OT - Two Fires - Kevin Chalfant website

[Aaron]

Ditto on all accounts.

Arnel sounds like Perry, sound like Augeri and sounds like Jamison all on one cd. It's really kind of weird. But the dude can sing like a bastard. Hopefully he'll find his own sound in the future. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not a big fan of vocal chameleons.

Revelation it is not on repeat play for me, in fact I have barely listened to it at all and find that I am skipping a few tracks even at this early stage - Wildest Dreams, Change for the Betta! and After All These Years to be precise.

Overall despite being impressed I feel the album is all over the place vocally and sounds somewhat like a compilation of good vocalists. Arnel is pretty damn magnificent but he sounds very different on practically every song and as such its taking me a while to warm to the record. It has no real identity and feels a little like Mecca part II - I liked the first alot btw but barely listen to it at all now.

Change For the Better is a highlight for me but otherwise this is exactly how I feel about the record too, Finalflight.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I disagree. He crossed the line on that song into pure impersonation. I suspect you're only giving Arnel a pass here because you were so full of praise for this song in particular when the album came out.

No proverbial line on “Like a Sunshower” has been crossed. Arnel isn’t copying Perry’s specific vocal delivery of the song. How could he? It’s new material. No line was ever laid down beforehand to be crossed in the first place. If we’re going to take singers to task simply for emulating other people’s vocal styles, then you may as well start with Perry ripping off Sam Cooke.

Surely the issue here is whether or not Arnel is singing in his authentic voice? Sounding like Perry because that's the way God made him is one thing. Faking it to sound like Perry is another...and that's exactly what Arnel is doing on Like A Sunshower.

My issue was with Arnel singing the re-recorded Journey hits almost identically to the existing Perry version. It’s akin to Perry releasing a Sam Cooke cover album and changing little to nothing of the original recordings. I really don’t care if Perryisms are sparingly used on new material as long as it sounds good. Arnel may be channeling Perry circa 1978 on Sunshower, but damn if it doesn’t sound great.

Again - the only question should be: is this singer singing in their natural voice or not?

I don’t have a big issue with any this.
I just think Disc 2 of Revelation at times amounts to vocal plagiarism, not in vocal timbre (Arnel can’t help that) but right down to the phrasing of lyrics.
The thin line between emulation and immitation is crossed more than I am comfortable with.

[Matthew]

No proverbial line on “Like a Sunshower” has been crossed. Arnel isn’t copying Perry’s specific vocal delivery of the song. How could he? It’s new material. No line was ever laid down beforehand to be crossed in the first place. If we’re going to take singers to task simply for emulating other people’s vocal styles, then you may as well start with Perry ripping off Sam Cooke.

No - because there's a difference between influence and impersonation. Sure, Arnel isn't copying an existing performance but he's certainly mimicking a specific voice from a specific era.

Also - Sam Cooke wasn't ever the lead singer of Journey. He never represented a lucrative golden age which the band were still trying to market. He wasn't even performing in the same genre of music. So taking those 1960s R N B influences into AOR/hard-rock a decade later involved far more creativity and invention than - say - Steve Augeri singing one line in Be Good to Youself which was marginally different from the original.

Arnel may be channeling Perry circa 1978 on Sunshower, but damn if it doesn’t sound great.

Channeling? You make it sound like some kind of a mystical process. The fact is...Arnel is singing in a phoney voice on this track.

I don’t have a big issue with any this.
I just think Disc 2 of Revelation at times amounts to vocal plagiarism, not in vocal timbre (Arnel can’t help that) but right down to the phrasing of lyrics.
The thin line between emulation and immitation is crossed more than I am comfortable with.

Let me get this straight. Authenticity isn't an issue with you. A singer can knowingly imitate someone else for cynical reasons. He can repress his real voice in order to create an illusion that a more famous and talented singer is in the band instead. That's all fine. But...if on a cover version they copy the inflections of the original...then a line has been crossed.

This is a pretty elaborate and bizarre value system you've got going here, TNC....

Maybe the key ingredient you're looking for then is invention. But when it comes to the classics the entire band have offered us slim pickings on that front. In fact, aside from Neal's brilliant solo on a live version of Happy To Give I can't actually think of any examples when I sat back and thought, "Wow...I like what they've done to that song." It's always just the same plodding recreation of the performances from a quarter of a century ago. Neal's soloing adds the occasional meagre variation of the kind which you seem so preoccupied with re: the vocals - but overall the band have been going through the motions with their back catalogue for a long time now. So I'd say that Disc 2 is part of a much wider problem than Schon and Cain's inability to let go of Perry.

[S2M]

We need a Journey history 101 link or required reading FAQ.

Chalfant performed as singer for Journey in the early 90's when Perry wasn't available. There was a plan to reform Journey, Chalfant as lead and Rolie returning to the group.

Many believe this motivated Perry to come back for TBF. A spoiler if you will.

So to say Chalfant couldn't cut it is ridiculous. He's been recording professionally since the '70s.

707
The VU
Shooting Star
The Storm
Two Fires
Solo work

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Chalfant

Wow.....I know something Wikipedia doesn't know....They forgot this Chalfant work:

STEEL BREEZE

http://www.heavyharmonies.com/cgi-bin/glamcd.cgi?BandNum=2333&CDName=Heart+On+The+Line

[texafana]

"Arnel is pretty damn magnificent but he sounds very different on practically every song and as such its taking me a while to warm to the record."

That is exactly why he has the "chance" of staying around longer than we expect. His voice is very versatile. Even Perry did a few vocal chameleons from time to time. (raspy to clear, etc..)

[finalfight]

"Arnel is pretty damn magnificent but he sounds very different on practically every song and as such its taking me a while to warm to the record."

That is exactly why he has the "chance" of staying around longer than we expect. His voice is very versatile. Even Perry did a few vocal chameleons from time to time. (raspy to clear, etc..)

But he was always recognisable as Perry. If someone played me some new Journey songs without me knowing who they were by I would like have said that one's Jimi Jamison, that one's Augeri and that sounds like Perry. I would never have known they were the same person.

[Since 78]

"Arnel is pretty damn magnificent but he sounds very different on practically every song and as such its taking me a while to warm to the record."

That is exactly why he has the "chance" of staying around longer than we expect. His voice is very versatile. Even Perry did a few vocal chameleons from time to time. (raspy to clear, etc..)

But he was always recognisable as Perry. If someone played me some new Journey songs without me knowing who there by I would like have said that ones Jimi Jamison, that one's Augeri and that sounds like Perry. I would never have known they were the same person.

One exception, on the beginning of Captured by the moment, I was like who is this and thought I had downloaded a mislabeled song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq5___m59ko

[StoneCold]

"Arnel is pretty damn magnificent but he sounds very different on practically every song and as such its taking me a while to warm to the record."

That is exactly why he has the "chance" of staying around longer than we expect. His voice is very versatile. Even Perry did a few vocal chameleons from time to time. (raspy to clear, etc..)

But he was always recognisable as Perry. If someone played me some new Journey songs without me knowing who there by I would like have said that ones Jimi Jamison, that one's Augeri and that sounds like Perry. I would never have known they were the same person.

One exception, on the beginning of Captured by the moment, I was like who is this and thought I had downloaded a mislabeled song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq5___m59ko

Good example. Up until 00:35, Perry sings in a voice unlike anything he'd recorded before that album. I think AP can approximate this as well. If not now, easily after a couple years of touring.

[The_Noble_Cause]

No proverbial line on “Like a Sunshower” has been crossed. Arnel isn’t copying Perry’s specific vocal delivery of the song. How could he? It’s new material. No line was ever laid down beforehand to be crossed in the first place. If we’re going to take singers to task simply for emulating other people’s vocal styles, then you may as well start with Perry ripping off Sam Cooke.

No - because there's a difference between influence and impersonation. Sure, Arnel isn't copying an existing performance but he's certainly mimicking a specific voice from a specific era.

It’s an original song, and he sounds great. Cherone’s decent Hagar impression on Van Halen III did little to detract from the few good songs on it. I really don’t have a big problem with this. My criterion for new Journey material really begins and ends if I like what I’m hearing.

Also - Sam Cooke wasn't ever the lead singer of Journey. He never represented a lucrative golden age which the band were still trying to market. He wasn't even performing in the same genre of music. So taking those 1960s R N B influences into AOR/hard-rock a decade later involved far more creativity and invention than - say - Steve Augeri singing one line in Be Good to Youself which was marginally different from the original.

Irrelevant.

Arnel may be channeling Perry circa 1978 on Sunshower, but damn if it doesn’t sound great.

Channeling? You make it sound like some kind of a mystical process. The fact is...Arnel is singing in a phoney voice on this track.

I would say that on this particular song, Arnel is interpreting the material in a Perry fashion. That the band wanted to carry on in the “legacy sound” is not some KFC 11 secret herbs and spices-type trade secret. Their intentions are clear. Though sheerly as a vocal sleight of hand, it is a masterful one.

I don’t have a big issue with any this.
I just think Disc 2 of Revelation at times amounts to vocal plagiarism, not in vocal timbre (Arnel can’t help that) but right down to the phrasing of lyrics.
The thin line between emulation and immitation is crossed more than I am comfortable with.

Let me get this straight. Authenticity isn't an issue with you. A singer can knowingly imitate someone else for cynical reasons. He can repress his real voice in order to create an illusion that a more famous and talented singer is in the band instead. That's all fine. But...if on a cover version they copy the inflections of the original...then a line has been crossed.

This is a pretty elaborate and bizarre value system you've got going here, TNC....

I’m not sure what you’re arguing.
“Like a Sunshower” is one song amidst an album, that you agreed, features Arnel mainly doing his own thing. Like Jeff Soto amping the Perry inflections to 11 on Sirkus’s “Coming Home”, I view it more as a tribute than a con. Copying Perry’s vocal track on pre-existing material, however, is an altogether different matter. As someone who indiscriminately believes both Chalfant and Augeri were outright imitating Perry’s voice, I wouldn't expect you to understand.

[StoneCold]

On LAS, Arnel sounds more Augeri than Perry. As has been mentioned before, Arnel is across the board vocally on Revelation and its a plus.

You can't pin him down as simply a soundalike. He's got a flexible range like no other post Perry singer.

[Matthew]

It’s an original song, and he sounds great. Cherone’s decent Hagar impression on Van Halen III did little to detract from the few good songs on it. I really don’t have a big problem with this.

I'm still failing to grasp why you have no problem with impersonators on original songs....yet feel compelled to thunder on about how shameful it is when when the impersonator sings the classics. But at this late stage of the conversation maybe it's time to let it go...

Irrelevant.

I notice this is the word you often use when you clearly have no clue about how to respond...

I would say that on this particular song, Arnel is interpreting the material in a Perry fashion. That the band wanted to carry on in the “legacy sound” is not some KFC 11 secret herbs and spices-type trade secret. Their intentions are clear. Though sheerly as a vocal sleight of hand, it is a masterful one.

I love this: "interpreting the material in a Perry fashion." With this gift for euphemism you ought to get a job in the press department of the Pentagon, TNC.

I’m not sure what you’re arguing.
“Like a Sunshower” is one song amidst an album, that you agreed, features Arnel mainly doing his own thing. Like Jeff Soto amping the Perry inflections to 11 on Sirkus’s “Coming Home”, I view it more as a tribute than a con. Copying Perry’s vocal track on pre-existing material, however, is an altogether different matter. As someone who indiscriminately believes both Chalfant and Augeri were outright imitating Perry’s voice, I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Okay - I've spent about three minutes listening to Disc 2 and I can already detect about five 'nuances' or 'gradations' or 'flourishes' or whatever you want to call this subtle technique that allows Chalfant and Augeri a free pass from the criticisms you're levelling at Arnel.

For example, there's one at the 3.38 mark on Only The Young. Another at 3.50 on Don't Stop Believin'. I'm sure I could find about a hundred others if I didn't have a life I needed to get on with.

[The_Noble_Cause]

It’s an original song, and he sounds great. Cherone’s decent Hagar impression on Van Halen III did little to detract from the few good songs on it. I really don’t have a big problem with this.

I'm still failing to grasp why you have no problem with impersonators on original songs....yet feel compelled to thunder on about how shameful it is when when the impersonator sings the classics. But at this late stage of the conversation maybe it's time to let it go...

If a song is an original work, what's being impersonated?
In such a case, there is only a particular style an artist may pay tribute to.
And it’s only one song, so who gives a fuck?

Irrelevant.

I notice this is the word you often use when you clearly have no clue about how to respond...

To tell ya’ the truth, I feel this way about every one of your posts. Last week you were defending Arnel tooth and nail, and now you wish to debate the ethics of hiring soundalikes. It seems to me, as Strange Grey intimated earlier, you are just taking up the cudgels for the sake of shit starting. It’s all very tiring. If you’re not secretly Reardon pulling my plonker and having a cheap laugh, I truly pity you.

I deemed your comment “irrelevant” because you admitted Perry stole another singer’s style (i.e. Sam Cooke), but then offered up the thinnest of excuses that since Cooke sang a different genre this type of vocal thievery is somehow OK.

I would say that on this particular song, Arnel is interpreting the material in a Perry fashion. That the band wanted to carry on in the “legacy sound” is not some KFC 11 secret herbs and spices-type trade secret. Their intentions are clear. Though sheerly as a vocal sleight of hand, it is a masterful one.

I love this: "interpreting the material in a Perry fashion." With this gift for euphemism you ought to get a job in the press department of the Pentagon, TNC.

I have no horse in this race. I don’t care if Arnel is deported tomorrow.
However, if a song is an original, I fail to see how he is “impersonating” Perry's vocal, or using a “phony voice.”
He is using Perry's inflections, the same way Perry used Sam's all his recording career.

Okay - I've spent about three minutes listening to Disc 2 and I can already detect about five 'nuances' or 'gradations' or 'flourishes' or whatever you want to call this subtle technique that allows Chalfant and Augeri a free pass from the criticisms you're leveling at Arnel.

For example, there's one at the 3.38 mark on Only The Young. Another at 3.50 on Don't Stop Believin'. I'm sure I could find about a hundred others if I didn't have a life I needed to get on with.

I never denied that differences existed, but they are few. Arnel extends a few notes longer than Perry, but, as others have noted, by and large, it sounds like Arnel is reciting these songs phonetically. Augeri and Chalfant never copied Perry’s phrasing. Augeri spoke of how he tried to relate the material in his own way. If you don’t hear it, I don’t care.

[Matthew]

To tell ya’ the truth, I feel this way about every one of your posts. Last week you were defending Arnel tooth and nail, and now you wish to debate the ethics of hiring soundalikes. It seems to me, as Strange Grey intimated earlier, you are just taking up the cudgels for the sake of shit starting. It’s all very tiring. If you’re not secretly Reardon pulling my plonker and having a cheap laugh, I truly pity you.

Don't play the Reardon card just because someone has taken issue with a couple of your posts. Lame.

As for the rest...well, we're going around in circles and your entire criticism of Arnel now seems to be so unbelievably petty that I can't believe I'm taking issue with you about it.

Essentially, your problem as I understand it is that there aren't enough original inflections on Disc 2. You say there are new inflections - which already disproves your original criticism that his performance was an exact copy of Perry - but not as many as on the Chalfant covers album.

Well TNC...you're probably right....so let's just agree on that shall we?

[Red13JoePa]

If you’re not secretly Reardon pulling my plonker

LOL

[Matthew]

If you’re not secretly Reardon pulling my plonker

LOL

Okay...maybe that was a good one...annoyingly.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Don't play the Reardon card just because someone has taken issue with a couple of your posts. Lame.

As for the rest...well, we're going around in circles and your entire criticism of Arnel now seems to be so unbelievably petty that I can't believe I'm taking issue with you about it.

Essentially, your problem as I understand it is that there aren't enough original inflections on Disc 2. You say there are new inflections - which already disproves your original criticism that his performance was an exact copy of Perry - but not as many as on the Chalfant covers album.

Well TNC...you're probably right....so let's just agree on that shall we?

Arnel is copying Perry right down to the delivery on the "new" Greatest Hits. It's that simple.
Augeri's studio work on Vegas 2001 and Chalfant's Fly2Freedom are not the same thing.
As I've stressed all through this thread, the line between emulation and impersonation is a thin one, but the band has def. crossed it on Disc 2.

[Matthew]

Don't play the Reardon card just because someone has taken issue with a couple of your posts. Lame.

As for the rest...well, we're going around in circles and your entire criticism of Arnel now seems to be so unbelievably petty that I can't believe I'm taking issue with you about it.

Essentially, your problem as I understand it is that there aren't enough original inflections on Disc 2. You say there are new inflections - which already disproves your original criticism that his performance was an exact copy of Perry - but not as many as on the Chalfant covers album.

Well TNC...you're probably right....so let's just agree on that shall we?

Arnel is copying Perry right down to the delivery on the "new" Greatest Hits. It's that simple.
Augeri's studio work on Vegas 2001 and Chalfant's Fly2Freedom are not the same thing.
As I've stressed all through this thread, the line between emulation and impersonation is a thin one, but the band has def. crossed it on Disc 2.

However Arnel is still singing in his natural voice even though the inventiveness of his phrasing is possibly even more minimal than that of Augeri and Chalfant's...which is saying something. So I dont think it is a case of straight impersonation. It is rather a lack of imagination and courage. I also think Journey 'crossed the line' in terms of ruining their credibility back in 1998 and that Disc 2 is just the latest chapter of the same strategy.

So there we have our concluding arguments...which after three weeks of debate are exactly the same as they were at the start. The usual story with messageboards...

[MarcelJordan]

So there we have our concluding arguments...which after three weeks of debate are exactly the same as they were at the start. The usual story with messageboards...

Exhausting to say the least for those looking in quietly.

[The_Noble_Cause]

However Arnel is still singing in his natural voice even though the inventiveness of his phrasing is possibly even more minimal than that of Augeri and Chalfant's...which is saying something.

Yup.

So I dont think it is a case of straight impersonation. It is rather a lack of imagination and courage..

That, and the fact Arnel was thrown into the lion's den very early.
With some actual Journey tours under his belt, maybe he would have made these songs his own.