Double counting a double album for RIAA cert, is it right?

[Gordon from Edinburgh]

This argument could go either way but, in the end, the rules are what they are and, when they have filed for the gold certification, it will rightly qualify. That's good publicity any way you cut it and most people probably won't even know the difference.

Well said - its an interesting topic tho.

[Memorex]

What they should have done was have a one-time download password somewhere on the sleeve. You buy the new CD, and if you want the re-makes, then you go to their website and download it using the password.

This way they would be able to accurately track who was really interested in the remakes.

I think walmart believes the impulse buy is for the re-records. Without them, this package does not sell nearly as much.

I got to disagree. The Greatest Hits recharted the same week and sales have increased so the ones that wanted GH bought the original. Most fans wanted to check out the new music but not the rerecords. The thing sold. Worst case scenario, very,very few would not have sold if it wasn't for the rerecords.

Given the same price, or close to it, the new package seems more attractive. That package may not be as attractive without the re-records. Side by side, more for your money, volume-wise, with the new package. The overall promotion put Journey back in the public eye and people went out and bought the greatest hits separately (or in addition to).

My main point stands - without the re-records, people may not have been as willing to shell out for the new stuff. They hadn't in the past. But including it makes it a great impulse buy.

[Sarah]

Hmm. I agree that since the two dics are different types of material, maybe there should be some recognition BUT what bothers me most about this rule is that when it goes platinum, it's because only 500k people own it instead of the 1 million that single CDs have to work for. the platinum status is deceiving because not as many people bought it...

[separate_wayz]

Hmm. I agree that since the two dics are different types of material, maybe there should be some recognition BUT what bothers me most about this rule is that when it goes platinum, it's because only 500k people own it instead of the 1 million that single CDs have to work for. the platinum status is deceiving because not as many people bought it...

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. The RIAA certification is for "units sold", not for "number of people who own the album". If we're going to make adjustments, then probably my 4 cassette copies of 'Frontiers' need to adjusted downward to 1 -- back in the '80s, the tape player kept eating my tapes, so I had to keep buying new ones.

The way I look at it is this: Journey is hitting on all cylinders now. They have an unofficial-gold CD that will likely go platinum within a few months (maybe even multi-platinum), the fans are buying tickets and enjoying the shows, the concerts are selling-out, the album and one hit song are climbing the Billboard charts, the new singer is getting rave reviews from fans and critics alike, fans can't post their favorite concert song on youtube fast enough, each week we're getting great new surprises (like the mp3 player), the band is hanging out with Jimmy Page for gosh sakes ...... This sure is better than any of a number of alternatives ...... Who would've thought this could happen six months ago?!?

Let's not begrudge them a little respect and admiration for their success, and enjoy it for ourselves too .....

[strangegrey]

Hmm. I agree that since the two dics are different types of material, maybe there should be some recognition BUT what bothers me most about this rule is that when it goes platinum, it's because only 500k people own it instead of the 1 million that single CDs have to work for. the platinum status is deceiving because not as many people bought it...

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. The RIAA certification is for "units sold", not for "number of people who own the album". If we're going to make adjustments, then probably my 4 cassette copies of 'Frontiers' need to adjusted downward to 1 -- back in the '80s, the tape player kept eating my tapes, so I had to keep buying new ones.

Well, that's misleading in itself. Because when most people perceive the gold, platinum, diamond awards, the general understanding out there in the world is that it's a certification for copies of an album. It is entirely misleading to suggest that a double album get some double count, when priced at a point that is aggressively priced for a single CD. I'm all for free markets...that's not the point here.

I applaud Journey for doing what people have been screaming for for years, which is to lower the fucking price of CDs. The point I'm making is that it's not a transparent and clear picture of an album's success. Would you like it if your work was evaluated based on how much money you make? In such a world, the guy in the cube next to you, doing the same job as you, would get favorable review for turning in the same type of work you did, and you got an unfavorable review for turning in the same work...just because you make a little less than double the guy. Not good.

The point here is not to punish Journey for releasing a good album that's getting critical acclaim (despite the festering crap that this band has created over the past several years) and selling records....

...The point here is to determine whether or not this is an appropriate and addequate measurement of the band's success, given the particulars. It's *not* transparent and clear, in my eyes. Journey's platinum certification (when it happens) will not have the same merit and value as say, Brad Paisley's platinum cert for 5th Gear, which I know he worked DAMN hard for and toured like a mother fucker to achieve. He's hamstrung by his record company deal, which forces his price point...meaning he's competing with unfair circumstances. Journey has to do half the work, becuase they slipped a second CD into the jacket (for probably 50cents a unit).

Let's not begrudge them a little respect and admiration for their success, and enjoy it for ourselves too .....

Again, this isn't about Journey. Journey just happens to be the reason I find this topic interesting. I simply do not consider this double count process a clear and transparent measure of success....Journey appears to be competing on a different (lower) financial level....more power to em.

But it waters down the representation of what "platinum" means for artists in the 90s, 80s, 70s, etc....

[Lora]

Again, this isn't about Journey. Journey just happens to be the reason I find this topic interesting. I simply do not consider this double count process a clear and transparent measure of success....Journey appears to be competing on a different (lower) financial level....more power to em.

But it waters down the representation of what "platinum" means for artists in the 90s, 80s, 70s, etc....

It kinda scares me when I agree with you about something.

[strangegrey]

Again, this isn't about Journey. Journey just happens to be the reason I find this topic interesting. I simply do not consider this double count process a clear and transparent measure of success....Journey appears to be competing on a different (lower) financial level....more power to em.

But it waters down the representation of what "platinum" means for artists in the 90s, 80s, 70s, etc....

It kinda scares me when I agree with you about something.

LOL. I'm sure there's a drink, food or color we like in common as well!

[Monker]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. The RIAA certification is for "units sold", not for "number of people who own the album".

"Revelation" did not sell gold. The PACKAGE of Revelation, Recollection, and the DVD sold enough to become gold because there are two CD's.

THAT is the issue I have with this. If the RIAA wants to have some special award for CD 'packages" like this and not consider them the same as "double albums", then I would not have any issue with it. In fact, they should just consider them 'box sets'...and force releases like this to be called the "Revelation box set" in order to be certified with only half the count.

As I asked before, what if Steve Perry releases a new CD on Sony and they include a newly rereremastered Journey GH CD...and it goes platinum/2? Should Perry's CD also get certified platinum? What if Sony releases a CD package of ROREscape/Frontiers...the going argument here is one of those CD's should get the awards. That is what is wrong with the "rule".

[Rick]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. The RIAA certification is for "units sold", not for "number of people who own the album".

"Revelation" did not sell gold. The PACKAGE of Revelation, Recollection, and the DVD sold enough to become gold because there are two CD's.

THAT is the issue I have with this. If the RIAA wants to have some special award for CD 'packages" like this and not consider them the same as "double albums", then I would not have any issue with it. In fact, they should just consider them 'box sets'...and force releases like this to be called the "Revelation box set" in order to be certified with only half the count.

As I asked before, what if Steve Perry releases a new CD on Sony and they include a newly rereremastered Journey GH CD...and it goes platinum/2? Should Perry's CD also get certified platinum? What if Sony releases a CD package of ROREscape/Frontiers...the going argument here is one of those CD's should get the awards. That is what is wrong with the "rule".

Journey had done everything within the rules to have a gold cd. They recorded 22+ songs, put them on 2 cd's. Every time a purchase is made, 2 cd's are sold. Who cares if it's $4.99 or $49.99. The price is irrelevant.

[Monker]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. The RIAA certification is for "units sold", not for "number of people who own the album".

"Revelation" did not sell gold. The PACKAGE of Revelation, Recollection, and the DVD sold enough to become gold because there are two CD's.

THAT is the issue I have with this. If the RIAA wants to have some special award for CD 'packages" like this and not consider them the same as "double albums", then I would not have any issue with it. In fact, they should just consider them 'box sets'...and force releases like this to be called the "Revelation box set" in order to be certified with only half the count.

As I asked before, what if Steve Perry releases a new CD on Sony and they include a newly rereremastered Journey GH CD...and it goes platinum/2? Should Perry's CD also get certified platinum? What if Sony releases a CD package of ROREscape/Frontiers...the going argument here is one of those CD's should get the awards. That is what is wrong with the "rule".

Journey had done everything within the rules to have a gold cd. They recorded 22+ songs, put them on 2 cd's. Every time a purchase is made, 2 cd's are sold. Who cares if it's $4.99 or $49.99. The price is irrelevant.

Your reply makes absolutely NO SENSE.

I did not say Journey did not "play by the rules",or did not 'earn' gold status under the current 'rules'.

I did not say anything about how much it costs.

Nothing you said has anything to do with the post your replied to.

[journeypower]

Piracy ain't right as well. so we shouldn't be making a big deal out of what RIAA says. if piracy was only prevalent during the 90s, I would also believe that TBF would had suffered as well. those were the days were cassette tapes were still cool and CDs were supercool.

the piracy problem has taken a higher notch. the quality can be equated or even surpassed that of an original. technology is EVIL !!!

[Red13JoePa]

All I heard up and down the online communities before the album was put out was "NObody will want the rerecords, that's a joke, this thing will tank."

Now it's driving sales as an "impulse buy."

Who the hell impulse buys music anyway? You impulse buy a bag of Doritos (11 if you're a female fan of these bands ) at the checkout line, you don't walk to the back of Walmart, where the music always is, waltz into the music section and impuse buy cds.
People wanted it, they've gotten it to the tune of half a million so far.

[journeypower]

All I heard up and down the online communities before the album was put out was "NObody will want the rerecords, that's a joke, this thing will tank."

Now it's driving sales as an "impulse buy."

Who the hell impulse buys music anyway? You impulse buy a bag of Doritos (11 if you're a female fan of these bands ) at the checkout line, you don't walk to the back of Walmart, where the music always is, waltz into the music section and impuse buy cds.
People wanted it, they've gotten it to the tune of half a million so far.

some people just don't want to admit that they were wrong, even if it's leaving the failed prophecy behind then create a new one. some people just love anarchy. won't be surprised if a new alibi of "sympathy buying" comes out sooner or later!

[Saint John]

Frank brings up the argument of pricing, and while his position is logical I submit to you that the old system of pricing was wrong and that the new one is right. People were probably priced out of buying double CDs they wanted in the past and are now able to buy them because they are affordable. I think a CD should only cost 5 or 6 bucks and Wal Mart and the bands that they market are the pioneers in bringing music prices to where they should have been all along.

That said, it is extremely hard to deny that the price isn't a major reason people are taking a "flyer" on the CD...it is. However, the fact that sales have now leveled off instead of decreasing weekly suggests that the tour is supporting the album...like it's supposed to. I also think people are looking too hard to find reasons to invalidate the success of this package. Journey has always had a history of management innovation and Azoff has seemingly opened up a goldmine by coupling the world's largest retailer with a stable of historically monstrous selling bands. And we all thought this guy didn't know what he was doing...and it sure seemed for awhile that he didn't.

[journeypower]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. The RIAA certification is for "units sold", not for "number of people who own the album".

"Revelation" did not sell gold. The PACKAGE of Revelation, Recollection, and the DVD sold enough to become gold because there are two CD's.

THAT is the issue I have with this. If the RIAA wants to have some special award for CD 'packages" like this and not consider them the same as "double albums", then I would not have any issue with it. In fact, they should just consider them 'box sets'...and force releases like this to be called the "Revelation box set" in order to be certified with only half the count.

As I asked before, what if Steve Perry releases a new CD on Sony and they include a newly rereremastered Journey GH CD...and it goes platinum/2? Should Perry's CD also get certified platinum? What if Sony releases a CD package of ROREscape/Frontiers...the going argument here is one of those CD's should get the awards. That is what is wrong with the "rule".

Journey had done everything within the rules to have a gold cd. They recorded 22+ songs, put them on 2 cd's. Every time a purchase is made, 2 cd's are sold. Who cares if it's $4.99 or $49.99. The price is irrelevant.

sorry Rick. price is not irrelevant. $11.98 is too much money to spend on a worthless CD, right?
$11.98 is no loose change as some few people might think. with the U.S.'s present economic turmoil, any american would save that $11.98 for something to eat, buy starbucks coffee, use for fare or gas. gee, I guess a quarter of a million people are out of their minds and a few more in the process. lol.

simple explanation: "If I like it, I buy it. If it sucks, I'll just donate the 11.98 to the homeless"

[Memorex]

All I heard up and down the online communities before the album was put out was "NObody will want the rerecords, that's a joke, this thing will tank."

Now it's driving sales as an "impulse buy."

Who the hell impulse buys music anyway? You impulse buy a bag of Doritos (11 if you're a female fan of these bands ) at the checkout line, you don't walk to the back of Walmart, where the music always is, waltz into the music section and impuse buy cds.
People wanted it, they've gotten it to the tune of half a million so far.

You don't think CD's are impulse buys? That's just crazy. I assure you that 300,000 people did not march to Walmart to buy Revelation. At that price for a three disc set, it can very well classify as a last minute "what the hell, might as well" kind of purchase.

As far as what was heard up and down the online community... People on line are more savy towards Journey's "latest" than your average Walmart shopper. What you heard was we, as online folks, were not interested but that walmart shoppers would be duped into thinking they were getting the greatest hits. The package is marked well enough for people who want to read it. But a lot of people just glance, flip it over, look at the track listing, and throw it in their cart. That's my take anyway.

This is not to say that there are not a significant number of people (in today's numbers) looking for it and wanting exactly what it offers. But I assure you a number of people don't realize exacty what it is.

You think I am under estimating the Walmart public? How many times have you heard about people going to an actual Journey concert and saying, "I didn't know Steve perry was gone..."?

[Memorex]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. The RIAA certification is for "units sold", not for "number of people who own the album".

"Revelation" did not sell gold. The PACKAGE of Revelation, Recollection, and the DVD sold enough to become gold because there are two CD's.

THAT is the issue I have with this. If the RIAA wants to have some special award for CD 'packages" like this and not consider them the same as "double albums", then I would not have any issue with it. In fact, they should just consider them 'box sets'...and force releases like this to be called the "Revelation box set" in order to be certified with only half the count.

As I asked before, what if Steve Perry releases a new CD on Sony and they include a newly rereremastered Journey GH CD...and it goes platinum/2? Should Perry's CD also get certified platinum? What if Sony releases a CD package of ROREscape/Frontiers...the going argument here is one of those CD's should get the awards. That is what is wrong with the "rule".

Journey had done everything within the rules to have a gold cd. They recorded 22+ songs, put them on 2 cd's. Every time a purchase is made, 2 cd's are sold. Who cares if it's $4.99 or $49.99. The price is irrelevant.

sorry Rick. price is not irrelevant. $11.98 is too much money to spend on a worthless CD, right?
$11.98 is no loose change as some few people might think. with the U.S.'s present economic turmoil, any american would save that $11.98 for something to eat, buy starbucks coffee, use for fare or gas. gee, I guess a quarter of a million people are out of their minds and a few more in the process. lol.

simple explanation: "If I like it, I buy it. If it sucks, I'll just donate the 11.98 to the homeless"

People will also spend $11.98 to buy something that takes them out of reality for a few moments in today's depressing times. Attempt to read one Batman article about it's record breaking weekend without that being mentioned.

[journeypower]

aside from journey, which singer/band who had a 2/3disc offer + goodies with the same price or cheaper than Revelation went gold status? argument here is just because it's cheap that people would have the impulse to buy it? certainly not. customers maybe cheapskates, but they aren't idiots. they would look for the value of their money. a $5 dollar cd with a crappy recording is not a sell-out, it's a waste of money.

[Red13JoePa]

Revelation's no more or less an impulse buy than anything on the charts.

[Saint John]

You think I am under estimating the Walmart public? How many times have you heard about people going to an actual Journey concert and saying, "I didn't know Steve perry was gone..."?

Never...not once ever. Are you honestly telling me people couldn't tell the difference between him and Augeri??? lol...give me a break. They announce the fucking names of the band members at every show!!! It was the same people year after year after year attending. You're really insulting Journey fans in general and diminishing Perry's ability to stir the soul. Augeri, while good in his first few years, never came close to being Perry. At a minimum, well over 90% of concert goers knew that steve Perry was not on that stage.

[Behshad]

You think I am under estimating the Walmart public? How many times have you heard about people going to an actual Journey concert and saying, "I didn't know Steve perry was gone..."?

Never...not once ever. Are you honestly telling me people couldn't tell the difference between him and Augeri??? lol...give me a break. They announce the fucking names of the band members at every show!!! It was the same people year after year after year attending. You're really insulting Journey fans in general and diminishing Perry's ability to stir the soul. Augeri, while good in his first few years, never came close to being Perry. At a minimum, well over 90% of concert goers knew that steve Perry was not on that stage.

Sorry to inform you this Saint John, but 2 years ago, people were congratulating Jeff, while wondering what happend to PERRY, not AUGERI...... now thats fucked up!!

[conversationpc]

You think I am under estimating the Walmart public? How many times have you heard about people going to an actual Journey concert and saying, "I didn't know Steve perry was gone..."?

Never...not once ever. Are you honestly telling me people couldn't tell the difference between him and Augeri??? lol...give me a break. They announce the fucking names of the band members at every show!!! It was the same people year after year after year attending. You're really insulting Journey fans in general and diminishing Perry's ability to stir the soul. Augeri, while good in his first few years, never came close to being Perry. At a minimum, well over 90% of concert goers knew that steve Perry was not on that stage.

There are a ton of people that still don't know Perry wasn't in the band anymore.

[Memorex]

You think I am under estimating the Walmart public? How many times have you heard about people going to an actual Journey concert and saying, "I didn't know Steve perry was gone..."?

Never...not once ever. Are you honestly telling me people couldn't tell the difference between him and Augeri??? lol...give me a break. They announce the fucking names of the band members at every show!!! It was the same people year after year after year attending. You're really insulting Journey fans in general and diminishing Perry's ability to stir the soul. Augeri, while good in his first few years, never came close to being Perry. At a minimum, well over 90% of concert goers knew that steve Perry was not on that stage.

You misunderstood. I meant to say they went to the concert thinking it was Steve Perry but then uttered those words when someone else came out.

That being said - there are still likely people out there that wouldn't know the difference if it was Rosanne Barr coming out to sing. They see the name Journey...

[Saint John]

You think I am under estimating the Walmart public? How many times have you heard about people going to an actual Journey concert and saying, "I didn't know Steve perry was gone..."?

Never...not once ever. Are you honestly telling me people couldn't tell the difference between him and Augeri??? lol...give me a break. They announce the fucking names of the band members at every show!!! It was the same people year after year after year attending. You're really insulting Journey fans in general and diminishing Perry's ability to stir the soul. Augeri, while good in his first few years, never came close to being Perry. At a minimum, well over 90% of concert goers knew that steve Perry was not on that stage.

There are a ton of people that still don't know Perry wasn't in the band anymore.

Dave, I've honestly never had that experience. Everyone called him the "new guy." While some couldn't always tell you the name, they knew Perry wasn't there. One listen pretty much told you that.

[Memorex]

Revelation's no more or less an impulse buy than anything on the charts.

Mostly I agree. Except - adding in the greatest hits and a DVD with no price increase makes it more attractive than let's say the new Kenny Loggins CD (Target Exclusive). To buy Kenny's, you have to want to explore new music never heard before, period. If he packaged his greatest hits with it, less risk. You get all the hits and a chance to hear some new stuff. Throw a DVD in there and wow - this is a can't lose!

As far as "anything on the charts", most of that is familiar to the public because it's played to death on the radio. I'd say it is more impulse than some of that well-known stuff. Those CD's do not need 3 discs at bargin bin prices to sell.

[slucero]

hmmm... I remember back in 1981, a fella named Tom Petty refused to release an album called "Hard Promises", because the label wanted to sell it for $1 more than the then normal price for albums.... and here we are arguing that $11.98 is too cheap a price....

From Wikipedia...

"In early 1981, the upcoming Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers album, which would become Hard Promises, was slated to be the next MCA release with the new list price of $9.98, following Steely Dan's Gaucho and the Olivia Newton-John/Electric Light Orchestra Xanadu soundtrack. This so-called "superstar pricing" was $1.00 more than the usual list price of $8.98.[19] Petty voiced his objections to the price hike in the press and the issue became a popular cause among music fans. Non-delivery of the album and naming it Eight Ninety-Eight were considered, but eventually MCA decided against the price increase."

[Memorex]

So it begs the question. Spider Man 3 or The Dark Knight? Spider Man three sold more opening weekend tickets, but Dark Knight sold more $ because of price increases. So which should be number one? We count it based on the system of $.

And would The Dark Knight have sold as many tickets if this had of happened on Thursday?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/Movies/07/22/bale.questioned.ap/index.html

[Saint John]

Revelation's no more or less an impulse buy than anything on the charts.

Mostly I agree. Except - adding in the greatest hits and a DVD with no price increase makes it more attractive than let's say the new Kenny Loggins CD (Target Exclusive). To buy Kenny's, you have to want to explore new music never heard before, period. If he packaged his greatest hits with it, less risk. You get all the hits and a chance to hear some new stuff. Throw a DVD in there and wow - this is a can't lose!

As far as "anything on the charts", most of that is familiar to the public because it's played to death on the radio. I'd say it is more impulse than some of that well-known stuff. Those CD's do not need 3 discs at bargin bin prices to sell.

Good points.

[Memorex]

hmmm... I remember back in 1981, a fella named Tom Petty refused to release an album called "Hard Promises", because the label wanted to sell it for $1 more than the then normal price for albums.... and here we are arguing that $11.98 is too cheap a price....

From Wikipedia...

"In early 1981, the upcoming Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers album, which would become Hard Promises, was slated to be the next MCA release with the new list price of $9.98, following Steely Dan's Gaucho and the Olivia Newton-John/Electric Light Orchestra Xanadu soundtrack. This so-called "superstar pricing" was $1.00 more than the usual list price of $8.98.[19] Petty voiced his objections to the price hike in the press and the issue became a popular cause among music fans. Non-delivery of the album and naming it Eight Ninety-Eight were considered, but eventually MCA decided against the price increase."

Name anything that cost $8.98 in 1981 that costs less than $11.98 today.

I'm sure there are things, but you get my point.

[Memorex]

Bottom line to all of this is Journey made the right decision to sell CD's. Do I agree on an artistic level - absolutely not. I think they sold their soul. But I'm sure it's not the first time. And you have to do what you have to do, depending on your goals and financial needs.

If Perry was in the mix, the money would have been there without all the extra stuff. And it sounds like they will do pretty well on the tour. Hopefully next time out they will take longer to write and not have to do some of the things they "had" to do here.