Nirvana Nevermind baby and a crock of shit

[strangegrey]

Honestly part of it might be that you don't notice them because you're not looking for them. They are one of those bands that blend in until you start paying attention. We all know Rolling Stone is a rag, of course, but they blurb about Pearl Jam all the time, and they were on the cover in '06 when they released their last album... around that time they were also on SNL and Letterman... they haven't released an album since then so I don't know what kind of press you expect but they do sell out venues. I don't think it's fair to say that just because you didn't hear about Pearl Jam, it's not true.

Sarah, please forgive my vile, pissy, dirty ass fouled mood today...I really don't mean this to be directed at you...

On with the rant...

I'm not looking for Van Halen EITHER...but I certainly knew they were touring. Let's dispense with the bull. This is a band that last produced something that the general public cared about, over three presidential terms ago....that's over 12 years, for those that are mathematically challenged.

And yes, whether or not they get press from Rolling Stoned lends zero credibility. That useless piece of shit has Brad Pitt on the cover right now. Please explain to me how that shithead bears any relevance to music...and then try to justify Dick Jam's cover as 'proof of relevance.'

I don't buy it. They've been dead since shotgun kurt swallowed birdshot. While I will freely admit that they were among the more talented bands of the seatle scurge....that's like saying there's good fungus to eat, you just have to look harder....


rant off....

[Sarah]

And yes, whether or not they get press from Rolling Stoned lends zero credibility. That useless piece of shit has Brad Pitt on the cover right now. Please explain to me how that shithead bears any relevance to music...and then try to justify Dick Jam's cover as 'proof of relevance.'

That's why I also mentioned their gigs on SNL and Letterman (probably others). Where is Van Halen on Saturday Night Live? Journey?

[strangegrey]

I dunno if SNL offers credibility *either*. Rolling stones, SNL and the R&R hall of fame all seem to be cut from the same thread of clothing. The fact remains that PJ is not a mover and shaker and hasn't been since the mid 90s. The average person walking down the street, when asked what the last PJ album released was...will most likely respond "Ten." When asked when PJ toured last, they will go "I dont know"...ask the same question about VH or Journey, however...and most people will go "Oh, this past year"...

[X factor]

Right on the $ both ways! POISON are "good musicians"? Really? In Bizarro world, maybe

It sounds like reading comprehension might have been tough for you in grade school.

I didn't say Poison were "good musicians"...I said they did a *SERVICABLE* job representing their music.

The original post that I responded to, suggested that in-studio production was the reason why poison album sound the way they do...in much the same way fall out boy sounds the way they do. NOT that they were virtuosos....and to that point, you clearly didn't read twice and think long and hard.

Poison, the handful of times I had a chance to see them perform, reproduced the music with zero so-called "help."

How fucking idiotically hypocritical to make a fucking statement like that on a Journey board....with all of the canned vox, prerecorded keyboard tracks triggered by that twinkle-toed faggot's dell computer sitting on the whale....and lets not forget the whole lip syncing thing....

for fucks sake....

My reading comprehension is dandy, as you said "They all can play....circles around whatever artists are being pimped on us these days." If you are indeed including Pearl Jam in that list(please before you fly off the handle notice I said IF) you're crazier than you sound (highly improbable, I realize...) as Jeff Ament and Mike McCreedy can run circles around CC Deville and Bobby Dall !

I did miss the "serviceable" part. My apologies, dear.

I have no idea what the other part of your rant is about, or how it refers to my post as I was simply reacting to the "Poison- good musician" comparison. And the times I've seen them, I wished they had HAD some pro tools help!

[strangegrey]

My reading comprehension is dandy, as you said "They all can play....circles around whatever artists are being pimped on us these days." If you are indeed including Pearl Jam in that list(please before you fly off the handle notice I said IF) you're crazier than you sound (highly improbable, I realize...) as Jeff Ament and Mike McCreedy can run circles around CC Deville and Bobby Dall !

Again, reading comprehension. If you read, my position is that Pearl Jam is *not* being pimped on us these days....unless you're reading rolling stone. So, please remove them from your equation. I'm talking about today's pop-punk/emo crap that's been infesting the airwaves since green day decided to try to sell records....

As far as who's a better guitarist...let's get real here. You want to try and justify the two dipshits in spooge jam as accomplished guitarists by comparing them to Deville and Dall, go ahead! Hardly a high standard. The point I was making, is that there are not too many pop bands these days that are actually playing the entire track the audience hears. For better or worse, Poison is representing their recordings live. It's not dream theater that they're playing...I'll give you that...but to compare poison to Fall Out Boy or any other shit punk pop band out there, is kinda laughable...that was my original point of contention.

Regardless of any level of comparison, McCreedy and Ament are not good guitarists. If I wanted to hear someone who wants to be SRV, I CERTAINLY wouldn't pop in a Spooge Jam record and try to listen to McCreedy. The guy's not very good...By my standards, there hasn't been a guitarist to weasle out of that entire seatle scene that is worth the poo that pops out of my dogs ass every morning. The vast majority of guitarists in any era prior to the grunge scurge could have whiped their asses with the useless, regurgitated licks that came out of McCreedy, Ament, Copain, Thayell, and all of the other useless wastes of guitar strings that have festered out of Seatle. The worst of the 80s guitarists will trump the grunge-era idiots....and I can rattle off at least 40 guitarists from the 60s and 70s that, in their prime, would have schooled McCreedy, CoPain, Thayall, Ament, and every showerless seattle heroin addict in less than a NY minute.

[Ehwmatt]

My reading comprehension is dandy, as you said "They all can play....circles around whatever artists are being pimped on us these days." If you are indeed including Pearl Jam in that list(please before you fly off the handle notice I said IF) you're crazier than you sound (highly improbable, I realize...) as Jeff Ament and Mike McCreedy can run circles around CC Deville and Bobby Dall !

Again, reading comprehension. If you read, my position is that Pearl Jam is *not* being pimped on us these days....unless you're reading rolling stone. So, please remove them from your equation. I'm talking about today's pop-punk/emo crap that's been infesting the airwaves since green day decided to try to sell records....

As far as who's a better guitarist...let's get real here. You want to try and justify the two dipshits in spooge jam as accomplished guitarists by comparing them to Deville and Dall, go ahead! Hardly a high standard. The point I was making, is that there are not too many pop bands these days that are actually playing the entire track the audience hears. For better or worse, Poison is representing their recordings live. It's not dream theater that they're playing...I'll give you that...but to compare poison to Fall Out Boy or any other shit punk pop band out there, is kinda laughable...that was my original point of contention.

Regardless of any level of comparison, McCreedy and Ament are not good guitarists. If I wanted to hear someone who wants to be SRV, I CERTAINLY wouldn't pop in a Spooge Jam record and try to listen to McCreedy. The guy's not very good...By my standards, there hasn't been a guitarist to weasle out of that entire seatle scene that is worth the poo that pops out of my dogs ass every morning. The vast majority of guitarists in any era prior to the grunge scurge could have whiped their asses with the useless, regurgitated licks that came out of McCreedy, Ament, Copain, Thayell, and all of the other useless wastes of guitar strings that have festered out of Seatle. The worst of the 80s guitarists will trump the grunge-era idiots....and I can rattle off at least 40 guitarists from the 60s and 70s that, in their prime, would have schooled McCreedy, CoPain, Thayall, Ament, and every showerless seattle heroin addict in less than a NY minute.

Jerry Cantrell of Alice in Chains is an excellent guitarist and singer. Great tone, phrasing, and good lead hooks. Not to mention some great riffs.

[X factor]

My reading comprehension is dandy, as you said "They all can play....circles around whatever artists are being pimped on us these days." If you are indeed including Pearl Jam in that list(please before you fly off the handle notice I said IF) you're crazier than you sound (highly improbable, I realize...) as Jeff Ament and Mike McCreedy can run circles around CC Deville and Bobby Dall !

Again, reading comprehension. If you read, my position is that Pearl Jam is *not* being pimped on us these days....unless you're reading rolling stone. So, please remove them from your equation. I'm talking about today's pop-punk/emo crap that's been infesting the airwaves since green day decided to try to sell records....

As far as who's a better guitarist...let's get real here. You want to try and justify the two dipshits in spooge jam as accomplished guitarists by comparing them to Deville and Dall, go ahead! Hardly a high standard. The point I was making, is that there are not too many pop bands these days that are actually playing the entire track the audience hears. For better or worse, Poison is representing their recordings live. It's not dream theater that they're playing...I'll give you that...but to compare poison to Fall Out Boy or any other shit punk pop band out there, is kinda laughable...that was my original point of contention.

Regardless of any level of comparison, McCreedy and Ament are not good guitarists. If I wanted to hear someone who wants to be SRV, I CERTAINLY wouldn't pop in a Spooge Jam record and try to listen to McCreedy. The guy's not very good...By my standards, there hasn't been a guitarist to weasle out of that entire seatle scene that is worth the poo that pops out of my dogs ass every morning. The vast majority of guitarists in any era prior to the grunge scurge could have whiped their asses with the useless, regurgitated licks that came out of McCreedy, Ament, Copain, Thayell, and all of the other useless wastes of guitar strings that have festered out of Seatle. The worst of the 80s guitarists will trump the grunge-era idiots....and I can rattle off at least 40 guitarists from the 60s and 70s that, in their prime, would have schooled McCreedy, CoPain, Thayall, Ament, and every showerless seattle heroin addict in less than a NY minute.

Again, I said IF you're comparing, not THAT you necessarily were. And you're right on as far as Fall out boy is concerned, so I concede your initial point. Perhaps it IS in comparison that I'm thinking of. God, compared to the shit out today, I long for the good ole days of the Stone Temple Pilots!!!! (and I fucking hated them back in the day!)

But I think you're being a little harsh on McCreedy. I've seen PJ live and the guy, while certainly no SRV, I thought was pretty good live. Sloppy as hell, but shit- so was Jimmy Page and Ace Frehley and I loved them!. I never thought much of Thayall ( and hell, Grohl is a better guitarist than Cobain was) but how do you feel about Cantrell? He's pretty good, no?

[WalrusOct9]

Yeah, selling 20,000 tickets a night is definitely a sign no one gives a fuck about your band.

If they were truly doing that, they'd be more successful than a great deal of the acts currently touring...they haven't been a burp, blip or knee jerk on the live music scene for several years. Van Halen's recent tour, which I felt was an embarrassment, was considered one of the most successful tours this past year. THey were selling 20k tickets a night ...and we heard about it. Where was Pearl Jam in all of this?

I suspect you're going to suggest that it's some anti-seattle conspiracy, right?

Something tells me your information about just how 'successful' pearl jam is, is a tad faulty.

How is media attention a sign of success? There's no drama with Pearl Jam. They just go out and do what they do, although they only tour the U.S. every couple of years. They don't need to do what Lep or Journey does and be out every year. But Van Halen was a story...a band who couldn't stand each other but was getting back together after 25 years for a big fat paycheck. That's a story, but it has nothing to do with the quality of the music.

Look at a band like Phish, who for a decade could sell out an arena anywhere in the country without an ounce of media attention, radio, or TV airplay. No one was more successful touring than they were in the 90's, even though you never heard about it unless you were a fan.

[WalrusOct9]

Jerry Cantrell of Alice in Chains is an excellent guitarist and singer. Great tone, phrasing, and good lead hooks. Not to mention some great riffs.

Agreed. Was always a huge AiC fan...amazing vocal harmonies as well in that band.

McCready ain't SRV, but it doesn't matter. Pearl Jam functions as a band. It's not about any of the individual instrumentalists...it's that they connect in a way I've seen few bands do onstage. Poison couldn't even lock in at the same tempo on half the songs....Pearl Jam comes off to me as a hard rock version of the E-Street Band in a way: an amazingly cohesive unit that becomes infinitely more than the sum of it's parts, that can play any song in its catalog on a whim, and play it as if they'd been doing it every night for decades. They have an original catalog of 150+ songs (plus a few dozen covers they play regularly), and you might hear any of them at any show. I don't know how you can rip so hardly on a band like that while championing a genre in which it's biggest bands, by and large, do the same setlist night after night, year after year.

[Sarah]

When asked when PJ toured last, they will go "I dont know"...ask the same question about VH or Journey, however...and most people will go "Oh, this past year"...

I honestly doubt "most people" know Van Halen and Journey just toured. I wouldn't have known Van Halen was touring if not for this forum, probably.

How is media attention a sign of success? There's no drama with Pearl Jam. They just go out and do what they do, although they only tour the U.S. every couple of years.

Yup. Like I said a few posts back, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it's not happening!

[SF-Dano]

The vast majority of guitarists in any era prior to the grunge scurge could have whiped their asses with the useless, regurgitated licks that came out of McCreedy, Ament, Copain, Thayell, and all of the other useless wastes of guitar strings that have festered out of Seatle. The worst of the 80s guitarists will trump the grunge-era idiots....and I can rattle off at least 40 guitarists from the 60s and 70s that, in their prime, would have schooled McCreedy, CoPain, Thayall, Ament, and every showerless seattle heroin addict in less than a NY minute.

I completely agree with the above. Notice he is talking about the "majority" here. Every era has had some dud players that some how seem to make it big. But then again, musicianship is not everone's priority when it comes to music.

[Sarah]

Just want to add... Jeff Ament is a bassist... you guys talking about Stone Gossard?

[WalrusOct9]

The guys in Winger could school just about any band who ever existed, musicianship-wise, but couldn't write a single song I ever need to hear again. There's a lot more to music than whether you can play really, really fast.

[Matthew]

Then the record industry and music media killed Hard Rock, by no longer promoting or giving any airplay to the Hard Rock artists and only pushing the new "disposal" bands. I liked to call them the "two out club", release two albums and we won't hear from them again.

But what brought about the change, SF? And hasn't there been 'disposable' rock and pop bands since the 1950s?

I think the theory about hard rock and AOR fans of the 1970s and early 1980s becoming middle-aged and conservative in the 1990s is a good one. And I'd definitely say that the music industry responds to natural shifts in the musical landscape rather than being creative and initiating these changes.

Also - I reckon melodic rock had largely lost its capacity to surprise in the early 1990s. It seemed like more of the same but not quite as good. That was my memory of those days anyway.

While I agree that there were always "disposable" rock and pop bands, I think (80s and earlier) the power of the decision of which bands were "disposable" ultimately lied with the fans and not so much the industry. However, my main point was that there was no reason these genres could not co-exist as so many others had earlier. IMO, the fans should be the ones to decide what they like to hear and what the don't rather than being spoon fed and told this is what is "hot". And as Andrew said it happend very quickly. Regarding Metallica, as I said earlier there are always a few exceptions even to this day.

I'd agree that the record industry used to stick with artists for longer than they do now, SF - and that they were less obsessed with marketing too - but I guess we disagree on when the most important shifts happened.

Was grunge any more fabricated than - say - punk? In the UK anyway punk was driven by a genuine underground reaction to the big, mainstream rock bands and tightly controlled radio playlists. And that was in 1976. Yes, the industry jumped on it and commercialized it - but the original fans of punk/new wave had felt that they were being spoonfed impossibly pretentious and dull middle-class rock music.

Equally, in the early 1990s after the absurdity of hair bands reached its peak - having been driven hard by the very same industry which now included MTV (who arguably spoonfed an entire generation in the 1980s) and which would go on to promote grunge - there was another reaction to the self-congratulatory posturings and musically formulaic pop/metal acts. The Seattle scene - crap though it was - started out as genuinely as even the first wave of rock n roll in the 1950s did.

Also - with the internet and MySpace - and the demise of MTV and CD-sales - the industry is actually less controlled now than it has ever been and for the truly interested music fan there's still plenty out there. Porcupine Tree being the perfect example: playing classic rock to a devoted fan base yet unknown in the mainstream. And they make it work for them and have an artistic freedom which Van Halen probably rarely had in the 1980s. And the people who don't take the initiative and search for new bands probably don't give a shit anyway and probably never did either.

As for co-existing...I think that's still happening. Slipknott are successful right alongside Rihanna. It's just that in terms of the mainstream our type of music went the way of Big Band music in the 1950s. It's music that somehow got fixed in time and I'm not sure we can blame Rolling Stone or some half-assed alternative rock guitarist for that.