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Postby Matthew » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:44 am

Red13JoePa wrote:
ProgRocker53 wrote:Keep in mind, however, that without Deano's contribution Journey could be dead and buried as well. They were on a slippery slope that started with the lipping, Dean outing them and them bringing JSS off the bench was what kept the band alived.



:roll:

Proggo, that whole situation would have sorted itself out sooner than later.
Burning them at the stake in effigy online was not a "contribution" to the band.


Do you think so Red? Maybe they would have just carried on in much the same way that Def Leppard seem to? I've always thought it was partly the intensity of the outrage and controversy that forced the issue....
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Postby Red13JoePa » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:49 am

Yes, I DO think it would've sorted itself out sooner rather than later.

He either would've quit or they'd've pink slipped him.

If you think it would've gone on ad infinatum than you subscribe to the theory that the tapes began playing almost immediately w/ Augeri coming into the band (which since you also accuse DL, I guess you do).

I don't see it that way.
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Postby Rip Rokken » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:02 am

Natalie wrote:Image


What's that -- a picture of all the asses from WTF together? LOL! B and Rick not included, of course...

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Postby CatEyes » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:01 am

StoneCold wrote:Let me see if I'm up to date here.

1. WTF was created so peeps could stay in contact/interact with RD.
2. RD made accusations Andrew took issue with and dealt with.
3. Now RD is suspended from the site created for him?

Has to be temporary or what's the point of another forum? Is it gonna be the backup MR for the banned?


Just to add a little info here:

1. WTF was created by Deano since he wasn't allowed to play here.
2. Deano got disgusted by "friends" pm'ing him with "he said/she said" and some of the usual stupid shit that goes on.
3. Deano got fedup and walked away from the site about 6 weeks ago and left it to whomever would pick-up the pieces.
3a. With Beshad at the helm, a few of us kicked in to keep the place running - mostly for people who are not comfortable posting at MR
4. Last week Deano got bored during his hiatus and re-appeared.
5. Deano began posting his opinions of Andrews reviews. No problem.
6. Deano accused Andrew of plagarism. Problem
7. Deano would not stop with the plagarism issue began ranting about being imprisoned by the mods and that he had no freedom os speech.
8. Deano doesn't have to worry about #7 any more.

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Postby Matthew » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:45 am

Red13JoePa wrote:Yes, I DO think it would've sorted itself out sooner rather than later.

He either would've quit or they'd've pink slipped him.

If you think it would've gone on ad infinatum than you subscribe to the theory that the tapes began playing almost immediately w/ Augeri coming into the band (which since you also accuse DL, I guess you do).

I don't see it that way.



I don't follow your logic Red. I don't subscribe to that theory at all - but I do think when Journey did cross that line the impetus for getting them back on track had to come from the outside. It wouldn't surprise me if the band were deep into the kind of rationalisations that can prevent or delay people acting on their good intentions....

As for DL...well, the rumours keep coming don't they? And the latest accusation came from that bloke from Poison recently. He's not necessarily a beacon of truth...but it did seem plausible I have to say. But who knows? And who cares? DL are just the kind of contrived, synthetic band who would not only do it but get away with it too....so I doubt anyone is taking it seriously.
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Postby Red13JoePa » Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:59 am

The DL rumors came from Dean but Brett Micheals was only talking about the Lip Synched TV performance DL just did.
He didn't accuse them of doing a tapegate.

The Augeri situation would've come to a swift and sure conclusion soon with or w/out tapegate. Both he and the band seemed ready to move on w/out eachother once they used whatever tapes they used after the second show of the Gens tour. Both Augeri and the band knew that couldn't go on forever, my guess is the DL tour would've been it for Augeri anyway.
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Postby Matthew » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:07 am

Red13JoePa wrote:The DL rumors came from Dean but Brett Micheals was only talking about the Lip Synched TV performance DL just did.
He didn't accuse them of doing a tapegate.


Oh...I thought he was referring to their live performance at the Swedish rock music festival that they were both performing at.

The Augeri situation would've come to a swift and sure conclusion soon with or w/out tapegate. Both he and the band seemed ready to move on w/out eachother once they used whatever tapes they used after the second show of the Gens tour. Both Augeri and the band knew that couldn't go on forever, my guess is the DL tour would've been it for Augeri anyway.


Actually...I think you're right about that...and I wonder if a feeling of creative inertia was more of a key reason to move on than the dishonesty ever was...
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:37 am

Gunbot wrote:This claim to fame shit about outing Steve Augeri is sickening. I am not a big fan of Augeri but without his contribution, Journey would be dead and buried.


Based on what?
Other candidates were looked at besides Augeri, and like Arnel, much of the new material was written without him.
Based on some of Neal's comments I get the feeling he wished he had chosen someone else.
If not Augeri, then someone else. Neal and Jon were intent on reaping the success of TBF one way or another.

Gunbot wrote:If he lipped, it was to his own vocals. How many other artists use backround vocals on the lead. I don't know and you people don't know but I bet there are quite a few. Anything he did was not by himself. Do you honestly think he could have a backing tape synced to him without the rest of the band knowing? If what he did was so bad the question is why you are all still fans. Neal and John run the band, they are just as guilty as Augeri for what happened, but Augeri is the bad guy? And once Jeff was in the band, tapegate suddenly isn't a big deal, Journey just did what they had to do? What fucking hypocrisy. If you're gonna crucify Augeri for lipping then his co-conspirators, JSS, Arnel and all the rest of Journey should be dead to you.


The personal character of the band was never in question - anyone who had been paying attention already knew the principal characters were pond scum.
Augeri, the blue-collar everyman, was naturally held up to a higher standard.

Jeff came on this forum and openly pledged never to lip.
A subtle way of acknowledging the scandal, and of leaving that dark chapter far behind in the past.
Of such strong personal mettle, few singers exist.
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Postby Red13JoePa » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:39 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Jeff came on this forum and openly pledged never to lip.
A subtle way of acknowledging the scandal


:lol: Subtle as a wrecking ball into the side of a building.
Castronovo used that same feather approach with his "I WILL NOT FUCKING LIPSYNCH!!!" in the 10/06 interview :lol:
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"Let's reform this thing.Let's go out and get some guys who want to work and go do it"--Neal Schon February, 2001
"I looked at Neal, and I just saw a guy who really wants his band back"-JCain 2/01
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Postby StoneCold » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:17 am

CatEyes wrote:
StoneCold wrote:Let me see if I'm up to date here.

1. WTF was created so peeps could stay in contact/interact with RD.
2. RD made accusations Andrew took issue with and dealt with.
3. Now RD is suspended from the site created for him?

Has to be temporary or what's the point of another forum? Is it gonna be the backup MR for the banned?


Just to add a little info here:

1. WTF was created by Deano since he wasn't allowed to play here.
2. Deano got disgusted by "friends" pm'ing him with "he said/she said" and some of the usual stupid shit that goes on.
3. Deano got fedup and walked away from the site about 6 weeks ago and left it to whomever would pick-up the pieces.
3a. With Beshad at the helm, a few of us kicked in to keep the place running - mostly for people who are not comfortable posting at MR
4. Last week Deano got bored during his hiatus and re-appeared.
5. Deano began posting his opinions of Andrews reviews. No problem.
6. Deano accused Andrew of plagarism. Problem
7. Deano would not stop with the plagarism issue began ranting about being imprisoned by the mods and that he had no freedom os speech.
8. Deano doesn't have to worry about #7 any more.

Cat


Thanks Cat.
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Postby StoneCold » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:27 am

Red13JoePa wrote:
ProgRocker53 wrote:Keep in mind, however, that without Deano's contribution Journey could be dead and buried as well. They were on a slippery slope that started with the lipping, Dean outing them and them bringing JSS off the bench was what kept the band alived.



:roll:

Proggo, that whole situation would have sorted itself out sooner than later.
Burning them at the stake in effigy online was not a "contribution" to the band.


Agreed, I'm sure they were ready to oust Steve as soon as the tour ended. Said tour had probably been setup many months before. Augeri's days were numbered already.
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Postby Tito » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:27 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:If not Augeri, then someone else. Neal and Jon were intent on reaping the success of TBF one way or another.


They didn't tour until nearly 2 years after TBF was released. I don't think they were reaping the success of TBF. The album was dead by then.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:45 am

Tito wrote:They didn't tour until nearly 2 years after TBF was released. I don't think they were reaping the success of TBF. The album was dead by then.


That album, or rather the dollar signs reflected in Neal's dilated pupils, inspired the band to finally forge ahead with or without Perry.
That's not a leveled attack, I don't think anyone even disputes that.
Your patron saints of rock are not all good and pure.
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Postby Tito » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:07 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Tito wrote:They didn't tour until nearly 2 years after TBF was released. I don't think they were reaping the success of TBF. The album was dead by then.


That album, or rather the dollar signs reflected in Neal's dilated pupils, inspired the band to finally forge ahead with or without Perry.
That's not a leveled attack, I don't think anyone even disputes that.
Your patron saints of rock are not all good and pure.


They were planning on touring before TBF WITHOUT PERRY and with Chalfant and Rolie. They were reforming no matter what. The hold up after TBF was due to an injury. They finally had enough. They were touring. TBF was so long gone at that point, it didn't even figure in the equation. The patron saints of rock aren't as bad as you think either.
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Postby Matthew » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:11 am

Tito wrote:
The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Tito wrote:They didn't tour until nearly 2 years after TBF was released. I don't think they were reaping the success of TBF. The album was dead by then.


That album, or rather the dollar signs reflected in Neal's dilated pupils, inspired the band to finally forge ahead with or without Perry.
That's not a leveled attack, I don't think anyone even disputes that.
Your patron saints of rock are not all good and pure.


They were planning on touring before TBF WITHOUT PERRY and with Chalfant and Rolie. They were reforming no matter what. The hold up after TBF was due to an injury. They finally had enough. They were touring. TBF was so long gone at that point, it didn't even figure in the equation. The patron saints of rock aren't as bad as you think either.



Selling a million copies of an album at the height of the grunge/alternative years "didn't figure in the equation"? I doubt that, Tito....
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Postby Tito » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:20 am

Matthew wrote:
Tito wrote:
The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Tito wrote:They didn't tour until nearly 2 years after TBF was released. I don't think they were reaping the success of TBF. The album was dead by then.


That album, or rather the dollar signs reflected in Neal's dilated pupils, inspired the band to finally forge ahead with or without Perry.
That's not a leveled attack, I don't think anyone even disputes that.
Your patron saints of rock are not all good and pure.


They were planning on touring before TBF WITHOUT PERRY and with Chalfant and Rolie. They were reforming no matter what. The hold up after TBF was due to an injury. They finally had enough. They were touring. TBF was so long gone at that point, it didn't even figure in the equation. The patron saints of rock aren't as bad as you think either.



Selling a million copies of an album at the height of the grunge/alternative years "didn't figure in the equation"? I doubt that, Tito....


It was nearly TWO YEARS after the CD was released that they toured. That is an eternity in music/entertainment. They were planning on touring before TBF with Chalfant/Rolie, this band was going to be active again. Although it was the grune era still, let's not forget this was also the era of monster reunions too (Eagles, Van Halen (almost), Fleetwood Mac, Journey, Boston, Styx, Kiss, etc.) and an 80's resurgence as well.
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Postby Matthew » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:00 am

Tito wrote:
Matthew wrote:
Tito wrote:
The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Tito wrote:They didn't tour until nearly 2 years after TBF was released. I don't think they were reaping the success of TBF. The album was dead by then.


That album, or rather the dollar signs reflected in Neal's dilated pupils, inspired the band to finally forge ahead with or without Perry.
That's not a leveled attack, I don't think anyone even disputes that.
Your patron saints of rock are not all good and pure.


They were planning on touring before TBF WITHOUT PERRY and with Chalfant and Rolie. They were reforming no matter what. The hold up after TBF was due to an injury. They finally had enough. They were touring. TBF was so long gone at that point, it didn't even figure in the equation. The patron saints of rock aren't as bad as you think either.



Selling a million copies of an album at the height of the grunge/alternative years "didn't figure in the equation"? I doubt that, Tito....


It was nearly TWO YEARS after the CD was released that they toured. That is an eternity in music/entertainment. They were planning on touring before TBF with Chalfant/Rolie, this band was going to be active again. Although it was the grune era still, let's not forget this was also the era of monster reunions too (Eagles, Van Halen (almost), Fleetwood Mac, Journey, Boston, Styx, Kiss, etc.) and an 80's resurgence as well.



Two years is an eternity in music and entertainment? That was maybe true in the 60s,70s and first half of the 1980s...but by 1998 I wouldn't say it was considered that much of a gap - especially to a veteran act like Journey.

As for the planned reunion of the early 1990s...that was always a pretty fragile arrangement and in any case all the big reunions you mention saw the most loved and commercial line-ups coming together. Journey's didn't at that point and it's no secret that the record company was less than thrilled by the Chalfant idea...which is partly why that plan crumbled so easily.

After a ten year gap Journey proved it still had an audience out there in 1996. This was shown to be a reality in comparison to the pipe dreams of the brief period when Chalfant was being considered. To say that a mere two years on the success had no inspiring influence, that it didn't give them any courage at all, that it made no difference...well, that's just ridiculous Tito. It really is.
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Postby mistiejourney » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:31 am

Saint John wrote:
Behshad wrote:Big Boy Deano didnt like the fact that I have Andrew in there while his ass is booted from the place,,,, here is his messages to me:

Dean Ohlrich: Dude, I am bigger than any sit you have
Dean Ohlrich: I am can conquer any site
Dean Ohlrich: and I agree
Dean Ohlrich: you are oiece of shit
Dean Ohlrich: I am done with them too
Dean Ohlrich: you san d nigger
Dean Ohlrich: go die
Dean Ohlrich: you will nver be me
B: THANK FUCKING GOD
Dean Ohlrich: If I am Bruce, you are Euope
B: never will I be the loser like you are
B: WITH PRIDE
Dean Ohlrich: ye
Dean Ohlrich: bye
Dean Ohlrich: a better life
Dean Ohlrich: you enjoy your JSS love
B: youre much much better than me,, Im just a loser
Dean Ohlrich: yep
B: you will conquer all forums
B: I will lose and die
Dean Ohlrich: I sure am'
B: anything else Sir>?
Dean Ohlrich: leave me alo\ne
B: thanks for your time
B: you will be left alone,, all alone,,, you did this to yourself,,,
Dean Ohlrich: pathtic
Dean Ohlrich: I am a force
Dean Ohlrich: you are a pimple
Dean Ohlrich: people want to read me, not you
B: I am a pimple on your ass that you will always complain about
Dean Ohlrich: and you know it
Dean Ohlrich: be my my guitar plyer
Dean Ohlrich: be my associate\
Dean Ohlrich: let me lead thid
Dean Ohlrich: ths
Dean Ohlrich: thid
Dean Ohlrich: this
Dean Ohlrich: thid
Dean Ohlrich: this
Dean Ohlrich: fine
Dean Ohlrich: whateer


Thanks, Kim!!! :lol:


Whoa, I haven't been here for three days - whatever has gone down, I'm not the "Kim" referred to! :shock:
Image

Kim in CA : )
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Postby mistiejourney » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:34 am

Natalie wrote:
Behshad wrote:*Group Hug *

If you insist.
Image


Oh, that is just so wron.......not too bad! :D
Image

Kim in CA : )
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Postby Tito » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:35 am

Matthew wrote:Two years is an eternity in music and entertainment? That was maybe true in the 60s,70s and first half of the 1980s...but by 1998 I wouldn't say it was considered that much of a gap - especially to a veteran act like Journey.

As for the planned reunion of the early 1990s...that was always a pretty fragile arrangement and in any case all the big reunions you mention saw the most loved and commercial line-ups coming together. Journey's didn't at that point and it's no secret that the record company was less than thrilled by the Chalfant idea...which is partly why that plan crumbled so easily.

After a ten year gap Journey proved it still had an audience out there in 1996. This was shown to be a reality in comparison to the pipe dreams of the brief period when Chalfant was being considered. To say that a mere two years on the success had no inspiring influence, that it didn't give them any courage at all, that it made no difference...well, that's just ridiculous Tito. It really is.


The Chalfant lineup broke up because Jon "Fingers" Cain got a phone call from Steve Perry. Bottom line, they were going to tour regardless of lineup or record company backing in the mid to late 90's. TBF had minimal to no impact on that decision.
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Postby Matthew » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:42 am

Tito wrote:
Matthew wrote:Two years is an eternity in music and entertainment? That was maybe true in the 60s,70s and first half of the 1980s...but by 1998 I wouldn't say it was considered that much of a gap - especially to a veteran act like Journey.

As for the planned reunion of the early 1990s...that was always a pretty fragile arrangement and in any case all the big reunions you mention saw the most loved and commercial line-ups coming together. Journey's didn't at that point and it's no secret that the record company was less than thrilled by the Chalfant idea...which is partly why that plan crumbled so easily.

After a ten year gap Journey proved it still had an audience out there in 1996. This was shown to be a reality in comparison to the pipe dreams of the brief period when Chalfant was being considered. To say that a mere two years on the success had no inspiring influence, that it didn't give them any courage at all, that it made no difference...well, that's just ridiculous Tito. It really is.


The Chalfant lineup broke up because Jon "Fingers" Cain got a phone call from Steve Perry. Bottom line, they were going to tour regardless of lineup or record company backing in the mid to late 90's. TBF had minimal to no impact on that decision.


If the success of TBF had minimal to no impact...and they were determined to tour no matter who was singing....why didn't they just hire Chalfant immediately after the album came out? From the moment Perry started dithering about promo videos and radio interviews they could have forged ahead with the original plan...
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Postby Tito » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:47 am

Matthew wrote:
Tito wrote:
Matthew wrote:Two years is an eternity in music and entertainment? That was maybe true in the 60s,70s and first half of the 1980s...but by 1998 I wouldn't say it was considered that much of a gap - especially to a veteran act like Journey.

As for the planned reunion of the early 1990s...that was always a pretty fragile arrangement and in any case all the big reunions you mention saw the most loved and commercial line-ups coming together. Journey's didn't at that point and it's no secret that the record company was less than thrilled by the Chalfant idea...which is partly why that plan crumbled so easily.

After a ten year gap Journey proved it still had an audience out there in 1996. This was shown to be a reality in comparison to the pipe dreams of the brief period when Chalfant was being considered. To say that a mere two years on the success had no inspiring influence, that it didn't give them any courage at all, that it made no difference...well, that's just ridiculous Tito. It really is.


The Chalfant lineup broke up because Jon "Fingers" Cain got a phone call from Steve Perry. Bottom line, they were going to tour regardless of lineup or record company backing in the mid to late 90's. TBF had minimal to no impact on that decision.


If the success of TBF had minimal to no impact...and they were determined to tour no matter who was singing....why didn't they just hire Chalfant immediately after the album came out? From the moment Perry started dithering about promo videos and radio interviews they could have forged ahead with the original plan...


Because they are loyal people and were patient for Perry. When it became 100% clear, Perry wasn't touring they moved ahead.
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Postby Onestepper » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:52 am

Matthew wrote:
Tito wrote:
Matthew wrote:Two years is an eternity in music and entertainment? That was maybe true in the 60s,70s and first half of the 1980s...but by 1998 I wouldn't say it was considered that much of a gap - especially to a veteran act like Journey.

As for the planned reunion of the early 1990s...that was always a pretty fragile arrangement and in any case all the big reunions you mention saw the most loved and commercial line-ups coming together. Journey's didn't at that point and it's no secret that the record company was less than thrilled by the Chalfant idea...which is partly why that plan crumbled so easily.

After a ten year gap Journey proved it still had an audience out there in 1996. This was shown to be a reality in comparison to the pipe dreams of the brief period when Chalfant was being considered. To say that a mere two years on the success had no inspiring influence, that it didn't give them any courage at all, that it made no difference...well, that's just ridiculous Tito. It really is.


The Chalfant lineup broke up because Jon "Fingers" Cain got a phone call from Steve Perry. Bottom line, they were going to tour regardless of lineup or record company backing in the mid to late 90's. TBF had minimal to no impact on that decision.


If the success of TBF had minimal to no impact...and they were determined to tour no matter who was singing....why didn't they just hire Chalfant immediately after the album came out? From the moment Perry started dithering about promo videos and radio interviews they could have forged ahead with the original plan...


They had also just done a whole slue of interviews and press saying they had reunited in which Perry participated talking about how he was looking forward to touring, so I can't see them just walking away from him when they waited years to get him back to begin with. As it's been noted before, they are smart enough to know they made more money with him, then without.
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Postby Matthew » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:57 am

Tito wrote:
Because they are loyal people



A trollish remark surely....

and were patient for Perry.



Up to a point...but the desire to catch the last of the TBF afterglow over-rode all these fine human qualities you speak of...


When it became 100% clear, Perry wasn't touring they moved ahead.



It wasn't 100% clear. At no point did Perry definitively rule out a return to touring.
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Postby conversationpc » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:59 am

Matthew wrote:It wasn't 100% clear. At no point did Perry definitively rule out a return to touring.


Oh, come on! Perry had an established history of sabotaging tours. The members of Journey most likely saw the writing on the proverbial wall at that point.
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Postby Tito » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:00 am

Matthew wrote:
Tito wrote:
Because they are loyal people



A trollish remark surely....

and were patient for Perry.



Up to a point...but the desire to catch the last of the TBF afterglow over-rode all these fine human qualities you speak of...


When it became 100% clear, Perry wasn't touring they moved ahead.



It wasn't 100% clear. At no point did Perry definitively rule out a return to touring.


???? WTF has he done the last 12 years? Name one tour/show, one NEW CD released? He hasn't toured in 14 years! Or recorded anything new in 12 years! The writing was and is on the wall.
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Postby Matthew » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:09 am

conversationpc wrote:
Matthew wrote:It wasn't 100% clear. At no point did Perry definitively rule out a return to touring.


Oh, come on! Perry had an established history of sabotaging tours. The members of Journey most likely saw the writing on the proverbial wall at that point.



An established history of "sabotaging" tours? Well..he delivered brilliant and consistent performances on five out of the six Journey tours before the reunion. And he completed most of the ROR tour in any case. They'd been on the road from August 1986 until February 1987.

Plus he didn't "sabotage" the final stage of the tour. He burnt out. Big, big difference.

As for writing on the wall in 1998...sure, but a hunch is hardly 100% proof Tito spoke of is it?
Last edited by Matthew on Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Matthew » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:11 am

Tito wrote:???? WTF has he done the last 12 years? Name one tour/show, one NEW CD released? He hasn't toured in 14 years! Or recorded anything new in 12 years! The writing was and is on the wall.



Don't take something you discovered in HINDSIGHT and place it in the context of the late 1990s.... :roll:
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Postby Tito » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:12 am

Matthew wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
Matthew wrote:It wasn't 100% clear. At no point did Perry definitively rule out a return to touring.


Oh, come on! Perry had an established history of sabotaging tours. The members of Journey most likely saw the writing on the proverbial wall at that point.



An established history of "sabotaging" tours? Well..he delivered brilliant and consistent performances on five out of the six Journey tours before the reunion. And he completed most of the ROR tour in any case. They'd been on the road from August 1986 until February 1987.

Plus he didn't "sabotage" final stage of the tour. He burnt out. Big, big difference.

As for writing on the wall in 1998...sure, but a hunch is hardly 100% proof Tito spoke of is it?


With past history and the fact he wasn't healthy yet to tour at that stage and wasn't getting any better = 100% he wasn't touring.
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Postby Tito » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:13 am

Matthew wrote:
Tito wrote:???? WTF has he done the last 12 years? Name one tour/show, one NEW CD released? He hasn't toured in 14 years! Or recorded anything new in 12 years! The writing was and is on the wall.



Don't take something you discovered in HINDSIGHT and place it in the context of the late 1990s.... :roll:


Time has proven it to be true. It is a fact.
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