Thoughts on Red 13 and Generations...

[Matthew]

My hope is that the commercial success of Revelation allows Journey to follow it up with an album with some more artistic success.

Has it occured to you that the extraordinary response to Revelation is because it is an artistic success? And that at long last Journey have a frontman the management, the media, the retailers and the fans can believe in?

It's funny...for years Augeri line-up fans were bemoaning the lack of success and blamed it all on the record company and on the market...saying that 'it isn't 1983 you know'....that it was impossible for a band like Journey to have a hit record anymore.....and generally making every excuse under the sun for the underwhelming reaction to Arrival, Red 13 and Generations.

The fact is...the band just weren't cutting it. And as for this claim that Arrival was more innovative than Revelation...oh please...both records are total 80s pastiches with not a hint of originality. The difference is that Journey now are doing the same old thing much much better than they have done in over a decade.

[separate_wayz]

My hope is that the commercial success of Revelation allows Journey to follow it up with an album with some more artistic success.

Has it occured to you that the extraordinary response to Revelation is because it is an artistic success? And that at long last Journey have a frontman the management, the media, the retailers and the fans can believe in?

It's funny...for years Augeri line-up fans were bemoaning the lack of success and blamed it all on the record company and on the market...saying that 'it isn't 1983 you know'....that it was impossible for a band like Journey to have a hit record anymore.....and generally making every excuse under the sun for the underwhelming reaction to Arrival, Red 13 and Generations.

The fact is...the band just weren't cutting it. And as for this claim that Arrival was more innovative than Revelation...oh please...both records are total 80s pastiches with not a hint of originality. The difference is that Journey now are doing the same old thing much much better than they have done in over a decade.

So the purchasers of the 104,000 units of "Revelation" knew exactly what was on those CDs, and that's why they bought them? And they had heard these tracks from, what, hours and hours of radio airplay? I don't think so. The fact is the vast majority had no idea whatsoever what was on those CDs when they bought them the first week -- so how could they possibly have had an opinion about the artistic accomplishments of the CD beforehand?

Your dependent and independent variables are backwards. Fans perceive artistic success with this CD because it has achieved some commercial success to date, not the other way around. Would we be having this same discussion if the CD had sold, say, 24,000 CDs the first week? Nope. It would've been viewed as an artistic flop because it had been a commercial flop -- which is exactly the position that "Arrival" had found itself in.

Don't get me wrong. I think there are a couple good tracks on the "Revelation" CD, and one great one. I hope the CD goes platinum (or double-platinum, or triple-platinum). But I think the band intentionally created a "safe" CD: try to bag a commercial success through Wal-Mart that will allow them to make new CDs through Wal-Mart, and give them possibly more artistic license to do more creative things.

I think when Journey has tried some things that would give them a more-contemporary sound, the fan base has generally not been receptive, sadly. So, this time around, I think they've aimed for a solid commercial success, knowing that that will give them the freedom to more creative things later, if they so choose.

[Matthew]

My hope is that the commercial success of Revelation allows Journey to follow it up with an album with some more artistic success.

Has it occured to you that the extraordinary response to Revelation is because it is an artistic success? And that at long last Journey have a frontman the management, the media, the retailers and the fans can believe in?

It's funny...for years Augeri line-up fans were bemoaning the lack of success and blamed it all on the record company and on the market...saying that 'it isn't 1983 you know'....that it was impossible for a band like Journey to have a hit record anymore.....and generally making every excuse under the sun for the underwhelming reaction to Arrival, Red 13 and Generations.

The fact is...the band just weren't cutting it. And as for this claim that Arrival was more innovative than Revelation...oh please...both records are total 80s pastiches with not a hint of originality. The difference is that Journey now are doing the same old thing much much better than they have done in over a decade.

So the purchasers of the 104,000 units of "Revelation" knew exactly what was on those CDs, and that's why they bought them? And they had heard these tracks from, what, hours and hours of radio airplay? I don't think so. The fact is the vast majority had no idea whatsoever what was on those CDs when they bought them the first week -- so how could they possibly have had an opinion about the artistic accomplishments of the CD beforehand?

Your dependent and independent variables are backwards. Fans perceive artistic success with this CD because it has achieved some commercial success to date, not the other way around. Would we be having this same discussion if the CD had sold, say, 24,000 CDs the first week? Nope. It would've been viewed as an artistic flop because it had been a commercial flop -- which is exactly the position that "Arrival" had found itself in.

Don't get me wrong. I think there are a couple good tracks on the "Revelation" CD, and one great one. I hope the CD goes platinum (or double-platinum, or triple-platinum). But I think the band intentionally created a "safe" CD: try to bag a commercial success through Wal-Mart that will allow them to make new CDs through Wal-Mart, and give them possibly more artistic license to do more creative things.

I think when Journey has tried some things that would give them a more-contemporary sound, the fan base has generally not been receptive, sadly. So, this time around, I think they've aimed for a solid commercial success, knowing that that will give them the freedom to more creative things later, if they so choose.

SW - I take your point that the number of units shifted so far doesn't necessarily correlate to the quality of the new songs. In fact, the presence of the same old Perry era classics on not one but two out of the three discs is probably the key reason.

And I agree that Journey haven't been adventurous - except they have broadened out the pastiche to include several AOR acts and not just classic Journey.

But what I really don't get is why you think Arrival is any less derivative or play-safe? Where was the innovation on that CD? I just don't hear it....

[finalfight]

The word of mouth for this release has been great which I am sure accounted for a large number of its sales along with those attributed to the band's fanbase as well as impulse buyers. I would definitely rate this album as an artistic (and critical) success. If the songs were bad it would not have sold in anywhere near the same quantity and the good news is its still selling! Good call to the original poster.

[The_Noble_Cause]

My hope is that the commercial success of Revelation allows Journey to follow it up with an album with some more artistic success.

Has it occured to you that the extraordinary response to Revelation is because it is an artistic success? And that at long last Journey have a frontman the management, the media, the retailers and the fans can believe in?

It's funny...for years Augeri line-up fans were bemoaning the lack of success and blamed it all on the record company and on the market...saying that 'it isn't 1983 you know'....that it was impossible for a band like Journey to have a hit record anymore.....and generally making every excuse under the sun for the underwhelming reaction to Arrival, Red 13 and Generations.

The fact is...the band just weren't cutting it. And as for this claim that Arrival was more innovative than Revelation...oh please...both records are total 80s pastiches with not a hint of originality. The difference is that Journey now are doing the same old thing much much better than they have done in over a decade.

For waay too many reasons then I care to re-count, this is a total oversimplification of why the Augeri-era failed commercially.

Also, though not a principal factor, it's worth pointing out that Arnel had the luxury of recording an album at first bat.
By the time Augeri recorded a full album, his voice was already on the decline.

[JohnH]

I know I'm in the minority here, but I like Generations alot. There's stuff on there better than Revelation and overall it rocks harder. I like Neal's song and Ross's and Jon's too. I just pulled it out yesterday and listened to the whole thing for the first time in awhile. I need to add it to the list for any long car trips.

[Matthew]

For waay too many reasons then I care to re-count, this is a total oversimplification of why the Augeri-era failed commercially.

Also, though not a principal factor, it's worth pointing out that Arnel had the luxury of recording an album at first bat.
By the time Augeri recorded a full album, his voice was already on the decline.

And to be fair to Augeri he did come into the band at tough time......immediately after Perry's departure with most of the fan base in a state of outrage. Most classic Journey die-hards are pretty burnt out on that issue now so Arnel is having an easy time of it.

But I'm not sure it would have make any difference to the eventual outcome of this era of the band had Arrival been recorded in 1998. Firstly...Augeri's voice sounds much the same on "Remember Me" as it does on any of the songs on Arrival three years later and also his best performances - I think - are on Generations ("The Place In Your Heart", etc).

And second...it's not just a question of the voice. It's the look or the vibe or charisma- or whatever that intangible quality is that makes someone a star. I know you felt he had that but a significant section of the fanbase who were still interested didn't and more importantly the management and the media didn't either.

[Vladan]

Simple fact of the matter.

Red 13 = pure shit.

Generations = good, as an album, but as a Journey release? its below their standards, it's as simple as that.

[The_Noble_Cause]

And second...it's not just a question of the voice. It's the look or the vibe or charisma- or whatever that intangible quality is that makes someone a star. I know you felt he had that but a significant section of the fanbase who were still interested didn't and more importantly the management and the media didn't either.

I'll invoke the Lawrence Kasdan rule again pertaining to what makes a success a success: "nobody knows anything."
I'm not sure how you can talk about such matters with clinical stone-cold certainty.
My personal gut feeling is the majority of buyers of "Revelation" probably weren't even aware of Arrival's existence (for whatever reason).
I really don't view the success of "Revelation" as a personal referendum on whether or not Steve Augeri had some elusive superstar X-chromosome.

As for your assertion that the media is somehow more embracing of Arnel over SA, that's just plain stupid.
Firstly, the media are not a block entity with a shared hive mind and secondly, from my standing, the Pineda-era has recieved less conventional media coverage than Augeri.
The Augeri rollout included Behind-the-Music, Blind Date, Access Hollywood, Direct TV, and CBS Early Show.
This leads me to consider that Arnel's success is quite possibly due to something else.
Perhaps the 80's renaissance in the zeitgeist, or the omnipresence of Wmart, or being packaged with the Perry dozen - perhaps a confluence of all three.

[Vladan]

As for your assertion that the media is somehow more embracing of Arnel over SA, that's just plain stupid.
Firstly, the media are not a block entity with a shared hive mind and secondly, from my standing, the Pineda-era has recieved less conventional media coverage than Augeri.
The Augeri rollout included Behind-the-Music, Blind Date, Access Hollywood, Direct TV, and CBS Early Show.
This leads me to consider that Arnel's success is quite possibly due to something else.
Perhaps the 80's renaissance in the zeitgeist, or the omnipresence of Wmart, or being packaged with the Perry dozen - perhaps a confluence of all three.

Oh I agree, Steve Augeri was a lot more popular! alot more! and not just the die hards, but the woman! they loved the man, he had a huge fanbase, and not because of his voice, but because of his red leather pants!, it's true though. Steve Augeri just looked better, he was more pleasing on the eyes than probably any Journey frontman. That alone is enough. He was around for a lot longer as well, so give arnel another 6 or so more years, but Arnel will never be considerd "sexy", not like Augeri or Perry were. Arnel is only new with the band, and I feel he joined this band probably a good 10 years too late.

[Matthew]

[
I'll invoke the Lawrence Kasdan rule again pertaining to what makes a success a success: "nobody knows anything."
I'm not sure how you can talk about such matters with clinical stone-cold certainty.

The Kasdan rule is definitely true when it comes to predicting success. But I do think you can get a reasonable sense of what went wrong in hindsight. Not always but sometimes. I take your point though....it's all just speculation and guess-work.

My personal gut feeling is the majority of buyers of "Revelation" probably weren't even aware of Arrival's existence (for whatever reason).
I really don't view the success of "Revelation" as a personal referendum on whether or not Steve Augeri had some elusive superstar X-chromosome.

Yes...maybe you're right...I'm just so longing to indulge in a little schadenfreude about it all. Maybe I ought to try and be a little more gracious....it's hard though....

As for your assertion that the media is somehow more embracing of Arnel over SA, that's just plain stupid.
Firstly, the media are not a block entity with a shared hive mind and secondly, from my standing, the Pineda-era has recieved less conventional media coverage than Augeri.
The Augeri rollout included Behind-the-Music, Blind Date, Access Hollywood, Direct TV, and CBS Early Show.

But did anyone come out an endorse the Augeri line-up with the same enthusiasm of Ellen DeGeneres, the NYT and Time? Maybe they did - but I have no memory of any mainstream media personality or organisation really getting behind Augeri like they have with Arnel.

Plus Arnel has the advantage of the 'discovered on You Tube' hook....plus a dramatic and heart-warming and - dare I say it? - Journeyesque triumph-over-adversity angle as well.

Also - as we know - the BTM did Augeri absolutely no favours given that it gave us " the "Steve Perry with a perm" line....

This leads me to consider that Arnel's success is quite possibly due to something else.
Perhaps the 80's renaissance in the zeitgeist, or the omnipresence of Wmart, or being packaged with the Perry dozen - perhaps a confluence of all three.

That's a pretty convincing point actually. But I still don't think they negate or exclude the arrival of Arnel as a significant contributing factor as well....

[Red13JoePa]

My personal gut feeling is the majority of buyers of "Revelation" probably weren't even aware of Arrival's existence (for whatever reason).

DEFINATELY.
There are a ton of people, I think, who think this is the first album since the '80s. Or least since TBF.

[Centaure]

Simple fact of the matter.

Red 13 = pure shit.

Generations = good, as an album, but as a Journey release? its below their standards, it's as simple as that.

They delibertly tried something different, because that is what they like now. Read Ross' interview. From a musician point of view, the songs on Red 13 are for more interesting than almost everything on Revelation.

[jrnyman28]

Simple fact of the matter.

Red 13 = pure shit.

Generations = good, as an album, but as a Journey release? its below their standards, it's as simple as that.

They delibertly tried something different, because that is what they like now. Read Ross' interview. From a musician point of view, the songs on Red 13 are for more interesting than almost everything on Revelation.

I LOVE Red13 still to this day. Once I got over the shock of the production/mix I fell in love with it. This is what I wanted freom Journey. You had a majestic ballad that was NOT your lovey-dovey saccharine-sweet typical Jon Cain lyric, you had a pretty standard sounding Journey song, a slightly progressive rocker and a straight-ahead slightly blues rocker.

After reading what Kevin Shirley said about 'directing' the band play things certain ways, and hearing that Neal went into this with an open mind and let KS 'direct', I think Generations could have been MUCH MUCH better had they received that same treatment. The band lost focus on Generations. But it still has solid momentsa. And I still think if the band had been able to release those songs with Jon's, Ross' and Neal's vocals as B-sides or bonus tracks they would have been far more appreciated. Instead, those songs destroy the flow and focus of the disc.

[The_Noble_Cause]

But did anyone come out an endorse the Augeri line-up with the same enthusiasm of Ellen DeGeneres, the NYT and Time? Maybe they did - but I have no memory of any mainstream media personality or organisation really getting behind Augeri like they have with Arnel.

As if all that attention just happened to fall into the band's lap?
I think your forgetting that the Waltons a.k.a the richest family in America are bankrolling this cd.
Since when did the NYTimes ever give Journey some love???
Also, lets never underestimate the power of Azoff.
In relaunching the band, a co-ordinated deluge of publicity was to be expected.

As for Augeri, his debut Journey cd was leaked by someone on the inside.
Plus, I have it on good word that Kalodner was against choosing him.
Were there industry forces working against him? Possibly.
But he also got his fair share of positive press, too.

Plus Arnel has the advantage of the 'discovered on You Tube' hook....plus a dramatic and heart-warming and - dare I say it? - Journeyesque triumph-over-adversity angle as well.

Augeri was also the same variation on the trite poor little matchstick girl story. Meaningless.

[sandiglam]

I'll say this: I LOVE the new cd. It's amazing in my opinion. Although I prefer Arnel as a vocalist over Augieri, I think the Arrival cd is (don't hate me for this) the best Journey cd there has ever been -- even better than any of the Perry releases. There has been a lot of discussion here about why the new cd is having more commercial success than Arrival did. I think a lot of the points have been well-made.

At the same time, and if someone mentioned this and I missed it, please forgive me -- I think that one contributor to this is that there is less of an anti-hair band stigma in 2008 than there was in 2001. Not that Journey is, or ever was, a hair band, and not that hair bands are again ruling the airwaves. Rather, we are simply at a point that people in general are not chastized for listening to 80's era bands like they once were. I'm a high school teacher in my mid-30's, and when I started teaching, kids laughed when I told them I loved Poison and Warrant. Today, my high school students wear Poison tshirts to school, and view bands like Journey as "the cool music their parents listen to." There's definitely a perception today that 80's era bands are cool that did not exist in 2001. I think we can probably thank VH1 Classic for some of that.

To support this, look at it from this perspective -- Bret Michaels new solo cd is a top 40 album on the Billboard charts. That alone speaks volumes, since the last real Poison cd (I don't count Poison'd as a real release), Hollyweird in 2001, sold 30,000+ units. If that cd was put out today, it would sell ten times that.

By the way, does anyone know how many units Arrival sold total?

Sandiglam

[marco17]

A small, but potentially significant point is that there are a lot more avenues for media attention via the Internet these days than even when Augeri joined the group. Just look at how the Internet has developed since then. I mean things like YouTube weren't around yet or if they were, they were in their infancy.

[jrnyman28]

By the way, does anyone know how many units Arrival sold total?

Sandiglam

250-300,000

[Matthew]

As if all that attention just happened to fall into the band's lap?
I think your forgetting that the Waltons a.k.a the richest family in America are bankrolling this cd.
Since when did the NYTimes ever give Journey some love???
Also, lets never underestimate the power of Azoff.
In relaunching the band, a co-ordinated deluge of publicity was to be expected.

If Azoff is so all-powerful and Journey's current success mainly just down to his payola and contacts....how come Journey failed so miserably for so many years while he was manager of the band?

As for Augeri, his debut Journey cd was leaked by someone on the inside.
Plus, I have it on good word that Kalodner was against choosing him.
Were there industry forces working against him? Possibly.

This takes the whole paranoid victim mentality to a whole new level. I've heard Sony being blamed for the mediocre quality of much of the song-writing on the album...for not promoting the album well enough....and now I hear there was plot against Augeri from the inside.

As for Kalodner...why do you think he might have been against choosing him?

Augeri was also the same variation on the trite poor little matchstick girl story. Meaningless.

Augeri worked in a shop. Then he didn't. I'm not sure that ever gave the Journey PR people as much to work with as Arnel's story did.....

[lights1961]

Biggest issue about arrival and why it had no success besides napster...is Augeri had the task to follow Perry... and the band could not live up to the pressure---but this time around you have the YOU TUBE STORY... and that is it... its like the media could care less of the band... its all about where did they find Arnel, the latest craze your tube...
that part i hate--- Arnel is a GREAT story but the YOU TUBE part sucks.. just my two cents...

BTW STATE OF GRACE is top 5 most under rated journey tunes. any of you heard it live... its killer. I would love to see
arnel try it during the next few years---if there is a next few years.



Rick

[Red13JoePa]

BTW STATE OF GRACE is top 5 most under rated journey tunes. any of you heard it live... its killer. I would love to see
arnel try it during the next few years---if there is a next few years.

Agreed.
Christ, they were OPENING that tour with State Of Grace, it is a killer track. The Time also had a prominent place in that setlist, deservedly so.

I still await the debut of the most traditional Journey tune on it, I Can Breathe, would love to see what Valory would do with that bass (especially the bass intro) live. With the arrangement and instrumentation I Can Breathe almost favors a mini Don't Stop Believing.

[Since 78]

Red 13 is one of Journeys best IMO, is it just me or does I Can Breath have an Old Chicago Style sound to it?

[Red13JoePa]

I Can Breathe's been kicking a lot of my ass anymore....Whatever Neal's doing on the solo, with maybe some kind of feedback with maybe pedal steel?

Terrific playing. Probably Schon/Cain's most lush, richest production on the EP. We've heard that though recorded during the Red13 sessions it was written during Arrival, I wonder if it had actually been demoed up at that time or if the final Red13 version a year later is the only full on take.

[sandiglam]

I'm surprised Arrival even sold that many copies...

I do agree that it's tough to imagine the first Journey cd post-Perry, but they pulled it off. It's a far better album than Trial By Fire, and while I read here several criticisms of the songwriting, I believe the songwriting on Arrival is the best the band has ever produced. From "Higher Place", which has possibly the best up tempo chorus of any Journey song ever, to "To Be Alive Again", which I believe to be one of the three or four best Journey songs ever, to the multitude of brilliant ballads on the disc, it's amazing from front to back...

Love it,
Sandi

[The_Noble_Cause]

If Azoff is so all-powerful and Journey's current success mainly just down to his payola and contacts....how come Journey failed so miserably for so many years while he was manager of the band?

Augeri's voice crapped out pretty early on.
They stood more to gain by not promoting the lineup, and leaving concertgoers to their memories of the past.

This takes the whole paranoid victim mentality to a whole new level. I've heard Sony being blamed for the mediocre quality of much of the song-writing on the album...for not promoting the album well enough....and now I hear there was plot against Augeri from the inside.

I thought I read that in an interview here on MR.com on the topic of the industry and leaks.
I can't find it anymore, so I am going to have to drop it.

However, considering Neal's allegations that Sony promised to promote FTLOSM to lure Perry back for TBF, it's really not all that unlikely.

As for Kalodner...why do you think he might have been against choosing him?

'Cuz he wasn't the best choice.

Augeri worked in a shop. Then he didn't. I'm not sure that ever gave the Journey PR people as much to work with as Arnel's story did.....

Ok, he didn't work in a shop...
That aside, your downplaying of the overt similarities makes me question (again) if you were following the band thru the Augeri-era.
It was the same PR storyline - an unknown singer plagued with comparisons to Steve Perry all his life is contacted by Neal out of the blue, and is given a shot at stardom.
Pineda is even recounting the same ""at first i couldn't believe it was really Neal" dumbfucked reaction that Augeri had.
The only difference is Arnel was contacted via email and not a phone call.

[Matthew]

Augeri's voice crapped out pretty early on.
They stood more to gain by not promoting the lineup, and leaving concertgoers to their memories of the past.

They stood more to gain by going the nostalgic route...because Augeri's voice crapped out? Is this the point you're making? If so, I'm not sure it makes any sense....

'Cuz he wasn't the best choice.

Monker dodged this question when I asked him...but why would Chalfant (who I know you think would have been the best choice) have represented a break away from the 'legacy sound'? Wouldn't he too be seen as just another Perry knock-off?

Ok, he didn't work in a shop...

Okay..he was a carpenter for a well-known retail chain. That hardly sexes it up much though does it?

That aside, your downplaying of the overt similarities makes me question (again) if you were following the band thru the Augeri-era.

Do I need to send you my old ticket stub from that miserable night in Edinburgh?

It was the same PR storyline - an unknown singer plagued with comparisons to Steve Perry all his life is contacted by Neal out of the blue, and is given a shot at stardom.
Pineda is even recounting the same ""at first i couldn't believe it was really Neal" dumbfucked reaction that Augeri had.
The only difference is Arnel was contacted via email and not a phone call.

Correct me if I'm wrong...but Augeri wasn't abandoned by his family at the age of twelve. He didnt have to leave school and make a living selling bits of old rubbish. He didn't sleep rough on a wooden bench outside a relative's house "waiting and watching while his relatives ate breakfast in the mornings, hoping some food would be left over for him to eat."

I'm welling up just typing this out....

No...all Augeri had to endure and overcome was the lukewarm reception given to a couple of middle-ranking AOR albums and a three year break from the industry. Hardly the stuff of legend...

And - I have to question whether you're paying much attention to the recent press coverage at all - but the 'discovered on You Tube' pitch has been going down a storm. Much more catchy than the Augeri story which changed all the time in any case...one minute it was Neal Schon hearing a Tall Stories CD in his car and thinking it was one of his old Journey demos...the next it was Jonathan Cain's wife who dug out the CD at home. The pitch was all over the place...

[DrFU]

Biggest issue about arrival and why it had no success besides napster...is Augeri had the task to follow Perry... and the band could not live up to the pressure---but this time around you have the YOU TUBE STORY... and that is it... its like the media could care less of the band... its all about where did they find Arnel, the latest craze your tube...
that part i hate--- Arnel is a GREAT story but the YOU TUBE part sucks.. just my two cents...

BTW STATE OF GRACE is top 5 most under rated journey tunes. any of you heard it live... its killer. I would love to see
arnel try it during the next few years---if there is a next few years.



Rick

The music scene has also changed significantly in general since Arrival and Red 13 were released. We're way over grunge worship, boy bands and pop tarts have become passe, classic rock is dominating summer tour season, several older bands have had new music chart in the past 3 years, Itunes is thriving, CD sales are in a death spiral, Wally World is in the music bidness in a big way...

[FishinMagician]

I know I'm in the minority here, but I like Generations alot. There's stuff on there better than Revelation and overall it rocks harder. I like Neal's song and Ross's and Jon's too. I just pulled it out yesterday and listened to the whole thing for the first time in awhile. I need to add it to the list for any long car trips.

I agree with all of that. i never understood why people don't like it. granted the production isnt great, it is as good if not better than revelation. you can actually hear the guitar. i think it is because most people can't handle hearing songs that rock and use different chord inversions, and have other members singing besides SP or sound-alikes. i know She Flies Alone sucks, but it sucks equally as bad as After All these Years. i dont see why people orgasm over that song but hate butterfly...

[conversationpc]

I know I'm in the minority here, but I like Generations alot. There's stuff on there better than Revelation and overall it rocks harder. I like Neal's song and Ross's and Jon's too. I just pulled it out yesterday and listened to the whole thing for the first time in awhile. I need to add it to the list for any long car trips.

I agree with all of that. i never understood why people don't like it. granted the production isnt great, it is as good if not better than revelation. you can actually hear the guitar. i think it is because most people can't handle hearing songs that rock and use different chord inversions, and have other members singing besides SP or sound-alikes. i know She Flies Alone sucks, but it sucks equally as bad as After All these Years. i dont see why people orgasm over that song but hate butterfly...

I don't think there's a terrible song on the whole album but I wouldn't say it's a great album. Neal and Ross's tune just don't sound like Journey and should've been left off, in my opinion.

[The_Noble_Cause]

They stood more to gain by going the nostalgic route...because Augeri's voice crapped out? Is this the point you're making? If so, I'm not sure it makes any sense....

Perhaps if you would lay down your arms and stop looking at every response in combative binary terms of Augeri vs. Arnel, (a battle being waged only in your head), you could see things more clearly.
Azoff wasn't going to pull out all the stops for the Augeri-era.
Not when they had no new product to promote, and a singer whose performances were unpredictable (at best).

Monker dodged this question when I asked him...but why would Chalfant (who I know you think would have been the best choice) have represented a break away from the 'legacy sound'? Wouldn't he too be seen as just another Perry knock-off?

Chalfant is much more accomplished than Arnel.
His writing credits with “The Storm” and “Two Fires” also prove he’s a natural fit for the genre.
He’s also never gone out of his way to mimic Perryisms like Arnel. He’s just a soaring tenor with a little bit of Chicago grit.
As if that weren’t enough, he was also anointed by band creator, Herbie Herbert, as the chosen one to succeed Perry.

I never said he would be a break from the legacy sound.

Do I need to send you my old ticket stub from that wretched night in Edinburgh?

That doesn’t mean anything.
Your facts about the Augeri-era are frequently wrong.

Most fans have lived through this torrent of hype and see it for what it is.
We saw the emerging stages of this press coverage with Jeff just the other year.
It’s not a slight on Arnel that fans like Monker and I just can’t bring ourselves to give a fuck anymore.

Correct me if I'm wrong...but Augeri wasn't abandoned by his family at the age of twelve. He didnt have to leave school and make a living selling bits of old rubbish. He didn't sleep rough on a wooden bench outside a relative's house "waiting and watching while his relatives ate breakfast in the mornings, hoping some food would be left over for him to eat."

That’s trivial.
The main PR narrative is Journey rescued another down-and-out Perry doppelganger and gave him a shot at fame. Same difference.

I'm welling up just typing this out....

No...all Augeri had to endure and overcome was the lukewarm reception given to a couple of middle-ranking AOR albums and a three year break from the industry. Hardly the stuff of legend...

So Arnel is now the stuff of legend, eh? Too funny.

And - I have to question whether you're paying much attention to the recent press coverage at all - but the 'discovered on You Tube' pitch has been going down a storm. Much more catchy than the Augeri story which changed all the time in any case...one minute it was Neal Schon hearing a Tall Stories CD in his car and thinking it was one of his old Journey demos...the next it was Jonathan Cain's wife who dug out the CD at home. The pitch was all over the place...

We have also heard that it was Neal’s gf who actually discovered Arnel.

You are soo vested in this band that you are willing to turn anything into an Arnel vs. Augeri argument.
Including, who’s “rags to riches” story is more personally moving.
Arnel could be gone in a month.
None of this matters.