The Revelation Chart/Sales Thread

[Barb]

the journey show in cincinnati, is the best selling show they have right now, selling about 400 tickets a week, this show will be close to a sell out by sept.

Shoreline in Mt. View, CA only had only lawn seats left as of Saturday after being on sale only 6 days. I am stunned!

[The_Noble_Cause]

TNC - I don't doubt that Schon had a dream of taking Journey beyond the achievements of his partnership with Perry and I don't doubt that Cain too still had high-standards regarding the Journey name (which he clearly displayed in interviews during the late 1980s). But that 1997 playbook was thrown out the moment they hired Augeri. I am - genuinely - amazed that you can't see this.

It's the way the band has openly courted nostalgia that has turned me off.
Neal Schon of 1998 wouldn't have been caught dead groveling about a return to the "legacy sound."

Again - I just can't believe you're coming around to this possibility only now. Surely anyone who has been even vaguely following this band knows that the purity of whatever dream he had eleven years ago has become a little sullied....

I never denied that the Augeri-era set lists were largely comprised of the hits, but what 80's act isn't?
That doesn't mean the band now has to betray their entire raison d'etre for reforming.

And now we Journey fans can enjoy the critical respect the band are finally receiving with Arnel in the band. How would have thought that the New York Times and Time Magazine would become friends of the band?

I am getting the impression that you weren't around during the Augeri era.
This is just PR.

No - the doubters and critics were on to Journey the moment Augeri was hired. That's why - if you look through the cuttings of his time in the band - words like "clone" and "tribute" and "Journey lite" are never far away. Rightly or wrongly the story has radically changed now....

Nothing has changed.
Pull someone off the street and ask them about Journey's new lead singer.
If you're fortunate enough to find someone who knows just what it is you're talking about, the words that likely follow will be:

"I know! Can you believe it? He sounds just like Steve Perry!!!"

The trusty old 'blame the industry not the frontman' line of defence. Strange how the industry seems to be working in Journey's interests just fine post-Augeri's departure....

Yea, amazing what doors open when you have a well-heeled financier again, right?
Haven't seen this much publicity for the guys since, oh I dunno, Sony pushed "Arrival."

And nor do they on Revelation. I'd say about half the entire album doesn't sound like Perry era Journey. Meatloaf...Survivor...Diane Warren...maybe...but not Journey.

What the album sounds like is beyond the point.
Perception is reality, and right now the band have resigned themselves to being defined as little more than King Perry's fiddlers three.
Worse yet, they have capitalized on it.
There was a time not so long ago, when touring without Perry was viewed as not being financially viable.
How sad then, for the band to climb and scrape to get where they are, only to dart back in his shadow to start all over again.

[Matthew]

It's the way the band has openly courted nostalgia that has turned me off.
Neal Schon of 1998 wouldn't have been caught dead groveling about a return to the "legacy sound."

TNC - I'm puzzled why you are attaching such importance to Cain's remarks about returning to the 'legacy sound'. You dismiss the NYT and Time articles as "just PR". Well, Cain's comments were just PR too. Maybe it wasn't the spin or the story that pleases you but we all know full well that no matter what Schon and Cain said in the press in the 1990s they have been blatantly cashing in on the Perry era for over a decade. At least the band are being honest now. Would you rather they returned to the slippery ways which came to characterize the Augeri era in the end?

I never denied that the Augeri-era set lists were largely comprised of the hits, but what 80's act isn't?
That doesn't mean the band now has to betray their entire raison d'etre for reforming.

Again - I don't follow the logic. On the one hand you're defending the Augeri set-lists by saying: "Which 80s act doesn't play the old hits?" And with the pretty much identical setlists of the Arnel era you talk of 'betrayal'. And this point is clouded still further because you think the new album is "very, very strong"....

I am getting the impression that you weren't around during the Augeri era.

I travelled four hundred miles to see the worst rock concert I've ever been to with that guy behind the microphone. Believe me...I was around....

Nothing has changed.
Pull someone off the street and ask them about Journey's new lead singer.
If you're fortunate enough to find someone who knows just what it is you're talking about, the words that likely follow will be:

"I know! Can you believe it? He sounds just like Steve Perry!!!"

But this was my original point which you have taken issue with. Nothing has changed. The band are still trying to create the illusion Perry is in the band. Like they did throughout the Augeri years.

Yea, amazing what doors open when you have a well-heeled financier again, right?

Have you asked yourself why the well-heeled financier has decided to shell out now?

Haven't seen this much publicity for the guys since, oh I dunno, Sony pushed "Arrival."

And yet Augeri fans have been complaining for years that the reason he never made it was because Sony didn't promote the album properly. And what's more...just because a record company hypes an album it doesn't follow that it is met with real enthusiasm. But if you can show me - say - any glowing reviews from mainstream magazines or newspapers from 2001 then I'm happy to stand corrected.

What the album sounds like is beyond the point.
Perception is reality, and right now the band have resigned themselves to being defined as little more than King Perry's fiddlers three.
Worse yet, they have capitalized on it.

Again - you're placing the PR spin from last year above every other consideration, TNC. And the irony here is that the only track which sounds like a blatant Perry rip-off is Like A Sunshower....and this is the song you have been praising above all others right from the moment the record was released.

[The_Noble_Cause]

TNC - I'm puzzled why you are attaching such importance to Cain's remarks about returning to the 'legacy sound'. You dismiss the NYT and Time articles as "just PR". Well, Cain's comments were just PR too. Maybe it wasn't the spin or the story that pleases you but we all know full well that no matter what Schon and Cain said in the press in the 1990s they have been blatantly cashing in on the Perry era for over a decade. At least the band are being honest now. Would you rather they returned to the slippery ways which came to characterize the Augeri era in the end?

The embrace of the “legacy sound” amounts to a tacit admission that the band simply couldn’t cut it on their own.
If that’s truly the case, they should go do solo projects and drop the facade.
In 1998, there was at least an artifice of artistic integrity in their reason for reforming.
Whether their motives were sincere or not is irrelevant.

Again - I don't follow the logic. On the one hand you're defending the Augeri set-lists by saying: "Which 80s act doesn't play the old hits?" And with the pretty much identical setlists of the Arnel era you talk of 'betrayal'. And this point is clouded still further because you think the new album is "very, very strong"....

I didn’t say anything about Arnel’s set lists. It’s too early to even talk about that.

I travelled four hundred miles to see the worst rock concert I've ever been to with that guy behind the microphone. Believe me...I was around....

Ok. Then this shower of publicity should have a certain hollow ring of familiarity to it.

But this was my original point which you have taken issue with. Nothing has changed. The band are still trying to create the illusion Perry is in the band. Like they did throughout the Augeri years.

I don’t think they tried to create that illusion with Arnel. They haven’t shied away from Arnel as their new singer.
What they have done though, is give Perry’s voice pride-of-place over everything they have ever accomplished collectively.

Have you asked yourself why the well-heeled financier has decided to shell out now?

Because they have one of the best managers in the industry and a new lineup is being sold to the public.

And yet Augeri fans have been complaining for years that the reason he never made it was because Sony didn't promote the album properly.

I don’t know where you get this notion that all the buyers made a conscious decision to snub Augeri and buy Arnel.
Arnel is a nobody to the general masses, just like Augeri was in 1998.
It sounds to me like you need some sort of concrete post-facto vindication of Augeri’s shortcomings.
I’m sorry, no matter how many units “Revelation” continues to ship, we will never be sure just why "Arrival" failed.

And what's more...just because a record company hypes an album it doesn't follow that it is met with real enthusiasm. But if you can show me - say - any glowing reviews from mainstream magazines or newspapers from 2001 then I'm happy to stand corrected.

Entertainment Weekly panned Arrival, but at least they deemed it worthy of a review.
Time Magazine’s piece on Arnel seems to have been published partially in response to Revelation’s success (success begets success y’know?)

Again - you're placing the PR spin from last year above every other consideration, TNC. And the irony here is that the only track which sounds like a blatant Perry rip-off is Like A Sunshower....and this is the song you have been praising above all others right from the moment the record was released.

Am I not allowed to praise the album and call them sell out whores in the same breath?
Just because they have released an album of good material, doesn’t mean the shameless tactics through which they partially achieved that success are beyond reproach.

[The Sushi Hunter]

There are lots of Filipinos in the bay area so I'm not surprised the seats at Mt. View were sold out (except for the shitty lawn area.)

I went out today on my first day back from Japan and picked up two copies of the new Journey album. I picked them up at Wal-Mart in Mt. View. First I thought that they were sold out because all bands are in alphabetical order and there were only a few really old albums in the place where the Journey albums are. But then I looked up and around and saw a hand full of the new album units in a different location, on the "new releases" shelving. I got one for me and the other for a friend of mine who is now living in Texas but used to hang out with me in Cal-Jams back when I would sing with AMO Band.

I'll listen to it shortly, after I get a few things done around the house. But I am really excited to listen to it. I have to admit though that picking up the physical album did give me a weird feeling seeing Arnel on the cover. I have seen lots of the videos on YouTube and read lots of articles on the net, but never really placed my hands on a physical copy of anything until getting the albums at Wal-Mart tonight. Just really moved me remembering Arnel back with AMO Band in the Philippines when we were mearly teenagers back then, and now here is his work right in my hands 20 years later back in the U.S. This experience impacted my mood tonight.

[Matthew]

The embrace of the “legacy sound” amounts to a tacit admission that the band simply couldn’t cut it on their own.

But these comments were directly to do with the departure of JSS. Cain was talking about an eight month period when Journey looked as though they were moving away from the 'legacy sound' for the very first time. Again - I took this to mean that the band were returning to business as usual rather than announcing some entirely new strategy.

It is true though that it was the first time since 1989 that Cain has admitted that Perry's voice is central to the identity of the band.

If that’s truly the case, they should go do solo projects and drop the facade.
In 1998, there was at least an artifice of artistic integrity in their reason for reforming.

But that's all it was. An artifice. And I think you knew that all along but were so badly wanting an authentic Journey back in action that you bought into this delusion. When classic Journey die-hards and the Perry fanatics made the very same points you are making now (and were getting called lunatics in the process) you got into a defensive stance which you're still too proud to back down from. Am I wrong?

As for the band....in 2006 we saw how the determination to preserve "artifice" and "facade" had led to Journey's most shameful and corrupt period. So it still baffles me how you can date the 'betrayal of the Journey name' to Cain's interview last year or compain that the band are finally openly acknowledging what anyone with even a scintilla of common sense knew all along.

Whether their motives were sincere or not is irrelevant.

TNC - you keep using this debating device of declaring something is irrelevant and quickly moving on without explaining why it is irrelevant. Surely the 'sincerity' issue is entirely relevant to this conversation? Did the band genuinely believe it was leaving the Perry era behind and reinventing itself and writing honest, soulful music and achieving financial independence? Or did they shy away from all that right at the outset in 1998 and try to cling on to Perry's legacy as best they could even if it meant conning their own fans and writing half-assed, cynical music and playing ancient, nostalgic set-lists every night?

I didn’t say anything about Arnel’s set lists. It’s too early to even talk about that.

It's not too early. Journey are touring now so we have set-lists to compare. And if anything ...Journey's set-list now is less nostalgic than it was when I saw them with Augeri and JSS.

Ok. Then this shower of publicity should have a certain hollow ring of familiarity to it.

No - because I'm seeing genuine enthusiasm being reflected back from the media. I didn't see that at any point during the Augeri era.

I don’t think they tried to create that illusion with Arnel. They haven’t shied away from Arnel as their new singer.
What they have done though, is give Perry’s voice pride-of-place over everything they have ever accomplished collectively.

Well, take Perry's voice out of the equation and...what has the band achieved collectively? Five albums which flopped...and a sixth doing well mainly because it's attached to cover versions of the songs written with Perry.

Because they have one of the best managers in the industry and a new lineup is being sold to the public.

And this manager was in place throughout Augeri's time in the band. My question is...what was it that motivated Azoff again?

I don’t know where you get this notion that all the buyers made a conscious decision to snub Augeri and buy Arnel.
Arnel is a nobody to the general masses, just like Augeri was in 1998.

To the general masses yes...but to the relevant people in the industry - the management, the retailer, the media outlets - Arnel has inspired confidence.

It sounds to me like you need some sort of concrete post-facto vindication of Augeri’s shortcomings.

Maybe - but whenever I hear Augeri fans making the same arguments they argued against for so many years I can't help crowing about it in an annoying 'told you so' kind of way. I ought to be bigger about it all but I have spent too many hours of my life debating with some seriously slippery people during those dark years and I'm just trying to wrap the debate up once and for all in the Loons' favour.

Entertainment Weekly panned Arrival, but at least they deemed it worthy of a review.

Oh come on TNC...this is crumbs from the table. I can't believe you actually sound grateful for this miserable little PR moment.

Time Magazine’s piece on Arnel seems to have been published partially in response to Revelation’s success (success begets success y’know?)

But the New York Times gave it a glowing review before it charted....

Am I not allowed to praise the album and call them sell out whores in the same breath?

No...please go ahead....

[Monker]

Forget the spin...and look at what actually happened. Another soft rock album chock-full of ballads. And the old songs played in exactly the same way as they were in the 1980s. The 'rockiest' Journey album was - and still is - one from the Perry era: Frontiers.

You forget the spin. Arival is not 'chuck full of ballads'. It has as many mid-tempo and rockers as it does ballads. It was a good, balanced, album, IMO. I'm not saying it was the 'rockiest' album. I am not going to get into this argument again...because it is really stupid, out of date, irrelevent, and boils down to what you define as 'ballad'.

What do you mean by this Monker? The 2001 set is the same as it is now...give or take one or two new songs. What you're really asking is...when the band play "Higher Place" will you think it's bullshit? (The answer is 'yes'.

Then, if there is no real difference and you are going to call the Augeri years live set 'bullshit', then you should be calling todays set bullshit as well. That is what I am saying. I couldn't care less what they perform today...but don't be a hypocrit when you critique the olden days.

This wasn't the case at all at the London show last year.

I don't give a damn what you saw. TNC asked me a question and I repeated my opinion. Journey looked like amatures compared to DL.

by March 2007 Journey were on peak form and for the very first time looked as though they were experimenting with a break away from the 'legacy sound'. You're right - they didn't sound like Perry era Journey but this was a good thing.

I disagree. The more JSS toured, the more early songs they stuck in the set, like "Opened the Door", and he sounded MORE like Perry - not less.

But here we have classic Monker. Bitching at the band for not sounding like Journey enough. And then disowning them for trying to emulate their most familiar style.

I didn't say they didn't sound Journey enough. I am saying the concert I saw did not seem like a Journey concert. I wouldn't say I am "disowning" them. I am saying I just don't care much any more what they do. I was starting to feel that way even while Augeri was still in the band.

[Monker]

But that's all it was. An artifice. And I think you knew that all along but were so badly wanting an authentic Journey back in action that you bought into this delusion. When classic Journey die-hards and the Perry fanatics made the very same points you are making now (and were getting called lunatics in the process) you got into a defensive stance which you're still too proud to back down from. Am I wrong?

The point is that Neal and the band are the ones who have changed and now prop Perry's sound above anything the band can create on their own. They have said it in their actions by hiring a tribute singer, and they have directly said it with their "legacy sound" comments.

TNC - you keep using this debating device of declaring something is irrelevant and quickly moving on without explaining why it is irrelevant. Surely the 'sincerity' issue is entirely relevant to this conversation? Did the band genuinely believe it was leaving the Perry era behind and reinventing itself and writing honest, soulful music and achieving financial independence? Or did they shy away from all that right at the outset in 1998 and try to cling on to Perry's legacy as best they could even if it meant conning their own fans and writing half-assed, cynical music and playing ancient, nostalgic set-lists every night?

And, if you believe it was so wrong back then, why are you not saying it is wrong today. Your opinion seems to be, "Ok, they were full of shit back then. At least they are honest about it now, so it's OK that they have hired a Perry clone and living off the legacy." To me, that kinda logic deserves it's own class of loon.

If it were 1998, you would be throwing tantrums, along with 90% of the rest of Journey's fans.

It's not too early. Journey are touring now so we have set-lists to compare. And if anything ...Journey's set-list now is less nostalgic than it was when I saw them with Augeri and JSS.

When the Arrival tour started, they were performing up to four songs from Arrival. You are going to have to wait 8yrs before you start comparing them to the tour with JSS.

Well, take Perry's voice out of the equation and...what has the band achieved collectively? Five albums which flopped...and a sixth doing well mainly because it's attached to cover versions of the songs written with Perry.

Prove it. Show me ANY credible evidence that the covers CD had an impact on sales. I would bet the price had AT LEAST as much impact as any specific content.

Maybe - but whenever I hear Augeri fans making the same arguments they argued against for so many years I can't help crowing about it in an annoying 'told you so' kind of way. I ought to be bigger about it all but I have spent too many hours of my life debating with some seriously slippery people during those dark years and I'm just trying to wrap the debate up once and for all in the Loons' favour.

When the band hired Arnel, they did it for you.

[The_Noble_Cause]

But these comments were directly to do with the departure of JSS. Cain was talking about an eight month period when Journey looked as though they were moving away from the 'legacy sound' for the very first time. Again - I took this to mean that the band were returning to business as usual rather than announcing some entirely new strategy.

I really don’t think Jeff deviated so much from the "legacy sound" that press materials heralding a specific return to it was needed.
Also, the entire CBS piece made it seem as if Augeri and Jeff bore no sonic resemblance to Perry.
Which, of course, is a lie.
In fact, when Andrew did his superb piece on Journey in LA, Neal and others couldn’t stop gushing how much Jeff sounded like Perry.

The whole idea of returning to the “legacy sound” only makes sense if you buy into the revisionist history they are peddling.
Naturally, the diehards see right through it, but it was the band’s best chance for grabbing the largest swath of the preoccupied consuming public.

But that's all it was. An artifice. And I think you knew that all along but were so badly wanting an authentic Journey back in action that you bought into this delusion. When classic Journey die-hards and the Perry fanatics made the very same points you are making now (and were getting called lunatics in the process) you got into a defensive stance which you're still too proud to back down from. Am I wrong?

I’m just saying, in a complete reversal from before, the band has now given their legacy the short shrift.
The subjective Perry-centric view taken by Behind-the-Music, which Neal took issue with, has now been lovingly embraced.

As for the band....in 2006 we saw how the determination to preserve "artifice" and "facade" had led to Journey's most shameful and corrupt period. So it still baffles me how you can date the 'betrayal of the Journey name' to Cain's interview last year or compain that the band are finally openly acknowledging what anyone with even a scintilla of common sense knew all along.

Actually this band has jumped the shark on several occasions, and even earlier than TapeGate.
This isn’t the first time I’ve aired my views on this band fucking up.
I love how you’re so possessive and thin-skinned over the Arnel-era, as if anything has really changed,
Same crooks, different singer.

It's not too early. Journey are touring now so we have set-lists to compare. And if anything ...Journey's set-list now is less nostalgic than it was when I saw them with Augeri and JSS.

Ok. That’s a lie.
At the outset of both the “Arrival” and “Generations” tour several new tracks were thrown in the mix.
Not very different from the “Revelation” set lists I’ve seen posted.

No - because I'm seeing genuine enthusiasm being reflected back from the media. I didn't see that at any point during the Augeri era.

Based on what?
Ellen DeGeneres enthusiastically introducing them as she would any other guest?
Mark McEwen, of the CBS Morning Show, was pretty enthusiastic when he interviewed and introduced the band in 2001.
I had the privilege of spending a day with him last year.
I assure you, despite the band’s crappy performance, his enthusiasm was 100% genuine.

Well, take Perry's voice out of the equation and...what has the band achieved collectively? Five albums which flopped...and a sixth doing well mainly because it's attached to cover versions of the songs written with Perry.

The Perry-era is a part of what they achieved collectively.

And this manager was in place throughout Augeri's time in the band.

And when he was needed, like during the band’s launch with Arrival, he delivered in a fairly big way.

My question is...what was it that motivated Azoff again?

Launching a new lineup - I already answered this.
Even with Augeri’s crapped out voice, he still managed to get the lipped “Faith in the Heartland” video on VH1 classic.

To the general masses yes...but to the relevant people in the industry - the management, the retailer, the media outlets - Arnel has inspired confidence.

This claim has no basis in reality.
The Walmart deal was already in the cards before they even decided on Arnel.
Show me publicity money can’t buy…like, say, Brian May championing a singer on his personal blog.

Maybe - but whenever I hear Augeri fans making the same arguments they argued against for so many years I can't help crowing about it in an annoying 'told you so' kind of way. I ought to be bigger about it all but I have spent too many hours of my life debating with some seriously slippery people during those dark years and I'm just trying to wrap the debate up once and for all in the Loons' favour.

I don’t even know what you’re arguing to be perfectly honest.
Anyone who took issue during the Augeri-years, should have an even sharper axe to grind now.

Oh come on TNC...this is crumbs from the table. I can't believe you actually sound grateful for this miserable little PR moment.

Did I mention that Rolling Stone also reviewed Arrival?

But the New York Times gave it a glowing review before it charted....

Ok. Well that’s how advance copies work.
I’m not sure what the term is for the newspaper form of payola, but that’s what it sounds like to me.
Since when did the gray lady ever give a fuck about Journey?

[Rick]

But these comments were directly to do with the departure of JSS. Cain was talking about an eight month period when Journey looked as though they were moving away from the 'legacy sound' for the very first time. Again - I took this to mean that the band were returning to business as usual rather than announcing some entirely new strategy.

I really don’t think Jeff deviated so much from the "legacy sound" that press materials heralding a specific return to it was needed.
Also, the entire CBS piece made it seem as if Augeri and Jeff bore no sonic resemblance to Perry.
Which, of course, is a lie.
In fact, when Andrew did his superb piece on Journey in LA, Neal and others couldn’t stop gushing how much Jeff sounded like Perry.

The whole idea of returning to the “legacy sound” only makes sense if you buy into the revisionist history they are peddling.
Naturally, the diehards see right through it, but it was the band’s best chance for grabbing the largest swath of the preoccupied consuming public.

But that's all it was. An artifice. And I think you knew that all along but were so badly wanting an authentic Journey back in action that you bought into this delusion. When classic Journey die-hards and the Perry fanatics made the very same points you are making now (and were getting called lunatics in the process) you got into a defensive stance which you're still too proud to back down from. Am I wrong?

I’m just saying, in a complete reversal from before, the band has now given their legacy the short shrift.
The subjective Perry-centric view taken by Behind-the-Music, which Neal took issue with, has now been lovingly embraced.

As for the band....in 2006 we saw how the determination to preserve "artifice" and "facade" had led to Journey's most shameful and corrupt period. So it still baffles me how you can date the 'betrayal of the Journey name' to Cain's interview last year or compain that the band are finally openly acknowledging what anyone with even a scintilla of common sense knew all along.

Actually this band has jumped the shark on several occasions, and even earlier than TapeGate.
This isn’t the first time I’ve aired my views on this band fucking up.
I love how you’re so possessive and thin-skinned over the Arnel-era, as if anything has really changed,
Same crooks, different singer.

It's not too early. Journey are touring now so we have set-lists to compare. And if anything ...Journey's set-list now is less nostalgic than it was when I saw them with Augeri and JSS.

Ok. That’s a lie.
At the outset of both the “Arrival” and “Generations” tour several new tracks were thrown in the mix.
Not very different from the “Revelation” set lists I’ve seen posted.

No - because I'm seeing genuine enthusiasm being reflected back from the media. I didn't see that at any point during the Augeri era.

Based on what?
Ellen DeGeneres enthusiastically introducing them as she would any other guest?
Mark McEwen, of the CBS Morning Show, was pretty enthusiastic when he interviewed and introduced the band in 2001.
I had the privilege of spending a day with him last year.
I assure you, despite the band’s crappy performance, his enthusiasm was 100% genuine.

Well, take Perry's voice out of the equation and...what has the band achieved collectively? Five albums which flopped...and a sixth doing well mainly because it's attached to cover versions of the songs written with Perry.

The Perry-era is a part of what they achieved collectively.

And this manager was in place throughout Augeri's time in the band.

And when he was needed, like during the band’s launch with Arrival, he delivered in a fairly big way.

My question is...what was it that motivated Azoff again?

Launching a new lineup - I already answered this.
Even with Augeri’s crapped out voice, he still managed to get the lipped “Faith in the Heartland” video on VH1 classic.

To the general masses yes...but to the relevant people in the industry - the management, the retailer, the media outlets - Arnel has inspired confidence.

This claim has no basis in reality.
The Walmart deal was already in the cards before they even decided on Arnel.
Show me publicity money can’t buy…like, say, Brian May championing a singer on his personal blog.

Maybe - but whenever I hear Augeri fans making the same arguments they argued against for so many years I can't help crowing about it in an annoying 'told you so' kind of way. I ought to be bigger about it all but I have spent too many hours of my life debating with some seriously slippery people during those dark years and I'm just trying to wrap the debate up once and for all in the Loons' favour.

I don’t even know what you’re arguing to be perfectly honest.
Anyone who took issue during the Augeri-years, should have an even sharper axe to grind now.

Oh come on TNC...this is crumbs from the table. I can't believe you actually sound grateful for this miserable little PR moment.

Did I mention that Rolling Stone also reviewed Arrival?

But the New York Times gave it a glowing review before it charted....

Ok. Well that’s how advance copies work.
I’m not sure what the term is for the newspaper form of payola, but that’s what it sounds like to me.
Since when did the gray lady ever give a fuck about Journey?

I think the band knew the people were going to want a reason behind why they were letting go Soto and one of them dreamed up the legacy sound excuse.

[80s man]

It mattered enough to you to post countless dire predictions about Journey's future.

You are correct...When JSS was in the band I did predict that a member would leave and Journey would not exist within five years. Four more to go.

And you Monker have been discussing Journey online for longer than any of us.

Irrelevant...especialy since I don't really 'discuss' Journey much any longer.

And yet you defended the band for doing exactly the same thing - but unsuccessfully - during the Augeri years.

Augeri is not a clone of Perry. Augeri was not cloning Perry's voice on stage before he joined the band. Augeri did not rerecord the 'classic' songs in the studio for release on album. When Augeri was hired the band did not go about saying they were going back to their 'legacy' sound that sold their back catalog. If they had done any of this, I would have been just as against it ias I am today. Journey, to me anyway, is not about nostalgicaly recreating the sounds of the past. That should be for Elvis impersonators, not Journey.

Augeri - got the job after Neal heard a tall stories song while driving and he thought for a second it was a Journey song he had forgotten about - this would suggest Augeri was hired because in the eyes of the band he was a sound-alike. i.e. clone.

[Matthew]

The point is that Neal and the band are the ones who have changed and now prop Perry's sound above anything the band can create on their own.

We can go around in circles about this forever, Monker. You think - bizarrely - that the Augeri years represented a break away from the Perry era and the hiring of Arnel represents a return to it. I can't see any difference whatsoever in the band's strategy over the last ten years. Except the eight months when JSS was in the band. That at least had moments where one genuinely thought...'this band is starting to sound different'.

They have said it in their actions by hiring a tribute singer, and they have directly said it with their "legacy sound" comments.

Arnel sang covers of songs by a host of AOR acts. He was never a Perry tribute act. And he's recorded more original material than Augeri ever did before he joined the band.

Also - had Journey hired Chalfant you would have been screaming in delight like a little girl on her birthday. Yet Chalfant released a whole ALBUM of Journey covers. So how come he isn't a 'tribute singer'?

And, if you believe it was so wrong back then, why are you not saying it is wrong today. Your opinion seems to be, "Ok, they were full of shit back then. At least they are honest about it now, so it's OK that they have hired a Perry clone and living off the legacy." To me, that kinda logic deserves it's own class of loon.

If it were 1998, you would be throwing tantrums, along with 90% of the rest of Journey's fans.

Absolutely. I've complained about Journey's unswerving Perry rip-off strategy for years now. And I still think the band are bogus and cynical without Perry in the band. But there's only so many years you can stew in resentment about the fortunes of some faded AOR band. Now I just think...it's not the real deal but I'll lighten up and enjoy it anyway.

What I find irritating though is old-timers like you who have defended the band milking Perry's legacy dry for nearly a decade and who have now suddenly switched sides with all the self-righteousness of a screaming Loon from the late 1990s.

, they were performing up to four songs from Arrival. You are going to have to wait 8yrs before you start comparing them to the tour with JSS.

Good point. We need to wait for at least a couple of tours to see how much value they really place on the new material compared to the old songs.

Prove it. Show me ANY credible evidence that the covers CD had an impact on sales. I would bet the price had AT LEAST as much impact as any specific content.

You're right. Who in the end knows why it's selling out of the store. But it wouldn't be IN the store in the first place without the Perry era classics as part of the package.

When the band hired Arnel, they did it for you.

No they didn't. The Loons only ever got excited about JSS because they thought it represented a departure rather than a rip-off. It was fans like you who wanted to see the status quo of the 'Journey sound' preserved at all costs. And for all your hostility toward Perry you can't actually countenance any variation to this sound which any idiot knows is primarily defined by Perry's voice in combination with Neal's guitar.

[jrnyman28]

And he's recorded more original material than Augeri ever did before he joined the band.

Must stop here. How many CDs has Arnel been on? I know of TWO. Same as Augeri. But I admit I don't know much else of Arnel's recording career pre-Journey.

[Matthew]

You are correct...When JSS was in the band I did predict that a member would leave and Journey would not exist within five years. Four more to go.

Hark at Monker and his crystal ball. He has forseeen that Journey might retire when Cain, Schon and Valory reach...er, retirement age.

[Matthew]

And he's recorded more original material than Augeri ever did before he joined the band.

Must stop here. How many CDs has Arnel been on? I know of TWO. Same as Augeri. But I admit I don't know much else of Arnel's recording career pre-Journey.

Happy to stand corrected, jrnyman28...mainly because my original point still stands : that Arnel was just as much of a genuine 'artist' as Augeri was before he joined Journey and he ought not to be entirely characterized by his time in an AOR covers band.

[jrnyman28]

Matthew, without being involved in this conversation, I would like to extend gratitude for the way you, Monker and TNC have all approached this "discussion". Well done on all parts!

[Red13JoePa]

You are correct...When JSS was in the band I did predict that a member would leave and Journey would not exist within five years. Four more to go.

Hark at Monker and his crystal ball. He has forseeen that Journey might retire when Cain, Schon and Valory reach...er, retirement age.

Guffaw

[Monker]

Augeri - got the job after Neal heard a tall stories song while driving and he thought for a second it was a Journey song he had forgotten about - this would suggest Augeri was hired because in the eyes of the band he was a sound-alike. i.e. clone.

Not completely true. He heard Tall Stories years earlier. It was also not just the voice, it was the entire "rocked up Journey" sound that got his attention. A 'clone' is not just a singer who can sing a Journey. A clone is somebody intentionaly copying the original. Augeri did not do that, Arnel did.

[Monker]

You are correct...When JSS was in the band I did predict that a member would leave and Journey would not exist within five years. Four more to go.

Hark at Monker and his crystal ball. He has forseeen that Journey might retire when Cain, Schon and Valory reach...er, retirement age.

Yes, they are no Rolling Stones, or the Who, or a host of other more iconic bands who performed, and are performing with members well into their 60's. As I have said before, Journey will never be in the same league as those bands.

[Monker]

Also - had Journey hired Chalfant you would have been screaming in delight like a little girl on her birthday. Yet Chalfant released a whole ALBUM of Journey covers. So how come he isn't a 'tribute singer'?

In 1995, yes, I was pretty much expecting Chalfant. In 1998, I was hoping they would go with him, but wasn't sure. That was well before any Journey covers album. In 2005-2008, I would never wish this band on Chalfant. That is just ridiculous.

What I find irritating though is old-timers like you who have defended the band milking Perry's legacy dry for nearly a decade and who have now suddenly switched sides with all the self-righteousness of a screaming Loon from the late 1990s.

First of all, it's not "Perry's legacy", it's Journey. I don't remember "Foolish Heart" or "Oh, Sherry" on the covers album, or being performed in concert.

Again, I am not switching sides, the band did.

Good point. We need to wait for at least a couple of tours to see how much value they really place on the new material compared to the old songs.

By the end of this tour, I doubt they will be performing more then two 'new' songs...that is what happened with Arrival.

You're right. Who in the end knows why it's selling out of the store. But it wouldn't be IN the store in the first place without the Perry era classics as part of the package.

Again, prove it. Show me Wal-Mart AND Frontiers sources who said they refused to sign this deal if Journey did not have a covers CD in the package. And, show me sources that said Journey looked elsewhere to release without the covers CD, but they were refused.

No they didn't. The Loons only ever got excited about JSS because they thought it represented a departure rather than a rip-off.

And, the more he sounded like Perry, they more they liked him. Like Frank said, they have a gang mentality...maybe they are the real Borg hackers.

It was fans like you who wanted to see the status quo of the 'Journey sound' preserved at all costs.

Not true. I have said from the beginning that they need to respect the past but they also need to continue to move forward. They will ALWAYS cover the old songs, But, they also need to move forward with new music. That stopped happening the last couple years with Augeri...I was getting critical about the band long before JSS joined.

And for all your hostility toward Perry you can't actually countenance any variation to this sound which any idiot knows is primarily defined by Perry's voice in combination with Neal's guitar.

...and, Jonathan's songwriting. Perry was only 1/3 of that - at best.

That is how it was up through the Frontiers tour, 25yrs ago, and only two albums. Get over it already. I can handle a change in the sound. What I do not like, however, is completely abandoning it, as they seemed to do with JSS, or completely trying to clone it - as they are now doing.

[Matthew]

In 1995, yes, I was pretty much expecting Chalfant. In 1998, I was hoping they would go with him, but wasn't sure. That was well before any Journey covers album. In 2005-2008, I would never wish this band on Chalfant. That is just ridiculous.

You wouldn't wish a band with a Top 5 Billboard album on a singer who has barely known success? A band who will be one of the top touring acts in the United States this summer on a guy who plays club gigs? Why not?

First of all, it's not "Perry's legacy", it's Journey. I don't remember "Foolish Heart" or "Oh, Sherry" on the covers album, or being performed in concert.

When Cain talked about Journey's 'legacy sound' last year you know full well he was referring to the vocals. In fact, that was exactly what you and TNC took exception to.

Again, I am not switching sides, the band did.

Your suspension of disbelief regarding the 1998-2001 era is extraordinary, Monker. You're like some apparatchik who can't let go of the ideology long after the party has been discredited and booted out of of office. Nothing I can say can shake your wide-eyed trust in the purity of Cain and Schon's motives during this time....

By the end of this tour, I doubt they will be performing more then two 'new' songs...that is what happened with Arrival.

I'll wager they do continue to play more than one or two. Firstly, Revelation is a hit album and Arrival wasn't...and second...having seen the new songs in concert my hunch is that they'll be immediate enough to hook in the impatient US audiences....

Again, prove it. Show me Wal-Mart AND Frontiers sources who said they refused to sign this deal if Journey did not have a covers CD in the package. And, show me sources that said Journey looked elsewhere to release without the covers CD, but they were refused.

I'm only talking about Walmart and not Frontiers. As we know...Frontiers will put out any old rubbish with the Journey name on it...covers or not. Perhaps Andrew can confirm what Walmart wanted when they devised this package with Azoff?

By the way...if it turns out that Walmart were prepared to back only new material then this will make a mockery of your argument that Journey are 'suddenly' living off their past and failing to move forward.

And, the more he sounded like Perry, they more they liked him.

And this wasn't the case with Augeri?

Not true. I have said from the beginning that they need to respect the past but they also need to continue to move forward. They will ALWAYS cover the old songs, But, they also need to move forward with new music. That stopped happening the last couple years with Augeri...I was getting critical about the band long before JSS joined.

Well, there is new music this year and it's selling well and attracting good media coverage. Yet you haven't got one good word to say about any of it....

...and, Jonathan's songwriting. Perry was only 1/3 of that - at best.

That is how it was up through the Frontiers tour, 25yrs ago, and only two albums. Get over it already. I can handle a change in the sound. What I do not like, however, is completely abandoning it, as they seemed to do with JSS, or completely trying to clone it - as they are now doing.

Monker - you and I have agreed on Cain's importance to this band many times before. But the basic Journey signature sound existed before he joined the band. Cain adapted to it and took it to the next level. And what do you mean by "two albums"? Even if you use the trio as the criteria for the Journey sound we're talking about four albums....

As for the cloning issue...in what ways is Revelation more of a clone album than Arrival is? Like a Sunshower is pretty blatant - I'll give you that - but other than that I'd say that this record does much the same thing as Arrival but only better....

[inaweofschon]

Pardon me but isn't this thread supposed to be about sales/chart position??

[MarcelJordan]

Pardon me but isn't this thread supposed to be about sales/chart position??

Its sure is. Now at 61% Journey is at 11th place this time with 32,514. Lets see if it can come up a bit by the time 100% is up!

[7 Wishes]

Yes, they are no Rolling Stones, or the Who, or a host of other more iconic bands who performed, and are performing with members well into their 60's. As I have said before, Journey will never be in the same league as those bands.

The current lineup has FAR more talent and passion than those old retreads do at this point. Neal will die with an axe in his hands, preferably in the 2050's, and onstage.

[Red13JoePa]

Both the Stones and The Who put out critically acclaimed (if "ONLY" gold-selling {so far}) albums in the last 3 years.

That said, much to my surprise and pride, Journey will top both A Bigger Bang and Endless Wire w/ Revelation,

[jrnyman28]

what do you mean by "two albums"? Even if you use the trio as the criteria for the Journey sound we're talking about four albums....

ROR was primarily a Perry/Cain CD with emphasis on Perry and TBF departed from the "legacy sound" being discussed.

[Monker]

Pardon me but isn't this thread supposed to be about sales/chart position??

Its sure is. Now at 61% Journey is at 11th place this time with 32,514. Lets see if it can come up a bit by the time 100% is up!

It won't.

The album is, quite frankly, not as good as some here (including Andrew) claim. After hearing it, nothing really stands out. It suffers from "Backlash" syndrome where all of the songs have a similar sound. The only two songs that are 'radio friendly' are already released, and "Never Walk Away" hasn't done much at all. They have one good song to ride on, "After All These Years", and that steam is already gone.

The remasters have as crappy recording/production quality as Generations. When I heard "SHHH loves to dance. SHHH loves to sings. SHHH does everything." I was suprised people actually like this crap. Whoever recorded those vocals, on both albums, needs to learn what they hell they are doing.

A tour will not make that much of a difference in sales. RADIO does....and this album is not going to make it on the radio any more then it already has.

[RocknRoll]

Is it the music or the vocalist?

[conversationpc]

The album is, quite frankly, not as good as some here (including Andrew) claim. After hearing it, nothing really stands out. It suffers from "Backlash" syndrome where all of the songs have a similar sound. The only two songs that are 'radio friendly' are already released, and "Never Walk Away" hasn't done much at all. They have one good song to ride on, "After All These Years", and that steam is already gone.

The album is, quite frankly, better than you claim. After hearing it, "Never Walk Away", "Change for the Better", and "Where Did I Lose Your Love" really stand out.

A tour will not make that much of a difference in sales. RADIO does....and this album is not going to make it on the radio any more then it already has.

Did you think it would even go gold? It looks like it will.

[MarcelJordan]

Pardon me but isn't this thread supposed to be about sales/chart position??

Its sure is. Now at 61% Journey is at 11th place this time with 32,514. Lets see if it can come up a bit by the time 100% is up!

It won't.

The album is, quite frankly, not as good as some here (including Andrew) claim. After hearing it, nothing really stands out. It suffers from "Backlash" syndrome where all of the songs have a similar sound. The only two songs that are 'radio friendly' are already released, and "Never Walk Away" hasn't done much at all. They have one good song to ride on, "After All These Years", and that steam is already gone.

The remasters have as crappy recording/production quality as Generations. When I heard "SHHH loves to dance. SHHH loves to sings. SHHH does everything." I was suprised people actually like this crap. Whoever recorded those vocals, on both albums, needs to learn what they hell they are doing.

A tour will not make that much of a difference in sales. RADIO does....and this album is not going to make it on the radio any more then it already has.

Yikes! Glad most others feel differently.