OT: $700 million dollar bailout defeated in the House.

[Voyager]

Here's the result of the House not passing this bill:

The day's loss knocked out approximately $1.2 trillion in market value, the first post-$1 trillion day ever, according to a drop in the Dow Jones Wilshire 5000, the broadest measure of the stock market.

That's over $1-trillion of people's retirement investments down the drain - and that's just today.

The money will come from somewhere. We can either pay $700-billion now, or watch much more than that in 401k retirement savings evaporate into thin air.

[RossValoryRocks]

Here's the result of the House not passing this bill:

The day's loss knocked out approximately $1.2 trillion in market value, the first post-$1 trillion day ever, according to a drop in the Dow Jones Wilshire 5000, the broadest measure of the stock market.

That's over $1-trillion of people's retirement investments down the drain - and that's just today.

The money will come from somewhere. We can either pay $700-billion now, or watch much more than that in 401k retirement savings evaporate into thin air.

You REALLY don't understand economics. There was lost value TODAY, but it comes back and grows even more because they are tangible assets.

[Andrew]

It was Bush pushing for the fucking bailout and all you people do is blame democrats. How selective of you and how fucking predictable. You fucks who supported Bush through this whole thing should be the ones with extra money to pay back.

Easy does it there...

[conversationpc]

It was Bush pushing for the fucking bailout and all you people do is blame democrats. How selective of you and how fucking predictable. You fucks who supported Bush through this whole thing should be the ones with extra money to pay back.

I missed this one early on...You haven't been paying attention. I've been talking about THIS bill voted on today and the stuff the Dems sneaked in. NO bailout bill is going to a good thing regardless of if it delays financial armageddon or not. THAT is Bush's fault as well as Congressional Republicans AND Democrats. If you don't believe it's the latter, just look at Pelosi's completely hack partisan speech from earlier today.

[Voyager]

Here's the result of the House not passing this bill:

The day's loss knocked out approximately $1.2 trillion in market value, the first post-$1 trillion day ever, according to a drop in the Dow Jones Wilshire 5000, the broadest measure of the stock market.

That's over $1-trillion of people's retirement investments down the drain - and that's just today.

The money will come from somewhere. We can either pay $700-billion now, or watch much more than that in 401k retirement savings evaporate into thin air.

You REALLY don't understand economics. There was lost value TODAY, but it comes back and grows even more because they are tangible assets.

Sure I understand it. I just don't agree with everything you say.

Those stock values are gone, and there is no guarantee they will recover. It could very well get worse, and if the bailout doesn't fly - it surely will.

[jrnychick]

It sounds to me that all credit will be shut off. Punishing Wallstreet in a heavy handed matter will be like cutting off our nose to spite our face. It's going to be ugly.

Exactly. If they don't pass this, the terrorists will be laughing at us. We will be doing what they tried to do and failed - wrecking the U.S. economy. That is where our power is.

All fingers point to Dubya. No one believes him now. They are tired of his scare tactics. Now when people really should believe our leaders, they can't. However, millions of businesses and individuals live day-to-day on credit. When that gets locked up - and it will if this doesn't pass - the economy will crash. This is not a sky-is-falling trick. It's reality.

Who are you two?? Speech writers for Nancy Pelosi???

This mess was created by them ALL...Democrats, Republicans and independents alike. John McCain TRIED to get something done in 2005, and was blocked by BOTH Republicans and Democrats.

The Bush administration tried no less that 17 times since 2003 to get Congress to listen.

Even Bill Clinton said the Democrats stopped him and THE REPUBLICANS from passing any legislation that would have tightened up regulation on Fannie and Freddie. ( The the election thread to see the quote and the clip from the interview.)

Now as to the Bill that didn't pass, if Nancy Pelosi hadn't gotten up and spouted off just prior to the vote, it would have passed, but the partisan old hag had open her yap and spew.

Not ONLY that the Bill wouldn't have done anything for anyone here. It would have added tremendously to the national debt, and screwed Joe and Jane average tax payer, while not fixing a DAMN thing.

If it wasn't 5 weeks before and election this whole thing would have been glossed over by congress and the market allowed to correct itself. Which is EXACTLY what it should do.

Our country has become remarkably short sighted, and never looks beyond the next 2 months. The stock market has returned an AVERAGE of 8% per year, averaged over time.

If people wouldn't panic irrationally over this it would correct itself in a matter of days or weeks.

Yes it is bad, and yes people lost money today, and probably will tomorrow, but that is short term, long term they will make it back and then some.

I agree 100% with about the first half of what you said. I don't agree that the bill wouldn't have done anything for anyone here. What I believe is that without some sort of intervention, it is going to be next to impossible for individuals to get loans. For example, Joe Schmoe won't be able to get a quick home equity loan for $25k to get his kitchen remodeled. That means Joe won't be buying new appliances, counter tops, flooring, cabinets, sink, faucet, etc. The stores that sell all of those items and the companies that make them will suffer. The people who do the labor will suffer. The small business owner who needs to get a loan to make payroll won't be able to get one. What will happen? Employees will be laid off until things improve. This is NOT something that I believe will correct itself in days or weeks. I think it will be corrected one way or the other, but it's going to take a LONG time. Even with the bailout, there would still be pain for all of us.

[RocknRoll]

The bigger question in whether banks or global companies can get loans or tradinng money? t they don't get it, we don't get it.

[The_Noble_Cause]

If you don't believe it's the latter, just look at Pelosi's completely hack partisan speech from earlier today.

Ok. Post it.
The Republicans are saying they were offended by it, yet news reports claims it only mentioned the word "Republican" once.
I don't agree with the baillout, but to use Pelosi for political cover is pretty weak.
Is it really so hard to have the courage of your political convictions to flat-out say it was a bad bill?
From distorted accusations of a personal jet to wearing a burka, the Republicans have cut Pelosi zero slack since she took the gavel.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Now as to the Bill that didn't pass, if Nancy Pelosi hadn't gotten up and spouted off just prior to the vote, it would have passed, but the partisan old hag had open her yap and spew.

That simply doesn't sound credible to me.
She is being used as the fall guy.
If you believe a piece of legislation is vital to holding the country together, you vote for it.
I don't care what she said.

[Barb]

Now as to the Bill that didn't pass, if Nancy Pelosi hadn't gotten up and spouted off just prior to the vote, it would have passed, but the partisan old hag had open her yap and spew.

That simply doesn't sound credible to me.
She is being used as the fall guy.
If you believe a piece of legislation is vital to holding the country together, you vote for it.
I don't care what she said.

Well, given that 40% of her own party wouldn't go along with it, it certainly did not help for her to be such a shrew right before the vote.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Well, given that 40% of her own party wouldn't go along with it, it certainly did not help for her to be such a shrew right before the vote.

Again, find me a transcript.
I've heard the mythology, now show me the text.
If the Republicans voted down the bill on the grounds of an incendiary speech, that seems pretty trivial.

[jrnychick]

Now as to the Bill that didn't pass, if Nancy Pelosi hadn't gotten up and spouted off just prior to the vote, it would have passed, but the partisan old hag had open her yap and spew.

That simply doesn't sound credible to me.
She is being used as the fall guy.
If you believe a piece of legislation is vital to holding the country together, you vote for it.
I don't care what she said.

I didn't hear her comments until this evening, but Pelosi completely cut the knees out from under the president. Considering she'd been out for the past several days saying that she was agreeing with this package because it was necessary, she really blew it. I could understand if she came out AFTER the bill passed the house and senate and said, "OK, this is how badly the republicans have screwed things up. Now let's get it fixed." I don't think most of the general public really has a grasp about how this problem affects their lives, so they don't want to see tax dollars going to fix it. I don't think Bush has done a very good job of explaining how this problem affects all of us.

[conversationpc]

If you don't believe it's the latter, just look at Pelosi's completely hack partisan speech from earlier today.

Ok. Post it.
The Republicans are saying they were offended by it, yet news reports claims it only mentioned the word "Republican" once.
I don't agree with the baillout, but to use Pelosi for political cover is pretty weak.

I didn't user her for political cover. I heard it on TV earlier but haven't seen it posted online. According to Pelosi, it was completely the Bush Administration's fault and there was no mention of any fault on the part of Democrats. I agree that if Republicans voted against it because of her speech, that is just a stupid reason, but Pelosi also should've taken the opportunity to show leadership instead of just continuing the partisan hack approach.

Is it really so hard to have the courage of your political convictions to flat-out say it was a bad bill?

I already did.

[Barb]

Well, given that 40% of her own party wouldn't go along with it, it certainly did not help for her to be such a shrew right before the vote.

Again, find me a transcript.
I've heard the mythology, now show me the text.
If the Republicans voted down the bill on the grounds of an incendiary speech, that seems pretty trivial.

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/184803.html

[RossValoryRocks]

Well, given that 40% of her own party wouldn't go along with it, it certainly did not help for her to be such a shrew right before the vote.

Again, find me a transcript.
I've heard the mythology, now show me the text.
If the Republicans voted down the bill on the grounds of an incendiary speech, that seems pretty trivial.

Wait??? You don't believe Pelosi made a partisan speech?

Here ya go:
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/184803.html

She's a c_ _t (fill in the blank) I would spit in her face if I ever met her.

[The_Noble_Cause]

If you don't believe it's the latter, just look at Pelosi's completely hack partisan speech from earlier today.

Ok. Post it.
The Republicans are saying they were offended by it, yet news reports claims it only mentioned the word "Republican" once.
I don't agree with the baillout, but to use Pelosi for political cover is pretty weak.

I didn't user her for political cover. I heard it on TV earlier but haven't seen it posted online. According to Pelosi, it was completely the Bush Administration's fault and there was no mention of any fault on the part of Democrats. I agree that if Republicans voted against it because of her speech, that is just a stupid reason, but Pelosi also should've taken the opportunity to show leadership instead of just continuing the partisan hack approach.

Is it really so hard to have the courage of your political convictions to flat-out say it was a bad bill?

I already did.

Not addressing any of us here...the Republican chorus line on CNN, MSNBC etc. has been laying the blame at the feet of Pelosi all day.
It seems like a convenient way of not defending the merits of their vote.

[Rhiannon]

Well, given that 40% of her own party wouldn't go along with it, it certainly did not help for her to be such a shrew right before the vote.

Again, find me a transcript.
I've heard the mythology, now show me the text.
If the Republicans voted down the bill on the grounds of an incendiary speech, that seems pretty trivial.

Wait??? You don't believe Pelosi made a partisan speech?

Here ya go:
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/184803.html

She's a c_ _t (fill in the blank) I would spit in her face if I ever met her.

UN. You're welcome.
BTW, Pelosi's sppech was highly unnecessary and way off base. It is one thing to have a partisan government, it keeps a good balance. It is a completely different thing to have a government fighting against itself.

[ProgRocker53]

This whole country is a clusterfuck anymore.

[conversationpc]

Not addressing any of us here...the Republican chorus line on CNN, MSNBC etc. has been laying the blame at the feet of Pelosi all day.

Fair enough and I agree completely.

Whatever their motives, the end result is the defeat of the bill, which is a good thing, in my opinion.

[conversationpc]

Two things I find really aggravating about Pelosi's speech...

1 - She mentions Barney Frank's "good work". If there are any politicans that deserve direct blame for this crisis, he is one of them.

2 - She mentions that this "snuck up" on us. Baloney. Anyone without blinders on could've seen something like this coming a mile away. I was aware that this could happen, though I didn't necessarily think it would be this soon.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Wait??? You don't believe Pelosi made a partisan speech?

No worse then the filibustering that happens in the chambers of Congress daily.
Another fake controversy, like the pro-drilling Repubs staying in the house until the lights were dimmed.
Amazing what an election year can do to make public servants leap to attention.

[conversationpc]

Wait??? You don't believe Pelosi made a partisan speech?

No worse then the filibustering that happens in the chambers of Congress daily.
Another fake controversy, like the pro-drilling Repubs staying in the house until the lights were dimmed.
Amazing what an election year can do to make public servants leap to attention.

This wasn't a normal day in Congress. It should've been a day to put partisan politics aside. Instead both Republicans and Democrats used it to try to gain political points...AGAIN.

[The_Noble_Cause]

This wasn't a normal day in Congress. It should've been a day to put partisan politics aside. Instead both Republicans and Democrats used it to try to gain political points...AGAIN.

I hear that, but I don't believe for one second the Republicans were soo aggrieved that they couldn't go about continuing America's business.
It's just a speech, and in the scheme of things, it's not the most radioactive one to have ever been given.
Total political dramaturgy.

[wastingbeerz]

It was Bush pushing for the fucking bailout and all you people do is blame democrats. How selective of you and how fucking predictable. You fucks who supported Bush through this whole thing should be the ones with extra money to pay back.

anyone who uses "you fucks" in threads like this pretty much lose any credibility they may have had going in.

Gotta love people who think that someone, just because they use a "curse" word (which in all actuality, is a word just made bad, not inherently bad on it's own but made so by society which in my opinion, doesn't count), loses all credibility, rather than actually looking at the rest of what they're saying they go for the easy cop-out. ::rolls eyes::


Anyhow, there was a valid point in there, if you turn off your "bad" language radar for a second. I don't claim to know everything, never have. But I do know that it's not fair to judge someone based on their choice of language.

If anyone's wondering, here's how I read it, not even caring about the "bad" words, I'll translate:

"It was Bush pushing for the bailout and all you people do is blame democrats. How selective of you and how predictable. You *stupid people*("bad" f-word was used for more emphasis, but I assure you, this is what was meant) who supported Bush through this whole thing should be the ones with extra money to pay back."


But anyhow, I never understood why the "F-word" was so harsh. Never understood why that was the one word you could never say. Never understood why there's this almost nervous, disgusted twinge in people every time it's said, how its very utterance can ruin a person's opinion of another. Seriously... its a word. It won't cause anything bad. It won't make anyone harm anyone else. It won't make a child turn into a criminal just because he hears someone say it, and repeats it. I've seen many friends of mine get beaten for saying that word when I was younger. It just makes no sense to me. JUST A WORD. And if any or everyone think it's ridiculous that I'm going this far with such a small point, then I've succeeded. The whole fact that this sort of thing is still an issue these days is absurd. IT IS JUST A FLIPPING WORD!!! Lets try this again, see if you read it this time, add some more punch... IT IS JUST A FUCKING WORD!!!

[conversationpc]

This wasn't a normal day in Congress. It should've been a day to put partisan politics aside. Instead both Republicans and Democrats used it to try to gain political points...AGAIN.

I hear that, but I don't believe for one second the Republicans were soo aggrieved that they couldn't go about continuing America's business.
It's just a speech, and in the scheme of things, it's not the most radioactive one to have ever been given.
Political dramaturgy.

As I said, I agree but Pelosi is the Speaker of the House, effectively second in line for the Presidency. She should've been above that regardless. The Republicans that put any blame on her deserve as much blame.

[The_Noble_Cause]

The Republicans that put any blame on her deserve as much blame.

They can throw that in there, sure, but how about focusing on the failures of the bill?
Opposition to this exists on both sides of political spectrum (at least online), but I am hearing precious little of it on the news.

[RossValoryRocks]

This wasn't a normal day in Congress. It should've been a day to put partisan politics aside. Instead both Republicans and Democrats used it to try to gain political points...AGAIN.

I hear that, but I don't believe for one second the Republicans were soo aggrieved that they couldn't go about continuing America's business.
It's just a speech, and in the scheme of things, it's not the most radioactive one to have ever been given.
Total political dramaturgy.

All the democrats had to do was get TEN, 10, JUST 10 of the democrats who voted against it to vote for it and the bill passes...regardless of how the republicans voted.

The Speaker of House couldn't get 10 votes from her MAJORITY party. Seems others aren't real keen on her leadership.

[conversationpc]

The Republicans that put any blame on her deserve as much blame.

They can throw that in there, sure, but how about focusing on the failures of the bill?
Opposition to this exists on both sides of political spectrum (at least online), but I am hearing precious little of it on the news.

You're right...Most of what I've heard has concentrated on just the fact that it didn't pass or about Pelosi's speech and the fallout from it.

[The_Noble_Cause]

All the democrats had to do was get TEN, 10, JUST 10 of the democrats who voted against it to vote for it and the bill passes...regardless of how the republicans voted.

What's your point?

[Voyager]

Every single guest on Larry King just said that they should have passed the bailout. No, they were not all liberals either.