OT - Two Fires - Kevin Chalfant website

[The_Noble_Cause]

And Chalfant's album of Journey songs didn't jump the shark? That record was every bit as unimaginative in its treatment of the classics as Disc 2 is.

Chalfant is not one of the foremost melodic rock bands of the genre.
Journey has a legacy to upkeep.
Disc 2 is laughable.
It is the living embodiment of every epithet thrown at this band since it reformed in '98.
Total karaoke hour.

Chalfant barely put any effort at all into reinventing those songs...and although you might detect the occasional nuance which convinces you he made those songs his own to most people it just sounds like a straightforwardly pale imitation.

Like Augeri on Vegas 2001 and other studio tracks employed during tapegate, I hear a tenor relating the material in his own way.
The studio track of JSS singing Separate Ways is the same way.
The similarities to Perry start and end with the voice god gave them.
Arnel crosses the line into impersonation.

[S2M]

If this band weren't already so deep in the shit, I'd argue Disc 2 of Revelation is when they finally jumped the shark.
Arnel is lifelessly parroting Perry's delivery and inflections to a tee.

And Chalfant's album of Journey songs didn't jump the shark? That record was every bit as unimaginative in its treatment of the classics as Disc 2 is. Chalfant barely put any effort at all into reinventing those songs...and although you might detect the occasional nuance which convinces you he made those songs his own to most people it just sounds like a straightforwardly pale imitation.

I don't even know why anyone is arguing whether Chalfant is the chosen one.
You all think you know better than Herbie Herbert? Really? - the man who created and micro-managed the band down to every last detail?

Yes - in this case I do. Herbert became a mad old fool who made all kinds of wild claims (like blaming Ross Valory's bankruptcy on Perry and so on) and by the early to mid-1990s he had lost his touch in terms of being an industry player.

I think its depressing that he of all people should have advocated the clone strategy....

I couldn't have said it better myself....Fly 2 Freedom is a travesty. The music is HOLLOW, and the vocals are less than stellar.

[Matthew]

Chalfant is not one of the foremost melodic rock bands of the genre.
Journey has a legacy to upkeep.
Disc 2 is laughable.
It is the living embodiment of every epithet thrown at this band since it reformed in '98.
Total karaoke hour.

I agree, TNC. What I still can't understand though is what makes you think it would have been any different had Chalfant been on vocals instead.

Like Augeri on Vegas 2001 and other studio tracks employed during tapegate, I hear a tenor relating the material in his own way.
The studio track of JSS singing Separate Ways is the same way.
The similarities to Perry start and end with the voice god gave them.
Arnel crosses the line into impersonation.

The only song I've heard in which Arnel does a cringeingly blatant Perry impersonation is Like A Sunshower. He definitely goes a step further here than his predecessors did....

Whereas the re-records seem much the same in terms of their plodding similarity to the originals as those recorded by Augeri and Chalfant. In fact, I've yet to hear a single new version of any classic Journey song by anyone remotely connected to the band that has truly surprised me or which seems to have any real identity of its own.

It's all second-rate and pointless - and the fan base would have been unanimous in its outrage in the early to mid-80s had it been forced to listen to any of this crap. It's only because we've been ground down by years of inactivity and mediocrity that we're giving these cover versions any credit at all.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I agree, TNC. What I still can't understand though is what makes you think it would have been any different had Chalfant been on vocals instead.

Chalfant is not a copycat. He’s a tenor who sounds like Perry. That’s different than copying Perry's renditions of the hits down to the inflection.
The line between homage and outright impersonation is a thin one to be sure, but to my ears, Arnel crosses it several times.
As many fans have complained, on this board and others, it sounds like Arnel is reciting many of these songs phonetically.

Whereas the re-records seem much the same in terms of their similarities to the originals as those recorded by Augeri and Chalfant. I fact, I've yet to hear a single new version of any classic Journey song by anyone remotely connected to the band that has truly surprised me or which seems to have any real identity of its own.

You either hear it or you don’t.
As a self-styled Perry diehard, I would think you have a keener ear for this than even me.
Throughout Disc 2 Arnel is copying Perry’s delivery on the greatest hits.
It's nowhere near as blatant on either Vegas 2001 or Fly2Freedom - those guys are just belting.
Again, it’s a thin line.

[Matthew]

You either hear it or you don’t.

As I said TNC...I heard it on Like A Sunshower...so I do agree with you up to a point....

As a self-styled Perry die hard, I would think you have a keener ear for this than even me.

If I sat down and really devoted some time to analysing all the cover versions that are out there from Chalfant, Augeri, JSS and Arnel...then I might well come to fully understand what you're saying about the degrees of blatancy. But the truth is...I can't actually listen to any of these songs all the way through. It's painful listening to something that was so utterly extraordinary sounding so pedestrian. I can't really get past that basic reaction and I still maintain that no-one connected to Journey has ever even tried to do anything different or interesting with these songs.

Throughout Disc 2 Arnel is copying Perry’s delivery on the greatest hits.
It's nowhere near as blatant on either Vegas 2001 or Fly2Freedom - those guys are just belting.
Again, it’s a thin line.

Where do you stand on Jeremey? Here's a tribute singer whose natural voice happens to sound uncannily like Perry's? Also - on which songs do you feel Arnel's 'authentic' voice can be heard? Just curious...

[The_Noble_Cause]

As I said TNC...I heard it on Like A Sunshower...so I do agree with you up to a point....

The fact that the song is new offsets any derivativeness in the vocal.
Arnel definately sounds like Infinity-era Perry on that one, but sounding like Perry isn't really a problem with me.
Copying Perry's vocal delivery on songs he popularized, as I hear on Disc 2, is another matter.

If I sat down and really devoted some time to analysing all the cover versions that are out there from Chalfant, Augeri, JSS and Arnel...then I might well come to fully understand what you're saying about the degrees of blatancy. But the truth is...I can't actually listen to any of these songs all the way through. It's painful listening to something that was so utterly extraordinary sounding so pedestrian. I can't really get past that basic reaction and I still maintain that no-one connected to Journey has ever even tried to do anything different or interesting with these songs.

Understand that for an extended dark period I was on a forced diet of Augeri boots to help Deano during Tapegate.
If you listen to these Perry clones long enough you begin to hear degrees of gradation you didn't noticed at first take.
There's nuance to be found among all of them.

Where do you stand on Jeremey? Here's a tribute singer whose natural voice happens to sound uncannily like Perry's?

Jeremey adds a few Perry or Sam Cooke-type flourishes here and there. He livens things up by adding retro-Perry elements in places where there weren't any on the original recordings. And that's great, that's what live singers should do.
My beef is with Arnel copying Perry's precise phrasing and delivery on the new hits.
If he or Jeremey want to add Perry touches in concert or on new material that's fine.

Also - on which songs do you feel Arnel's 'authentic' voice can be heard? Just curious...

Wildest Dream, Change for the Better, What it Takes to Win.
I think he's his own man on most of cd 1.

[7 Wishes]

"Ignition" off "Two Fires" is brilliant Chalfant/Ramos stuff, and is better than half of the Dirty Dozen.

[RedWingFan]

Chalfant is not one of the foremost melodic rock bands of the genre.
Journey has a legacy to upkeep.
Disc 2 is laughable.
It is the living embodiment of every epithet thrown at this band since it reformed in '98.
Total karaoke hour.

TNC I have to say. I'm way ahead of you here. The only time Disc 2 has been out of the case was 2 days ago when it fell out on the floor. For some unknown reason I picked it up and put it back in! I'm still trying to figure out why.

[StoneCold]

The only time KC sounded like SP to me was a couple of songs on the first Storm album. I don't get that he's trying to inflect SP. He's got a similar voice so some of it will be close.

I'm amazed he's been able to keep his voice strong 'til today.

[Matthew]

The fact that the song is new offsets any derivativeness in the vocal.

I disagree. He crossed the line on that song into pure impersonation. I suspect you're only giving Arnel a pass here because you were so full of praise for this song in particular when the album came out.

Arnel definately sounds like Infinity-era Perry on that one, but sounding like Perry isn't really a problem with me.
Copying Perry's vocal delivery on songs he popularized, as I hear on Disc 2, is another matter.

Surely the issue here is whether or not Arnel is singing in his authentic voice? Sounding like Perry because that's the way God made him is one thing. Faking it to sound like Perry is another...and that's exactly what Arnel is doing on Like A Sunshower.

Understand that for an extended dark period I was on a forced diet of Augeri boots to help Deano during Tapegate.

I was starting to wonder what it was that motivated you to become such an expert in Perry clonedom. But this was indeed a worthy endeavour....

My beef is with Arnel copying Perry's precise phrasing and delivery on the new hits.
If he or Jeremey want to add Perry touches in concert or on new material that's fine.

Again - the only question should be: is this singer singing in their natural voice or not?

And where do you stand on the rest of the band trying to replicate the originals? Yes, they have more 'right' to do that than the newcomer does perhaps - and with the exception of Deen they are imitating themselves which I guess is marginally better than imitating someone else - but Disc 2 shows a pretty miserable lack of invention don't you think? Schon and Cain are capable of so much more - and there was plenty of room for at least some innovation without alienating the dumb Wal-mart Journey fan who probably has the GH CD in any case. Actually, the collective failure of the band to put a new spin on the old classics annoys me even more than just Arnel copying the inflections does...

Change For The Better

Definitely agree that Arnel sounds like his own man on this one....

[Aaron]

The band needs both, a good third writer and a choir boy set of pipes. We'll see how Arnel does in the writing department. Both Chalfant and Hugo have demonstrated writing skills that Journey could use.

Should've chosen Chalfant back when Perry left in '98. Loved Augeri, but Chalfant would've brought more in terms of song writing, which is what I feel Journey still needs...a good third song writer like they had with Perry.

Exactly.
Which is why Jeff, for whatever he lacked in eunuch choir boy-type range, would've been such a strong asset.
This band needs more than just a loaned out set of pipes.

[Aaron]

TNC,

I couldn't agree more with you comments in this post. Chalfant could do it without issue.

L8r,

Aaron

Now I like the song from the Storm, but on much of the other material it seems that he tries to hard to sound like Perry and you can tell.

I can't.
Out of all the singers looked at by the band, Kevin is the one that sounds most comfortable in his own skin.
Everyone else, to varying degrees of success, is putting on airs to try to sound like someone they aren't.

Not sure how to explain it. I know Arnel and Jeremey sound like Perry but it seems natural when they sing. Just my 2

Both Arnel and Jeremey use Perry's inflections. Arnel especially.
If this band weren't already so deep in the shit, I'd argue Disc 2 of Revelation is when they finally jumped the shark.
Arnel is lifelessly parroting Perry's delivery and inflections to a tee.

I don't even know why anyone is arguing whether Chalfant is the chosen one.
You all think you know better than Herbie Herbert? Really? - the man who created and micro-managed the band down to every last detail?

[finalfight]

The band needs both, a good third writer and a choir boy set of pipes. We'll see how Arnel does in the writing department. Both Chalfant and Hugo have demonstrated writing skills that Journey could use.

Should've chosen Chalfant back when Perry left in '98. Loved Augeri, but Chalfant would've brought more in terms of song writing, which is what I feel Journey still needs...a good third song writer like they had with Perry.

Exactly.
Which is why Jeff, for whatever he lacked in eunuch choir boy-type range, would've been such a strong asset.
This band needs more than just a loaned out set of pipes.

Given the commercial and critical success of Revelation so far I would say the band does not need a third writer. Unless of course you want another Butterfly added to the mix?

[Matthew]

The band needs both, a good third writer and a choir boy set of pipes. We'll see how Arnel does in the writing department. Both Chalfant and Hugo have demonstrated writing skills that Journey could use.

I think the popularity of Schon and Cain's song-writing over the years suggests that there's no need just yet to bring in a couple of writers who have never had a hit record....

[Aaron]

lol, we sure as hell don't need another Butterfly and my balls still hurt from that swat. Thanks for that. I think the writing was good on Revelation but not stellar and I do like the record. My judge on writing is based on how many times I hit the skip button while the disk is playing. I hit the skip button less on Hugo and Chalfant stuff than I do on Revelation. The first four are great but I find myself hit skip past those four. I'll take another writer in the mix. I think a lot of the band's writing success came from tension in the band when Perry was there. I say lets bring another prick into the mix to drive some more tension!

The band needs both, a good third writer and a choir boy set of pipes. We'll see how Arnel does in the writing department. Both Chalfant and Hugo have demonstrated writing skills that Journey could use.

Should've chosen Chalfant back when Perry left in '98. Loved Augeri, but Chalfant would've brought more in terms of song writing, which is what I feel Journey still needs...a good third song writer like they had with Perry.

Exactly.
Which is why Jeff, for whatever he lacked in eunuch choir boy-type range, would've been such a strong asset.
This band needs more than just a loaned out set of pipes.

Given the commercial and critical success of Revelation so far I would say the band does not need a third writer. Unless of course you want another Butterfly added to the mix?

[Aaron]

That's a weak argument. Any of those writers would have had great success if their stuff was put under the Journey brand. I'm not buying the no "hit record" argument. Have you listened to Hugo and Chalfant's work in detail or are you just pissin? Go back and look at some of Andrew's reviews of their work.

Here's a couple of examples:

http://www.melodicrock.com/reviews/reviews.html

http://www.melodicrock.com/reviews/reviewsuk.html#hugo

Quote from Mac: "the impact that Hugo's self titled debut album made. That album was released in 1997 to amazing critical and fan reaction. ... It was and still is touted as the album Journey should have recorded, when in that same year, they released Trial By Fire.

The band needs both, a good third writer and a choir boy set of pipes. We'll see how Arnel does in the writing department. Both Chalfant and Hugo have demonstrated writing skills that Journey could use.

I think the popularity of Schon and Cain's song-writing over the years suggests that there's no need just yet to bring in a couple of writers who have never had a hit record....

[Matthew]

That's a weak argument. Any of those writers would have had great success if their stuff was put under the Journey brand. I'm not buying the no "hit record" argument. Have you listened to Hugo and Chalfant's work in detail or are you just pissin?

The Journey brand didn't help Augeri become a successful recording artist...so why would it be any different with Hugo or Chalfant? Even the Arnel line-up hasn't yet proved that - in terms of new material alone - the Journey brand is enough to sell any records.

I don't know...I'm getting tired of every C-list AOR act being touted as 'good enough for Journey'. It makes me wonder how many real Journey fans are on this board. It seems only a handful of people appreciate just how extraordinary this group actually was and how difficult it is for anyone - even the remaining members of the classic line-up itself - to meet the standards they've set.

[Matthew]

Go back and look at some of Andrew's reviews of their work.

Here's a couple of examples:

http://www.melodicrock.com/reviews/reviews.html

http://www.melodicrock.com/reviews/reviewsuk.html#hugo

Quote from Mac: "the impact that Hugo's self titled debut album made. That album was released in 1997 to amazing critical and fan reaction. ... It was and still is touted as the album Journey should have recorded, when in that same year, they released Trial By Fire.

Well..this is Andrew's opinion...just like it was Andrew's opinion that Revelation was worth giving a 97% rating to...which would make it just 3% short of being the greatest album of all-time. No-one can doubt his expertise when it comes to melodic rock...but his reviews and ratings are purely subjective according to his taste.

So I'm not sure you can present these reviews as 'proof' that Chalfant and Hugo make the grade...

[Aaron]

I agree with the Augeri comment. I don't think Steve A has the same writing talent as Hugo or Chalfant. We'll to see what Arnel does for sure.

If you haven't listened to the other bands, then please don't call them "C list AOR acts". If you have then fair enough. If you look at some of Andrews reviews, you'll see that has some great accolades for these guys. I do have an appreciation for how good Journey was as an AOR act and would consider myself a huge fan. However, I'm not blind and do not just assume they're the greatest ever in their current form.

From 1978-1983 no one could touch Journey. I think since then they've been good but not great. I'm still letting Revelation weigh in on how good they are now. Just because they were great in their prime doesn't mean they of the same quality today man.

That's a weak argument. Any of those writers would have had great success if their stuff was put under the Journey brand. I'm not buying the no "hit record" argument. Have you listened to Hugo and Chalfant's work in detail or are you just pissin?

The Journey brand didn't help Augeri become a successful recording artist...so why would it be any different with Hugo or Chalfant? Even the Arnel line-up hasn't yet proved that - in terms of new material alone - the Journey brand is enough to sell any records.

I don't know...I'm getting tired of every C-list AOR act being touted as 'good enough for Journey'. It makes me wonder how many real Journey fans are on this board. It seems only a handful of people appreciate just how extraordinary this group actually was and how difficult it is for anyone - even the remaining members of the classic line-up itself - to meet the standards they've set.

[finalfight]

Go back and look at some of Andrew's reviews of their work.

Here's a couple of examples:

http://www.melodicrock.com/reviews/reviews.html

http://www.melodicrock.com/reviews/reviewsuk.html#hugo

Quote from Mac: "the impact that Hugo's self titled debut album made. That album was released in 1997 to amazing critical and fan reaction. ... It was and still is touted as the album Journey should have recorded, when in that same year, they released Trial By Fire.

Well..this is Andrew's opinion...just like it was Andrew's opinion that Revelation was worth giving a 97% rating to...which would make it just 3% short of being the greatest album of all-time. No-one can doubt his expertise when it comes to melodic rock...but his reviews and ratings are purely subjective according to his taste.

So I'm not sure you can present these reviews as 'proof' that Chalfant and Hugo make the grade...

Andrew's reviews are based purely in the realms of the subject matter covered on the site namely melodic rock. Therefore he likely felt Revelation to be worthy of 97% on a scale were 100% would be the pinnacle of the melodic rock genre. In no way did Andrew's review suggest that it was 3% a way from being the best album of all time rather a near perfect melodic rock album. Personally I would rate on a scale of 1 to 10 to make things a little easier all round.

I agree with both Andrew and Aaron about Hugo's S/T debut though, it blows Trial By Fire away in the songwriting department. Chalfant's no slouch either.

[StoneCold]

Hugo's great but I think Kevin's voice is stronger. I have all of Hugo's cds btw.

As for Kevin, I'm curious why they chose Augeri over him way back when. That's not a dis on SA but Chalfant seemed the obvious choice at the time.

Hugo's first album is excellent, BTW. Closest to a "metal Journey" sound.

Walk Away's a favorite track.

[Matthew]

If you haven't listened to the other bands, then please don't call them "C list AOR acts". If you have then fair enough.

I've got a two disc compilation of Chalfant's stuff spanning his entire career. And I enjoyed it a lot....although I don't often return to it. The guy is talented and this is a type of music I love. As for Hugo...I've heard his cover versions posted numerous times here and I like a couple of his original Valentine songs. Again - I've got nothing bad to say about him..other than that he isn't an all-time legend like most of the guys in Journey are.

I do have an appreciation for how good Journey was as an AOR act and would consider myself a huge fan. However, I'm not blind and do not just assume they're the greatest ever in their current form.

Not in their current form..but they were the greatest ever. Chalfant and Hugo were not the greatest ever....

[Matthew]

As for Kevin, I'm curious why they chose Augeri over him way back when. That's not a dis on SA but Chalfant seemed the obvious choice at the time.

Perhaps they thought that Augeri would go over better with the female fan base....

[finalfight]

I agree with the Augeri comment. I don't think Steve A has the same writing talent as Hugo or Chalfant. We'll to see what Arnel does for sure.

If you haven't listened to the other bands, then please don't call them "C list AOR acts". If you have then fair enough. If you look at some of Andrews reviews, you'll see that has some great accolades for these guys. I do have an appreciation for how good Journey was as an AOR act and would consider myself a huge fan. However, I'm not blind and do not just assume they're the greatest ever in their current form.

From 1978-1983 no one could touch Journey. I think since then they've been good but not great. I'm still letting Revelation weigh in on how good they are now. Just because they were great in their prime doesn't mean they of the same quality today man.

That's a weak argument. Any of those writers would have had great success if their stuff was put under the Journey brand. I'm not buying the no "hit record" argument. Have you listened to Hugo and Chalfant's work in detail or are you just pissin?

The Journey brand didn't help Augeri become a successful recording artist...so why would it be any different with Hugo or Chalfant? Even the Arnel line-up hasn't yet proved that - in terms of new material alone - the Journey brand is enough to sell any records.

I don't know...I'm getting tired of every C-list AOR act being touted as 'good enough for Journey'. It makes me wonder how many real Journey fans are on this board. It seems only a handful of people appreciate just how extraordinary this group actually was and how difficult it is for anyone - even the remaining members of the classic line-up itself - to meet the standards they've set.

Whilst I like Augeri alot his writing talent is at a pre-school level compared to the talented Chalfant and Valenti.

I must admit I don't really enjoy Journey's music prior to Escape and although I like Revelation it is not on repeat play for me, in fact I have barely listened to it at all and find that I am skipping a few tracks even at this early stage - Wildest Dreams, Change for the Betta! and After All These Years to be precise.

Overall despite being impressed I feel the album is all over the place vocally and sounds somewhat like a compilation of good vocalists. Arnel is pretty damn magnificent but he sounds very different on practically every song and as such its taking me a while to warm to the record. It has no real identity and feels a little like Mecca part II - I liked the first alot btw but barely listen to it at all now.

[StoneCold]

As for Kevin, I'm curious why they chose Augeri over him way back when. That's not a dis on SA but Chalfant seemed the obvious choice at the time.

Perhaps they thought that Augeri would go over better with the female fan base....

Good point. Ticket sales and the almighty dollar.

[Aaron]

Dude, it's all opinion and personal tastes so "proof" is meaningless. All I'm saying is if you haven't listened to Hugo and Chalfants CD's in their entirety (not clips), then please do and quite calling them C-list folks. If you've given them a fair shake, I'll shut up bro. It's all personal preference.

Go back and look at some of Andrew's reviews of their work.

Here's a couple of examples:

http://www.melodicrock.com/reviews/reviews.html

http://www.melodicrock.com/reviews/reviewsuk.html#hugo

Quote from Mac: "the impact that Hugo's self titled debut album made. That album was released in 1997 to amazing critical and fan reaction. ... It was and still is touted as the album Journey should have recorded, when in that same year, they released Trial By Fire.

Well..this is Andrew's opinion...just like it was Andrew's opinion that Revelation was worth giving a 97% rating to...which would make it just 3% short of being the greatest album of all-time. No-one can doubt his expertise when it comes to melodic rock...but his reviews and ratings are purely subjective according to his taste.

So I'm not sure you can present these reviews as 'proof' that Chalfant and Hugo make the grade...

[Matthew]

Revelation it is not on repeat play for me, in fact I have barely listened to it at all and find that I am skipping a few tracks even at this early stage - Wildest Dreams, Change for the Betta! and After All These Years to be precise.

Overall despite being impressed I feel the album is all over the place vocally and sounds somewhat like a compilation of good vocalists. Arnel is pretty damn magnificent but he sounds very different on practically every song and as such its taking me a while to warm to the record. It has no real identity and feels a little like Mecca part II - I liked the first alot btw but barely listen to it at all now.

Change For the Better is a highlight for me but otherwise this is exactly how I feel about the record too, Finalflight.

[Matthew]

Dude, it's all opinion and personal tastes so "proof" is meaningless. All I'm saying is if you haven't listened to Hugo and Chalfants CD's in their entirety (not clips), then please do and quite calling them C-list folks. If you've given them a fair shake, I'll shut up bro. It's all personal preference.

I'm not talking about "clips", Aaron. I had about twenty full-length Chalfant songs. Not enough to make me any kind of authority...but enough to form a reasonably well-informed impression that this was strong AOR music without ever being truly classic...and this personal view combined with the objective reality that Chalfant has always under-achieved commercially...led me to call him "C-list".

If he's A-list in your house though, then I have no argument with that ...

[Aaron]

Agreed 100% (although I REALLY like Valentine, that's my favorite CD). The question is would Journey have been able to continue as the greatest ever with Chalfant or Hugo in the mix? Comparing their efforts with Perry's solo work, I'd say yes. But who the hell knows. It's all good.

This year is just really friggin great. A new GOOD Journey cd, a new Valentine cd, and the Ramos/Hugo cd all in one year. I'm just about ready to piss myself with joy.

Not in their current form..but they were the greatest ever. Chalfant and Hugo were not the greatest ever....

[finalfight]

The Ramos Hugo collaboration should be great!