Objective Review of current Journey lineup

[Red13JoePa]

Dan wouldn't know what soul was if it cuffed him upside the head. Have had that damn argument with him more times than I can count.

Bah, Dan knows what it is, at least as it applies around here.
It's a intagible canned positive label affixed to singing and delivery, out of some internal need to, when we like the artists but something sounds wrong.

[Rhiannon]

It's a intagible canned positive label affixed to singing and delivery, out of some internal need to, when we like the artists but something sounds wrong.

That's quite the definition.
Here comes Deb w/ her rolling pin.

[Saint John]

Does "art" even come into play in your mind? Or, is it all about "feel good" "beer drinking" music on a Friday night?

I'm leaning toward the latter.

Me too. Dan wouldn't know what soul was if it cuffed him upside the head. Have had that damn argument with him more times than I can count.

I know all about soul. Perry had it, Cooke had it and Motown made it famous. Where I disagree with you is with your incessant need to use "soul" and "emotive" ability as a cover for mediocre to good professional artists. As evidenced by the attendance at coast to coast events this past weekend the general paying public doesn't seem to give 2 fucking shits about your teenie bopper, Leif Garrett-like crush on 2 average to good professional musicians. Maybe if they had less "soul" and inferior "emotive" abilities they could put some asses in some seats...or public parks. Because you seem to be only one of a handful of people that hear said qualities and/or gives a shit.

[Deb]

It's a intagible canned positive label affixed to singing and delivery, out of some internal need to, when we like the artists but something sounds wrong.

That's quite the definition.
Here comes Deb w/ her rolling pin.

What do you mean, I'm still trying to decifer it. In english please, JoePa. Soul definitely has alot to do with delivery.....but what does soul have to do with liking an artist when something sounds wrong.....lost me there????

Rhi, not quite ready to pull the pin out yet.

[Deb]

Does "art" even come into play in your mind? Or, is it all about "feel good" "beer drinking" music on a Friday night?

I'm leaning toward the latter.

Me too. Dan wouldn't know what soul was if it cuffed him upside the head. Have had that damn argument with him more times than I can count.

I know all about soul. Perry had it, Cooke had it and Motown made it famous. Where I disagree with you is with your incessant need to use "soul" and "emotive" ability as a cover for mediocre to good professional artists. As evidenced by the attendance at coast to coast events this past weekend the general paying public doesn't seem to give 2 fucking shits about your teenie bopper, Leif Garrett-like crush on 2 average to good professional musicians. Maybe if they had less "soul" and inferior "emotive" abilities they could put some asses in some seats...or public parks. Because you seem to be only one of a handful of people that hear said qualities and/or gives a shit.

Kiss my a$$ Dan. Your incessant need to degrade them by constantly quoting attendance stats is getting old too. Remember, some of your favorites aren't selling what they used to either. We don't have to agree on what artists we like.....you think they are mediocre, that's fine.....I think some of your favorite artists are mediocre too.....no biggy. But there is lots of people on this board that like JSS' and Eric Martin's voices......so suck it up princess.

[Matthew]

Kind of like Message Of Love ripping off Separate Ways? You didn't see me running around like an infant with a shit-filled diaper when I heard MOL for the first time. I understood it was the same band keeping to a winning formula and reminding people of who they are. Any band with this many years is going to have similar songs. And Like A Sunshower does revisit the past. Just because Steve Platypus no longer wishes to sing doesn't mean Journey has to nix their entire history with him. They made the music...he sang the songs. They continue to make the same sort of music. If you don't like it get the fuck outta here.

Oh Saint John...enough with all this big talk please. If you'd read that exchange between Red and I properly you'd know that I was responding to his comment that all the songs on Revelation repesented a break away from Perry's songwriting style.

Probably right. It would be hard to rip off Sam Cooke's runs on Survivor songs.

There's no doubt that Perry was heavily influenced by Cooke. Equally there's no doubt that Journey are heavily influenced by...the band that used to rip THEM off.

You act as if Perry recorded and arranged the entire songs of this era. He didn't.

Again - read the conversation. Red said that various songs written without Perry had melodic tension and urgency. The implication possibly being that Journey have more 'edge' without him. The songs I cited above were examples of how the songs with Perry had plenty of edge too.

[Matthew]

Actually Matthew just brought up something that had me thinking and he's definitely on to something. Change for the Better does have that Survivor vibe to it as well as What it Takes to Win. Not that this is a bad thing necessarily because I happen to like Survivor, but there was that ... vibe to it. Still, I enjoyed the heck out of it

They do sound like Survivor, only better.

Its bettahh

I love Journey and everything...but Survivor's When Seconds Count album blows Revelation out of the water....

[Red13JoePa]

Again - read the conversation. Red said that various songs written without Perry had melodic tension and urgency. The implication possibly being that Journey have more 'edge' without him. The songs I cited above were examples of how the songs with Perry had plenty of edge too.

I concur wholeheartedly with the last sentence. BUT, I haven't seen EVIDENCE of it since '86.
TBF is a hollow, tensionless psuedo Journey album, FAR more perryish than ROR.

I see that Schon/Cain can still create it with Journey but the only time mr p was there the last 22 years, 10 years ago it wasn't there.

[Tomulator]

Just needed to know where you all stand...as if it needed confirmation.

SJ, btw...I think your description of fun on a weekend night is EXACTLY what you like.

I'm so relieved I can't prove it though.

The only thing you've proven is that you can't discern sarcasm from reality.

At least I can discern replies that actually contain merit from your replies...

[Matthew]

Again - read the conversation. Red said that various songs written without Perry had melodic tension and urgency. The implication possibly being that Journey have more 'edge' without him. The songs I cited above were examples of how the songs with Perry had plenty of edge too.

I concur wholeheartedly with the last sentence. BUT, I haven't seen EVIDENCE of it since '86.
TBF is a hollow, tensionless psuedo Journey album, FAR more perryish than ROR.

I see that Schon/Cain can still create it with Journey but the only time mr p was there the last 22 years, 10 years ago it wasn't there.

I agree that TBF was a very melancholic album and that is entirely down to Perry given how undeep Schon and Cain are....

But the 'softness' of TBF is frequently over-stated. It's a much more crunchy and heavy sounding album than Revelation which has a very light, poppy feel about it...to my ears anyway.

[Saint John]

Kiss my a$$ Dan.

Gladly.

Your incessant need to degrade them by constantly quoting attendance stats is getting old too.

I present facts regarding attendance and album sales. You'd certainly be touting those very same fucking numbers if they were selling out stadiums so spare me the poo poo.

you think they are mediocre, that's fine

Apparently, so does everyone else. Stars draw...period. They aint stars.

so suck it up princess.

Great...just what stevew needed...an opening to fuck with me.

[Rick]

Just needed to know where you all stand...as if it needed confirmation.

SJ, btw...I think your description of fun on a weekend night is EXACTLY what you like.

I'm so relieved I can't prove it though.

The only thing you've proven is that you can't discern sarcasm from reality.

At least I can discern replies that actually contain merit from your replies...

I'll take sarcasm and levity over argument and negativity any day. Whether they contain merit or not.

[mistiejourney]

Steve Perry-okie?

I can't believe that went right past JoePa, it needs to go on the MR phrase list!

[Tomulator]

Just needed to know where you all stand...as if it needed confirmation.

SJ, btw...I think your description of fun on a weekend night is EXACTLY what you like.

I'm so relieved I can't prove it though.

The only thing you've proven is that you can't discern sarcasm from reality.

At least I can discern replies that actually contain merit from your replies...

I'll take sarcasm and levity over argument and negativity any day. Whether they contain merit or not.

Yeah...the heck with "substance".

[Deb]

Kiss my a$$ Dan.

Gladly.

Your incessant need to degrade them by constantly quoting attendance stats is getting old too.

I present facts regarding attendance and album sales. You'd certainly be touting those very same fucking numbers if they were selling out stadiums so spare me the poo poo.

Dead wrong on that one. I saw both Bon Jovi and Motley Crue (who sell tons) and JSS and Eric Martin last year and much prefer the latter. I love JBJ and VN, but there is no comparison when you're talking vocal talent against EM or JSS. EM and JSS are just more talented singers period.......believe me that was a hard one to say, I used to think the sun shone out of JBJ's a$$. I don't give a fig about attendance and album sales......from a selfish fan's perspective. I would much rather see the talents of the Emmetts, Jamisons, Martins, Sotos, etc in the clubs than the Bon Jovi's in the arenas.

[The_Noble_Cause]

But the 'softness' of TBF is frequently over-stated. It's a much more crunchy and heavy sounding album than Revelation which has a very light, poppy feel about it...to my ears anyway.

"One More" and "I Can See it in your Eyes" are about as hard as Journey has ever rocked - minus maybe Red 13's The Time.
"Wildest Dream" rocks, but the effort is dampered by the whore house piano player reading Andrew Lloyd Webber sheet music.
Like others have said, Cain dominates this album.

[conversationpc]

"Wildest Dream" rocks, but the effort is dampered by the whore house piano player reading Andrew Lloyd Webber sheet music.

Yes! That's what I hate about that song. To me, the keys on that song just seem to drone on and on and on, ruining an otherwise good tune.

[brywool]

funny, most of the same people that were skeptical of Pineda before really hearing him with Journey and also pissed that JSS ain't there or Perry ain't there are the same ones that don't like the new album.

Gee, whatta surprise.

The surprise is that Stevew2 seems to like it.

As for the comments on soul, etc. I think both camps are right. I think that Pineda's gotta ton of soul, btw. I thought so when I first heard him and then when I read his story I knew he did. I do think that some people who really aren't great singers with a lot of range get the 'soul' tag and sometimes it does seem to by synonymous with "this guy really doesn't have a lot of range" or "this guy's gotta raspy voice". Take Joe Cocker. Technically, a crappy singer. However, buttloads of soul. Take Rik Emmett. Not a lot of what people say is soul, but technically a brilliant singer. Perry had both. Sam had both. Jss has a decent range and soul to his voice. However, for Journey, it didn't work. Most people didn't think Perry a soulful singer until they heard the raspiness later on. Prior to that, all you ever heard was 'he sounds like a duck' at least in the press.

[Saint John]

"One More" and "I Can See it in your Eyes" are about as hard as Journey has ever rocked

Musically...yes. Vocally...hell no. Perry's voice was very lacking on both of those tunes as far as "rocking" goes. Try as he might, he just couldn't rock and/or give them the edge of Mother, Father or even Be Good To Yourself. I'm sure, if it were completely up to him, TBF would have been a complete snoozefest and he would have omitted those songs. For the first time, he bordered on cracking whenever he tried to rock and was very thin in spots. ICSIIYE is a bad vocal performance. You can feel Perry's lack of confidnce and/or conviction bleeding right through that song.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Musically...yes. Vocally...hell no. Perry's voice was very lacking on both of those tunes as far as "rocking" goes. Try as he might, he just couldn't rock and/or give them the edge of Mother, Father or even Be Good To Yourself. I'm sure, if it were completely up to him, TBF would have been a complete snoozefest and he would have omitted those songs. For the first time, he bordered on cracking whenever he tried to rock and was very thin in spots. ICSIIYE is a bad vocal performance. You can feel Perry's lack of confidnce and/or conviction bleeding right through that song.

Perry's a vocal technician.
I have no doubt any cracks or breathing you heard were deliberate.
His perfectionist impulses allegedly reached a boiling point during the TBF sessions when he threatened someone with a fire extinguisher.
Shirley scans this board, maybe he or AlienC will be kind enuff to confirm.

I would take Perry on a new Journey studio album over Augeri or Pineda any day.

[Saint John]

Musically...yes. Vocally...hell no. Perry's voice was very lacking on both of those tunes as far as "rocking" goes. Try as he might, he just couldn't rock and/or give them the edge of Mother, Father or even Be Good To Yourself. I'm sure, if it were completely up to him, TBF would have been a complete snoozefest and he would have omitted those songs. For the first time, he bordered on cracking whenever he tried to rock and was very thin in spots. ICSIIYE is a bad vocal performance. You can feel Perry's lack of confidnce and/or conviction bleeding right through that song.

Perry's a vocal technician.
I have no doubt any cracks or breathing you heard were deliberate.
His perfectionist impulses allegedly reached a boiling point during the TBF sessions when he threaten someone with a fire extinguisher.
Shirley scans this board, maybe he or AlienC will be kind enuff to confirm.

I would take Perry on a new Journey studio album over Augeri or Pineda any day.

The impression I got from "reading between the lines" was that he simply didn't have "it" anymore. Simple lines took multiple takes, more difficult ones were "patched" together and the whole experience was a nightmare for the rest of the guys..which is why Herbert knew he wasn't going to tour. He couldn't...then or now.

[conversationpc]

Musically...yes. Vocally...hell no. Perry's voice was very lacking on both of those tunes as far as "rocking" goes. Try as he might, he just couldn't rock and/or give them the edge of Mother, Father or even Be Good To Yourself. I'm sure, if it were completely up to him, TBF would have been a complete snoozefest and he would have omitted those songs. For the first time, he bordered on cracking whenever he tried to rock and was very thin in spots. ICSIIYE is a bad vocal performance. You can feel Perry's lack of confidnce and/or conviction bleeding right through that song.

Perry's a vocal technician.
I have no doubt any cracks or breathing you heard were deliberate.
His perfectionist impulses allegedly reached a boiling point during the TBF sessions when he threaten someone with a fire extinguisher.
Shirley scans this board, maybe he or AlienC will be kind enuff to confirm.

I would take Perry on a new Journey studio album over Augeri or Pineda any day.

The impression I got from "reading between the lines" was that he simply didn't have "it" anymore. Simple lines took multiple takes, more difficult ones were "patched" together and the whole experience was a nightmare for the rest of the guys..which is why Herbert knew he wasn't going to tour. He couldn't...then or now.

That's the impression I've always had as well.

[The_Noble_Cause]

The impression I got from "reading between the lines" was that he simply didn't have "it" anymore. Simple lines took multiple takes, more difficult ones were "patched" together and the whole experience was a nightmare for the rest of the guys..which is why Herbert knew he wasn't going to tour. He couldn't...then or now.

Could be.
No matter how many studio techs' craniums got dented in like a Fresca can, the end result was worth it.
In fact, I think the band should go back to the original plan of Perry recording a new album, while a clone tours in support of it.

[brywool]

Perry's a vocal technician.
I have no doubt any cracks or breathing you heard were deliberate.
His perfectionist impulses allegedly reached a boiling point during the TBF sessions when he threatened someone with a fire extinguisher.

[Rick]

The impression I got from "reading between the lines" was that he simply didn't have "it" anymore. Simple lines took multiple takes, more difficult ones were "patched" together and the whole experience was a nightmare for the rest of the guys..which is why Herbert knew he wasn't going to tour. He couldn't...then or now.

Could be.
No matter how many studio techs' craniums got dented in like a Fresca can, the end result was worth it.
In fact, I think the band should go back to the original plan of Perry recording a new album, while a clone tours in support of it.

I'd be all for that.

[Saint John]

The impression I got from "reading between the lines" was that he simply didn't have "it" anymore. Simple lines took multiple takes, more difficult ones were "patched" together and the whole experience was a nightmare for the rest of the guys..which is why Herbert knew he wasn't going to tour. He couldn't...then or now.

Could be.
No matter how many studio techs' craniums got dented in like a Fresca can, the end result was worth it.
In fact, I think the band should go back to the original plan of Perry recording a new album, while a clone tours in support of it.

I'd be all for that.

I would have been for that in 1986, but since then he's done too much to store the band away at his convenience, wreck lineups, fire their manager, not tour, get paid like he was still singing even though he wasn't, and generally make life tough on guys that just wanted to keep working. "So fuck him."

[Rick]

The impression I got from "reading between the lines" was that he simply didn't have "it" anymore. Simple lines took multiple takes, more difficult ones were "patched" together and the whole experience was a nightmare for the rest of the guys..which is why Herbert knew he wasn't going to tour. He couldn't...then or now.

Could be.
No matter how many studio techs' craniums got dented in like a Fresca can, the end result was worth it.
In fact, I think the band should go back to the original plan of Perry recording a new album, while a clone tours in support of it.

I'd be all for that.

I would have been for that in 1986, but since then he's done too much to store the band away at his convenience, wreck lineups, fire their manager, not tour, get paid like he was still singing even though he wasn't, and generally make life tough on guys that just wanted to keep working. "So fuck him."

I wish I could have heard Neals voice when he said that. Damn.

[Big J]

Augeri did fine on the old stuff. Some people can't be pleased.

That said, I've lived with this new album since the day it came out and while Pineda's better on this DVD than he was on the Chile show - it's still just not quite there.

Wish they would have either kept JSS or brought Augeri back - Arnel deserved the break he got but the current lineup just isn't as good. Deen's working harder than ever.

You have got to be kidding if you think Lou Ferr-Deeno is pitching in to make up for a deficit in Arnel's live singing ability. Seriously?

Yes, I'm serious. I'm glad everyone enjoys the new stuff and the new live sound but there's seriously some rose colored glasses going on here, coupled with people misremembering Augeri's capabilities.

[Saint John]

The impression I got from "reading between the lines" was that he simply didn't have "it" anymore. Simple lines took multiple takes, more difficult ones were "patched" together and the whole experience was a nightmare for the rest of the guys..which is why Herbert knew he wasn't going to tour. He couldn't...then or now.

Could be.
No matter how many studio techs' craniums got dented in like a Fresca can, the end result was worth it.
In fact, I think the band should go back to the original plan of Perry recording a new album, while a clone tours in support of it.

I'd be all for that.

I would have been for that in 1986, but since then he's done too much to store the band away at his convenience, wreck lineups, fire their manager, not tour, get paid like he was still singing even though he wasn't, and generally make life tough on guys that just wanted to keep working. "So fuck him."

I wish I could have heard Neals voice when he said that. Damn.

I can just hear him saying it...laid back, matter of fact and almost laughing. Neal's content right now. Believe me, he doesn't want Perry back and neither does Cain. These guys are loving the hell out of the present. Augeri and Soto were professionals to the bone, but they lacked the sound Neal and Jon were truly searching for. The Search Is Over.

[Deb]

Kiss my a$$ Dan.

Gladly.

Your incessant need to degrade them by constantly quoting attendance stats is getting old too.

I present facts regarding attendance and album sales. You'd certainly be touting those very same fucking numbers if they were selling out stadiums so spare me the poo poo.

you think they are mediocre, that's fine

Apparently, so does everyone else. Stars draw...period. They aint stars.

so suck it up princess.

Great...just what stevew needed...an opening to fuck with me.

One question Dan? A lot of your favorite singers in the same peer group as EM & JSS.....like Emmett, Cronin, Jamison aren't selling or filling the seats they used to either. Jamison just played with Soto last month in Brazil, does that mean he is only average now because he isn't selling out arenas. Not quite getting your logic here? I think we are talking 2 different things, I'm talking talent, you are talking "stars". Anybody can be a "star" (ie, Paris Hilton), not everybody has talent. Paris Hilton gets more attention and could probably sell a room out before Jamison or Soto......does that make her more talented? Gawd, NO! Just more in the public eye.