Journey and their "click track"

[strangegrey]

I'm wondering if any bands have toyed with the idea of having a roadie/tech trigger stuff like backing vocals in real-time to do away with clicks? I can't possibly imagine how tough it is to stick to a click live with all the adrenaline/nerves etc.

Whether or not that's at all possible, the problem still remains that the singing itself has to remain in time with the music played, or else it will sound exactly like what the band will be desperately trying to avoid....a pre-recorded track and not the band's excellent live singing voices...lol.

So really, the only way to do it with certainty is to bring in the click.


Frankly, I'm less offended at the click than I am with the fact that it seems it's become necessary to drive pre-recorded singing/keys or worse, a fucking lighting show.

[conversationpc]

I'm wondering if any bands have toyed with the idea of having a roadie/tech trigger stuff like backing vocals in real-time to do away with clicks? I can't possibly imagine how tough it is to stick to a click live with all the adrenaline/nerves etc.

Whether or not that's at all possible, the problem still remains that the singing itself has to remain in time with the music played, or else it will sound exactly like what the band will be desperately trying to avoid....a pre-recorded track and not the band's excellent live singing voices...lol.

So really, the only way to do it with certainty is to bring in the click.


Frankly, I'm less offended at the click than I am with the fact that it seems it's become necessary to drive pre-recorded singing/keys or worse, a fucking lighting show.

I can do without the lighting show. Back in my teens, the lighting show may have been cool but nowadays, I only go to see real guys play real music. The click track is OK with me. Excessive back tracks and/or even lead tracks on tape pisses me off.

[Ehwmatt]

I'm wondering if any bands have toyed with the idea of having a roadie/tech trigger stuff like backing vocals in real-time to do away with clicks? I can't possibly imagine how tough it is to stick to a click live with all the adrenaline/nerves etc.

Whether or not that's at all possible, the problem still remains that the singing itself has to remain in time with the music played, or else it will sound exactly like what the band will be desperately trying to avoid....a pre-recorded track and not the band's excellent live singing voices...lol.

So really, the only way to do it with certainty is to bring in the click.


Frankly, I'm less offended at the click than I am with the fact that it seems it's become necessary to drive pre-recorded singing/keys or worse, a fucking lighting show.

I can do without the lighting show. Back in my teens, the lighting show may have been cool but nowadays, I only go to see real guys play real music. The click track is OK with me. Excessive back tracks and/or even lead tracks on tape pisses me off.

It really depends on the show... I'd be really disappointed if I saw someone like David Gilmour, Roger Waters, or Dream Theater without some kind of light/video production. On the other hand, someone like Journey? I say just improvise some lights during Neal's solo spot or whatever, no real need to have some elaborate production.

[strangegrey]

It really depends on the show... I'd be really disappointed if I saw someone like David Gilmour, Roger Waters, or Dream Theater without some kind of light/video production. On the other hand, someone like Journey? I say just improvise some lights during Neal's solo spot or whatever, no real need to have some elaborate production.

As history will show, elaborate light shows are all in all possible without digital triggers for the lighting rig. It requires the good old fashioned human being behind the lighting console swinging the faders, like in the old days.

I dunno...I'm sure it costs money to hire 4-5 guys to handle lighting, pyro, lasers, etc....when instead you can trigger the whole friggin thing with a digital time keeper. Sadly, it removes the organic experience for me.

[bluejeangirl76]

I dunno...I'm sure it costs money to hire 4-5 guys to handle lighting, pyro, lasers, etc....when instead you can trigger the whole friggin thing with a digital time keeper. Sadly, it removes the organic experience for me.

What happened to the days of the real rock show... dudes, insruments, voices, and a lightbulb just so you could see 'em. Like Journey back then, when all they needed was one main light to bounce of The Beak and light the whole place (that is NOT a shot! I respect that Beak!).

[strangegrey]

One of the first gigs my band did in high school....


I went to the hardware store....bought a handful of lights, Got transparent colored film from the art store....put the lights in coffee cans and covered the openings with the film. Had a guy flicking switches to turn them on and off.

Got a few M-80s and put em in Coffee Cans duct taped to the stage. Had a guy on the side of the stage with a cigarette lighter to set them off...


instant lights and pryo. No need for a fucking click track!

[WalrusOct9]

I'll also submit that the canned background vox (and I'm presuming that Twinkle-Toes has pre-recorded keyboard parts as well) drive the use of a click more than the lights, unless as I've already stated, they're invested into lighting gear that requires it....

Phish had one of the best light shows I've ever seen, and obviously they didn't use any clicks or pre-recorded anything....they just had a very talented light guy who could literally improvise a light show to go with what the band was creating onstage. Obviously Journey doesn't improvise, but you don't need a click to run a light show. Bands like Yes and Genesis had tremendous light shows even back in the 70's and early 80's before technology became more a part of the actual music.


As for drummers...one of the bands I'm playing in now, the drummer hates NOT using a click. He's a massive U2 fan, and learned to play that way "just because that's what Larry Mullen did." There's no backing tracks or sequences, he's just very adamant about playing the songs at the right tempo, which is great. He's a solid drummer who's been playing for many, many years, and I'm sure he'd be just fine without it, it's just his preference, and it's great, because that way no one gets excited onstage and starts a song way too fast.

[Jeremey]

I thought I mentioned that the click track was really for Deen to keep time...As in, he needs to keep time or he tends to speed way up. The light show comment was off the cuff, and of course the backing tracks are there too....But even if they werent the songs would be at a perfect tempo because hes playing along with a metronome, which is a good thing.

[Jeremey]

As for drummers...one of the bands I'm playing in now, the drummer hates NOT using a click. He's a massive U2 fan, and learned to play that way "just because that's what Larry Mullen did." There's no backing tracks or sequences, he's just very adamant about playing the songs at the right tempo, which is great. He's a solid drummer who's been playing for many, many years, and I'm sure he'd be just fine without it, it's just his preference, and it's great, because that way no one gets excited onstage and starts a song way too fast.

Amen. We use a metronome now for every song, and only use BGV on about 8 of them. They keep the music solid.

[strangegrey]

I thought I mentioned that the click track was really for Deen to keep time...As in, he needs to keep time or he tends to speed way up. The light show comment was off the cuff, and of course the backing tracks are there too....But even if they werent the songs would be at a perfect tempo because hes playing along with a metronome, which is a good thing.

which is a common ailment with drummers. If the song isnt started fast, it usually ends up there fast.

Paul Stanley used to frequently bitch about the songs being so much faster live...and if you point to the live animalize video, every song is really paced up...listen to black diamond on that video compared to the studio recordings. Almost completely different songs...

[Jeremey]

Most "good" drummers hate click tracks and I would assume Deen can't stand playing to one. Too bad the guys can't all sing like they used to, they wouldn't need the friking canned vox and click shit. It's all so robotic when the band plays to a click track. Journey scrapes by with it because let's face it, you're really paying attention to 2 people in that band for the most part, lead vocalist and lead guitar. Sure Deen, Jon and Ross rock... but it's really a 2 man show.

I love it when Rush plays a few tunes without the click tracks, they really loosen up and jam. Complete with missed notes, dropped sticks, fucked up bass runs, but it's all so dynanic and live, it's worth it. 2112 is one of the tunes where they just cut loose and have fun with it. Same with YYZ. Geddy's face is priceless when he frucks up those solos.

Texafana....This is where I call you out for all those vibrato comments......Most "good" drummers LOVE click tracks. I love you anyways, you sexless little editorialist,

I think he was dead-on with his comment. Too much of a good thing is just as bad as not enough. He was just trying to give you some honest feedback. JMHO.

It was wrong of me to bust balls like that. I know what he meant.

[WalrusOct9]

Yeah...i think the click makes for a more 'professional' show. I don't always like it...i think it can take a little of the energy out of a gig if you're just 'feeling' the song a little faster but the drummer is a slave to the pre-set tempo, but it's better than risking becoming Kiss and playing songs at double speed.

[brywool]

You're saying Journey's light show is to a click? I find that super hard to believe. With all that crew, there's not an op?

[fightingilliniJRNY]

You're saying Journey's light show is to a click? I find that super hard to believe. With all that crew, there's not an op?

I guarantee that they had an actual person running their light show, at least in 2006 on the Def Leppard tour. I sat right behind the soundboard at one show and watched a guy pressing buttons and moving faders all night long to operate the lights. Def Leppard had a guy doing the same thing. It could be different now, but at least in 2006 it was manually operated.

[escapefan]

Pardon my ignorance what is a click track and canned vox. Some of us are just fans. Love the way the music sounds to us..

[texafana]

Most "good" drummers hate click tracks and I would assume Deen can't stand playing to one. Too bad the guys can't all sing like they used to, they wouldn't need the friking canned vox and click shit. It's all so robotic when the band plays to a click track. Journey scrapes by with it because let's face it, you're really paying attention to 2 people in that band for the most part, lead vocalist and lead guitar. Sure Deen, Jon and Ross rock... but it's really a 2 man show.

I love it when Rush plays a few tunes without the click tracks, they really loosen up and jam. Complete with missed notes, dropped sticks, fucked up bass runs, but it's all so dynanic and live, it's worth it. 2112 is one of the tunes where they just cut loose and have fun with it. Same with YYZ. Geddy's face is priceless when he frucks up those solos.

Texafana....This is where I call you out for all those vibrato comments......Most "good" drummers LOVE click tracks. I love you anyways, you sexless little editorialist,

I think he was dead-on with his comment. Too much of a good thing is just as bad as not enough. He was just trying to give you some honest feedback. JMHO.

It was wrong of me to bust balls like that. I know what he meant.

Hey... balls were not busted. It's all good! Love the good debate..with master (de) baiters. lol..

[texafana]

What's the difference between a band using a click track or a classical orchestra with a conductor helping the musicians keep time with each other?

Well.. the biggest difference is the conductor can actually slow down or speed up the tempo to drive the energy, dynamic, of the musical passage.

Think Jazz people.... if Jazz had a click track... it wouldn't be Jazz.

[stevew2]

Most "good" drummers hate click tracks and I would assume Deen can't stand playing to one. Too bad the guys can't all sing like they used to, they wouldn't need the friking canned vox and click shit. It's all so robotic when the band plays to a click track. Journey scrapes by with it because let's face it, you're really paying attention to 2 people in that band for the most part, lead vocalist and lead guitar. Sure Deen, Jon and Ross rock... but it's really a 2 man show.

I love it when Rush plays a few tunes without the click tracks, they really loosen up and jam. Complete with missed notes, dropped sticks, fucked up bass runs, but it's all so dynanic and live, it's worth it. 2112 is one of the tunes where they just cut loose and have fun with it. Same with YYZ. Geddy's face is priceless when he frucks up those solos.

Texafana....This is where I call you out for all those vibrato comments......Most "good" drummers LOVE click tracks. I love you anyways, you sexless little editorialist,

there has been alot of talk about balls here WTF is that all about


I think he was dead-on with his comment. Too much of a good thing is just as bad as not enough. He was just trying to give you some honest feedback. JMHO.

It was wrong of me to bust balls like that. I know what he meant.

Hey... balls were not busted. It's all good! Love the good debate..with master (de) baiters. lol..

there has been alot of talk about balls here recently wtf is that all about

[G.I.Jim]

Most "good" drummers hate click tracks and I would assume Deen can't stand playing to one. Too bad the guys can't all sing like they used to, they wouldn't need the friking canned vox and click shit. It's all so robotic when the band plays to a click track. Journey scrapes by with it because let's face it, you're really paying attention to 2 people in that band for the most part, lead vocalist and lead guitar. Sure Deen, Jon and Ross rock... but it's really a 2 man show.

I love it when Rush plays a few tunes without the click tracks, they really loosen up and jam. Complete with missed notes, dropped sticks, fucked up bass runs, but it's all so dynanic and live, it's worth it. 2112 is one of the tunes where they just cut loose and have fun with it. Same with YYZ. Geddy's face is priceless when he frucks up those solos.

Texafana....This is where I call you out for all those vibrato comments......Most "good" drummers LOVE click tracks. I love you anyways, you sexless little editorialist,

there has been alot of talk about balls here WTF is that all about


I think he was dead-on with his comment. Too much of a good thing is just as bad as not enough. He was just trying to give you some honest feedback. JMHO.

It was wrong of me to bust balls like that. I know what he meant.

Hey... balls were not busted. It's all good! Love the good debate..with master (de) baiters. lol..

there has been alot of talk about balls here recently wtf is that all about

Has your GAYDAR been picking up any strange signals?

[strangegrey]

Pardon my ignorance what is a click track and canned vox. Some of us are just fans. Love the way the music sounds to us..

A click track...is a metronome track piped into the drummer's in ear monitor or headphones. It allows the drummer to stay in time, not speed up or slow down by an audible click sound that 'clicks' in the correct time throughout the duration of the song.

This can either be strictly a metronome sound...or the click can be one of many tracks of prerecorded music that is played along with the band. Lets say, for simplistic example sake...that there's a 4 track player that's played along with the band.

1 track is a click track that only goes to the band or the drummer. No one out in the audience hears it.
the other 3 tracks can be background vocals that are pre-recorded (canned vox), prerecorded keyboard parts, or {shudder} lead vocal parts...those other tracks are sent to the PA mixing board and can be mixed in with the rest of the band's instruments to be heard by the audience.

In order for the pre-recorded background vocals or keyboard parts to come out of the PA speakers at the right time, the band has to be in-sync with the pre-recorded music. A way to do that is to provide the drummer with a click track, so that the band starts it's music *exactly* at the correct time. In addition, the band needs to stay in perfect time throughout the entire performance of the song, or else the pre-recorded music will "sing" or "play" at the wrong time.

Hope that helps....

[stevew2]

Most "good" drummers hate click tracks and I would assume Deen can't stand playing to one. Too bad the guys can't all sing like they used to, they wouldn't need the friking canned vox and click shit. It's all so robotic when the band plays to a click track. Journey scrapes by with it because let's face it, you're really paying attention to 2 people in that band for the most part, lead vocalist and lead guitar. Sure Deen, Jon and Ross rock... but it's really a 2 man show.

I love it when Rush plays a few tunes without the click tracks, they really loosen up and jam. Complete with missed notes, dropped sticks, fucked up bass runs, but it's all so dynanic and live, it's worth it. 2112 is one of the tunes where they just cut loose and have fun with it. Same with YYZ. Geddy's face is priceless when he frucks up those solos.

Texafana....This is where I call you out for all those vibrato comments......Most "good" drummers LOVE click tracks. I love you anyways, you sexless little editorialist,

there has been alot of talk about balls here WTF is that all about


I think he was dead-on with his comment. Too much of a good thing is just as bad as not enough. He was just trying to give you some honest feedback. JMHO.

It was wrong of me to bust balls like that. I know what he meant.

Hey... balls were not busted. It's all good! Love the good debate..with master (de) baiters. lol..

there has been alot of talk about balls here recently wtf is that all about

Has your GAYDAR been picking up any strange signals?

A few. As far as drummers go. I ve played with{musically} quite a few,and find it fucking retarded that they cant keep time. That is there fucking job. Its not like they have to worry about melodies, chords ect. Boom boom on the fucking drum in time. Duh? If some drummers used a metronome when they first learned to play they would problablly not need one later on.I had timing problems when i first took piano lessons.The teacher made me count out loud for a year.That solved the problem.A drummer that cant keep time is like a singer that cant stay on key

[escapefan]

Pardon my ignorance what is a click track and canned vox. Some of us are just fans. Love the way the music sounds to us..

A click track...is a metronome track piped into the drummer's in ear monitor or headphones. It allows the drummer to stay in time, not speed up or slow down by an audible click sound that 'clicks' in the correct time throughout the duration of the song.

This can either be strictly a metronome sound...or the click can be one of many tracks of prerecorded music that is played along with the band. Lets say, for simplistic example sake...that there's a 4 track player that's played along with the band.

1 track is a click track that only goes to the band or the drummer. No one out in the audience hears it.
the other 3 tracks can be background vocals that are pre-recorded (canned vox), prerecorded keyboard parts, or {shudder} lead vocal parts...those other tracks are sent to the PA mixing board and can be mixed in with the rest of the band's instruments to be heard by the audience.

In order for the pre-recorded background vocals or keyboard parts to come out of the PA speakers at the right time, the band has to be in-sync with the pre-recorded music. A way to do that is to provide the drummer with a click track, so that the band starts it's music *exactly* at the correct time. In addition, the band needs to stay in perfect time throughout the entire performance of the song, or else the pre-recorded music will "sing" or "play" at the wrong time.

Hope that helps....

Thanks it does...

[larryfromnextdoor]

I thought I mentioned that the click track was really for Deen to keep time...As in, he needs to keep time or he tends to speed way up. The light show comment was off the cuff, and of course the backing tracks are there too....But even if they werent the songs would be at a perfect tempo because hes playing along with a metronome, which is a good thing.

which is a common ailment with drummers. If the song isnt started fast, it usually ends up there fast.

Paul Stanley used to frequently bitch about the songs being so much faster live...and if you point to the live animalize video, every song is really paced up...listen to black diamond on that video compared to the studio recordings. Almost completely different songs...

good analogy!!.. however.. i love that sped up sound.. its on Captured as well.. Wheel was recorded way too slow in the studio..

the metronome and click makes everything sound the same... hate it ..

[JrnyScarab]

A drummer that cant keep time is like a singer that cant stay on key

That's very true. But I think the problem a lot of good drummers have is they can keep time when practicing but when you are playing in front of 20,000 fans, the adrenaline is what causes you to speed up. They know how to keep time in their head but have trouble controlling the adrenaline. Peart from RUSH says this is one of the hardest things to do.

A very good timekeeper would be Phil Rudd of AC/DC. Don't know if he plays to a click track but when I saw him during the Back in Black tour he was tremendous at keeping time. I don't think many were using them back then.

[Abitaman]

AC/DC has been ripping through their songs at impossible speeds. Sounds like a record on fast speed. In concert, there, you don;t realize it. But listen to the boot later, is like the chipmunks played!
But Phil is a good drummer.

[stevew2]

A drummer that cant keep time is like a singer that cant stay on key

That's very true. But I think the problem a lot of good drummers have is they can keep time when practicing but when you are playing in front of 20,000 fans, the adrenaline is what causes you to speed up. They know how to keep time in their head but have trouble controlling the adrenaline. Peart from RUSH says this is one of the hardest things to do.

A very good timekeeper would be Phil Rudd of AC/DC. Don't know if he plays to a click track but when I saw him during the Back in Black tour he was tremendous at keeping time. I don't think many were using them back then.

That snorting coke will make you faster to

[escapefan]

So the canned vox was used during the escape tour?

[JrnyScarab]

A drummer that cant keep time is like a singer that cant stay on key

That's very true. But I think the problem a lot of good drummers have is they can keep time when practicing but when you are playing in front of 20,000 fans, the adrenaline is what causes you to speed up. They know how to keep time in their head but have trouble controlling the adrenaline. Peart from RUSH says this is one of the hardest things to do.

A very good timekeeper would be Phil Rudd of AC/DC. Don't know if he plays to a click track but when I saw him during the Back in Black tour he was tremendous at keeping time. I don't think many were using them back then.

That snorting coke will make you faster to

LOL!! Reminds me of a WHO story I heard. Keith Moon took some downers one night and Pete Townsend kept yelling over to him "Play faster you fuck, play faster". When it appeared that Keith was about ready to pass out, the bands "Doctor" injected something into Keith's legs which perked him up a bit. Pete was then heard to be saying "Slow down you fuck, slow down"

[Deb]

Pardon my ignorance what is a click track and canned vox. Some of us are just fans. Love the way the music sounds to us..

A click track...is a metronome track piped into the drummer's in ear monitor or headphones. It allows the drummer to stay in time, not speed up or slow down by an audible click sound that 'clicks' in the correct time throughout the duration of the song.

This can either be strictly a metronome sound...or the click can be one of many tracks of prerecorded music that is played along with the band. Lets say, for simplistic example sake...that there's a 4 track player that's played along with the band.

1 track is a click track that only goes to the band or the drummer. No one out in the audience hears it.
the other 3 tracks can be background vocals that are pre-recorded (canned vox), prerecorded keyboard parts, or {shudder} lead vocal parts...those other tracks are sent to the PA mixing board and can be mixed in with the rest of the band's instruments to be heard by the audience.

In order for the pre-recorded background vocals or keyboard parts to come out of the PA speakers at the right time, the band has to be in-sync with the pre-recorded music. A way to do that is to provide the drummer with a click track, so that the band starts it's music *exactly* at the correct time. In addition, the band needs to stay in perfect time throughout the entire performance of the song, or else the pre-recorded music will "sing" or "play" at the wrong time.

Hope that helps....

Yes and thanks both of you, I didn't know what a click track was either.

[strangegrey]

So the canned vox was used during the escape tour?

Yes....at the very least, they used them the night they did the Houston concert that went to MTV. They wanted to fill up the background vocals a bit...so they pre-recorded some...and used them in addition to actual singing. The effect was to make them sound a little bigger...but they guys reportedly still sang. They werre just singing with themselves.


As far as click tracks themselves....one thing that people fail to realize is that one of the great things about live music is the subtle speed ups and slow downs that live music brings. Those 'tempo dynamics' is what makes music breathe...when you combine subtle changes in tempo and dynamics...you get feel.

I really resent bands that tend to use pre-recorded material. Whenever my friend try's to get me to see Rush, I will always respond "Why!??? I can just sit in my baserment, turn on some funky colored lights, wave around a laser pen and listen to the record." Frankly, you're hearing half the record anyway when you go see them live....

It seems Journey has turned into that as well....


Not cool in my book...