OT: Proposition 8

[epresley]

Gay people do not threaten my sexuality, so I could care less if they get married. I don't have anything against interracial marriages either.

I've heard some very bigoted arguments against gay marriage, such as "Where do we draw the line... should we let people marry animals?" That is ridiculous! We're not talking about animals, we're talking relationships between two human beings.

I don't see any valid argument against it. I am a heterosexual, and I was allowed to marry my wife. Why should I try to stop someone else from marrying their loved one? I just don't see where it is any of my business or anyone else's.

Most of the opposition comes from the religious right who feel the obligation to tell other people how they should live their lives. To me that is crossing the line between church and state.

I think we have much bigger issues than this for our government to be focusing on... like the 1.2 million jobs that have evaporated in the USA this year.

What Voyager said.

[Ehwmatt]

Again, save this arrogance of "Hey, don't ask me to like or encourage it". I don't think homosexual couples care about your endorsement any more than a heterosexual couple does! Nobody is asking you to "like or encourage" anything. It's not about making everyone happy. It's about offering all human beings the same rights and entitlements and not discriminating for no other reason, other than sexual orientation! As for your last point about shoving an idea, lifestyle, or relationship down someone's throat, I'm not sure I even get your point. I personally haven't interacted with any homosexuals that are attempting to force their way of life on anyone. Just because they are seeking equal rights doesn't mean that their trying to force their way of life on the world. There was a time in this country (and in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't all that long ago) that women were second class citizens and couldn't even vote. Just because the social mores' are the way they are doesn't mean that people shouldn't challenge the conventional thinking. Nothing great has ever happened in this country without people challenging ideas and questioning the establishment. In my opinion, this country shouldn't be one where people believe that if someone doesn't life their life the way they do, they should not have the same rights and entitlements!

John from Boston

If you really think anything in my post was anywhere near approaching arrogant, then you missed the essence of it entirely. The point is, people have to meet in the middle. People with a certain moral set will never say "Ok, great, you're gay, that's a positive trait." People on the far liberal side certainly try and shove the matter down people's throats. You can't tell someone with a certain set of morals that they have to accept homosexuality as morally neutral or morally equivalent to a heterosexual relationship. That offends them just as much as their beliefs offend you.

Most people aren't going to cringe or even worry about being in the very presence of a gay. This isn't 1982 anymore. We've come a long way in that respect. But, many people will never be morally "okay" with homosexual acts, and however looney you might think that sounds, that is their value set. They are allowed to hold those values just as much as you are allowed to hold whatever values you have, as long as they aren't going around beating gays and perpetrating hate.

The bottom line, gays are here to stay, we've come a long way in getting over the ridiculous HIV stereotypes and homophobia (it will always exist, like racism, but more isolated), and it would benefit everyone to exist peacefully and not draw attention to the extreme views on either side.

[Voyager]

I think most men are paranoid of gays for several reasons:

1. They are worried that their gayness may rub off on them.

2. They are worried that gay men might try to have sex with them.

3. Religious tradition tells them it is wrong.

4. They do not have a similar attraction to men, so it seems deviant to them.

I used to embrace all of these bigotries myself until I found out that one of my close friends was gay. He is the kindest, most considerate person you could ever meet. I've never even heard him cuss or get angry about anything. For a while I stayed away from him... until I realized that it didn't change why I liked him as a friend. His gayness does not threaten my manhood. I am still attracted to women, still married to my wife of 20 years, and have never had any attraction to men. This guy does not flaunt his gayness as a rare minority do. I only found out about it by accident. When I asked him about it, he didn't want to discuss it. He said that what he did in his bedroom was no one else's business. He knows I am married and have no interest in being gay.

Once you get to know someone who is gay, you will find out that they are not as evil as you may think. The problem is that the majority of humans don't even know any gay people.

[Ehwmatt]

I think most men are paranoid of gays for several reasons:

1. They are worried that their gayness may rub off on them.

2. They are worried that gay men might try to have sex with them.

3. Religious tradition tells them it is wrong.

4. They do not have a similar attraction to men, so it seems deviant to them.

I used to embrace all of these bigotries myself until I found out that one of my close friends was gay. He is the kindest, most considerate person you could ever meet. I've never even heard him cuss or get angry about anything. For a while I stayed away from him... until I realized that it didn't change why I liked him as a friend. His gayness does not threaten my manhood. I am still attracted to women, still married to my wife of 20 years, and have never had any attraction to men. This guy does not flaunt his gayness as a rare minority do. I only found out about it by accident. When I asked him about it, he didn't want to discuss it. He said that what he did in his bedroom was no one else's business. He knows I am married and have no interest in being gay.

Once you get to know someone who is gay, you will find out that they are not as evil as you may think. The problem is that the majority of humans don't even know any gay people.

It's true, you really just have to get to know a gay person really well, or better yet, find out someone you've known all along as a normal person is in fact gay

[Tito]

I think most men are paranoid of gays for several reasons:

1. They are worried that their gayness may rub off on them.

2. They are worried that gay men might try to have sex with them.

3. Religious tradition tells them it is wrong.

4. They do not have a similar attraction to men, so it seems deviant to them.

I used to embrace all of these bigotries myself until I found out that one of my close friends was gay. He is the kindest, most considerate person you could ever meet. I've never even heard him cuss or get angry about anything. For a while I stayed away from him... until I realized that it didn't change why I liked him as a friend. His gayness does not threaten my manhood. I am still attracted to women, still married to my wife of 20 years, and have never had any attraction to men. This guy does not flaunt his gayness as a rare minority do. I only found out about it by accident. When I asked him about it, he didn't want to discuss it. He said that what he did in his bedroom was no one else's business. He knows I am married and have no interest in being gay.

Once you get to know someone who is gay, you will find out that they are not as evil as you may think. The problem is that the majority of humans don't even know any gay people.

That is not bigotry. People are entitled to their opinions. Because they don't agree with you doesn't mean they are bigoted, racist, sexist, etc.

[StevePerryHair]

I think most men are paranoid of gays for several reasons:

1. They are worried that their gayness may rub off on them.

2. They are worried that gay men might try to have sex with them.

3. Religious tradition tells them it is wrong.

4. They do not have a similar attraction to men, so it seems deviant to them.

I used to embrace all of these bigotries myself until I found out that one of my close friends was gay. He is the kindest, most considerate person you could ever meet. I've never even heard him cuss or get angry about anything. For a while I stayed away from him... until I realized that it didn't change why I liked him as a friend. His gayness does not threaten my manhood. I am still attracted to women, still married to my wife of 20 years, and have never had any attraction to men. This guy does not flaunt his gayness as a rare minority do. I only found out about it by accident. When I asked him about it, he didn't want to discuss it. He said that what he did in his bedroom was no one else's business. He knows I am married and have no interest in being gay.

Once you get to know someone who is gay, you will find out that they are not as evil as you may think. The problem is that the majority of humans don't even know any gay people.

That is not bigotry. People are entitled to their opinions. Because they don't agree with you doesn't mean they are bigoted, racist, sexist, etc.

So all of the nasty things from the past, said about African Americans, all that stuff said and how they were treated was once an "opinion" too. For some it still is. That wasn't racist to you either then? Just opinion and therefore okay?

[Tito]

I think most men are paranoid of gays for several reasons:

1. They are worried that their gayness may rub off on them.

2. They are worried that gay men might try to have sex with them.

3. Religious tradition tells them it is wrong.

4. They do not have a similar attraction to men, so it seems deviant to them.

I used to embrace all of these bigotries myself until I found out that one of my close friends was gay. He is the kindest, most considerate person you could ever meet. I've never even heard him cuss or get angry about anything. For a while I stayed away from him... until I realized that it didn't change why I liked him as a friend. His gayness does not threaten my manhood. I am still attracted to women, still married to my wife of 20 years, and have never had any attraction to men. This guy does not flaunt his gayness as a rare minority do. I only found out about it by accident. When I asked him about it, he didn't want to discuss it. He said that what he did in his bedroom was no one else's business. He knows I am married and have no interest in being gay.

Once you get to know someone who is gay, you will find out that they are not as evil as you may think. The problem is that the majority of humans don't even know any gay people.

It's true, you really just have to get to know a gay person really well, or better yet, find out someone you've known all along as a normal person is in fact gay

Lets be fair here. There are some people who are normal (assuming you think their behavior is normal) who happen to be gay and then there are some who real weirdos and gay.

[StevePerryHair]

I think most men are paranoid of gays for several reasons:

1. They are worried that their gayness may rub off on them.

2. They are worried that gay men might try to have sex with them.

3. Religious tradition tells them it is wrong.

4. They do not have a similar attraction to men, so it seems deviant to them.

I used to embrace all of these bigotries myself until I found out that one of my close friends was gay. He is the kindest, most considerate person you could ever meet. I've never even heard him cuss or get angry about anything. For a while I stayed away from him... until I realized that it didn't change why I liked him as a friend. His gayness does not threaten my manhood. I am still attracted to women, still married to my wife of 20 years, and have never had any attraction to men. This guy does not flaunt his gayness as a rare minority do. I only found out about it by accident. When I asked him about it, he didn't want to discuss it. He said that what he did in his bedroom was no one else's business. He knows I am married and have no interest in being gay.

Once you get to know someone who is gay, you will find out that they are not as evil as you may think. The problem is that the majority of humans don't even know any gay people.

It's true, you really just have to get to know a gay person really well, or better yet, find out someone you've known all along as a normal person is in fact gay

Lets be fair here. There are some people who are normal (assuming you think their behavior is normal) who happen to be gay and then there are some who real weirdos and gay.

Same can be said for straight people

[Rhiannon]

I don't see what the big deal is with allowing common law rights to same-sex couples. Marriage is historically religious based. NOT saying it is NOW, but that is where the whole idea came from. These people just want some of the breaks and benefits other couples get. So let them have the rights. Leave the marriage to it's intended purpose. Commitment is commitment. If you love someone, you don't need a farcical ceremony and paperwork to prove it. But you should be allowed in their ICU room.

[Tito]

I think most men are paranoid of gays for several reasons:

1. They are worried that their gayness may rub off on them.

2. They are worried that gay men might try to have sex with them.

3. Religious tradition tells them it is wrong.

4. They do not have a similar attraction to men, so it seems deviant to them.

I used to embrace all of these bigotries myself until I found out that one of my close friends was gay. He is the kindest, most considerate person you could ever meet. I've never even heard him cuss or get angry about anything. For a while I stayed away from him... until I realized that it didn't change why I liked him as a friend. His gayness does not threaten my manhood. I am still attracted to women, still married to my wife of 20 years, and have never had any attraction to men. This guy does not flaunt his gayness as a rare minority do. I only found out about it by accident. When I asked him about it, he didn't want to discuss it. He said that what he did in his bedroom was no one else's business. He knows I am married and have no interest in being gay.

Once you get to know someone who is gay, you will find out that they are not as evil as you may think. The problem is that the majority of humans don't even know any gay people.

That is not bigotry. People are entitled to their opinions. Because they don't agree with you doesn't mean they are bigoted, racist, sexist, etc.

So all of the nasty things from the past, said about African Americans, all that stuff said and how they were treated was once an "opinion" too. For some it still is. That wasn't racist to you either then? Just opinion and therefore okay?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. You can not outlaw ignorance and opinions you disagree with. I don't believe in the marxist pejorative, racist.

[Ehwmatt]

Lets be fair here. There are some people who are normal (assuming you think their behavior is normal) who happen to be gay and then there are some who real weirdos and gay.

Absolutely - I also know a few like that and to be honest, whether or not its their homosexuality influencing their behavior/words etc., I have no interest in associating with them regardless of their sexuality. Nothing in common.

[Enigma869]

If you really think anything in my post was anywhere near approaching arrogant, then you missed the essence of it entirely. The point is, people have to meet in the middle. People with a certain moral set will never say "Ok, great, you're gay, that's a positive trait." People on the far liberal side certainly try and shove the matter down people's throats. You can't tell someone with a certain set of morals that they have to accept homosexuality as morally neutral or morally equivalent to a heterosexual relationship. That offends them just as much as their beliefs offend you.

Most people aren't going to cringe or even worry about being in the very presence of a gay. This isn't 1982 anymore. We've come a long way in that respect. But, many people will never be morally "okay" with homosexual acts, and however looney you might think that sounds, that is their value set. They are allowed to hold those values just as much as you are allowed to hold whatever values you have, as long as they aren't going around beating gays and perpetrating hate.

The bottom line, gays are here to stay, we've come a long way in getting over the ridiculous HIV stereotypes and homophobia (it will always exist, like racism, but more isolated), and it would benefit everyone to exist peacefully and not draw attention to the extreme views on either side.

And I think you missing the essence of what I wrote! This isn't about your morals or someone else's. With all due respect, nobody gives a rat's ass what your code of morals are. People aren't telling you who you should be sleeping with or how you should live your life, and you shouldn't be doing it to anyone else.

I'm a happily married man with a beautiful wife and a child who I adore more than words could ever convey. From that perspective, I certainly don't understand homosexuality, even a little. I have never really understood how some guy looks at another guy and wants to do sexual things to him. The larger point is that it really doesn't matter whether or not I (or you) understand or accept it. These people are human and should have all the same rights that all heterosexual people have.

Also, I don't disagree that people who believe it to be morally are entitled to their opinion. I simply don't think anyone's opinion should affect the human rights that people (of all persuasions) should be entitled to! I also think your suggestion that people just become wallflowers and not "draw attention" is absurd! Nobody else is fighting for these people, so they have every right to fight for themselves and not just quietly go away! I hope that I live long enough to see a day when extreme right wingers actually don't believe that the entire world should live as they live and everyone else's way is simply wrong. I'm not remotely religious, but if someone were trying to deprive religious people human rights, I would take the same exact position that I take with gay people. Human rights are human rights, regardless of who you're sleeping with or which god you think exists!


John from Boston

[Tito]

I don't see what the big deal is with allowing common law rights to same-sex couples. Marriage is historically religious based. NOT saying it is NOW, but that is where the whole idea came from. These people just want some of the breaks and benefits other couples get. So let them have the rights. Leave the marriage to it's intended purpose. Commitment is commitment. If you love someone, you don't need a farcical ceremony and paperwork to prove it. But you should be allowed in their ICU room.

that's a legit question in it's own right, should the government be in the marriage business to begin with. Should this be left to religious institutes?

[Suzanne]

Gay people do not threaten my sexuality, so I could care less if they get married. I don't have anything against interracial marriages either.

I've heard some very bigoted arguments against gay marriage, such as "Where do we draw the line... should we let people marry animals?" That is ridiculous! We're not talking about animals, we're talking relationships between two human beings.

I don't see any valid argument against it. I am a heterosexual, and I was allowed to marry my wife. Why should I try to stop someone else from marrying their loved one? I just don't see where it is any of my business or anyone else's.

Most of the opposition comes from the religious right who feel the obligation to tell other people how they should live their lives. To me that is crossing the line between church and state.

I think we have much bigger issues than this for our government to be focusing on... like the 1.2 million jobs that have evaporated in the USA this year.

What Voyager said.

Yeah!

[Ehwmatt]

And I think you missing the essence of what I wrote! This isn't about your morals or someone else's. With all due respect, nobody gives a rat's ass what your code of morals are. People aren't telling you who you should be sleeping with or how you should live your life, and you shouldn't be doing it to anyone else.

I'm a happily married man with a beautiful wife and a child who I adore more than words could ever convey. From that perspective, I certainly don't understand homosexuality, even a little. I have never really understood how some guy looks at another guy and wants to do sexual things to him. The larger point is that it really doesn't matter whether or not I (or you) understand or accept it. These people are human and should have all the same rights that all heterosexual people have.

Also, I don't disagree that people who believe it to be morally are entitled to their opinion. I simply don't think anyone's opinion should affect the human rights that people (of all persuasions) should be entitled to! I also think your suggestion that people just become wallflowers and not "draw attention" is absurd! Nobody else is fighting for these people, so they have every right to fight for themselves and not just quietly go away! I hope that I live long enough to see a day when extreme right wingers actually don't believe that the entire world should live as they live and everyone else's way is simply wrong. I'm not remotely religious, but if someone were trying to deprive religious people human rights, I would take the same exact position that I take with gay people. Human rights are human rights, regardless of who you're sleeping with or which god you think exists!


John from Boston

When did I say they couldn't have rights? I just firmly believe that the cause loses a lot of steam when the lunatic fringe on that side expects to be to say, roll a gay pride parade through a conservative mom-and-pop town and not expect a backlash/protests. There's fighting for a cause, and then there's grandstanding. Big difference.

Oh, and while we're at it, marriage doesn't seem to come up in any human rights lists I can think of. Just throwing that out there. I think you're taking the notion of universal rights a bit far going down this path...

[Voyager]

As many white Americans, I was raised in a racist, anti-gay environment. The N word was used frequently among my family and friends, as was the term "faggot". While I realize there are some bad gay people and some bad black people, the ratio of good and bad is not much different than among the white heterosexual population. I think our nation is trying to outgrow its bigotries... but we have a long way to go. The way I see it, people can no more change their gayness than they can change the color of their skin. I don't think they should be condemned for either one.

[Enigma869]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. You can not outlaw ignorance and opinions you disagree with. I don't believe in the marxist pejorative, racist.

I didn't believe it was possible, but you actually become more brain dead with each post! Only you could actually believe that racism is just a myth. You probably actually believe that the signs that read "White Waiting Room" and "Black Waiting Room" were made up. Unreal! I can only hope that you're not college educated, because if you are, that is frightening!


John from Boston

[Rhiannon]

I don't see what the big deal is with allowing common law rights to same-sex couples. Marriage is historically religious based. NOT saying it is NOW, but that is where the whole idea came from. These people just want some of the breaks and benefits other couples get. So let them have the rights. Leave the marriage to it's intended purpose. Commitment is commitment. If you love someone, you don't need a farcical ceremony and paperwork to prove it. But you should be allowed in their ICU room.

that's a legit question in it's own right, should the government be in the marriage business to begin with. Should this be left to religious institutes?

Since marriage is more commonly a legal procedure than a religious testimony these days, I don't think that's possible. It's a cart/horse thing. Take government out of marriage, then marriage loses the legal protections and benefits. But at the same time, you still have other people deciding laws on a religious based act, which is on some levels a contradiction of separation of church and state.

[Enigma869]

Oh, and while we're at it, marriage doesn't seem to come up in any human rights lists I can think of. Just throwing that out there. I think you're taking the notion of universal rights a bit far going down this path...

"Marriage" has NEVER been the issue for me. Religious zealots get hung up on the dopey word. I don't! It's semantics. The issue has never been what it's called. It's simply extending ALL people the same rights, regardless of their sexual orientation!


John from Boston

[annpea]

I think most men are paranoid of gays for several reasons:

1. They are worried that their gayness may rub off on them.

2. They are worried that gay men might try to have sex with them.

I think, it's more the other way,I think some straight men have secert desires for gay men and become angry with themselves for feeling that way so naturally they project that anger toward the object of their desire instead of having the balls to just go ahead and act on the desire. Or maybe the straight man fear that if he does hit it ; he may not be able to quit it. JMO.

3. Religious tradition tells them it is wrong.

True.

4. They do not have a similar attraction to men, so it seems deviant to them.

I think so too.

I used to embrace all of these bigotries myself until I found out that one of my close friends was gay. He is the kindest, most considerate person you could ever meet. I've never even heard him cuss or get angry about anything. For a while I stayed away from him... until I realized that it didn't change why I liked him as a friend. His gayness does not threaten my manhood. I am still attracted to women, still married to my wife of 20 years, and have never had any attraction to men. This guy does not flaunt his gayness as a rare minority do. I only found out about it by accident. When I asked him about it, he didn't want to discuss it. He said that what he did in his bedroom was no one else's business. He knows I am married and have no interest in being gay.

Your friend is very lucky to have a friend like you.

Once you get to know someone who is gay, you will find out that they are not as evil as you may think. The problem is that the majority of humans don't even know any gay people.

[Tito]

And I think you missing the essence of what I wrote! This isn't about your morals or someone else's. With all due respect, nobody gives a rat's ass what your code of morals are. People aren't telling you who you should be sleeping with or how you should live your life, and you shouldn't be doing it to anyone else.

I'm a happily married man with a beautiful wife and a child who I adore more than words could ever convey. From that perspective, I certainly don't understand homosexuality, even a little. I have never really understood how some guy looks at another guy and wants to do sexual things to him. The larger point is that it really doesn't matter whether or not I (or you) understand or accept it. These people are human and should have all the same rights that all heterosexual people have.

John from Boston

They do have the same rights. No one isn't telling them they can't buttfuck and suck dick. They can leave their money to whomever they want or give power of attorney to whomever they want. So that argument is off the table. They chose that lifestyle. That was their choice and right. However, the choice doesn't come with marriage. If they want to get married, date the opposite sex.

That's the other thing I'm getting tired of too. They are NOT minorities.

Also, I don't disagree that people who believe it to be morally are entitled to their opinion. I simply don't think anyone's opinion should affect the human rights that people (of all persuasions) should be entitled to! I also think your suggestion that people just become wallflowers and not "draw attention" is absurd! Nobody else is fighting for these people, so they have every right to fight for themselves and not just quietly go away! I hope that I live long enough to see a day when extreme right wingers actually don't believe that the entire world should live as they live and everyone else's way is simply wrong. I'm not remotely religious, but if someone were trying to deprive religious people human rights, I would take the same exact position that I take with gay people. Human rights are human rights, regardless of who you're sleeping with or which god you think exists!


John from Boston

Again, you're off base. It isn't rightwingers that are forcing the way of the world on people. It's the opposite, it's the left wingers who want to conform everybody. If you disagree with them, you are a racist, bigot, homophobe, etc. In this thread and in the general dialogue in the media, it is the left that is calling opposition to this Hate speech. Not a difference of opinion but hate speech. If some of the stuff that has gone on from the left in California was done by the other side, it would've been a hate crime.

[Tito]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. You can not outlaw ignorance and opinions you disagree with. I don't believe in the marxist pejorative, racist.

I didn't believe it was possible, but you actually become more brain dead with each post! Only you could actually believe that racism is just a myth. You probably actually believe that the signs that read "White Waiting Room" and "Black Waiting Room" were made up. Unreal! I can only hope that you're not college educated, because if you are, that is frightening!


John from Boston

I didn't say there wasn't discrimination. I said I don't like the term racist.

[Tito]

Oh, and while we're at it, marriage doesn't seem to come up in any human rights lists I can think of. Just throwing that out there. I think you're taking the notion of universal rights a bit far going down this path...

"Marriage" has NEVER been the issue for me. Religious zealots get hung up on the dopey word. I don't! It's semantics. The issue has never been what it's called. It's simply extending ALL people the same rights, regardless of their sexual orientation!


John from Boston

Apparently so are the homosexual activist since they're the ones trying to change the law of what marriage is.

[Ehwmatt]

Oh, and while we're at it, marriage doesn't seem to come up in any human rights lists I can think of. Just throwing that out there. I think you're taking the notion of universal rights a bit far going down this path...

"Marriage" has NEVER been the issue for me. Religious zealots get hung up on the dopey word. I don't! It's semantics. The issue has never been what it's called. It's simply extending ALL people the same rights, regardless of their sexual orientation!


John from Boston

Well, the thread was about the issue of marriage and it does sound to me like you were equating it as a right. There are rights and then there are privileges, and I really think marriage falls in between those two. I can't marry an 8-year-old, even if in my warped mind I am in love with her, society hasn't deemed it fit. Am I being denied a right? In CA, society deemed gay marriage unfit. That's the breaks. It is nowhere near equivalent to having separate drinking fountains, pissers, and diners. Society's decree doesn't rule ultimately when it goes your way, like in the court rulings you cited. By the same lines, it doesn't reek of discrimination when it goes against your beliefs.

I've already said, let gays marry, I have no problem with it. If they love each other the way a heterosexual couple does and live together and what not, then sure, give them the financial breaks and the other "perks" that go with it. That doesn't hurt me at all.

[DrFU]

I don't believe in the marxist pejorative, racist.

um, yeah ... whole sections of libraries are devoted to critiquing Marx for his neglect of race and gender in his theorizing ...

[Enigma869]

I can't marry an 8-year-old, even if in my warped mind I am in love with her, society hasn't deemed it fit. Am I being denied a right?

Stupid analogy, considering that marrying an 8 year old is child abuse, and therefore is illegal!

In CA, society deemed gay marriage unfit. That's the breaks. It is nowhere near equivalent to having separate drinking fountains, pissers, and diners.

That's your opinion, that it's "nowhere equivalent to having separate drinking fountains". It's different rules for different people so in that respect it is no different at all!

I've already said, let gays marry, I have no problem with it. If they love each other the way a heterosexual couple does and live together and what not, then sure, give them the financial breaks and the other "perks" that go with it. That doesn't hurt me at all.

Well, I must have missed this, because you seem to be arguing against it in this entire thread and this very post!


John from Boston

[brywool]

I love what's going on up here-
The churches are being picketed to pay taxes. Basically, if they can get all of their supporters out there to vote against gay marriage (or anything else actually), that means they have a political voice. If they have a political voice, they should DAMNED WELL PAY TAXES.


RIGHT ON!

That's the next law I want to see someone draft:

"Churches who attempt to influence the political process should have to pay taxes IMMEDIATELY- otherwise, shut the hell up".

[SteveForever]

Everyone just wants to feel "normal"....

[Enigma869]

They do have the same rights. No one isn't telling them they can't buttfuck and suck dick. They can leave their money to whomever they want or give power of attorney to whomever they want. So that argument is off the table. They chose that lifestyle. That was their choice and right. However, the choice doesn't come with marriage. If they want to get married, date the opposite sex.

There are no words to covey just how fucking ignorant you are! I am only happy to not know someone like you, personally. Your parents must be so proud of you and what you represent! You are ignorant, racist, and a whole lot of other things that I won't say here, out of respect for Andrew!


John from Boston

[Ehwmatt]

I can't marry an 8-year-old, even if in my warped mind I am in love with her, society hasn't deemed it fit. Am I being denied a right?

Stupid analogy, considering that marrying an 8 year old is child abuse, and therefore is illegal!

In CA, society deemed gay marriage unfit. That's the breaks. It is nowhere near equivalent to having separate drinking fountains, pissers, and diners.

That's your opinion, that it's "nowhere equivalent to having separate drinking fountains". It's different rules for different people so in that respect it is no different at all!

I've already said, let gays marry, I have no problem with it. If they love each other the way a heterosexual couple does and live together and what not, then sure, give them the financial breaks and the other "perks" that go with it. That doesn't hurt me at all.

Well, I must have missed this, because you seem to be arguing against it in this entire thread and this very post!


John from Boston

Let me paste you one of my earlier posts:

I have no problem with gay people at all, I would never go out of my way to legislate against them, but I would never go out of my way to condone homosexuality at all. Even in this age of diversity, integration, and tolerance for pretty much everything, people still ultimately have a right to choose who they want to associate with. There are still all white country clubs. There are still all black colleges. Gay bars. Straight bars. Swinger bars. Historically black corporations. Jewish societies. Etc.

I think many people on the more liberal side of the issue lose people that might meet them in the middle when they urge 100% acceptance of homosexuality in itself. Many, many people will never see homosexuality/homosexual relationships on the same level as heterosexual ones. I really think it'd be best if people on the very conservative side of the issue would say "Ok, you are a human being with free will and are free to live your life as you/your genetics see fit, just don't ask me to encourage it or like it," and if people on the very liberal side stopped well short of trying to force an equivalence/acceptance of homosexuality down the formers' throats.

When you replied to it, you took only half of the first sentence out of context. If it really sounds like I'm arguing against gay marriage based on what I wrote there, you need to parse what you're reading better before pounding your exclamation key all day to reply to the selective quotes you lift from me. If anything, I am arguing for a hands-off approach to the whole thing. It's like abortion, it shouldn't even be an issue. I'll be the first to call my party to task when they make things like this an issue instead of things that really matter.

For the Christian right, it's better to live your life the best way you see fit and not force your hand on others by violent/oppressive means. That's how I best understand Christian ethics from my unfortunate tenure in Catholic schools. The Christian right ought to realize this sooner rather than later.

Believe it or not, John, not every Republican is a card-carrying member of the bible-thumping religious right.