OT: Proposition 8

[Rick]

All are encouraged to participate in this thread, but please keep it civil. This is definitely a hotbed issue.

I'm posting this knowing that the good membership of MR can handle a topic of this nature without resorting to hate or ridicule. If it goes beyond that, I'll see to it that this thread is locked or removed.

Proposition 8 bans gay marriage in the state of California.

Are you for the ban or against it?

[Voyager]

Gay people do not threaten my sexuality, so I could care less if they get married. I don't have anything against interracial marriages either.

I've heard some very bigoted arguments against gay marriage, such as "Where do we draw the line... should we let people marry animals?" That is ridiculous! We're not talking about animals, we're talking relationships between two human beings.

I don't see any valid argument against it. I am a heterosexual, and I was allowed to marry my wife. Why should I try to stop someone else from marrying their loved one? I just don't see where it is any of my business or anyone else's.

Most of the opposition comes from the religious right who feel the obligation to tell other people how they should live their lives. To me that is crossing the line between church and state.

I think we have much bigger issues than this for our government to be focusing on... like the 1.2 million jobs that have evaporated in the USA this year.

[treetopovskaya]

cali is a dem state so some dems had to vote yes on 8 for it to pass... a lot of dems voted yes. just saying. mostly hispanics & african americans voted yes... from what the polls say.

i'm surprised prop 4 didn't pass.

VERY happy prop 2 passed. }=CDD

(wtf... it's 3:30am! the wind woke me up!)

[Babyblue]

I don't feel its right.JMO!

[Uno_up]

Leviticus 18:22
(King James Version): "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

[Liquid_Drummer]

The religious right scares me to death. From personal dealing with these "people" I have found that they wont be happy until everyone lives as they live. They do not seem to be willing to let people with opposing views live as they want to live.

The mormon church gave like $20 million to support this ban. How much did they give to struggling families or people in their own backyard that have lost jobs and their houses ? A lot I am sure however does it measure up to what then spent on relief efforts ? No it does not.

Gay wedlock should be the least of anyone concerns right now considering our financial situation. That $20 million could have helped so many people but instead it just makes sure gay people cant marry. This is so misguided that I am just beside myself..

I do not accept religion or its views being forced down my throat via politics or any other form. Politics and religion combined does not serve the greater good. Of course you cant please everyone. I know this country was founded on religious values but that was a very long time ago and nearly everyone was religious because back then if you proclaimed yourself agnostic you could have been killed for it. Now that you can choose your own adventure these principals are outdated and unneeded.

People that want to live that way can live that way.

The religious right needs to keep to itself and learn to live and let live. Leave me alone and stay out of my life.. I believe in god my own way and do not need to go inside of $20 million dollar church to express it. Another thing that burns me up.. These churches that cost in the 10 to 25 million dollar range.. Is there any need to spend that much money on a house of worship ? Religion is as corrupt as politics.

I am not gay and dont care if gay people marry or not. I am very bothered that the religious right is so interested in controlling others lives. Live and ****ing let live...

Gay people are dealing with the same thing black people dealt with in the past. Discrimination. Now we have a black president so thats one barrier knocked down. Now I guess we need a gay president to knock over the next one.

[Lula]

it saddens me that human rights is an issue in my beautiful state. i am against the ban. i am against revising the constitution. i am against the influence of religion when deciding law and policy for the state. i am embarrassed that animals raised for food (pigs and chickens) have more rights in my state than human beings wishing to marry the person they love, f-ing embarrassing!

[FishinMagician]

Gay people do not threaten my sexuality, so I could care less if they get married. I don't have anything against interracial marriages either.

I've heard some very bigoted arguments against gay marriage, such as "Where do we draw the line... should we let people marry animals?" That is ridiculous! We're not talking about animals, we're talking relationships between two human beings.

I don't see any valid argument against it. I am a heterosexual, and I was allowed to marry my wife. Why should I try to stop someone else from marrying their loved one? I just don't see where it is any of my business or anyone else's.

Most of the opposition comes from the religious right who feel the obligation to tell other people how they should live their lives. To me that is crossing the line between church and state.

I think we have much bigger issues than this for our government to be focusing on... like the 1.2 million jobs that have evaporated in the USA this year.

i agree with that. also, inter-racial marriage was banned until not too long ago, and today you don't hear too much against that except from racists. they used a similar argument " where do we draw the line" and " it will destroy our society". just something to think about

[Jana]

I believe people should be able to love who they wish and have the same rights. I was raised Baptist, became Presbyterian in my adulthood, but I feel I am an open-minded person and use common sense in a lot of my opinions, and not what a doctrine tells me.

I once lived in a gated country club neighborhood, which was a little snobbish. But across from us was a middle-aged male gay couple. They had bought a home next to one of their mothers because she was very elderly and frail and they did not want to move her into a nursing home. They did this even though they didn't, at first, feel that comfortable in this conservative neighborhood. Her other adult children weren't that involved in her care and some lived outside the area. He and his partner did everything for her and were excellent residents and neighbors in the community, very giving of their time.

She once shared with me that it was so hard for her when he admitted he was gay and was so ashamed due to her religious beliefs and also the times that she lived in, but that deep down she had known he was different since he was a young child.
But she said as the years went on and to have him in her life she had to accept his partner of 20 years and she came to love him also, and began to look at things differently. She shared with me the love that both of them have shown her and what they have done and sacrificed over the years to ensure she could stay in her home from the age of 80 to 90, while she was in ill health, nursing her through cancer, taking care of all of her medical needs, taking care of her house.

Stories like these over the years opened my mind and heart and helped shape my opinion that gays should have the same rights and because they were born different not feel that they are less than any other human being. Remember, these are the sons and daughters of someone and may well be one of your sons or daughters someday. Peace.

[Ehwmatt]

I'm not going to make it my personal goal to ban it, I'm also certainly not going to feel bad when things like Prop 8 are passed. It doesn't really bother me what gays do, but for my part, I wouldn't want to be taking my kids for a walk down a city street to see "gay in action" any more than I'd want them to see straight people showing too much public affection, a drunk with a dirty mouth at a sports event, or female strippers. I don't need or want their lifestyle foisted on me and my own eyes any more than they need people telling them not to be gay.

I also vehemently oppose gay couples' raising children, whether adopted or in vitro/whatever else on the women's side. That's where I draw the line. They are welcome to marry, cohabitate, interact sexually with one another, whatever else you can think of, but that is not a fair environment to place a child in no matter how loving or doting the couple is.

[Rick]

I was brought up in the Church of Christ, so you know how I was taught. I was taught to look upon homosexuals as deviants and perverts that are mentally ill.

When I was 20, I hired on at a place that had a large contingent of "in the closet" gay people working there. Back in the early 80's, it wasn't yet acceptable to live openly gay.

As the years passed, more and more gay people became open about their orientation, and people I've known for years, including a fairly good friend, had been living an "in the closet" gay lifestyle. It became apparent to me that gay people are just people, trying to make their way through life, just like anyone else.

It's been a huge revelation of sorts, to find out that the way I was taught all of my childhood life, was indeed hateful and ignorant. I still have to fight sometimes not to fall back into that hateful and ignorant thinking, but I'm leaps and bounds from where I was as a child and young man.

You'll never find me skinny dipping with gay men, but I'm happy for them if they want to do that.

As for them being able to be married, I'm still working on that one. I want them to be who they are and live how they want. I definitely think they're entitled to all the benefits a married couple have.

While I feel I've made strides in the tolerance department, I'm just not sure I'm ready to let go of marriage being between a man and a woman. I've heard all the arguments about how heterosexuals have already spoiled the sanctity of marriage, but that's not the point. It's how each individual person feels about it. I still see it as something pure and holy.

I guess that Church of Christ mentality is still there to some degree. I'm working on it.

[bluejeangirl76]

Leviticus 18:22
(King James Version): "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

More highly selective bible quoting. That's chapter 18... long before they ever deal with that issue... chapter 11 says:

Leviticus 11:9-12
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. 10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: 11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. 12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Ever eat a shrimp? Oysters Rockefeller? That's a SIN.
Isn't is lovely how people turn to the bible only when they personally don't like something and want backup from the man upstairs?

Here's a better one... chapter 15... still a more urgent matter than gays way back in chapter 18...

15:19 And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.

15:29 And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
15:30 And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness.

Two turtles or two pigeons? When I was 12 it was enough of a pain in the ass to sneak around an Always pad because we weren't allowed to carry purses in junior high. Turtles?!

Point being, either adhere to all of it or stop using just the convenient parts.

By the way Rick... good luck on having this not turn into a hateful thread.
But kudos to you for the way you presented your opinion. Very respectful.

[Ehwmatt]

I was brought up in the Church of Christ, so you know how I was taught. I was taught to look upon homosexuals as deviants and perverts that are mentally ill.

When I was 20, I hired on at a place that had a large contingent of "in the closet" gay people working there. Back in the early 80's, it wasn't yet acceptable to live openly gay.

As the years passed, more and more gay people became open about their orientation, and people I've known for years, including a fairly good friend, had been living an "in the closet" gay lifestyle. It became apparent to me that gay people are just people, trying to make their way through life, just like anyone else.

It's been a huge revelation of sorts, to find out that the way I was taught all of my childhood life, was indeed hateful and ignorant. I still have to fight sometimes not to fall back into that hateful and ignorant thinking, but I'm leaps and bounds from where I was as a child and young man.

You'll never find me skinny dipping with gay men, but I'm happy for them if they want to do that.

As for them being able to be married, I'm still working on that one. I want them to be who they are and live how they want. I definitely think they're entitled to all the benefits a married couple have.

While I feel I've made strides in the tolerance department, I'm just not sure I'm ready to let go of marriage being between a man and a woman. I've heard all the arguments about how heterosexuals have already spoiled the sanctity of marriage, but that's not the point. It's how each individual person feels about it. I still see it as something pure and holy.

I guess that Church of Christ mentality is still there to some degree. I'm working on it.

I had a gay guy come and play on my college tennis team for a semester before he transferred. Great guy, still in touch with him. Also, the best musician I've ever played with was a violinist at my high school and he's gay. Again, great guy... little whacky, but really nice guy. Incredible musician as well - Brad Paisley or some country artist came to town, his violin player fell ill, and they got this kid's name and he stood in and supposedly blew Brad (or whoever it was) away. There's nothing wrong with being friends with gays. I probably won't have much in common with the ones wearing assless chaps and walking around really liberal areas of MA, but an average, well-grounded gay person? There is no reason not to try and be friends with them if you got other shit in common.

[Jana]

Rick, your post was very thoughtful and honest regarding your evolution, open-mindedness and yet admitting what you still struggle with regarding the issue. I feel you probably speak for a lot of people. It took me a lot of years and it was an evolution of acceptance step by step through, like you said, coming across a lot of great people through the years who are gay and wonderful people and hardworking, and one being, as I mentioned on another thread, a gay friend, who struggled his whole life with admitting who he was and realizing all the pain he went through and because of his religious convictions and society not being able to admit his sexual orientation to himself or the world.

[StevePerryHair]

Florida voted majority, only by 2%, for an amendment to be made in our state constitution to say "one man/one woman" for marriage. I don't know how I would vote for gay marriage, though I think I know how I would vote since I have a very close famiy member who is gay and I can feel for the desire and why. It's not just about being "married" to them. It's about having rights. Rights such as being next of kin when they are injured or lose the person they have committed to for their whole lives. It's not just about insurance and money. Although I can see why they would want those rights too. Should all their life insurance go to family members, some of whom have cut them off completely in life, or to the person they share their life with? Those are the things that make it a little easier for me to see why it's so important to them. I was very disappointed they are changing our constitution. I was very much against any changes and I seriously think a lot of people were tricked into it, not really understanding even what they were voting for because of the "fear" that is thrown out there at them. I wouldnt' doubt some actually thought they were voting against gay marriage which is not what this amendment was for. Oh, but we need that amendment right, or a guy may challenge it and marry a pig Until you have someone you love very much who you are very close to who is gay, you really can't understand.

[Lula]

I also vehemently oppose gay couples' raising children, whether adopted or in vitro/whatever else on the women's side. That's where I draw the line. They are welcome to marry, cohabitate, interact sexually with one another, whatever else you can think of, but that is not a fair environment to place a child in no matter how loving or doting the couple is.

please really think about this. you actually think children living in foster care, children no one wants to adopt, are better off? i know a gay couple that just adopted a brother and sister born to a crack addict. no one in the family would take the children into their home. the boy is aggressive and has trouble at school- first grade. the girl is in preschool. these children are fortunate to have been given a home with loving parents and to remain together. you really need to think about the importance of children growing up in a secure loving environment- gay or straight.

[StevePerryHair]

I also vehemently oppose gay couples' raising children, whether adopted or in vitro/whatever else on the women's side. That's where I draw the line. They are welcome to marry, cohabitate, interact sexually with one another, whatever else you can think of, but that is not a fair environment to place a child in no matter how loving or doting the couple is.

please really think about this. you actually think children living in foster care, children no one wants to adopt, are better off? i know a gay couple that just adopted a brother and sister born to a crack addict. no one in the family would take the children into their home. the boy is aggressive and has trouble at school- first grade. the girl is in preschool. these children are fortunate to have been given a home with loving parents and to remain together. you really need to think about the importance of children growing up in a secure loving environment- gay or straight.

Exactly! Do you know in the state of Florida, a GAY couple can foster a child with HIV, but they can enver adopt them? It makes NO sense.

[Enigma869]

The religious right scares me to death. From personal dealing with these "people" I have found that they wont be happy until everyone lives as they live. They do not seem to be willing to let people with opposing views live as they want to live.

The mormon church gave like $20 million to support this ban. How much did they give to struggling families or people in their own backyard that have lost jobs and their houses ? A lot I am sure however does it measure up to what then spent on relief efforts ? No it does not.

Gay wedlock should be the least of anyone concerns right now considering our financial situation. That $20 million could have helped so many people but instead it just makes sure gay people cant marry. This is so misguided that I am just beside myself..

I do not accept religion or its views being forced down my throat via politics or any other form. Politics and religion combined does not serve the greater good. Of course you cant please everyone. I know this country was founded on religious values but that was a very long time ago and nearly everyone was religious because back then if you proclaimed yourself agnostic you could have been killed for it. Now that you can choose your own adventure these principals are outdated and unneeded.

People that want to live that way can live that way.

The religious right needs to keep to itself and learn to live and let live. Leave me alone and stay out of my life.. I believe in god my own way and do not need to go inside of $20 million dollar church to express it. Another thing that burns me up.. These churches that cost in the 10 to 25 million dollar range.. Is there any need to spend that much money on a house of worship ? Religion is as corrupt as politics.

I am not gay and dont care if gay people marry or not. I am very bothered that the religious right is so interested in controlling others lives. Live and ****ing let live...

Gay people are dealing with the same thing black people dealt with in the past. Discrimination. Now we have a black president so thats one barrier knocked down. Now I guess we need a gay president to knock over the next one.

GREAT, GREAT, GREAT post, dude!


John from Boston

[Ehwmatt]

I also vehemently oppose gay couples' raising children, whether adopted or in vitro/whatever else on the women's side. That's where I draw the line. They are welcome to marry, cohabitate, interact sexually with one another, whatever else you can think of, but that is not a fair environment to place a child in no matter how loving or doting the couple is.

please really think about this. you actually think children living in foster care, children no one wants to adopt, are better off? i know a gay couple that just adopted a brother and sister born to a crack addict. no one in the family would take the children into their home. the boy is aggressive and has trouble at school- first grade. the girl is in preschool. these children are fortunate to have been given a home with loving parents and to remain together. you really need to think about the importance of children growing up in a secure loving environment- gay or straight.

Exactly! Do you know in the state of Florida, a GAY couple can foster a child with HIV, but they can enver adopt them? It makes NO sense.

I've heard this argument, it's a red herring. No I don't think those children are well-off either. It's a lose-lose there. Troubled kids do NOT need the added confusion of living under a roof with two dads or two moms, as it were. That's one place where I stand firm. I'm not willing to extend the culture of tolerance/P.C.-ness infinitely. I'm very accepting of gays otherwise

[Enigma869]

I also vehemently oppose gay couples' raising children, whether adopted or in vitro/whatever else on the women's side. That's where I draw the line. They are welcome to marry, cohabitate, interact sexually with one another, whatever else you can think of, but that is not a fair environment to place a child in no matter how loving or doting the couple is.

Do you have any idea how many unwanted children there are in the world who simply want a family to love them? Do you have any idea how many heterosexual couples neglect and abuse their children? Someone's sexual orientation shouldn't be a consideration for parenting a child! This notion that homosexual couples don't have the ability to parent or are going to turn their children gay is absurd! My mother is one of 9 children and she happens to have one gay sibling (brother) who has been with the same partner for 35 years. They were all raised in the same family by the same parents and only one of 9 was not heterosexual. I have also known children who were raised by gay parents who are disgustingly heterosexual. If it's simply against your religion, fine. If you think gay people turn children gay, that is plain ignorance!


John from Boston

[DrFU]

Two turtles or two pigeons? When I was 12 it was enough of a pain in the ass to sneak around an Always pad because we weren't allowed to carry purses in junior high. Turtles?!

BJG, you're cracking me up ... as usual

I think two people who are lucky enough to love someone who loves them back and who want to commit to one another should have the full blessing and protection of our laws and courts.

[StevePerryHair]

I also vehemently oppose gay couples' raising children, whether adopted or in vitro/whatever else on the women's side. That's where I draw the line. They are welcome to marry, cohabitate, interact sexually with one another, whatever else you can think of, but that is not a fair environment to place a child in no matter how loving or doting the couple is.

please really think about this. you actually think children living in foster care, children no one wants to adopt, are better off? i know a gay couple that just adopted a brother and sister born to a crack addict. no one in the family would take the children into their home. the boy is aggressive and has trouble at school- first grade. the girl is in preschool. these children are fortunate to have been given a home with loving parents and to remain together. you really need to think about the importance of children growing up in a secure loving environment- gay or straight.

Exactly! Do you know in the state of Florida, a GAY couple can foster a child with HIV, but they can enver adopt them? It makes NO sense.

I've heard this argument, it's a red herring. No I don't think those children are well-off either. It's a lose-lose there. Troubled kids do NOT need the added confusion of living under a roof with two dads or two moms, as it were. That's one place where I stand firm. I'm not willing to extend the culture of tolerance/P.C.-ness infinitely. I'm very accepting of gays otherwise

I don't know. I mean there is a lesbian couple in our school. They are very open about it in that everyone knows, it's obvious and they do not try to hide that fact. They have son together. Now they are female gay women, so they CAN have child and no law says they can't. They are raising a son. He is a very well adjusted, smart, intellegent 4th grader. My daughter told me back in second grade that he has "two moms" so that's how it is understood by the children. Their minds in elementary school don't understand yet I suppose. I watch these women, and they are MORE involved in things with their son then MOST of the straight parents I see raising children. When there is a volunteer job, they are there. They give of their time and from what I see they are great parents. How do you see this as harmful to him? I mean he seems pretty happy to me. And he has two parents who absolutely love him, something that some children from straight homes will sadly never experience. They are RESPONSIBLE parents, gay or not. Not flauting sexuality, just being people like we are. Just living their lives and keeping what they do in the bedroom private. I just don't see the harm. Now the only people I can see who would have a problem with this are those that think gay is not something you are born with, but something you learn. And they think they will make their children gay maybe? Which I do not agree with. And I don't want to hear the theories about how picked on they will be because my daughter gets picked on for her round cheeks and wearing the wrong jeans to school. Kids get picked on, it's a fact and they just look for a weakness and go in for the kill. I just don't see why it should make a difference if it can be proven that it is a loving home. Love is love and people are people.

[Jana]

As StevePerryHair stated, in Florida a gay couple can foster children but have not had the ability to adopt. I have watched shows that highlighted some of these couples. In Florida, our foster care system is in many ways a complete disaster, understaffed. Children are passed from foster home to foster home and on and on and never know what stability or true love is from a parental figure.

One feature showed a gay couple who took on the ones which were hard to place because of a host of issues, and the dedication and love and devotion of these two men to all of these unwanted children was simply amazing. A lot of gay couples acutally put a lot more thought and energy into parenting than many heterosexual couples do.

[Arkansas]

The religious right scares me to death. From personal dealing with these "people" I have found that they wont be happy until everyone lives as they live. They do not seem to be willing to let people with opposing views live as they want to live.

The mormon church gave like $20 million to support this ban. How much did they give to struggling families or people in their own backyard that have lost jobs and their houses ? A lot I am sure however does it measure up to what then spent on relief efforts ? No it does not.

Gay wedlock should be the least of anyone concerns right now considering our financial situation. That $20 million could have helped so many people but instead it just makes sure gay people cant marry. This is so misguided that I am just beside myself..

I do not accept religion or its views being forced down my throat via politics or any other form. Politics and religion combined does not serve the greater good. Of course you cant please everyone. I know this country was founded on religious values but that was a very long time ago and nearly everyone was religious because back then if you proclaimed yourself agnostic you could have been killed for it. Now that you can choose your own adventure these principals are outdated and unneeded.

People that want to live that way can live that way.

The religious right needs to keep to itself and learn to live and let live. Leave me alone and stay out of my life.. I believe in god my own way and do not need to go inside of $20 million dollar church to express it. Another thing that burns me up.. These churches that cost in the 10 to 25 million dollar range.. Is there any need to spend that much money on a house of worship ? Religion is as corrupt as politics.

I am not gay and dont care if gay people marry or not. I am very bothered that the religious right is so interested in controlling others lives. Live and ****ing let live...

Gay people are dealing with the same thing black people dealt with in the past. Discrimination. Now we have a black president so thats one barrier knocked down. Now I guess we need a gay president to knock over the next one.

So, in California it was ONLY the 'religious right' that voted for Prop 8 ?


later~

[Ehwmatt]

I also vehemently oppose gay couples' raising children, whether adopted or in vitro/whatever else on the women's side. That's where I draw the line. They are welcome to marry, cohabitate, interact sexually with one another, whatever else you can think of, but that is not a fair environment to place a child in no matter how loving or doting the couple is.

Do you have any idea how many unwanted children there are in the world who simply want a family to love them? Do you have any idea how many heterosexual couples neglect and abuse their children? Someone's sexual orientation shouldn't be a consideration for parenting a child! This notion that homosexual couples don't have the ability to parent or are going to turn their children gay is absurd! My mother is one of 9 children and she happens to have one gay sibling (brother) who has been with the same partner for 35 years. They were all raised in the same family by the same parents and only one of 9 was not heterosexual. I have also known children who were raised by gay parents who are disgustingly heterosexual. If it's simply against your religion, fine. If you think gay people turn children gay, that is plain ignorance!


John from Boston

I am Catholic in name only, I'm an Easter and Christmas church-goer and even there I feel nothing from it. I don't think they turn them gay either. I just think there are too many variables that enter into the gay couple raising children scenario. My aunt's brother is gay, he is at pretty much all family functions. I have two really good gay friends (I'm sure that won't be enough for some of you, I should go look for more). So, I don't need to defend myself from the usual intolerance accusations. I'm anything but.

I just think there are far too many scenarios where living with a gay couple would be very detrimental to a child's mental health. The whispers on the school bus. The taunts on the play ground. The funny looks when they go out for dinner. Even in this era of tolerance and P.C., you're fooling yourself if you don't think some of that shit will go on. You get the idea. I don't think a child should be forced to confront that stuff.


That goes ESPECIALLY for the said troubled, unwanted ones. Sure, the roof over their head is nice and better than sitting in an orphanage til 18, but I'm not willing to open those flood gates.

[bluejeangirl76]

The religious right scares me to death. From personal dealing with these "people" I have found that they wont be happy until everyone lives as they live. They do not seem to be willing to let people with opposing views live as they want to live.

The mormon church gave like $20 million to support this ban. How much did they give to struggling families or people in their own backyard that have lost jobs and their houses ? A lot I am sure however does it measure up to what then spent on relief efforts ? No it does not.

Gay wedlock should be the least of anyone concerns right now considering our financial situation. That $20 million could have helped so many people but instead it just makes sure gay people cant marry. This is so misguided that I am just beside myself..

I do not accept religion or its views being forced down my throat via politics or any other form. Politics and religion combined does not serve the greater good. Of course you cant please everyone. I know this country was founded on religious values but that was a very long time ago and nearly everyone was religious because back then if you proclaimed yourself agnostic you could have been killed for it. Now that you can choose your own adventure these principals are outdated and unneeded.

People that want to live that way can live that way.

The religious right needs to keep to itself and learn to live and let live. Leave me alone and stay out of my life.. I believe in god my own way and do not need to go inside of $20 million dollar church to express it. Another thing that burns me up.. These churches that cost in the 10 to 25 million dollar range.. Is there any need to spend that much money on a house of worship ? Religion is as corrupt as politics.

I am not gay and dont care if gay people marry or not. I am very bothered that the religious right is so interested in controlling others lives. Live and ****ing let live...

Gay people are dealing with the same thing black people dealt with in the past. Discrimination. Now we have a black president so thats one barrier knocked down. Now I guess we need a gay president to knock over the next one.

GREAT, GREAT, GREAT post, dude!

Goes double. People put more money and effort into hatred and opposition in this country than I can even believe, when there are so many other things that matter SO much more. Its fucking sickening.

p.s. when the Roman Catholic church (that I grew up in, btw) stops covering up for their servants of god who are molesting little boys, I'll be happy to listen to their side of this debate. Until then, they can STFU about it.

[StevePerryHair]

I also vehemently oppose gay couples' raising children, whether adopted or in vitro/whatever else on the women's side. That's where I draw the line. They are welcome to marry, cohabitate, interact sexually with one another, whatever else you can think of, but that is not a fair environment to place a child in no matter how loving or doting the couple is.

Do you have any idea how many unwanted children there are in the world who simply want a family to love them? Do you have any idea how many heterosexual couples neglect and abuse their children? Someone's sexual orientation shouldn't be a consideration for parenting a child! This notion that homosexual couples don't have the ability to parent or are going to turn their children gay is absurd! My mother is one of 9 children and she happens to have one gay sibling (brother) who has been with the same partner for 35 years. They were all raised in the same family by the same parents and only one of 9 was not heterosexual. I have also known children who were raised by gay parents who are disgustingly heterosexual. If it's simply against your religion, fine. If you think gay people turn children gay, that is plain ignorance!


John from Boston

I am Catholic in name only, I'm an Easter and Christmas church-goer and even there I feel nothing from it. I don't think they turn them gay either. I just think there are too many variables that enter into the gay couple raising children scenario. My aunt's brother is gay, he is at pretty much all family functions. I have two really good gay friends (I'm sure that won't be enough for some of you, I should go look for more). So, I don't need to defend myself from the usual intolerance accusations. I'm anything but.

I just think there are far too many scenarios where living with a gay couple would be very detrimental to a child's mental health. The whispers on the school bus. The taunts on the play ground. The funny looks when they go out for dinner. Even in this era of tolerance and P.C., you're fooling yourself if you don't think some of that shit will go on. You get the idea. I don't think a child should be forced to confront that stuff.


That goes ESPECIALLY for the said troubled, unwanted ones. Sure, the roof over their head is nice and better than sitting in an orphanage til 18, but I'm not willing to open those flood gates.

I don't buy the "getting picked on" thing as a reason as I stated above. My kids get picked of for things everday, and I have to work on them to build their self esteem and make them strong so they can overcome the stupidy of youth. If they aren't picked on for that, it would be something else. Kids are just mean. But we all survive it and we all move on and grow up. It's called life.

[SteveForever]

Two turtles or two pigeons? When I was 12 it was enough of a pain in the ass to sneak around an Always pad because we weren't allowed to carry purses in junior high. Turtles?!

BJG, you're cracking me up ... as usual

I think two people who are lucky enough to love someone who loves them back and who want to commit to one another should have the full blessing and protection of our laws and courts.

Agree 100% and if you want someone on your insurance you should have every right to that.
You can adopt another adult so .....?

[SteveForever]

I also vehemently oppose gay couples' raising children, whether adopted or in vitro/whatever else on the women's side. That's where I draw the line. They are welcome to marry, cohabitate, interact sexually with one another, whatever else you can think of, but that is not a fair environment to place a child in no matter how loving or doting the couple is.

please really think about this. you actually think children living in foster care, children no one wants to adopt, are better off? i know a gay couple that just adopted a brother and sister born to a crack addict. no one in the family would take the children into their home. the boy is aggressive and has trouble at school- first grade. the girl is in preschool. these children are fortunate to have been given a home with loving parents and to remain together. you really need to think about the importance of children growing up in a secure loving environment- gay or straight.

Exactly! Do you know in the state of Florida, a GAY couple can foster a child with HIV, but they can enver adopt them? It makes NO sense.

I've heard this argument, it's a red herring. No I don't think those children are well-off either. It's a lose-lose there. Troubled kids do NOT need the added confusion of living under a roof with two dads or two moms, as it were. That's one place where I stand firm. I'm not willing to extend the culture of tolerance/P.C.-ness infinitely. I'm very accepting of gays otherwise

Matt, may I ask how old you are? We aren't living in a perfect world and many many "straight" couples live crazy alternative lifestyles
and no one is going in their homes and taking away their rights as parents...

[Voyager]

The reason people hate gayness is because it is something that is foreign to most people. Because they don't have an attraction to people of the same sex, they see homosexuality as something deviant and evil. This is the same type of bigotry that people have towards interracial marriages. When the community at large becomes opposed to something, the people in the group develop a dislike or even a hatred towards it. This is why different cultures have different religious beliefs. Muslim communities turn out more Muslims... Christian communities turn out more Christians... and bigoted communities turn out more bigots.

Tell me this... why do people single out gays for religious condemnation based on Bible verses, when the same chapter in Deutoronomy that commands us to kill gays also tells us to kill non-virgin brides, adulterers, sorcerers, rebellious children, etc.?