are from that "brilliant release" known as 'Arrival'.
'The Time', in particular, has a very strong hooky chorus.
It just isn't saturated in dated keyboard synth shit.

[sandiglam]

I hear what you are saying, but I guess I make no bones about what I love about music, especially Journey music -- and that's the dated keyboard synth stuff. "The Time" has a decent chorus, but that's what I was talking about when I said that occasionally I heard something that seemed like it could've been great, but ultimately fell short.

For the record, I don't think every song on "Arrival" is brilliant, but I think the cd as a whole is. Half of the songs on there are mediocre, but the ones that are good, are as good or better than Journey has EVER been, before or since.

If you think that the keyboard stuff is lame, I can see why you like Red 13 and Generations. For me, if there's no keyboards, I'm not listening!

Sandiglam

[Eric]

Out of Harms Way, Faith in the Heartland, Never Too Late and Place in your Heart are all great tunes.

[The_Noble_Cause]

If you think that the keyboard stuff is lame, I can see why you like Red 13 and Generations. For me, if there's no keyboards, I'm not listening!

Sandiglam

I don't think they're lame, I just don't need to hear them on every track.
I think there's alot of valid material on 'Generations."
Eric has already mentioned a few.
I would include "Beyond the Clouds" and "A Better Life" to his list also.

[sandiglam]

Out of Harms Way, Faith in the Heartland, Never Too Late and Place in your Heart are all great tunes.

"Faith in the Heartland" is pretty good, but way too long IMO. The new version I like a LOT better. "Place in Your Heart" is the second best song on Generations, but by comparison, it would be the worst song on Revelations I think. What I come back to is the feeling that "Yeah, these four songs are good by "Generations" standards, but would I ever pick them over "Higher Place", "To Be Alive Again", or "After All These Years"? No, not then, not today, not ever.

Sandiglam

[marco17]

Red 13 was progressive for the band to try and move into a new direction. It didn't work. If you look at it as just a rock EP then it is pretty strong IMO, but it is certainly not the typical Journey sound. Generations could have been a much better release had they spent more time, money, and effort on it, but they chose not to. Not to mention they were trying to be more progressive or whatever you want to call it by letting the others sing. Some may say that they did that to hide Augeri's dying voice, but he could sing anything he wanted to and it would have been fixed and cleaned up in the studio to sound good on the release. Bottom line is that for those who are into the "Legacy" sound, neither of those releases would satisfy because they aren't. Especially for Generations, I also agree that the song writing wasn't great. I think Arnel did a good job, but I would challenge anyone and say that any of the previous singers [insert your favorite here] could have recorded Revelation and it would sound just as good because many of the tracks are stronger then what they have been writing over the past few years.

[sandiglam]

If you think that the keyboard stuff is lame, I can see why you like Red 13 and Generations. For me, if there's no keyboards, I'm not listening!

Sandiglam

I don't think they're lame, I just don't need to hear them on every track.
I think there's alot of valid material on 'Generations."
Eric has already mentioned a few.
I would include "Beyond the Clouds" and "A Better Life" to his list also.

Truth be told, if I have a weakness in my fandom, it's a lack of diversity. What I want from Journey is 1000 songs that sound just like "Faithfully". I don't want anything that's different in any way. When I get something different, I rarely care much for it.

Sandiglam

[Greg]

Out of Harms Way, Faith in the Heartland, Never Too Late and Place in your Heart are all great tunes.

"Faith in the Heartland" is pretty good, but way too long IMO. The new version I like a LOT better. "Place in Your Heart" is the second best song on Generations, but by comparison, it would be the worst song on Revelations I think. What I come back to is the feeling that "Yeah, these four songs are good by "Generations" standards, but would I ever pick them over "Higher Place", "To Be Alive Again", or "After All These Years"? No, not then, not today, not ever.

Sandiglam

Faith In The Heartland is pretty much just as long with the remake is it was with the original...lol!

Arrival was definitely the best Augeri era album. No doubt about that. For one reason, Generations was rushed out. Whenever you have Friga and Ross singing lead on a Journey song, something's wrong!

[amaron]

Out of Harms Way, Faith in the Heartland, Never Too Late and Place in your Heart are all great tunes.

"Faith in the Heartland" is pretty good, but way too long IMO. The new version I like a LOT better.

lol @ 35 seconds longer.

[sandiglam]

Maybe it's just the recording. I haven't sat down with a watch and timed the two versions, but I do know that one of them makes me beg for the ending, and the other I enjoy a lot. Because of that, maybe one just seems a lot longer. It's like school -- the classes you enjoy go by fast, the ones you hate last forever, but they are all 55 minutes long!

Sandiglam

[Since 78]

I personally think Red 13 was great and only wish it would have had more songs. WAFTE , State of Grace and The time are some of my favorite Journey tunes.

[Greg]

Maybe it's just the recording. I haven't sat down with a watch and timed the two versions, but I do know that one of them makes me beg for the ending, and the other I enjoy a lot. Because of that, maybe one just seems a lot longer. It's like school -- the classes you enjoy go by fast, the ones you hate last forever, but they are all 55 minutes long!

Sandiglam

But if their both the same math classes?

[Eric]

Out of Harms Way, Faith in the Heartland, Never Too Late and Place in your Heart are all great tunes.

"Faith in the Heartland" is pretty good, but way too long IMO. The new version I like a LOT better. "Place in Your Heart" is the second best song on Generations, but by comparison, it would be the worst song on Revelations I think. What I come back to is the feeling that "Yeah, these four songs are good by "Generations" standards, but would I ever pick them over "Higher Place", "To Be Alive Again", or "After All These Years"? No, not then, not today, not ever.

Sandiglam

To Be Alive Again is kinda flat for me...

[conversationpc]

I really wish they had held on to the "Red 13" tracks and included them on "Generations" with a different track list, something like the one below...

1. Faith in the Heartland
2. The Place in Your Heart
3. A Better Life
4. Walking Away From the Edge
5. Butterfly (She Flies Alone)
6. Believe
7. Knowing That You Love Me
8. Out of Harms Way
9. State of Grace
10. Better Together
11. The Time
12. Beyond the Clouds

[Luvsaugeri]

I really wish they had held on to the "Red 13" tracks and included them on "Generations" with a different track list, something like the one below...

1. Faith in the Heartland
2. The Place in Your Heart
3. A Better Life
4. Walking Away From the Edge
5. Butterfly (She Flies Alone)
6. Believe
7. Knowing That You Love Me
8. Out of Harms Way
9. State of Grace
10. Better Together
11. The Time
12. Beyond the Clouds

Other than "Knowing That You Love Me" I'd say you are dead on Dave!!

I like both Generations and Red 13. There are som clunkers on Generations but like you showed above, it you took a couple songs off of it and put the Red 13 songs in.....it's a great CD IMO.

[youkeepmewaiting]

Generations had poor production and no flow to the album, but buried away are some great, great songs.

Ditto for Red13, Walkin Away From The Edge is just an incredible song

[Hollywood]

These two record to me demonstrated how they need a producer in the studio when Perry’s not in the band. Kevin Elson was more of an engineer on Escape and Frontiers and had Mike Stone and Perry to produce the record. Perry was great at song structure and keeping Neal in check on the extended riffing front. Kevin Shirley is also great at this, which is probably why they bumped heads on Arrival.

Red 13 is the worst product they put out as a band. Now I still do enjoy it to some extent, but the production is weak and the songs are too stretched.

Generations improved but really lacked focus due to multiple singers and lacking sound quality. My opinion of Kevin Elson is that he is one of the best sound guys in the business and a decent produce when away from Neal Schon. In the Journey camp he is an employee and therefore has no pull in confronting the band on song structure and ideas and this cripples his ability as a producer. Kevin Shirley is contracted to do a job and if it doesn’t go well he can walk and take on something else. I’m sure he turns down a lot of good projects due to time constraints. Therefore he has the ability to really direct the band and Neal.

Generations is really flawed by have Jon Cain, Ross Valory and Neal Schon singing lead. No matter how good those songs are they do not belong on a Journey record and therefore takes away from the focus. There are some phenomenal songs hurt by song structure and length. Believe is such a great song but should not be longer than 4 minutes. Never Too Late is stand out and almost got left off and fans with the tour copy have never heard it. Faith and even Place in my Heart need work. I still listen to the record and am such a Journey fan that I always will, but I edited the songs I like most before they went on my car’s music server or my iPOD.

Just my two cents.

[Rick]

This is incredible. I'm listening to Red 13 as we speak. It's like my second time to listen to it.

I thought "The Time" sounded like a rock song that I know, but can't place, by SRV maybe?

[squirt1]

I never could get into the Augeri era. JSS was a real possibility. I may try Arnel, but it will be to see Heart and Cheap Trick. Sound alikes are nothing like the original.

[Centaure]

It is kind of sad for Journey, I guess. Journey is condemned to write songs thats sounds like they were made in the 80ies.

When they try something new, the fans don't like it. Let's just read again Ross interview for Generations :

The recording of Generations is some of my proudest moments. The music is strong, it's varied, it's surprisingly not necessarily what people would expect from Journey.
With the deprival of Arrival – being that nobody thought anything of it for whatever reason – we made a sincere and conscientious attempt at writing music that tied to our past influences and past styles. That threads, that signature…from Arrival to the songs we were most known for in the past.
And it did absolutely no good. It didn't mean anything to anybody.
In spite of what I believe and what you believe, ah, they were some quality songs and quality recordings representing the Journey style and all of a sudden nothing happened

Yes….Generations is quite an accomplishment and it reaches out into new areas.
There are many things about Every Generation that is Rolling Stones-ish, there is Faith In The Heartland that smacks of U2 – and that's a compliment – it's not like us trying to sound like U2.
I don't want to mention other bands as it might give your readers the wrong impression.
But we stretched out into areas that we liked. With Arrival, we tried to be loyal to the sound and style of those past hits and it didn't make any difference. Now we are just doing what we want to do.
And we can handle it if they don't like it as we are used to that also!
The reaction to Arrival and Red 13 was off the wall! I loved it, but they just didn't know what do to with it.

I am not saying that Red 13 and Generations are masterpieces, but that is music that THEY want to do now. What I understand of the average Journey fans is that they wants commercial sounding songs: short pre-chewed formulated songs that sound the same as in the eighties... (and please don't make them too heavy...).

Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly.

- Albert Einstein

[kgdjpubs]

These two record to me demonstrated how they need a producer in the studio when Perry’s not in the band. Kevin Elson was more of an engineer on Escape and Frontiers and had Mike Stone and Perry to produce the record. Perry was great at song structure and keeping Neal in check on the extended riffing front. Kevin Shirley is also great at this, which is probably why they bumped heads on Arrival.

Red 13 is the worst product they put out as a band. Now I still do enjoy it to some extent, but the production is weak and the songs are too stretched.

Agreed. Some strong songs, but they really need a producer to tighten the songs up. Lyrically, Red 13 is quite good for Journey standards, but the end result is way too much of a jam session as opposed to finished songs. With some work tightening up the songs and making some stronger choruses, those could be great additions to the Journey catalogue. As it stands, Walking Away From the Edge is great as is, and the rest need varying amounts of work.

Generations improved but really lacked focus due to multiple singers and lacking sound quality. My opinion of Kevin Elson is that he is one of the best sound guys in the business and a decent produce when away from Neal Schon. In the Journey camp he is an employee and therefore has no pull in confronting the band on song structure and ideas and this cripples his ability as a producer. Kevin Shirley is contracted to do a job and if it doesn’t go well he can walk and take on something else. I’m sure he turns down a lot of good projects due to time constraints. Therefore he has the ability to really direct the band and Neal.

Generations is really flawed by have Jon Cain, Ross Valory and Neal Schon singing lead. No matter how good those songs are they do not belong on a Journey record and therefore takes away from the focus. There are some phenomenal songs hurt by song structure and length. Believe is such a great song but should not be longer than 4 minutes. Never Too Late is stand out and almost got left off and fans with the tour copy have never heard it. Faith and even Place in my Heart need work. I still listen to the record and am such a Journey fan that I always will, but I edited the songs I like most before they went on my car’s music server or my iPOD.

Just my two cents.

Also agreed. Generations is half a Journey album, and half ranges from needing work to shouldn't have even been considered. Cut Believe down a bit and work on the chorus and it would be fine--it justs repeats over and over at the end, and that could be easily fixed. Do a little work on Every Generation and either let it be a Cain/Augeri duet or just let Augeri sing it, and that is fine also.

Take the good parts of Generations, add Red 13 tightened up and reworked with a good producer who will make it sound like Journey and you have a worthy followup to Arrival.

something like this....
1. Faith in the Heartland
2. A Place in Your Heart
3. A Better Life
4. Every Generation (Augeri vocals)
5. Walking Away from the Edge
6. The Time
7. Believe
8. State of Grace
9. I Can Breathe
10. Out of Harms Way
11. Beyond the Clouds
12. It's Never Too Late

[larryfromnextdoor]

This is incredible. I'm listening to Red 13 as we speak. It's like my second time to listen to it.

I thought "The Time" sounded like a rock song that I know, but can't place, by SRV maybe?

no.... welll..................maybe kenny wayne sheppard.. ..... or lange.........................good call... its not Blue on Black...

im all over it.. but no where close.. pretty much like my dating life...

[Moon Beam]

This is incredible. I'm listening to Red 13 as we speak. It's like my second time to listen to it.

I thought "The Time" sounded like a rock song that I know, but can't place, by SRV maybe?

no.... welll..................maybe kenny wayne sheppard.. ..... or lange.........................good call... its not Blue on Black...

im all over it.. but no where close.. pretty much like my dating life...

Always good for a shake you are Larry .....don't ever change.

[separate_wayz]

It is kind of sad for Journey, I guess. Journey is condemned to write songs thats sounds like they were made in the 80ies.

When they try something new, the fans don't like it. Let's just read again Ross interview for Generations :

The recording of Generations is some of my proudest moments. The music is strong, it's varied, it's surprisingly not necessarily what people would expect from Journey.
With the deprival of Arrival – being that nobody thought anything of it for whatever reason – we made a sincere and conscientious attempt at writing music that tied to our past influences and past styles. That threads, that signature…from Arrival to the songs we were most known for in the past.
And it did absolutely no good. It didn't mean anything to anybody.
In spite of what I believe and what you believe, ah, they were some quality songs and quality recordings representing the Journey style and all of a sudden nothing happened

Yes….Generations is quite an accomplishment and it reaches out into new areas.
There are many things about Every Generation that is Rolling Stones-ish, there is Faith In The Heartland that smacks of U2 – and that's a compliment – it's not like us trying to sound like U2.
I don't want to mention other bands as it might give your readers the wrong impression.
But we stretched out into areas that we liked. With Arrival, we tried to be loyal to the sound and style of those past hits and it didn't make any difference. Now we are just doing what we want to do.
And we can handle it if they don't like it as we are used to that also!
The reaction to Arrival and Red 13 was off the wall! I loved it, but they just didn't know what do to with it.

I am not saying that Red 13 and Generations are masterpieces, but that is music that THEY want to do now. What I understand of the average Journey fans is that they wants commercial sounding songs: short pre-chewed formulated songs that sound the same as in the eighties... (and please don't make them too heavy...).

Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly.

- Albert Einstein

I would agree. While I have enjoyed the new release (Revelation), I think I have almost more enjoyed the commercial success that Journey is having. For me, I think there was more artistic growth and development in Arrival and Generations. Higher Place had an '80s feel, without sounding dated. Kiss Me Softly had a very nice sound and showed Journey spreading its wings. Live and Breathe was an arguably contemporary rock-anthem. The Place in Your Heart sounded like where Journey should have been circa 2005, had it not taken a Raised-on-Radio detour in 1986-7 and a band hiatus for ten years following.

If there was one particular disappointment with the new release, it's that Faith in the Heartland got a second-life on Revelation, but The Place in Your Heart didn't. TPIYH is a legit rocker, which Revelation doesn't have. Revelation does have a sincere ballad (After All These Years). Yet a sincere (i.e., not contrived, not anachronistic, not '80s-formulaic) but radio-friendly rocker (like TPIYH) would have been a very, very nice addition to Revelation. In fact, for me, it would have made the album a homerun, hands-down.

My hope is that the commercial success of Revelation allows Journey to follow it up with an album with some more artistic success.

[Red13JoePa]

These two record to me demonstrated how they need a producer in the studio when Perry’s not in the band. Kevin Elson was more of an engineer on Escape and Frontiers and had Mike Stone and Perry to produce the record.

That right?


Thanks for that matter-of-fact dogma.

[X factor]

I really wish they had held on to the "Red 13" tracks and included them on "Generations" with a different track list, something like the one below...

1. Faith in the Heartland
2. The Place in Your Heart
3. A Better Life
4. Walking Away From the Edge
5. Butterfly (She Flies Alone)
6. Believe
7. Knowing That You Love Me
8. Out of Harms Way
9. State of Grace
10. Better Together
11. The Time
12. Beyond the Clouds

Take off BUTTERFLY and that's a damned fine album you got there, PC

[Liam]

Actually...I'm wondering why the hell "Believe" is on ANY of the tracklists?!?!?! Worst song in the Journey catalogue. I'll take "Butterfly" over that ANY day.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Actually...I'm wondering why the hell "Believe" is on ANY of the tracklists?!?!?! Worst song in the Journey catalogue.

Right on.
And here I thought after "Tall Stories" and "Shine" that Augeri taking on some of the writing duties would be a good thing.

[purpleplanet10]

I really still love Red 13 it was diffrent and it was a thank you to the fans, so they gave us a little something diffrent and i love that