Journey in Japan

[Rick]

Journey has been over for years ! Jeff put a spark on the radar but Neal & or Jon shot down that hope.

I'd have to say it was Jon. No way Neal shot down Jeff. I just can't see that.

[squirt1]

Jana- I don't think you saw the 80's. Now they have to do a 3 way split to draw a crowd. There really hasn't been the millions of albums sold that was accomplished with Perry from 1977-83 86 & 96. Then count the hits from the last 12 yrs . Journey is not huge anymore !!! Period !!!

[Jana]

Jana- I don't think you saw the 80's. Now they have to do a 3 way split to draw a crowd. There really hasn't been the millions of albums sold that was accomplished with Perry from 1977-83 86 & 96. Then count the hits from the last 12 yrs . Journey is not huge anymore !!! Period !!!

Oh, God, no, I don't think they're even close to the Perry days. Of course not. I just meant that they're not "over," which is what you said, and doing good for the age of the band and for a band that doesn't have the original singer.

[squirt1]

Jana- We are on the same page, for sure. It is sad what has happened to Styx, Foreigner & Survivor. All those guitarists will live on severely reduced paychecks. Their narcisism is likely cured if they ever thought the band revolved around them. I think Mick Jones is in the clear because of Lou's medical condition ,but Tommy Shaw and Frankie Sullivan thought it was all about them. I am thrilled that Peterik and Jamison are working together again. See You Tube SCRAP METAL the Search is over. Will the next decade actually produce bands that can write, play live and sing live ?

[Rick]

Jana- I don't think you saw the 80's. Now they have to do a 3 way split to draw a crowd. There really hasn't been the millions of albums sold that was accomplished with Perry from 1977-83 86 & 96. Then count the hits from the last 12 yrs . Journey is not huge anymore !!! Period !!!

Oh, God, no, I don't think they're even close to the Perry days. Of course not. I just meant that they're not "over," which is what you said, and doing good for the age of the band and for a band that doesn't have the original singer.

And for an 80's band in this time when the music climate is totally different. Journey always sells out Dallas, or at least every concert I've been to they have. They're definitely not over. I don't think Perry's absence is as big as people make it out to be. It's the change in peoples taste in music, internet piracy and the economy that hurts them more than anything.

[Jana]

Jana- I don't think you saw the 80's. Now they have to do a 3 way split to draw a crowd. There really hasn't been the millions of albums sold that was accomplished with Perry from 1977-83 86 & 96. Then count the hits from the last 12 yrs . Journey is not huge anymore !!! Period !!!

Oh, God, no, I don't think they're even close to the Perry days. Of course not. I just meant that they're not "over," which is what you said, and doing good for the age of the band and for a band that doesn't have the original singer.

And for an 80's band in this time when the music climate is totally different. Journey always sells out Dallas, or at least every concert I've been to they have. They're definitely not over. I don't think Perry's absence is as big as people make it out to be. It's the change in peoples taste in music, internet piracy and the economy that hurts them more than anything.

I agree. In Florida, they weren't sold out, but very close. I think it's a 20,000 seat ampitheatre.

[Don]

I believe it was something like 37 out of 54 shows sold out. I can't remember. I do remember BonJovi was 99 out of 99 shows, with a two and a half hour setlist. There is market out there for Rock, it's just how you present yourself and adapt to the changing music scene.

[texafana]

Journey has been over for years ! Jeff put a spark on the radar but Neal & or Jon shot down that hope.

Yah.. but aren't you glad JSS is rocking with his new solo CD? That probably wouldn't have happned if he stayed with Journey.

[The Sushi Hunter]

I was just reading Arnel's comments from his last shoutbox session. He said he was a little disappointed in the Philippine music industry. I think despite all the T V appearances on local Filipino shows, the public's reception is still lukewarm in his home country. I felt sorry for him after reading his comments.
On another note he doesn't know what Journey's plans are after the Manila show as far as touring.

Gunbot, I read that transcript. I think he was referencing back to the last 20 something years his disappointment in the music industry in the Philippines , but he said he's appreciative for all the success he's getting now over there thanks to Neal and his fans.

It's hard to read b/c of all the interruption from fans as he's typing.

It started because of a remark about the crowd being complacent during his
performance. You did understand that people were consoling him and telling him how much we love him in the states.
He tried to temper his remarks at the end of the session but he was spot on. because he doesn't dance or have the boy next door look, he wasn't fitting into what they like to promote over there. I guess you are a seeing it a different way but someone who posted the vid at the official site had this to say:
"What a rock star performance! Never mind the audience. They don't deserve someone like him, IMHO.

That came from a filiipno fan. His true fans are here in the states or OFW's as far as I'm concerned. But of course, that's just my opinion.

Yeah, I got what the fans were saying and the question about the lackluster audience and how they love him. But I got mixed up in what he was saying regarding disappointmentwise b/c his statements get split up so much with all the interruptions. I get confused easily.

Just look at these hosts, who are all singers, in the Arnel clips. There is nothing in common with him, but these people are the entertainment Idols of the Philippines. If AP's manager, Bert De Leon didn't have serious pull with ABS/CBN, Arnel would barely be on T.V. over there IMO.
Arnel deseves to make it over here so he can tell the Philippine Entertainment Industry to kiss his little brown ass.

Exactly! They only want him on their shows cause he can bring in ratings for them now. Like I've said, he's been singing and performing awesome for over twenty years before joining Journey. Now hows come all of a sudden all these Philippine shows notice him and want him to appear on their shows? I'd be pissed if I were him, but then again, that's where he's from and so he's got to play along with the game over there. Arnel was a super star to me and everyone else who knew him during the CalJam years. But we were all just the little people of the Philippines and all the big people there didn't want us to mix with them in their rich and famous life style world.

[Esc]

ive always felt that pineda is on a league of his own.
its a step down for him while performing with a fag like nievera.

[The Sushi Hunter]

Arnel isn't stupid, he knows the frustrations throughout the years.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I'd have to say it was Jon. No way Neal shot down Jeff. I just can't see that.

I could....
Given how Neal soured on Jeff after SoulSirkus, it wouldn't surprise me if something set him off again.
From all accounts, it doesn't take much to get on Neal's bad side.

In all likelihood, neither Neal or Jon needed their arm twisted to give JSS the bum's rush (imo).

[The Sushi Hunter]

it doesn't take much to get on Neal's bad side.

That's the way it is with most, if not all musicians, depending on how serious a musician is about the music they are creating.

[Deb]

Journey has been over for years ! Jeff put a spark on the radar but Neal & or Jon shot down that hope.

Yah.. but aren't you glad JSS is rocking with his new solo CD? That probably wouldn't have happned if he stayed with Journey.

Actually yes I agree, it's all as it should be. I think we've got lots more to come from JSS.......that wouldn't have happened if he was still out there singing Journey's catalogue.

[The Sushi Hunter]

Just got off the phone with my friend in Japan, will be going and purchasing three tickets for the concert in Japan bright an early tomorrow morning for us. Supposedly they are right up at the edge of the stage and center. Yes I'm excited cause it will be my first Journey concert. This trip will most likely be just as good as my October/November 2005 trip, when I went to see Show-Ya in concert. Those chicks rocked!

Anyways, I just can't wait for Arnel to see my fucking face looking up at him from in the audience in Japan.

[Jana]

Just got off the phone with my friend in Japan, will be going and purchasing three tickets for the concert in Japan bright an early tomorrow morning for us. Supposedly they are right up at the edge of the stage and center. Yes I'm excited cause it will be my first Journey concert. This trip will most likely be just as good as my October/November 2005 trip, when I went to see Show-Ya in concert. Those chicks rocked!

Anyways, I just can't wait for Arnel to see my fucking face looking up at him from in the audience in Japan.

Don't forget to post here after the concert and give us the details. Get some video, if you can.

[journel]

Just got off the phone with my friend in Japan, will be going and purchasing three tickets for the concert in Japan bright an early tomorrow morning for us. Supposedly they are right up at the edge of the stage and center. Yes I'm excited cause it will be my first Journey concert. This trip will most likely be just as good as my October/November 2005 trip, when I went to see Show-Ya in concert. Those chicks rocked!

Anyways, I just can't wait for Arnel to see my fucking face looking up at him from in the audience in Japan.

if arnel knows you that well...why not stay backstage and hang-out with the boys and be a roadie for a day or two?

[The Sushi Hunter]

Taking video at concerts in Japan are completely out of the question. When I was there for the Show Ya concert in October 2005, the Japanese were taking that shit seriously, yelling out with hand held bullhorns to us in line that all photographs and recordings (video/audio) was strictly prohibited and if caught, the person(s) will be removed from the concert no questions asked and their electronics device(s) would be confiscated and examined. If pix or recordings were found, there would then be hefty fines. So I don't think I'll be wanting to blow a good evening and a good trip to Japan. But then again, maybe it just depends on the band that's playing. Maybe Journey won't have that type of security going on. We'll see.

And about Arnel and I, well, when he's outside of America we don't communicate what so ever. It's only when he's in the U.S. So he won't be expecting to see me there for sure. Plus interestingly enough, since he's joined this band, I've not mentioned the word Journey to him and he's not mentioned it to me either. I've never once told him that I know he's in that band because I don't want him to think that I'm only admiring him for being in Journey. I admired him back when we first met in 86', when he was working hard trying to make a successful career with music. I had great admiration for all the members of AMO band back then too. I have great respect for him now and very fond memories of the times we shared in the Philippines among other places. I want to keep it that way. Even when I see him singing at the concert in Tokyo, I still won't mention anything about it to him. I like to just ask him about how he's doing and we talk about the old times and all the people we knew and how they are all doing now. To me that was the most important things. Some day when it's all said and done, we can then sit down and he can tell me whatever he wants to about his experiences in Journey.

But yes, if he can get me back stage, that would be nice. I would then go to the Osaka show also to watch.

[Don]

Taking video at concerts in Japan are completely out of the question. When I was there for the Show Ya concert in October 2005, the Japanese were taking that shit seriously, yelling out with hand held bullhorns to us in line that all photographs and recordings (video/audio) was strictly prohibited and if caught, the person(s) will be removed from the concert no questions asked and their electronics device(s) would be confiscated and examined. If pix or recordings were found, there would then be hefty fines. So I don't think I'll be wanting to blow a good evening and a good trip to Japan. But then again, maybe it just depends on the band that's playing. Maybe Journey won't have that type of security going on. We'll see.

And about Arnel and I, well, when he's outside of America we don't communicate what so ever. It's only when he's in the U.S. So he won't be expecting to see me there for sure. Plus interestingly enough, since he's joined this band, I've not mentioned the word Journey to him and he's not mentioned it to me either. I've never once told him that I know he's in that band because I don't want him to think that I'm only admiring him for being in Journey. I admired him back when we first met in 86', when he was working hard trying to make a successful career with music. I had great admiration for all the members of AMO band back then too. I have great respect for him now and very fond memories of the times we shared in the Philippines among other places. I want to keep it that way. Even when I see him singing at the concert in Tokyo, I still won't mention anything about it to him. I like to just ask him about how he's doing and we talk about the old times and all the people we knew and how they are all doing now. To me that was the most important things. Some day when it's all said and done, we can then sit down and he can tell me whatever he wants to about his experiences in Journey.

When I saw Bon Jovi at the Tokyo Dome, if you tried to enter with a camera, You got turned away. Since most people take the train, you can't just put the camera in your car, so you're screwed. That was 20 years ago but I got a feeling the policies are still in force. And don't try to be slick with a camera phone. You definitely don't want your cell phone confiscated. There is no due process over there when it comes to that stuff.

[The Sushi Hunter]

When I saw Bon Jovi at the Tokyo Dome, if you tried to enter with a camera, You got turned away. Since most people take the train, you can't just put the camera in your car, so you're screwed. That was 20 years ago but I got a feeling the policies are still in force.

You could always just return to the train station and put the camera in one of those lockers they got there. You put in your 100 yen and then you lock it and bring the key with you. But then walking back to the train station and then back to the concert hall, you'd probably miss almost the first half of the show.

Now the recording devices are so much smaller. The only quality pix and sound you could probably get is by taking it at close range. They seemed to have lots of people walking around during the show looking out for stuff like this as I can recall. But then again, you never know, it may depend on what the band's management requests. Maybe Show-Ya was so tight cause they were shooting the show for the DVD that they put out a few months later.

Watching some of those early Chile concerts Journey put on, it seemed lots of people were recording from cell phones and other small devices very openly right up next to the stage. So maybe Journey isn't such a stickler on that and won't have the Japanese enforce that type of policy. I'll just have to see if the dozen or so Japanese security police start yelling out those instructions with bullhorns while we are entering the concert hall, like they did at the Show Ya concert.

[Don]

When I saw Bon Jovi at the Tokyo Dome, if you tried to enter with a camera, You got turned away. Since most people take the train, you can't just put the camera in your car, so you're screwed. That was 20 years ago but I got a feeling the policies are still in force.

You could always just return to the train station and put the camera in one of those lockers they got there. You put in your 100 yen and then you lock it and bring the key with you. Now the recording devices are so much smaller. The only quality pix and sound you could probably get is by taking it at close range. They seemed to have lots of people walking around during the show looking out for stuff like this as I can recall. But then again, you never know, it may depend on what the band's management requests. Maybe Show-Ya was so tight cause they were shooting the show for the DVD that they put out a few months later.

Watching some of those early Chile concerts Journey put on, it seemed lots of people were recording from cell phones and other small devices very openly right up next to the stage. So maybe Journey isn't such a stickler on that and won't have the Japanese enforce that type of policy. I'll just have to see if the dozen or so Japanese security police start yelling out those instructions with bullhorns while we are entering the concert hall, like they did at the Show Ya concert.

Most of the time, it's the venues rules, not so much the band. These venues are so small that they're playing in Japan, it will definitely be hard to not get noticed, especially when everyone is sitting during the slower numbers. But you can always try. The worse thing that could happen is a fine and getting tossed and having your phone taken away. I'm sure some won't mind the risk.

[Jana]

Taking video at concerts in Japan are completely out of the question. When I was there for the Show Ya concert in October 2005, the Japanese were taking that shit seriously, yelling out with hand held bullhorns to us in line that all photographs and recordings (video/audio) was strictly prohibited and if caught, the person(s) will be removed from the concert no questions asked and their electronics device(s) would be confiscated and examined. If pix or recordings were found, there would then be hefty fines. So I don't think I'll be wanting to blow a good evening and a good trip to Japan. But then again, maybe it just depends on the band that's playing. Maybe Journey won't have that type of security going on. We'll see.

And about Arnel and I, well, when he's outside of America we don't communicate what so ever. It's only when he's in the U.S. So he won't be expecting to see me there for sure. Plus interestingly enough, since he's joined this band, I've not mentioned the word Journey to him and he's not mentioned it to me either. I've never once told him that I know he's in that band because I don't want him to think that I'm only admiring him for being in Journey. I admired him back when we first met in 86', when he was working hard trying to make a successful career with music. I had great admiration for all the members of AMO band back then too. I have great respect for him now and very fond memories of the times we shared in the Philippines among other places. I want to keep it that way. Even when I see him singing at the concert in Tokyo, I still won't mention anything about it to him. I like to just ask him about how he's doing and we talk about the old times and all the people we knew and how they are all doing now. To me that was the most important things. Some day when it's all said and done, we can then sit down and he can tell me whatever he wants to about his experiences in Journey.

But yes, if he can get me back stage, that would be nice. I would then go to the Osaka show also to watch.

You should let him know you're flying there to see him in concert with Journey. He would be so flattered and moved by that. Knowing he has a friend out in the audience would probably mean a lot to him.

[The Sushi Hunter]

When I saw Bon Jovi at the Tokyo Dome, if you tried to enter with a camera, You got turned away. Since most people take the train, you can't just put the camera in your car, so you're screwed. That was 20 years ago but I got a feeling the policies are still in force.

You could always just return to the train station and put the camera in one of those lockers they got there. You put in your 100 yen and then you lock it and bring the key with you. Now the recording devices are so much smaller. The only quality pix and sound you could probably get is by taking it at close range. They seemed to have lots of people walking around during the show looking out for stuff like this as I can recall. But then again, you never know, it may depend on what the band's management requests. Maybe Show-Ya was so tight cause they were shooting the show for the DVD that they put out a few months later.

Watching some of those early Chile concerts Journey put on, it seemed lots of people were recording from cell phones and other small devices very openly right up next to the stage. So maybe Journey isn't such a stickler on that and won't have the Japanese enforce that type of policy. I'll just have to see if the dozen or so Japanese security police start yelling out those instructions with bullhorns while we are entering the concert hall, like they did at the Show Ya concert.

Most of the time, it's the venues rules, not so much the band. These venues are so small that they're playing in Japan, it will definitely be hard to not get noticed, especially when everyone is sitting during the slower numbers. But you can always try. The worse thing that could happen is a fine and getting tossed and having your phone taken away. I'm sure some won't mind the risk.

That's o.k. I was never good at sneaky shit...I'll get caught and be tossed out on my head. When I go to Japan, it's like I'm going to church....I'm on my best behavior

[The Sushi Hunter]

Taking video at concerts in Japan are completely out of the question. When I was there for the Show Ya concert in October 2005, the Japanese were taking that shit seriously, yelling out with hand held bullhorns to us in line that all photographs and recordings (video/audio) was strictly prohibited and if caught, the person(s) will be removed from the concert no questions asked and their electronics device(s) would be confiscated and examined. If pix or recordings were found, there would then be hefty fines. So I don't think I'll be wanting to blow a good evening and a good trip to Japan. But then again, maybe it just depends on the band that's playing. Maybe Journey won't have that type of security going on. We'll see.

And about Arnel and I, well, when he's outside of America we don't communicate what so ever. It's only when he's in the U.S. So he won't be expecting to see me there for sure. Plus interestingly enough, since he's joined this band, I've not mentioned the word Journey to him and he's not mentioned it to me either. I've never once told him that I know he's in that band because I don't want him to think that I'm only admiring him for being in Journey. I admired him back when we first met in 86', when he was working hard trying to make a successful career with music. I had great admiration for all the members of AMO band back then too. I have great respect for him now and very fond memories of the times we shared in the Philippines among other places. I want to keep it that way. Even when I see him singing at the concert in Tokyo, I still won't mention anything about it to him. I like to just ask him about how he's doing and we talk about the old times and all the people we knew and how they are all doing now. To me that was the most important things. Some day when it's all said and done, we can then sit down and he can tell me whatever he wants to about his experiences in Journey.

But yes, if he can get me back stage, that would be nice. I would then go to the Osaka show also to watch.

You should let him know you're flying there to see him in concert with Journey. He would be so flattered and moved by that. Knowing he has a friend out in the audience would probably mean a lot to him.

When he sees me jumping up and down at the foot of the stage with a dopy smile on my puss, he'll know I flew all the way there just to see him.

[Don]

When I saw Bon Jovi at the Tokyo Dome, if you tried to enter with a camera, You got turned away. Since most people take the train, you can't just put the camera in your car, so you're screwed. That was 20 years ago but I got a feeling the policies are still in force.

You could always just return to the train station and put the camera in one of those lockers they got there. You put in your 100 yen and then you lock it and bring the key with you. Now the recording devices are so much smaller. The only quality pix and sound you could probably get is by taking it at close range. They seemed to have lots of people walking around during the show looking out for stuff like this as I can recall. But then again, you never know, it may depend on what the band's management requests. Maybe Show-Ya was so tight cause they were shooting the show for the DVD that they put out a few months later.

Watching some of those early Chile concerts Journey put on, it seemed lots of people were recording from cell phones and other small devices very openly right up next to the stage. So maybe Journey isn't such a stickler on that and won't have the Japanese enforce that type of policy. I'll just have to see if the dozen or so Japanese security police start yelling out those instructions with bullhorns while we are entering the concert hall, like they did at the Show Ya concert.

Most of the time, it's the venues rules, not so much the band. These venues are so small that they're playing in Japan, it will definitely be hard to not get noticed, especially when everyone is sitting during the slower numbers. But you can always try. The worse thing that could happen is a fine and getting tossed and having your phone taken away. I'm sure some won't mind the risk.

That's o.k. I was never good at sneaky shit...I'll get caught and be tossed out on my head. When I go to Japan, it's like I'm going to church....I'm on my best behavior

I've seen Japanese bicycle cops stop people who were just walking to the store in the middle of the day, just to look at their passport because they weren't Japanese, so I tried not to do too much stupid shit when I was there.

[The Sushi Hunter]

When I saw Bon Jovi at the Tokyo Dome, if you tried to enter with a camera, You got turned away. Since most people take the train, you can't just put the camera in your car, so you're screwed. That was 20 years ago but I got a feeling the policies are still in force.

You could always just return to the train station and put the camera in one of those lockers they got there. You put in your 100 yen and then you lock it and bring the key with you. Now the recording devices are so much smaller. The only quality pix and sound you could probably get is by taking it at close range. They seemed to have lots of people walking around during the show looking out for stuff like this as I can recall. But then again, you never know, it may depend on what the band's management requests. Maybe Show-Ya was so tight cause they were shooting the show for the DVD that they put out a few months later.

Watching some of those early Chile concerts Journey put on, it seemed lots of people were recording from cell phones and other small devices very openly right up next to the stage. So maybe Journey isn't such a stickler on that and won't have the Japanese enforce that type of policy. I'll just have to see if the dozen or so Japanese security police start yelling out those instructions with bullhorns while we are entering the concert hall, like they did at the Show Ya concert.

Most of the time, it's the venues rules, not so much the band. These venues are so small that they're playing in Japan, it will definitely be hard to not get noticed, especially when everyone is sitting during the slower numbers. But you can always try. The worse thing that could happen is a fine and getting tossed and having your phone taken away. I'm sure some won't mind the risk.

That's o.k. I was never good at sneaky shit...I'll get caught and be tossed out on my head. When I go to Japan, it's like I'm going to church....I'm on my best behavior

I've seen Japanese bicycle cops stop people who were just walking to the store in the middle of the day, just to look at their passport because they weren't Japanese, so I tried not to do too much stupid shit when I was there.

I knew two American's who spent a few days in Japanese jail once, wasn't pretty. For foreigners in Japan, following the laws and rules is a very smart idea. Like they say, if you want to commit crimes, come to America to commit the crimes cause at least you will have some rights after committing the crimes.

[Don]

When I saw Bon Jovi at the Tokyo Dome, if you tried to enter with a camera, You got turned away. Since most people take the train, you can't just put the camera in your car, so you're screwed. That was 20 years ago but I got a feeling the policies are still in force.

You could always just return to the train station and put the camera in one of those lockers they got there. You put in your 100 yen and then you lock it and bring the key with you. Now the recording devices are so much smaller. The only quality pix and sound you could probably get is by taking it at close range. They seemed to have lots of people walking around during the show looking out for stuff like this as I can recall. But then again, you never know, it may depend on what the band's management requests. Maybe Show-Ya was so tight cause they were shooting the show for the DVD that they put out a few months later.

Watching some of those early Chile concerts Journey put on, it seemed lots of people were recording from cell phones and other small devices very openly right up next to the stage. So maybe Journey isn't such a stickler on that and won't have the Japanese enforce that type of policy. I'll just have to see if the dozen or so Japanese security police start yelling out those instructions with bullhorns while we are entering the concert hall, like they did at the Show Ya concert.

Most of the time, it's the venues rules, not so much the band. These venues are so small that they're playing in Japan, it will definitely be hard to not get noticed, especially when everyone is sitting during the slower numbers. But you can always try. The worse thing that could happen is a fine and getting tossed and having your phone taken away. I'm sure some won't mind the risk.

That's o.k. I was never good at sneaky shit...I'll get caught and be tossed out on my head. When I go to Japan, it's like I'm going to church....I'm on my best behavior

I've seen Japanese bicycle cops stop people who were just walking to the store in the middle of the day, just to look at their passport because they weren't Japanese, so I tried not to do too much stupid shit when I was there.

I knew two American's who spent a few days in Japanese jail once, wasn't pretty. For foreigners in Japan, following the laws and rules is a very smart idea. Like they say, if you want to commit crimes, come to America to commit the crimes cause at least you will have some rights after committing the crimes.

I've always been under the assumption that when you are arrested in Japan you are, for all intensive purposes, guilty. Your appearance in court isn't about establishing whether you are innocent or not, but how much money you will have to pay and how much time you will be spending in the slammer.

[The Sushi Hunter]

That's pretty much accurate, or it at least used to be that way back in the 80's in Japan. That's why the two American's I knew got tossed in jail for a few days.

But another thing to consider about the Japanese is they are truthful honest people in general. When they commit a crime and fuck up and get caught, they pretty much fess up to their wrong doing right off the bat, in most cases that is. So it's a lot different in Japan then in America and other places of the world. Even though they may commit a crime, they still have some truthfulness within themselves where they admit their guilt and not blame others for their wrong doing and/or bad behavior. I guess that's their personal honor system, though over the years it's slowly going away from their society.