OT-Nugent comments right to bear arms

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Postby MrsPerry » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:39 pm

Saint John wrote:
MrsPerry wrote:As Charlton Heston said. "Out of my cold dead hands". I live in South Dakota, where i can carry not only concealed ( I have a permit) I can also carry openly without a permit. Give the GOOD people in DC a chance to defend their homes, families and property LEGALLY. And honestly, if someone wants to commit a gun crime, i dont think they really give a shit if the law says they can or not. But give the law abiding people some leverage against these shitstains.


(Standing Ovation) 8)



Thank you for the compliment SJ :)
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Postby MrsPerry » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:43 pm

Gin and Tonic Sky wrote:Good for Nuge, the good folks up in Michigan ought to elect him governor up there :!:


Nuge moved to Texas ;)
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Postby Michigan Girl » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:44 pm

MrsPerry wrote:
Gin and Tonic Sky wrote:Good for Nuge, the good folks up in Michigan ought to elect him governor up there :!:


Nuge moved to Texas ;)


He still has a residence in MI....northern!!! :wink:
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Postby MrsPerry » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:48 pm

Calbear94 wrote:Did you know that in Texas along the border, there are "ranchers" with scopes and high-powered rifles who shoot at unarmed, illegal aliens if they happen to cross over their property? They claim they are militia members defending the Constitution and laws of this country!



Exactly my point.


Same thing would apply to a burglar or a strange unfriendly dog in my yard.
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Postby MrsPerry » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:49 pm

Michigan Girl wrote:
MrsPerry wrote:
Gin and Tonic Sky wrote:Good for Nuge, the good folks up in Michigan ought to elect him governor up there :!:


Nuge moved to Texas ;)


He still has a residence in MI....northern!!! :wink:


I stand corrected. I should have known he would have kept property there ;)
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Postby Tito » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:53 pm

StocktontoMalone wrote:99% of these people in the NRA are hunters, OR gun collectors...the founding fathers weren't infallible. Nice to see these twits hanging on to an antiquated 'right'.

Nice argument though- keep falling back on that age-old argument that the people need to stockpile weapons to protect themselves from their own government.....

And I'll even grant you huntings guns, and certain handguns. But these semi-automatic/automatic weapons? If you are hunting with these, my friend, you aren't much of a hunter, nor a very smart collector.



Explain what a semi-automatic weapon is?
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Postby Tito » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:55 pm

Calbear94 wrote:To anyone who is against further gun restrictions on a state to state basis:

Would your opinion change if you or a member of your family became a victim of gun violence? Do you believe that having a gun locked in a drawer actually keeps you safe? Does it keep you safe in the workplace, which is increasingly prone to violence by disgruntled ex-employees? Does it keep your kids safe in the schools and neighborhoods? Are you feeling assured that guns are out of the reach of children in other families' homes and that those children are educated and loved enough to know that it is not right to hurt others?

Honestly, where is the deterrence that makes all of these risks worth it? Don't most burglars try to break in when noone is home? In cases, where the family is home, wouldn't an alarm and baseball bat give the homeowner the advantage in the darkness of their own home? And, what about road rage?


What world do you live in?
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Postby Tito » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:56 pm

Calbear94 wrote:Your historical facts are askew here. And if these inform your opinion regarding the right to bear arms, then perhaps you should re-evaluate.

Fact:

1.) Today's national guard is far more organized than the colonial militias ever were. In the revolution, the Continental Army superceded the militias from various colonies. Washington inherited many of these militia members and he himself remarked that they were drunken, slovenly, underarmed, and prone to desertion. They were undisciplined and unruly. Washington had to whip them into shape, which is remarkable because he had to keep them from passing out drunk and to maintain their equipment properly (i.e. not to barbecue meat on their bayonettes). Check out 1776 by David McCullogh.

2.) Jefferson saw through the sham of "virtual representation." He understood that the American colonists, were basically voiceless subjects of the British crown. Therefore, any laws or taxes passed upon the colonies were without the consent of the governed. The right to bear arms would later be included in the Bill of Rights, because some of the founding fathers (the Republicans) feared that the new republic (based on the Constitution) would fail and thus the people would again be subjected to a tyranny.

3.) The Constitution has worked for over 200 years. In terms of voting rights and personal freedoms, we are far more free today than perhaps even the founding fathers could have imagined. Poor white males (i.e. without property) could not vote in most states until the 1820s, Blacks could not vote until 1870 and women until 1920. Public school education is a right for all. The civil rights act of 1963 precludes discrimination on the basis of race, gender, creed, etc.

4.) We don't need armed individuals to defend us from foreign powers, either. We have a professional army made up our own citizens from all the states in the Union.

The report above shows the very real problem faced in Washington, DC. It is based on comprehensive statistical evidence, not liberal opinions. To just dismiss it out of hand shows irrational bias.

Lastly, let's not forget that the recent ruling by the Supreme Court (which is a conservative court now) struck down the handgun measure that was voted on and approved by the citizens of Washington, D.C. whom I am sure do not have to be convinced with reems of statistics. Their experiences living in the community shows just how out of control the handgun situation is. Least needing to be convinced are those that have lost relatives or friends due to gun violence.

It is almost contradictory to be supporting the right to bear arms, while opposing states' rights (OK, technically Washington D.C. is not a state, but its citizens deserve to have the same rights as other citizens in the fifty states, and besides this case is just a test case...Chicago's handgun restrictions are soon to be overturned). Jefferson saw states' rights, more than anything else, as the bulwark against a tyranny by our national government.

A rule by the majority is the bedrock of a democracy. If the people of a state, or U.S. territory, vote to restrict, but not deny guns altogether, then that should be their right. If you believe that the right to own guns is absolute, then let's do away with licensing requirements altogether and return to lawlessness, not unlike the wild west. By strictly interpreting the Constitution, the court is denying of the right of a democratic electorate to say that some guns are just not OK. If we had adhered strictly to the founding father's definition of a republican citizen, then only propertied, white males would enjoy full rights and freedoms granted under the Constitution and Bill of Rights. I for one would not want to live in a world like that, just like I wouldn't want to live in Washington, D.C. since the reversal of the handgun ban.


In short, every single one of your points is incorrect. Not to mention scary.
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Postby Rhiannon » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:57 pm

MrsPerry wrote:
Calbear94 wrote:Did you know that in Texas along the border, there are "ranchers" with scopes and high-powered rifles who shoot at unarmed, illegal aliens if they happen to cross over their property? They claim they are militia members defending the Constitution and laws of this country!



Exactly my point.


Same thing would apply to a burglar or a strange unfriendly dog in my yard.


My opinion is (and maybe it's just my raisings) that if it is your property, you have every right to defend it. You want to come into this country? Do so legally and have some respect for the ones already here. I couldn't shoot a dog though.
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Postby Tito » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:58 pm

Calbear94 wrote:To anyone who is against further gun restrictions on a state to state basis:

Would your opinion change if you or a member of your family became a victim of gun violence? Do you believe that having a gun locked in a drawer actually keeps you safe? Does it keep you safe in the workplace, which is increasingly prone to violence by disgruntled ex-employees? Does it keep your kids safe in the schools and neighborhoods? Are you feeling assured that guns are out of the reach of children in other families' homes and that those children are educated and loved enough to know that it is not right to hurt others?

Honestly, where is the deterrence that makes all of these risks worth it? Don't most burglars try to break in when noone is home? In cases, where the family is home, wouldn't an alarm and baseball bat give the homeowner the advantage in the darkness of their own home? And, what about road rage?


I would be pissed off because the government wouldn't allow them to have a gun to defend themselves. My opinion would not change it would only be strengthened.
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Postby conversationpc » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:58 pm

Calbear94 wrote:To anyone who is against further gun restrictions on a state to state basis:

Would your opinion change if you or a member of your family became a victim of gun violence?


No. Sad as it may be, having something happen to your family doesn't mean that other's rights should be curtailed.

Do you believe that having a gun locked in a drawer actually keeps you safe?


No. If I owned a firearm, I wouldn't keep it locked in a drawer in the first place.
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Postby Tito » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:00 am

Calbear94 wrote:The Supreme Court's ruling was based on a strict interpretation of the Second Amendment...that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. What I was, perhaps not so obviously, arguing is that we should not just strictly interpret the Constitution when it suits us individually. The context in which the language of the Constitution and Bill of Rights has changed dramatically in 200 years.


"the context has changed" -THAT'S THE PROBLEM! It's not supposed to have changed.

We SHOULD STRICTLY INTERPRET THE CONSTITUTION. THAT'S THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE.
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Postby MrsPerry » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:04 am

Rhiannon wrote:
MrsPerry wrote:
Calbear94 wrote:Did you know that in Texas along the border, there are "ranchers" with scopes and high-powered rifles who shoot at unarmed, illegal aliens if they happen to cross over their property? They claim they are militia members defending the Constitution and laws of this country!



Exactly my point.


Same thing would apply to a burglar or a strange unfriendly dog in my yard.


My opinion is (and maybe it's just my raisings) that if it is your property, you have every right to defend it. You want to come into this country? Do so legally and have some respect for the ones already here. I couldn't shoot a dog though.



I wouldn't take pleasure in killing a dog either, but if it is an agressive animal, and was bothering my property or my children, in a heartbeat.
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Postby Tito » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:05 am

Calbear94 wrote:We have a strong government which has survived all sorts of adversities. We have representation and are not governed by a mother country 3000 miles away. We have had only one Civil War, in which our government invaded the South to keep the Union together and not let it divide over slavery. I can't imagine our government attacking any part of our country over any issue less severe than slavery was. In my opinion, this is sheer paranoia.


Naive. We have a shitty government right now. The way you're looking at (and I would probably agree with you) is we have TOO STRONG a federal government. Look at the popularity ratings right now for congress and the president. Do you trust them. I don't. Not sure where you live, but I don't trust or like my state or local government as well. I don't trust the cops either. Some of them are the biggest crooks I know. Cops are the government too. And I definitely don't trust a lot of police, way too much authority.
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Postby Rhiannon » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:06 am

MrsPerry wrote:
Rhiannon wrote:
MrsPerry wrote:
Calbear94 wrote:Did you know that in Texas along the border, there are "ranchers" with scopes and high-powered rifles who shoot at unarmed, illegal aliens if they happen to cross over their property? They claim they are militia members defending the Constitution and laws of this country!



Exactly my point.


Same thing would apply to a burglar or a strange unfriendly dog in my yard.


My opinion is (and maybe it's just my raisings) that if it is your property, you have every right to defend it. You want to come into this country? Do so legally and have some respect for the ones already here. I couldn't shoot a dog though.



I wouldn't take pleasure in killing a dog either, but if it is an agressive animal, and was bothering my property or my children, in a heartbeat.


Well, yes, but at least the dog isn't draining my country's public service budget when it isn't paying taxes. :P :wink:
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Postby Tito » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:07 am

Calbear94 wrote:If you take the Second Amendment verbatim, then it would appear that one would have to be a member of a militia. Surely, not every American today is going to sign up for one year of militia service duty! I believe the founding fathers would be horrified to know how guns are being used today.


I think they would be more horrified to see what government is today.
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Postby Tito » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:11 am

Calbear94 wrote:Let's ask the Colombine families how they feel on this issue? Better yet, let ask the thousands of inner cities families about the disastrous effect that handgun ownership has had on them and their communities?


Maybe an armed teacher could've prevented or reduce the tradegy. Inner city should ask themselves. They're the problem not the guns. As a matter of fact, a lot of the inner city victims, WHERE THERE ARE STRICT GUN CONTROL in place, would like to defend themselves.
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Postby Tito » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:18 am

Calbear94 wrote:Did you know that in Texas along the border, there are "ranchers" with scopes and high-powered rifles who shoot at unarmed, illegal aliens if they happen to cross over their property? They claim they are militia members defending the Constitution and laws of this country!


You are so full of shit on this one. This absolutely does not happen. If it does, let me know so I can go do there.
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Postby Tito » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:19 am

Rick wrote:There needs to be a better solution for illegal aliens. The current method isn't working, at all. I'm not sure that shooting at them is the answer, but something needs to be done.


Actually, it would stop the crossings. It would be the cheapest and most efficient way too.
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Postby conversationpc » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:23 am

Calbear94 wrote:Did you know that in Texas along the border, there are "ranchers" with scopes and high-powered rifles who shoot at unarmed, illegal aliens if they happen to cross over their property? They claim they are militia members defending the Constitution and laws of this country!


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Postby 7 Wishes » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:52 am

Tito wrote:
Calbear94 wrote:Your historical facts are askew here. And if these inform your opinion regarding the right to bear arms, then perhaps you should re-evaluate.

Fact:

1.) Today's national guard is far more organized than the colonial militias ever were. In the revolution, the Continental Army superceded the militias from various colonies. Washington inherited many of these militia members and he himself remarked that they were drunken, slovenly, underarmed, and prone to desertion. They were undisciplined and unruly. Washington had to whip them into shape, which is remarkable because he had to keep them from passing out drunk and to maintain their equipment properly (i.e. not to barbecue meat on their bayonettes). Check out 1776 by David McCullogh.

2.) Jefferson saw through the sham of "virtual representation." He understood that the American colonists, were basically voiceless subjects of the British crown. Therefore, any laws or taxes passed upon the colonies were without the consent of the governed. The right to bear arms would later be included in the Bill of Rights, because some of the founding fathers (the Republicans) feared that the new republic (based on the Constitution) would fail and thus the people would again be subjected to a tyranny.

3.) The Constitution has worked for over 200 years. In terms of voting rights and personal freedoms, we are far more free today than perhaps even the founding fathers could have imagined. Poor white males (i.e. without property) could not vote in most states until the 1820s, Blacks could not vote until 1870 and women until 1920. Public school education is a right for all. The civil rights act of 1963 precludes discrimination on the basis of race, gender, creed, etc.

4.) We don't need armed individuals to defend us from foreign powers, either. We have a professional army made up our own citizens from all the states in the Union.

The report above shows the very real problem faced in Washington, DC. It is based on comprehensive statistical evidence, not liberal opinions. To just dismiss it out of hand shows irrational bias.

Lastly, let's not forget that the recent ruling by the Supreme Court (which is a conservative court now) struck down the handgun measure that was voted on and approved by the citizens of Washington, D.C. whom I am sure do not have to be convinced with reems of statistics. Their experiences living in the community shows just how out of control the handgun situation is. Least needing to be convinced are those that have lost relatives or friends due to gun violence.

It is almost contradictory to be supporting the right to bear arms, while opposing states' rights (OK, technically Washington D.C. is not a state, but its citizens deserve to have the same rights as other citizens in the fifty states, and besides this case is just a test case...Chicago's handgun restrictions are soon to be overturned). Jefferson saw states' rights, more than anything else, as the bulwark against a tyranny by our national government.

A rule by the majority is the bedrock of a democracy. If the people of a state, or U.S. territory, vote to restrict, but not deny guns altogether, then that should be their right. If you believe that the right to own guns is absolute, then let's do away with licensing requirements altogether and return to lawlessness, not unlike the wild west. By strictly interpreting the Constitution, the court is denying of the right of a democratic electorate to say that some guns are just not OK. If we had adhered strictly to the founding father's definition of a republican citizen, then only propertied, white males would enjoy full rights and freedoms granted under the Constitution and Bill of Rights. I for one would not want to live in a world like that, just like I wouldn't want to live in Washington, D.C. since the reversal of the handgun ban.


In short, every single one of your points is incorrect. Not to mention scary.


Wait a minute, Tito. He was citing indisputable facts. Your "well thought-out" response is to retort that "every single [point] is incorrect"?

Just yet another typical ultra-conservative who has nothing to stand on when the facts are put forth.
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Postby 7 Wishes » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:52 am

Tito wrote:
Calbear94 wrote:Did you know that in Texas along the border, there are "ranchers" with scopes and high-powered rifles who shoot at unarmed, illegal aliens if they happen to cross over their property? They claim they are militia members defending the Constitution and laws of this country!


You are so full of shit on this one. This absolutely does not happen. If it does, let me know so I can go do there.


This is as well-known a fact as any about illegal immigration. They did a piece on it on WABC-AM a few months ago.
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Postby conversationpc » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:54 am

7 Wishes wrote:Wait a minute, Tito. He was citing indisputable facts. Your "well thought-out" response is to retort that "every single [point] is incorrect"?

Just yet another typical ultra-conservative who has nothing to stand on when the facts are put forth.


If that's the case, then he's got lots of company from the ultra-liberals on this board also.

I'm still waiting on a response to some of my points in the man-made global warming debate from several months ago... :lol:
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Postby Tito » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:56 am

7 Wishes wrote:Wait a minute, Tito. He was citing indisputable facts. Your "well thought-out" response is to retort that "every single [point] is incorrect"?

Just yet another typical ultra-conservative who has nothing to stand on when the facts are put forth.


Those were NOT indisputable facts. I didn't want to waste my time picking apart every argument (plus others have already done so). I just bottom lined it.
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Postby Tito » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:01 am

7 Wishes wrote:This is as well-known a fact as any about illegal immigration. They did a piece on it on WABC-AM a few months ago.


I just did a quick search and didn't find anything. Even went to the WABC-AM website. And it is probably a well known myth.
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Postby Rhiannon » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:03 am

People are way too eager to throw around things as "fact". Do you guys realize that even gravity in itself is just a theory? Verbiage, guys. :wink:
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Postby Rick » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:04 am

conversationpc wrote:
7 Wishes wrote:Wait a minute, Tito. He was citing indisputable facts. Your "well thought-out" response is to retort that "every single [point] is incorrect"?

Just yet another typical ultra-conservative who has nothing to stand on when the facts are put forth.


If that's the case, then he's got lots of company from the ultra-liberals on this board also.

I'm still waiting on a response to some of my points in the man-made global warming debate from several months ago... :lol:


It's a fact. :lol: :twisted:
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Postby conversationpc » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:06 am

Rick wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
7 Wishes wrote:Wait a minute, Tito. He was citing indisputable facts. Your "well thought-out" response is to retort that "every single [point] is incorrect"?

Just yet another typical ultra-conservative who has nothing to stand on when the facts are put forth.


If that's the case, then he's got lots of company from the ultra-liberals on this board also.

I'm still waiting on a response to some of my points in the man-made global warming debate from several months ago... :lol:


It's a fact. :lol: :twisted:


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Postby AlteredDNA » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:06 am

7 Wishes wrote:
Tito wrote:
Calbear94 wrote:Did you know that in Texas along the border, there are "ranchers" with scopes and high-powered rifles who shoot at unarmed, illegal aliens if they happen to cross over their property? They claim they are militia members defending the Constitution and laws of this country!


You are so full of shit on this one. This absolutely does not happen. If it does, let me know so I can go do there.


This is as well-known a fact as any about illegal immigration. They did a piece on it on WABC-AM a few months ago.


Don't think it's "well known" at all...

However this was on the WABC-AM site:

http://www.wabcradio.com/news.asp?c=USN ... %3DDEFAULT
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Postby conversationpc » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:07 am

AlteredDNA wrote:
7 Wishes wrote:
Tito wrote:
Calbear94 wrote:Did you know that in Texas along the border, there are "ranchers" with scopes and high-powered rifles who shoot at unarmed, illegal aliens if they happen to cross over their property? They claim they are militia members defending the Constitution and laws of this country!


You are so full of shit on this one. This absolutely does not happen. If it does, let me know so I can go do there.


This is as well-known a fact as any about illegal immigration. They did a piece on it on WABC-AM a few months ago.


Don't think it's "well known" at all...

However this was on the WABC-AM site:

http://www.wabcradio.com/news.asp?c=USN ... %3DDEFAULT


I'm not sure that's the story they're talking about but I have heard about that one.
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