OT: age issue in the olympics, does it matter?

[journeypower]

this issue has been raised several times now, particularly with regards to the minimum age requirement of 16 years old in gymnastics. the reason why people say that the minimum age required in such sport is to reduce the risk of injury, growth issues and shortening the career of athletes, which I think is bullcrap. any physical and strainous is a risk regardless of age. lifetime injury and recovery is not dependent on age but rather the severity of the injury.


the question is, why is it that age is an issue in an olympics, which is only held every 4 years? and why must one be 16 in the olympic year inorder to qualify to enter a competition while they are allowed to train and make preparations during their underage years where the so-called injuries can occur just the same? the olympics is only a one time event every 4 years while training is an everyday routine. I would laugh if Shawn Johnson only started to train this year and got a gold for her performance. I highly believe that she started younger than that, which makes her underaged, right?

isn't that quite unfair and doesn't seem to give justice to these athletes? or maybe because of the so-called gold achievements that makes this an issue? well, if you want gold, you must perform better than your opponent, regardless of age. I believe this is not about fairness, but gold haul.

there are other important issues that need to be talked about in the olympics, such as the questionable scoring system in boxing where the OIC has not taken action or notice, or why there is no height requirement in swimming.

the thing is, why do some people cry foul when they lose due to their much younger opponents while there's nobody being sour at Michael Phelps for having a considerable height and longer reach advantage over his opponents?

[Luvsaugeri]

this issue has been raised several times now, particularly with regards to the minimum age requirement of 16 years old in gymnastics. the reason why people say that the minimum age required in such sport is to reduce the risk of injury, growth issues and shortening the career of athletes, which I think is bullcrap. any physical and strainous is a risk regardless of age. lifetime injury and recovery is not dependent on age but rather the severity of the injury.


the question is, why is it that age is an issue in an olympics, which is only held every 4 years? and why must one be 16 in the olympic year inorder to qualify to enter a competition while they are allowed to train and make preparations during their underage years where the so-called injuries can occur just the same? the olympics is only a one time event every 4 years while training is an everyday routine. I would laugh if Shawn Johnson only started to train this year and got a gold for her performance. I highly believe that she started younger than that, which makes her underaged, right?

isn't that quite unfair and doesn't seem to give justice to these athletes? or maybe because of the so-called gold achievements that makes this an issue? well, if you want gold, you must perform better than your opponent, regardless of age. I believe this is not about fairness, but gold haul.

there are other important issues that need to be talked about in the olympics, such as the questionable scoring system in boxing where the OIC has not taken action or notice, or why there is no height requirement in swimming.

the thing is, why do some people cry foul when they lose due to their much younger opponents while there's nobody being sour at Michael Phelps for having a considerable height and longer reach advantage over his opponents?

The point is that the rules are the rules. It doesn't matter WHY the age is 16. But it does matter that if that is the rule, it should be followed by ALL countries. I believe I heard that the younger competitors have an advantage due to increased flexibility.

I think there is a difference in differentiating between someone's age as opposed to someone's body size.

I do agree with you about the boxing though. I didn't watch it but from what I heard it was ridiculous.

And it's not just "if you want gold you perform better than your opponent". It's the same as when they do drug testing and disqualify anyone who does not pass. It's "if you want gold you perform better than your opponent AND follow the rules."

[conversationpc]

As long as the rules are the way they are then, yes, it does matter. It can be argued that the rules should be changed but until then, the rules should be followed.

[etcetera]

It's about fairness, a level playing field...participants going by the same set of rules.

[Barb]

It matters because that is the established rule. What if the US or other competing countries had younger gymnasts who were gold medal potential but held them back because they actually followed the rules the IOC put in place? If the Chinese government falsified these girls' passports to get them to be eligible, they should be stripped of their medals.

[Angiekay]

BEIJING (AP) -- With the parents growing indignant and the Beijing Games winding down, the International Olympic Committee wants to "put to rest" persistent questions about the age of China's gold medal women's gymnastics team.

The IOC said Friday there is still no proof anyone cheated, though it asked the International Gymnastics Federation to investigate "what have been a number of questions and apparent discrepancies," spokeswoman Giselle Davies said. However, all the information the Chinese gymnastics federation presented supports its insistence that its athletes were old enough to compete.

"We believe the matter will be put to rest and there's no question ... on the eligibility," Davies said. "The information we have received seems satisfactory in terms of the correct documentation -- including birth certificates."

If the federation had found evidence that the gymnasts were underage, it could have affected four of China's medals. In addition to the team gold and He Kexin's gold on uneven bars, Yang Yilin won bronze medals in the all-around and bars.

With the games wrapping up Sunday, the IOC wants to quickly end any lingering doubts about underage competitors.

No one would be happier to finally have closure on the controversy than the gymnasts' parents.

China coach Lu Shanzan said the parents are "indignant" over persistent questions about their daughters' ages.

"It's not just me. The parents of our athletes are all very indignant," Lu said. "They have faced groundless suspicion. Why aren't they believed? Why are their children suspected? Their parents are very angry."

In an interview with The Associated Press, Lu said Asian gymnasts are naturally smaller than their American and European rivals.

"At this competition, the Japanese gymnasts were just as small as the Chinese," he said. "Chinese competitors have for years all been small. It is not just this time. It is a question of race. European and American athletes are all powerful, very robust. But Chinese athletes cannot be like that. They are by nature that small."

He said the governing body of gymnastics was given additional documents Thursday night to try to dispel lingering questions. Those documents included He's current and former passport, ID card and family residence permit. Lu said the documents all say she was born in 1992, which would have made her eligible to compete. Gymnasts must turn 16 during the Olympic year to be eligible.

"Surely it's not possible that these documents are still not sufficient proof of her birthdate?" Lu asked. "The passports were issued by the Chinese Foreign Ministry. The identity card was issued by China's Ministry of Public Security. If these valid documents are not enough to clarify this problem, then what will you believe?

"The Chinese government and the Chinese athletes must be respected," he added.

The coach dismissed Chinese media reports and online records that suggested that He, Yang and a third team member, Jiang Yuyuan, might be as young as 14.

"If you trust every Web site but not a government...," he said. "There are so many Web sites, so much hearsay. These are not official. It is possible that all news on the Internet is accurate?"

The federation has said repeatedly that a passport is the "accepted proof of a gymnast's eligibility," and that China's gymnasts have presented ones that show they are age eligible. The IOC also checked the girls' passports and deemed them valid before the games began.

Andre Gueisbuhler, secretary general of the FIG, said the federation would release a statement later Friday.

"For the time being, there is nothing I can add," Gueisbuhler said.

The IOC did not give details on what new information prompted it to act now, three days after the gymnastics competition ended.

"With some questions still remaining, we asked the federation to take a closer look," Davies said.

The U.S. Olympic Committee said it sent a letter to the IOC and the FIG on Friday, asking that the matter be resolved.

"We certainly believe that it's important for the IOC and the international federation to review the issue and hopefully lay it to rest because the questions surrounding the age of some of the athletes have been out there for quite a while and it's unfair to them and unfair to the other athletes to continue to linger," USOC chief executive Jim Scherr said.

"So we have sent a letter to the IOC and to the international federation asking them to review the matter and see if they can't resolve it for the good of the competition, the integrity of the competition and the good of all the athletes."

The Chinese women won six medals, including the team gold and He's gold on uneven bars. Media reports include a Nov. 3 story by the Chinese government's news agency, Xinhua, that suggest He is only 14. Asked again earlier this week about her age after winning the uneven bars title, beating American Nastia Liukin in a tiebreak, she said:

"I was born in 1992, and I'm 16 years old now," He said. "The FIG has proved that. If I'm under 16, I couldn't have been competing here."

Earlier this month, the AP found registration lists previously posted on the Web site of the General Administration of Sport of China that showed both He and Yang were too young to compete. He was born Jan. 1, 1994, according to the 2005, 2006 and 2007 registration lists. Yang was born Aug. 26, 1993, according to the 2004, 2005 and 2006 registration lists. In the 2007 registration list, however, her birthday has changed to Aug. 26, 1992.

"We played fair at this Olympic Games," Liukin's father and coach, Valeri, said after they arrived back in the United States. "... If somebody cheated, shame on them."

Added Steve Penny, president of USA Gymnastics: "USA Gymnastics has always believed this issue needed to be addressed by the FIG and IOC. An investigation would help bring closure to the issue and remove any cloud of speculation from this competition."

Age falsification has been a problem in gymnastics since the 1980s after the minimum age was raised from 14 to 15 to protect young athletes from serious injuries. The minimum age was raised to its current 16 in 1997. Younger gymnasts are considered to have an advantage because they are more flexible and are likely to have an easier time doing the tough skills the sport requires. They also aren't as likely to have a history of injuries or fear of failure.

North Korea was barred from the 1993 world championships after FIG officials discovered Kim Gwang Suk, the gold medalist on uneven bars in 1991, was listed as 15 for three years in a row. Romania admitted in 2002 that several gymnasts' ages had been falsified, including Olympic medalists Gina Gogean and Alexandra Marinescu.

Even China's own Yang Yun, a double bronze medalist in Sydney, said during an interview aired on state broadcaster China Central Television that she was 14 during the 2000 Games.

[The Sushi Hunter]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... .DTL&tsp=1

[Barb]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/22/SP8412GB61.DTL&tsp=1

There is enough evidence for the IOC to investigate.

[The Sushi Hunter]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/22/SP8412GB61.DTL&tsp=1

There is enough evidence for the IOC to investigate.

So what's the evidence besides them looking young for their age and winning gold medals?

[DrFU]

Minimum age rules are also about preventing the exploitation of children. We had some pretty awful things going on in US factories before we passed such laws (like kids working in shafts of coal mines that were too small for adults to fit into). If there are no minimums (and it looks like even with them) younger and younger children will get pushed into arenas intended for adults.

[journeypower]

It matters because that is the established rule. What if the US or other competing countries had younger gymnasts who were gold medal potential but held them back because they actually followed the rules the IOC put in place? If the Chinese government falsified these girls' passports to get them to be eligible, they should be stripped of their medals.

I do agree that it is in the rules. what I am saying that I question some rules, particularly it's pirpose regarding this issue. now, if the so-called purpose of the rules is to safeguard the athletes or avoid injuries, well it is an ineffective one. whether you like it or not, kids will continue to train at an earlier age, that includes the americans themselves.

by virtue of fairness, how could one cheat if a younger person is much better than an older one? it is not like that he/she used any drugs just to increase his/her performance. how could you blame the flexibility of a younger athlete? performance drugs is definitely a different issue. the difference is that drugs alters the natural performance of an athlete while a young athlete's performance is simply doing what is natural. oh, and I dont mind if the U.S. and any other country would use younger athletes. I'm thereby saying that such a rule should be changed as it doesn't serve it's purpose.

I'm not questioning the legality of the rules but rather question it's effectivity and real purpose. I'm setting aside the so-called for fairness sake issue since it doesn't involve any drugs or manipulation in the scoring system, where the OIC should really focus on.

[bluejeangirl76]

As long as the rules are the way they are then, yes, it does matter. It can be argued that the rules should be changed but until then, the rules should be followed.

Exactly. And even if the rules were changed, the arguments wouldn't. Move the qualifying age to 14, then the argument becomes "If 14 can compete, why can't 12?" and so on down the line. Order and structure. You have to be 16, end of story.

[journeypower]

Minimum age rules are also about preventing the exploitation of children. We had some pretty awful things going on in US factories before we passed such laws (like kids working in shafts of coal mines that were too small for adults to fit into). If there are no minimums (and it looks like even with them) younger and younger children will get pushed into arenas intended for adults.

I hear you on this one, but this is a different story. I believe it is common for young children to start to train at an earlier age without coercion, most especially if those children loves to get involved in sports. the exploitation issue is not even a real concern unless the children's welfare is really affected. again, the question of how do people know that children are really exploited?

I remembered some olympics before where some young athletes got disqualified during the competition itself due to age issues and where the athletes would cry because of it. mind you that those athletes were really good and the ones that blew the whistles were ehem.....their opponents. where such incidents led me to believe that it's all about medals and gold.


*I dont encourage performance drugs because they are not natural and highly illegal. but I encourage a person to exceed their limitations.

[stevew2]

As long as they can fit into those little bikini s they are wearing this year,it doesnt matter to me

[DrFU]

Minimum age rules are also about preventing the exploitation of children. We had some pretty awful things going on in US factories before we passed such laws (like kids working in shafts of coal mines that were too small for adults to fit into). If there are no minimums (and it looks like even with them) younger and younger children will get pushed into arenas intended for adults.

I hear you on this one, but this is a different story. I believe it is common for young children to start to train at an earlier age without coercion, most especially if those children loves to get involved in sports. the exploitation issue is not even a real concern unless the children's welfare is really affected. again, the question of how do people know that children are really exploited?

I remembered some olympics before where some young athletes got disqualified during the competition itself due to age issues and where the athletes would cry because of it. mind you that those athletes were really good and the ones that blew the whistles were ehem.....their opponents. where such incidents led me to believe that it's all about medals and gold.


*I dont encourage performance drugs because they are not natural and highly illegal. but I encourage a person to exceed their limitations.

Here's the deal: It's an imperfect system, but the assumption is that kids can't freely consent to participate in work (or elite athletics training) because they are dependent on their parents for survival. So if their parents want them to do something, the child can't really say "no" independent of coersion. Then add the emotional load of wanting to please one's parents, and the stages of cognition kids move through at different ages, and it gets really complicated. So society steps in to establish laws to protect individuals and groups that might not be able to independently protect themselves. Does this potentially negatively impact kids and families who genuinely want to compete younger and who might be capable of doing so and who might be doing all the right things? Sure. But the laws are designed to protect the most vulnerable members of the group.

[Barb]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/22/SP8412GB61.DTL&tsp=1

There is enough evidence for the IOC to investigate.

So what's the evidence besides them looking young for their age and winning gold medals?

Age charts from previous events listing their ages as 13 and 14, media reports covering events mentioning their ages - all of which have now vanished from the internet.

[X factor]

Minimum age rules are also about preventing the exploitation of children. We had some pretty awful things going on in US factories before we passed such laws (like kids working in shafts of coal mines that were too small for adults to fit into). If there are no minimums (and it looks like even with them) younger and younger children will get pushed into arenas intended for adults.

Right on! And, as it's been stated a number of times...it's THE RULE!!!! And the Chinese are about to get their asses handed to them on this issue, and I couldn't be happier!

[Barb]

Minimum age rules are also about preventing the exploitation of children. We had some pretty awful things going on in US factories before we passed such laws (like kids working in shafts of coal mines that were too small for adults to fit into). If there are no minimums (and it looks like even with them) younger and younger children will get pushed into arenas intended for adults.

Right on! And, as it's been stated a number of times...it's THE RULE!!!! And the Chinese are about to get their asses handed to them on this issue, and I couldn't be happier!

I don't really think the Chinese are overly concerened about exploiting children. Their concern is to win at any cost by any means. I feel sorry for the actual gymnasts, but if you're not old enough, you shouldn't be there and shouldn't be taking medals away from those who are of legal age who deserved them. I feel so incredibly proud of Nastia Liukin for the way she handled herself and graciously accepted the silver medal even though she had earned the gold.

[The Sushi Hunter]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/22/SP8412GB61.DTL&tsp=1

There is enough evidence for the IOC to investigate.

So what's the evidence besides them looking young for their age and winning gold medals?

Age charts from previous events listing their ages as 13 and 14, media reports covering events mentioning their ages - all of which have now vanished from the internet.

Now that's interesting. Nowhere have I read the mention of age charts from previous events listing their ages as 13 and 14, nor have I read media reports covering events mentioning their ages - all of which have now vanished from the interent. Seems the only place I've read any of those things is from you.

[Barb]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/22/SP8412GB61.DTL&tsp=1

There is enough evidence for the IOC to investigate.

So what's the evidence besides them looking young for their age and winning gold medals?

Age charts from previous events listing their ages as 13 and 14, media reports covering events mentioning their ages - all of which have now vanished from the internet.

Now that's interesting. Nowhere have I read the mention of age charts from previous events listing their ages as 13 and 14, nor have I read media reports covering events mentioning their ages - all of which have now vanished from the interent. Seems the only place I've read any of those things is from you.

Here you go.... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 578241.ece

[X factor]

Minimum age rules are also about preventing the exploitation of children. We had some pretty awful things going on in US factories before we passed such laws (like kids working in shafts of coal mines that were too small for adults to fit into). If there are no minimums (and it looks like even with them) younger and younger children will get pushed into arenas intended for adults.

Right on! And, as it's been stated a number of times...it's THE RULE!!!! And the Chinese are about to get their asses handed to them on this issue, and I couldn't be happier!

I don't really think the Chinese are overly concerened about exploiting children. Their concern is to win at any cost by any means. I feel sorry for the actual gymnasts, but if you're not old enough, you shouldn't be there and shouldn't be taking medals away from those who are of legal age who deserved them. I feel so incredibly proud of Nastia Liukin for the way she handled herself and graciously accepted the silver medal even though she had earned the gold.

No, I know they don't care about it...I just meant I'm gonna love it when the IOC strips them of their medals! Which means we got the all around Gold, and Nastia gets one more gold as well.

[Barb]

Do any of these kids look to be even 10 years old?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klj12Z_ARow

[The Sushi Hunter]

Do any of these kids look to be even 10 years old?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klj12Z_ARow

How about that all Chinese Female Sushi team, er I mean Soccer Team Barb? How old are they if you know.

[Barb]

Do any of these kids look to be even 10 years old?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klj12Z_ARow

How about that all Chinese Female Sushi team, er I mean Soccer Team Barb? How old are they if you know.

I don't care for soccer, don't watch and have no idea. What is your point?

[The Sushi Hunter]

Do any of these kids look to be even 10 years old?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klj12Z_ARow

How about that all Chinese Female Sushi team, er I mean Soccer Team Barb? How old are they if you know.

I don't care for soccer, don't watch and have no idea. What is your point?

My point is.... if they were winning some gold, you would.

[Barb]

Do any of these kids look to be even 10 years old?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klj12Z_ARow

How about that all Chinese Female Sushi team, er I mean Soccer Team Barb? How old are they if you know.

I don't care for soccer, don't watch and have no idea. What is your point?

My point is.... if they were winning some gold, you would.

You are ridiculous. For one thing, soccer is a game where you have actual scores, not subjective judging that no one even understands anymore. You get the ball in the net, you score. In gymnastics, I see Chinese gymnasts falling 2, even 3 times and getting higher scores than the American who made minor errors in a program with the same level of difficulty. It's the same with figure skating. Do you remember the 2002 Olympics where the Canadian pairs team came in 2nd because a French judge was cheating? Luckily the judge was found out and they were awarded their gold medal.

I don't have any issue with the better athelete winning as long as they are eligble to compete and are not cheating. The chinese divers, for example are amazing to watch and are far superior to the Americans in that event. There is definitely something not right about the gymastics, though. The judging was weird and it seemed to take forever for the American girls scores to go up. And... there were several times where the Chinese girls made mistakes and no deductions were taken. Even the NBC commentators mentioned that.

If these girls are not of legal competing age, there is legitimate cause for people to be upset and demand justice for the other athletes who are of age and have worked their whole lives for that moment. Nastia is 18 and probably won't have a shot again at a gold in 2012 against 16 year old girls. I don't know why you cannot be objective on this instead of shooting your "flag waving" dogma at me as though I'm some sort of hypocrite. I believe in fairness and think there is good cause to believe some of those girls are under age.

[T-Bone]

In my opinion, if they lied, then they should be disqualified... PERIOD! It goes against what the olympics are all about. It challanges the morals, integrity, and ethics all in one shot. it's CHEATING no matter which way you try to brush it off....

[The Sushi Hunter]

Do any of these kids look to be even 10 years old?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klj12Z_ARow

How about that all Chinese Female Sushi team, er I mean Soccer Team Barb? How old are they if you know.

I don't care for soccer, don't watch and have no idea. What is your point?

My point is.... if they were winning some gold, you would.

You are ridiculous. For one thing, soccer is a game where you have actual scores, not subjective judging that no one even understands anymore. You get the ball in the net, you score. In gymnastics, I see Chinese gymnasts falling 2, even 3 times and getting higher scores than the American who made minor errors in a program with the same level of difficulty. It's the same with figure skating. Do you remember the 2002 Olympics where the Canadian pairs team came in 2nd because a French judge was cheating? Luckily the judge was found out and they were awarded their gold medal.

I don't have any issue with the better athelete winning as long as they are eligble to compete and are not cheating. The chinese divers, for example are amazing to watch and are far superior to the Americans in that event. There is definitely something not right about the gymastics, though. The judging was weird and it seemed to take forever for the American girls scores to go up. And... there were several times where the Chinese girls made mistakes and no deductions were taken. Even the NBC commentators mentioned that.

If these girls are not of legal competing age, there is legitimate cause for people to be upset and demand justice for the other athletes who are of age and have worked their whole lives for that moment. Nastia is 18 and probably won't have a shot again at a gold in 2012 against 16 year old girls. I don't know why you cannot be objective on this instead of shooting your "flag waving" dogma at me as though I'm some sort of hypocrite. I believe in fairness and think there is good cause to believe some of those girls are under age.

Just relax.....like my wife says to me.

Plus...it's just a game. Not the end of the world. No one's losing their birthday over it. Reminds me of a group of old men at the old folks home gumming on marshmellows and screaming at the All-Star Wrestling Tournament on the TV.

[Don]

I think the only sport where age is an issue is gymnastics. Lighter and smaller is better, if a woman and a child are the same ht. and wt., the child is still going to be more flexible just due to nature. If there is no age limit, then all the the teams would use 10 to 15 year olds during these gymnastic events. Their Olympic careers would be over when they hit 16. I don't think many would have matured emotionally enough yet to handle the finality of that. They have Junior Olmpics for younger people, lets continue to keep it that way. Nadia Comaneci may have won gold but was she really enjoying it? When she would pick up her teddy bear after her turn on the mat, she looked like a child who had just finished chores that her parents had demanded of her, more than a young person enjoying the moment. I think the age requirement is a good thing and should stay in place.

[journeypower]

Minimum age rules are also about preventing the exploitation of children. We had some pretty awful things going on in US factories before we passed such laws (like kids working in shafts of coal mines that were too small for adults to fit into). If there are no minimums (and it looks like even with them) younger and younger children will get pushed into arenas intended for adults.

I hear you on this one, but this is a different story. I believe it is common for young children to start to train at an earlier age without coercion, most especially if those children loves to get involved in sports. the exploitation issue is not even a real concern unless the children's welfare is really affected. again, the question of how do people know that children are really exploited?

I remembered some olympics before where some young athletes got disqualified during the competition itself due to age issues and where the athletes would cry because of it. mind you that those athletes were really good and the ones that blew the whistles were ehem.....their opponents. where such incidents led me to believe that it's all about medals and gold.


*I dont encourage performance drugs because they are not natural and highly illegal. but I encourage a person to exceed their limitations.

Here's the deal: It's an imperfect system, but the assumption is that kids can't freely consent to participate in work (or elite athletics training) because they are dependent on their parents for survival. So if their parents want them to do something, the child can't really say "no" independent of coersion. Then add the emotional load of wanting to please one's parents, and the stages of cognition kids move through at different ages, and it gets really complicated. So society steps in to establish laws to protect individuals and groups that might not be able to independently protect themselves. Does this potentially negatively impact kids and families who genuinely want to compete younger and who might be capable of doing so and who might be doing all the right things? Sure. But the laws are designed to protect the most vulnerable members of the group.

I understand the concerns here to the younglings. but this also reminds me of saying "you are too young for this particular sport", which can be considered a way of disencouraging and disheartening the child. sure there are several factors that motivate these kids from doing the sport, but the reasons are several. it can be due to what the parents want or it can be what the kid wants. these things are not only limited on one nation. these kids enjoy playing with barbie dolls and stuff, but that doesn't handicap them or divert their love for the sport.

I know this, because some decades ago when we were young, some of us dreamt and enjoyed playing some sports ourselves, not just playing transformers, atari and watching my lil pony and the carebears do their countdown. not all can excel and not all have such motivation and love for a sport. so it's better to let them enjoy it. that's fair enough in my opinion. drugs ain't.