Nirvana Nevermind baby and a crock of shit

[Since 78]

Nirvana didn't kill the 80's rock scene. It died on its own accord around the turn of the decade. Def Leppard and Bon Jovi spawned dozens upon dozens of virtually identical second-rate imitators (Just as Nirvana would in the mid-90's), while Bad English, Heart and Chicago were having a competition to see who could suck the most by singing awful Diane Warren ballads.
It would have been nice if both scenes could have peacefully coexisted, but with or without Seattle, "pop metal" or "hair metal" or whatever you want to call it was rapidly running out of gas by 1991, and definitely earned it's exile for a few years.

Perhaps, but there were plenty of great bands around in 1992 and plenty of great albums. Media turned their back on one and all in a heartbeat and in turn, many of these magazines fucked themselves up and disappeared.

Plenty of name artists and newcomers would have gone on with substaining careers, but Nirvana and Co. robbed many of a decade of work.

And look about today....how many of these shitty grunge bands still exist and how many classic rock bands are out there packing out shows.

PEARL JAM!!

PEARL NECKLACE!!!

Hater!

[Jana]

Nirvana didn't kill the 80's rock scene. It died on its own accord around the turn of the decade. Def Leppard and Bon Jovi spawned dozens upon dozens of virtually identical second-rate imitators (Just as Nirvana would in the mid-90's), while Bad English, Heart and Chicago were having a competition to see who could suck the most by singing awful Diane Warren ballads.
It would have been nice if both scenes could have peacefully coexisted, but with or without Seattle, "pop metal" or "hair metal" or whatever you want to call it was rapidly running out of gas by 1991, and definitely earned it's exile for a few years.

Perhaps, but there were plenty of great bands around in 1992 and plenty of great albums. Media turned their back on one and all in a heartbeat and in turn, many of these magazines fucked themselves up and disappeared.

Plenty of name artists and newcomers would have gone on with substaining careers, but Nirvana and Co. robbed many of a decade of work.

And look about today....how many of these shitty grunge bands still exist and how many classic rock bands are out there packing out shows.

PEARL JAM!!

PEARL NECKLACE!!!

Hater!

Pearl Jam rocks.

So does Madonna's Hard Candy album. (Duck and run.)

[ProgRocker53]

I DO hate how Winger gets lumped in with all the other cookie-cutter glam metal bands of that era, though. Winger stands out a little bit more in my eyes and deserves a bit more credit than they get. Awesome band.

[WalrusOct9]

Winger had more musicianship than most of the rest of the hair metal bands combined (except for maybe Mr. Big), but their songwriting was as generic as everyone else, and in the end, that's what counts.

I did like some of the stuff off of Pull, but I listened to their first two records and could barely remember any of the songs after the album was done.

[brywool]

Curt had the right idea, but the gun should have went in his wife's mouth. I'd have bought the album had he done that.

There's a lot of evidence out there that points to Courtney having paid somebody to do it.

[WalrusOct9]

Nirvana didn't kill the 80's rock scene. It died on its own accord around the turn of the decade. Def Leppard and Bon Jovi spawned dozens upon dozens of virtually identical second-rate imitators (Just as Nirvana would in the mid-90's), while Bad English, Heart and Chicago were having a competition to see who could suck the most by singing awful Diane Warren ballads.
It would have been nice if both scenes could have peacefully coexisted, but with or without Seattle, "pop metal" or "hair metal" or whatever you want to call it was rapidly running out of gas by 1991, and definitely earned it's exile for a few years.

Perhaps, but there were plenty of great bands around in 1992 and plenty of great albums. Media turned their back on one and all in a heartbeat and in turn, many of these magazines fucked themselves up and disappeared.

Plenty of name artists and newcomers would have gone on with substaining careers, but Nirvana and Co. robbed many of a decade of work.

And look about today....how many of these shitty grunge bands still exist and how many classic rock bands are out there packing out shows.

There's only a small handful of 80's hard rock bands filling large venues. Of the bands still selling out large venues, only Bon Jovi, and to a lesser extent Poison and Def Leppard are the only ones who were affected by Nirvana and grunge.

Most of the "classic rock" bands that are still selling a lot of tickets were separate from the "hair metal" thing...Journey, Styx, Van Halen, etc, were all well established by the early 80's and thus were largely unaffacted by grunge. (or had split up by the end of the decade)

I know what you're saying, Andrew, but while there were isolated spots of brilliance (Giant and Thunder being the most prominent in my mind) in 1992, it was time for something new in the eyes of a lot of people, I think. Problem is there were more crappy albums than good albums, most likely. The average band has what, 5-8 years of solid music in them? There's plenty of exceptions, but look at the Crue, or Gn'R, or even Journey from '78-'83...they get there, they make it, and then they lose it. Something like Laughing On Judgement Day was a great album on it's own, but wasn't all that different stylistically from what people had been hearing for the past ten years...there just wasn't anything special, new or different enough at that point to rise through the grunge and keep the genre healthy, unfortunately.

I also think a smaller but significant part of it was that a large group of listeners got old around that time and stopped caring about new music. Heart and Chicago and bands like that saw significant sales declines around 1990 and 1991 because their audience stopped wanting to hear new things like a lot of people when they hit middle-age. (sorry, I know a few of you will be offended by that, but it's the truth) Even if Journey had regrouped to put out an album as good as Escape in the early to mid 90's, I'm not sure how well it would've done, simply because radio had given up on playing new music by classic rock bands by that point. Grunge didn't kill that...middle-aged fogies only wanting to hear the hits ad nauseum is what killed it.

[Andrew]

Nirvana didn't kill the 80's rock scene. It died on its own accord around the turn of the decade. Def Leppard and Bon Jovi spawned dozens upon dozens of virtually identical second-rate imitators (Just as Nirvana would in the mid-90's), while Bad English, Heart and Chicago were having a competition to see who could suck the most by singing awful Diane Warren ballads.
It would have been nice if both scenes could have peacefully coexisted, but with or without Seattle, "pop metal" or "hair metal" or whatever you want to call it was rapidly running out of gas by 1991, and definitely earned it's exile for a few years.

Perhaps, but there were plenty of great bands around in 1992 and plenty of great albums. Media turned their back on one and all in a heartbeat and in turn, many of these magazines fucked themselves up and disappeared.

Plenty of name artists and newcomers would have gone on with substaining careers, but Nirvana and Co. robbed many of a decade of work.

And look about today....how many of these shitty grunge bands still exist and how many classic rock bands are out there packing out shows.

There's only a small handful of 80's hard rock bands filling large venues. Of the bands still selling out large venues, only Bon Jovi, and to a lesser extent Poison and Def Leppard are the only ones who were affected by Nirvana and grunge.

Most of the "classic rock" bands that are still selling a lot of tickets were separate from the "hair metal" thing...Journey, Styx, Van Halen, etc, were all well established by the early 80's and thus were largely unaffacted by grunge. (or had split up by the end of the decade)

Most of the old bands are out there on the road having fun....that's the point. Most fo the grunge bands have buggered off (thank God) or have had frontmen that have killed themselves (several!).

Just glad our music is still kicking around while there are few bands these days immitating grunge, there are a stack doing great rock n roll.

[Deb]

Winger had more musicianship than most of the rest of the hair metal bands combined (except for maybe Mr. Big), but their songwriting was as generic as everyone else, and in the end, that's what counts.

I did like some of the stuff off of Pull, but I listened to their first two records and could barely remember any of the songs after the album was done.

Agreed, Winger and Mr. Big......major talent in both bands, but MB had the better singer.

[Jana]

Curt had the right idea, but the gun should have went in his wife's mouth. I'd have bought the album had he done that.

There's a lot of evidence out there that points to Courtney having paid somebody to do it.

Do you really believe that's a possibility? I've heard that over the years.

[Since 78]

Nirvana didn't kill the 80's rock scene. It died on its own accord around the turn of the decade. Def Leppard and Bon Jovi spawned dozens upon dozens of virtually identical second-rate imitators (Just as Nirvana would in the mid-90's), while Bad English, Heart and Chicago were having a competition to see who could suck the most by singing awful Diane Warren ballads.
It would have been nice if both scenes could have peacefully coexisted, but with or without Seattle, "pop metal" or "hair metal" or whatever you want to call it was rapidly running out of gas by 1991, and definitely earned it's exile for a few years.

Perhaps, but there were plenty of great bands around in 1992 and plenty of great albums. Media turned their back on one and all in a heartbeat and in turn, many of these magazines fucked themselves up and disappeared.

Plenty of name artists and newcomers would have gone on with substaining careers, but Nirvana and Co. robbed many of a decade of work.

And look about today....how many of these shitty grunge bands still exist and how many classic rock bands are out there packing out shows.

There's only a small handful of 80's hard rock bands filling large venues. Of the bands still selling out large venues, only Bon Jovi, and to a lesser extent Poison and Def Leppard are the only ones who were affected by Nirvana and grunge.

Most of the "classic rock" bands that are still selling a lot of tickets were separate from the "hair metal" thing...Journey, Styx, Van Halen, etc, were all well established by the early 80's and thus were largely unaffacted by grunge. (or had split up by the end of the decade)

I know what you're saying, Andrew, but while there were isolated spots of brilliance (Giant and Thunder being the most prominent in my mind) in 1992, it was time for something new in the eyes of a lot of people, I think. Problem is there were more crappy albums than good albums, most likely. The average band has what, 5-8 years of solid music in them? There's plenty of exceptions, but look at the Crue, or Gn'R, or even Journey from '78-'83...they get there, they make it, and then they lose it. Something like Laughing On Judgement Day was a great album on it's own, but wasn't all that different stylistically from what people had been hearing for the past ten years...there just wasn't anything special, new or different enough at that point to rise through the grunge and keep the genre healthy, unfortunately.

I also think a smaller but significant part of it was that a large group of listeners got old around that time and stopped caring about new music. Heart and Chicago and bands like that saw significant sales declines around 1990 and 1991 because their audience stopped wanting to hear new things like a lot of people when they hit middle-age. (sorry, I know a few of you will be offended by that, but it's the truth) Even if Journey had regrouped to put out an album as good as Escape in the early to mid 90's, I'm not sure how well it would've done, simply because radio had given up on playing new music by classic rock bands by that point. Grunge didn't kill that...middle-aged fogies only wanting to hear the hits ad nauseum is what killed it.

Exactly!

[Don]

Curt had the right idea, but the gun should have went in his wife's mouth. I'd have bought the album had he done that.

There's a lot of evidence out there that points to Courtney having paid somebody to do it.

Do you really believe that's a possibility? I've heard that over the years.

I've got some property in Baguio for sale if you're interested, Jana.

[Jana]

Curt had the right idea, but the gun should have went in his wife's mouth. I'd have bought the album had he done that.

There's a lot of evidence out there that points to Courtney having paid somebody to do it.

Do you really believe that's a possibility? I've heard that over the years.

I've got some property in Baguio for sale if you're interested, Jana.

Hey, thanks

[Sarah]

I like grunge AND classic rock!

OH SHI-

[WalrusOct9]

Pearl Jam is easily one of my ten favorite bands of all time. They're as good live as any band on the planet, regularly playing 3 hour sets full of improvisations, deep cuts, and...pretty much whatever they feel like. If only more bands did shows like that...

[Since 78]

Hey Andrew!! How about adding a Pearl Jam Forum?

[Sarah]

Hey Andrew!! How about adding a Pearl Jam Forum?

I'd go there. I'll start this thread:
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=225825

[stevew2]

Was Nirvana's singer the coward that blew his brains out with a newborn on the way or some shit like that? I can't keep track, all those bands sounded the same to me.

Yes he was. Although I think he was a fucking retard to commit suicide, I do feel bad for those he left behind. I feel bad for him too, that he was in that bad of a place. What a shame!

I hated this band along with all of the other shit bands that took over the 90's music scene, because they pushed all of our favorite bands into exile! I understand why it happened, but you have to wonder....Where would we be today musically if many of these "80's" bands continued their success into the 90's? That really makes me wonder.

Maybe I'm alone here, but just THINK of the albums we got shorted out of!

Retardation is the only thing I can think of to explain someone canceling out their own existence. If you are suffering physical pain with no relief in sight is one thing but mental anguish is bizarre to me. The brain is so resilient, I can only imagine that a person would have to be short circuited or retarded to perform such an act upon themself.

He should have done it sooner, that way we wouldnt have had to hear his shitty whinning voice,and his depressing music

[SF-Dano]

Hey Andrew!! How about adding a Pearl Jam Forum?

This place is called Melodic Rock not ImSoDownandHateMyPopularity Rock


Granted Pearl Jam in a live setting can be quite entertaining, but aside from a very few tracks it never translated to their albums. JMO.

And IMO, Grunge did not kill Hard rock. It was just the disease that started the deadly infection. Then the record industry and music media killed Hard Rock, by no longer promoting or giving any airplay to the Hard Rock artists and only pushing the new "disposal" bands. I liked to call them the "two out club", release two albums and we won't hear from them again. As Andrew stated, many fine hard rock records were released in the early nineties that went by with no notice because of the change in the industry and by extension the media. If you were interested in those releases, you had to do your own work in finding them either via the web or taking a chance and buying the CD, songs unheard.

I agree that both genres of music should have been able to co-exist at the same time, but unfortunately the media did not allow for this to happen. And yes there were a few exceptions, as there always are in these debates.

These are my opinions and they come from someone who enjoys quality musicianship and especially melodic, lead guitar driven music.

[Deb]

Hey Andrew!! How about adding a Pearl Jam Forum?

This place is called Melodic Rock not ImSoDownandHateMyPopularity Rock


Granted Pearl Jam in a live setting can be quite entertaining, but aside from a very few tracks it never translated to their albums. JMO.

And IMO, Grunge did not kill Hard rock. It was just the disease that started the deadly infection. Then the record industry and music media killed Hard Rock, by no longer promoting or giving any airplay to the Hard Rock artists and only pushing the new "disposal" bands. I liked to call them the "two out club", release two albums and we won't hear from them again. As Andrew stated, many fine hard rock records were released in the early nineties that went by with no notice because of the change in the industry and by extension the media. If you were interested in those releases, you had to do your own work in finding them either via the web or taking a chance and buying the CD, songs unheard.

I agree that both genres of music should have been able to co-exist at the same time, but unfortunately the media did not allow for this to happen. And yes there were a few exceptions, as there always are in these debates.

These are my opinions and they come from someone who enjoys quality musicianship and especially melodic, lead guitar driven music.

Great post, I agree, especially your 3rd paragraph.

[Matthew]

Then the record industry and music media killed Hard Rock, by no longer promoting or giving any airplay to the Hard Rock artists and only pushing the new "disposal" bands. I liked to call them the "two out club", release two albums and we won't hear from them again.

But what brought about the change, SF? And hasn't there been 'disposable' rock and pop bands since the 1950s?

I think the theory about hard rock and AOR fans of the 1970s and early 1980s becoming middle-aged and conservative in the 1990s is a good one. And I'd definitely say that the music industry responds to natural shifts in the musical landscape rather than being creative and initiating these changes.

Also - I reckon melodic rock had largely lost its capacity to surprise in the early 1990s. It seemed like more of the same but not quite as good. That was my memory of those days anyway.

[Andrew]

Then the record industry and music media killed Hard Rock, by no longer promoting or giving any airplay to the Hard Rock artists and only pushing the new "disposal" bands. I liked to call them the "two out club", release two albums and we won't hear from them again.

But what brought about the change, SF? And hasn't there been 'disposable' rock and pop bands since the 1950s?

I think the theory about hard rock and AOR fans of the 1970s and early 1980s becoming middle-aged and conservative in the 1990s is a good one. And I'd definitely say that the music industry responds to natural shifts in the musical landscape rather than being creative and initiating these changes.

Also - I reckon melodic rock had largely lost its capacity to surprise in the early 1990s. It seemed like more of the same but not quite as good. That was my memory of those days anyway.

To a point I agree. It became safe...grunge was 'dangerous' and 'angry', but the way media and MTV bandwagon-jumped within days was astounding.

[Matthew]

Then the record industry and music media killed Hard Rock, by no longer promoting or giving any airplay to the Hard Rock artists and only pushing the new "disposal" bands. I liked to call them the "two out club", release two albums and we won't hear from them again.

But what brought about the change, SF? And hasn't there been 'disposable' rock and pop bands since the 1950s?

I think the theory about hard rock and AOR fans of the 1970s and early 1980s becoming middle-aged and conservative in the 1990s is a good one. And I'd definitely say that the music industry responds to natural shifts in the musical landscape rather than being creative and initiating these changes.

Also - I reckon melodic rock had largely lost its capacity to surprise in the early 1990s. It seemed like more of the same but not quite as good. That was my memory of those days anyway.

To a point I agree. It became safe...grunge was 'dangerous' and 'angry', but the way media and MTV bandwagon-jumped within days was astounding.

I'm no fan of grunge but yes...I remember sitting up when I first heard "Smells Like Teen Spirit". It's true that the media got carried away but equally Metallica - with their most melodic album to date - hit their absolute commercial peak in the early 1990s - so it wasn't all bad news for 'traditional' rock music.

[Vladan]

Grudge sucked period, total novelty, Nirvana were shit and and Cobain couldn't sing to save his own life, literally - he sang so bad he had to shoot himself, a pathetic loser. It's just painful when you hear how bad he actually sang, and people actually bought that rubbish and said it was good, makes me laugh.

[SF-Dano]

Then the record industry and music media killed Hard Rock, by no longer promoting or giving any airplay to the Hard Rock artists and only pushing the new "disposal" bands. I liked to call them the "two out club", release two albums and we won't hear from them again.

But what brought about the change, SF? And hasn't there been 'disposable' rock and pop bands since the 1950s?

I think the theory about hard rock and AOR fans of the 1970s and early 1980s becoming middle-aged and conservative in the 1990s is a good one. And I'd definitely say that the music industry responds to natural shifts in the musical landscape rather than being creative and initiating these changes.

Also - I reckon melodic rock had largely lost its capacity to surprise in the early 1990s. It seemed like more of the same but not quite as good. That was my memory of those days anyway.

While I agree that there were always "disposable" rock and pop bands, I think (80s and earlier) the power of the decision of which bands were "disposable" ultimately lied with the fans and not so much the industry. However, my main point was that there was no reason these genres could not co-exist as so many others had earlier. IMO, the fans should be the ones to decide what they like to hear and what the don't rather than being spoon fed and told this is what is "hot". And as Andrew said it happend very quickly. Regarding Metallica, as I said earlier there are always a few exceptions even to this day.

[Sarah]

Grudge sucked period, total novelty, Nirvana were shit and and Cobain couldn't sing to save his own life, literally - he sang so bad he had to shoot himself, a pathetic loser. It's just painful when you hear how bad he actually sang, and people actually bought that rubbish and said it was good, makes me laugh.

Hahaha I don't really like Nirvana but this is a terribly ignorant-sounding post.

[brandonx76]

Not a huge grunge fan - by any means, but there were a couple of good Soundgarden songs in the mire of mediocraty.

I can't believe everyone is trashing Nirvana so much, with no mention of Dave Grohl - The guy is an incredible talent, and very relevant musical force today (Foo Fighters) Granted he only played drums in Nirvana.

I think the points raised in the this thread are very valid though - Clear Channel / MTV force feeding our music and hair/metal acts all sounding the same.

It's a stretch, but as far as the downfall of Melodicrock over the previous two decades, maybe we can pin some of it on Steve Perry? What would music today be if Journey continued as a cohesive entity after Frontiers.

[WalrusOct9]

Journey was done after Frontiers, creatively. The Carpenters rocked harder than most of Raised On Radio or TBF, and except for "Oh Sherrie" and "You Better Wait," Perry's solo records didn't have much to them either other than an endless stream of lite pop and sappy ballads.

Post-Perry, Journey has put out three uneven but enjoyable LP's. While each has it's faults, there's at least been a solid handful of rockers and at least one good ballad on each of them, which is more than they did the last two attempts with Perry, but they also had a lot of input from outside writers (especially Jack Blades). I doubt Perry would have allowed that much influence from outside the band if he'd been around for Arrival...although Neal and Jon have come up with a few great songs on their own lately ("Never Walk Away, "FITH," etc)...where were those songs in 1996?


You can't pinpoint all that on Perry or anyone specifically...after the early 90's there just wasn't an outlet for that stuff. It was "classic rock," and lots of people still listened to Journey, the Stones, etc, but there was suddenly no outlet for their new material because radio was afraid to play something their listeners might not have heard 5,000 times already.

[Don]

Journey was done after Frontiers, creatively. The Carpenters rocked harder than most of Raised On Radio or TBF, and except for "Oh Sherrie" and "You Better Wait," Perry's solo records didn't have much to them either other than an endless stream of lite pop and sappy ballads.

Post-Perry, Journey has put out three uneven but enjoyable LP's. While each has it's faults, there's at least been a solid handful of rockers and at least one good ballad on each of them, which is more than they did the last two attempts with Perry, but they also had a lot of input from outside writers (especially Jack Blades). I doubt Perry would have allowed that much influence from outside the band if he'd been around for Arrival...although Neal and Jon have come up with a few great songs on their own lately ("Never Walk Away, "FITH," etc)...where were those songs in 1996?


You can't pinpoint all that on Perry or anyone specifically...after the early 90's there just wasn't an outlet for that stuff. It was "classic rock," and lots of people still listened to Journey, the Stones, etc, but there was suddenly no outlet for their new material because radio was afraid to play something their listeners might not have heard 5,000 times already.

+1

[brandonx76]

You can't pinpoint all that on Perry...

Of course you can't...I was only being slightly facetious...Still, on the flip of the hypothetical coin, what if Cobain never got a record contract? Just some thoughts, on what could (or could not) have been, and how influential some artists (a few who are being dinged posthumously) have been on the music we listen to today.

As for Journey and their creative worth, post Frontiers Perry, and post Perry altogether, in the immortal words of Tenacious-D, "You cannot manufacture inspirado". How many non Journey albums did Neal really need to put out between 2002 and present?

BTW, I think Revelation was one of the band's best efforts. I don't think Jack Blades was involved in writing this time around. Perhaps life experience and the pause between having an available singer this time around gave them the necessary time to put together a more cohesive set of tunes.

[X factor]

" It gets to a point, and I believe we're at that point now, where you get this kind of dinosaur music mentality going on where everybody looks the same and everybody sounds the same. It's everything punk rebelled against in the 70's. I think it's time for a revolution...a musical revolution. Somebody's gotta do something original here."

Nikki Sixx- from an MTV interview during the height of the DR FEELGOOD tour (circa 1989)

I'm reading a really interesting book called BANG YOUR HEAD- THE RISE AND FALL OF METAL that those of you who blame the downfall of hard rock on Nirvana and their ilk should REALLY read! Among other things, BEAVIS AND BUTTHEAD are (quite seriously, I might add) blamed for the demise of alot of these bands- WINGER in particular.

Another great passage near the end states" It was only a matter of time before the music had to change. Ultimately, listeners grew tired of how smug, arrogant and phony the "hair bands" came off, and couldn't stomach it anymore." To me, this says it all.

And another thing- to point to the fact that supposedly none of the grunge bands still "exist" (*though Pearl Jam are still going very strong, Alice in Chains still exist in some form, Chris Cornell still records. and second wave act the Foo Fighters are on of the last good rock bands in existence! I'll take those guys in EVERY WAY over crap like Creed and Nickleback...) that doesn't diminish the movement. By 1982, most of the punk bands were gone too, but they had an effect on most all hard rock and metal bands in their wake.