Kelly Hansen

[annie89509]

See, the thing is when they hired JSS to be their new lead singer, they led us to believe that Journey was going for a new direction. Sammy Hagar went on record as saying SA was essentially a SP-clone, that the J-boys are finally ridding themselves of the Great One's shadow. Some other people were comparing this to the Queen+Paul Rogers thing.

Then, poof, back to the (SP) legacy sound act.

[Ehwmatt]

See, the thing is when they hired JSS to be their new lead singer, they led us to believe that Journey was going for a new direction. Sammy Hagar went on record as saying SA was essentially a SP-clone, that the J-boys are finally ridding themselves of the Great One's shadow. Some other people were comparing this to the Queen+Paul Rogers thing.

Then, poof, back to the (SP) legacy sound act.

Queen+Paul Rodgers sucked, coming from a fan of Free, BC, and of course Queen.

[Rick]

See, the thing is when they hired JSS to be their new lead singer, they led us to believe that Journey was going for a new direction. Sammy Hagar went on record as saying SA was essentially a SP-clone, that the J-boys are finally ridding themselves of the Great One's shadow. Some other people were comparing this to the Queen+Paul Rogers thing.

Then, poof, back to the (SP) legacy sound act.

Queen+Paul Rodgers sucked, coming from a fan of Free, BC, and of course Queen.

I don't care for Queen with PR either. I know I've said this a hundred times on this board, but I think JSS would have been a much better singer for that band.

[Jana]

Perry was but a part of the band. The band is bigger than the man. Much bigger. They are simply honoring his contributions with a voice of similar tone and quality.

Of course!, they are much bigger, like there were a lot of hits before and after Perry! well maybe not legitimate real hits, but they were hits among the minority of fans among the forums, that has to count for something right?, +! just because the band sold more albums, had more recognition and fame while Steve Perry was with them, doesn't make them any less a band now. Augeri took these guys places you know, Vegas, and Philadelphia, and back to Vegas to name a few.

Are you kidding me?

I honestly don't know what to say. In addition to abusing sarcasm, you also seem to be slanting facts. Music tastes change with time. The fact that Journey hasn't produced a string of hit records doesn't mean shit about Perry. You do realize that Jonathan Cain's first album with Journey outsold Perry's first album with Journey by, what? Three, four times? Producing many more hits and an ocean's difference of cultural recognition?

By your reckoning, Jonathan Cain > Steve Perry.

By your reckoning then, since Cain has been on all the albums since Perry left, the law of averages would say, regardless of musical taste that Journey would have at the very least, even if only at number 39, one top 40 hit somewhere over the last 10 years. Bon Jovi's done it, U2 has done it. Besides a few songs hitting the A/C chart, the hot 100 has become foreign territory since Perry left. As much as Perry might have needed Cain to really hit the top of the charts, Cain needs Perry also to have a whiff of success. You do know that this year, despite being able to get a free disc of the Greatest Hits included with Revelation, people went out and bought the original greatest hits instead, pushing it to 15x Platinum.
Apparently when it comes to Journey, some people still prefer the original singer singing the hits when it comes to spending their money on a Journey album.

One Journey song has gone near the top of the Itunes chart, three times in the last four years, and the vocalist wasn't Pineda, Augeri or JSS or heaven forbid Cain. For A guy who wasn't an integral part of the band, the songs sporting his vocals sure get a lot of airplay everyday.

It's great they have Arnel but he will always be in the shadow of the Voice. Journey's setlists ensure that this is so.

It's not really a bad thing though, as AP is more about keeping food on the table and a roof over his families head. For him it's a job that helps him survive the trials of living in a third world country, which is quite a different take from the way the former singers may have looked at it, and the reason he has earned tons of respect from most of us.

True. I saw on Arnel's site some interview with a shot of his new house, which was nice, and you couldn't help but be happy for him that he finally has that financial security now after all these years compared to where he came from.

BTW, GB, he finally sang a Revelation song over there in the Phils, AATY. They just posted it.

[Rick]

True. I saw on Arnel's site some interview with a shot of his new house, which was nice, and you couldn't help but be happy for him that he finally has that financial security now after all these years compared to where he came from.

BTW, GB, he finally sang a Revelation song over there in the Phils, AATY. They just posted it.

And he knocked it out of the park, as usual. I love that song. Thanks for the heads up on that. I went right over there and watched it.

[Jana]

True. I saw on Arnel's site some interview with a shot of his new house, which was nice, and you couldn't help but be happy for him that he finally has that financial security now after all these years compared to where he came from.

BTW, GB, he finally sang a Revelation song over there in the Phils, AATY. They just posted it.

And he knocked it out of the park, as usual. I love that song. Thanks for the heads up on that. I went right over there and watched it.

He was great. I really like that song, too, and it has that Journey sound. I've been bitchin' about no new songs from Revelation being sung by him over there, so now I can stop.

[Don]

True. I saw on Arnel's site some interview with a shot of his new house, which was nice, and you couldn't help but be happy for him that he finally has that financial security now after all these years compared to where he came from.

BTW, GB, he finally sang a Revelation song over there in the Phils, AATY. They just posted it.

And he knocked it out of the park, as usual. I love that song. Thanks for the heads up on that. I went right over there and watched it.

He was great. I really like that song, too, and it has that Journey sound. I've been bitchin' about no new songs from Revelation being sung by him over there, so now I can stop.

I saw that a few hours ago. Since he was leaving the country, I wonder if Journey told him, "okay, one song only".
It is weird seeing him do a new song without the band though.
He has said he won't sing any Journey songs while with Lani which I am happy to hear. That would be too much like a solo tour ala Perry.

[Don]

I don't see how Hansen gets so much love whereas Pineda got so much derision. Foreigner really is a full on cover band now.
Hansen is good yes but doesn't stand out to me. The one new song sounds like Maroon 5 more than Foreigner. That's not necessarily Hansen's fault though.

Mick Jones (the Frederick Frankenstein of rock, with hair and glasses to match) has lost his creativity imo.

Hopefully they'll do a full cd of new tunes with Hansen so I can give him a fair shake. I personally thought Johnny Edwards was a better fit but what do I know.

Can ya tell I miss the old Gramm?

Disc two of Revelation might have something to do with it. If Foreigner had did that, 6 months after Kelly joined the band there could have been a similar backlash. Not Arnels fault of course. Foreigner would have been bashed hard, cashing in on Lou's Legacy (and you probably would have been leading the charge, rightfully so of course).

They're doing it now though. Apparently their new album will consist of half new material and half re-recordings of classic material. My guess is it will be a double album just like Revelation.

They just released a new greatest hits collection in July, so that would be odd. Kelly has been with them for three years now, they need to do something new eventually I would think. One new song (Too late) isn't much for output. I think the backlash will be less for Kelly now that he has done a few tours with the band. If they had done re-records when he first came on board, it would have been a different story obviously. Still, it sucked when Journey did it, It sucked when Pure Prairie League did it and it will suck when/if Foreigner does it.

[Vladan]

Perry was but a part of the band. The band is bigger than the man. Much bigger. They are simply honoring his contributions with a voice of similar tone and quality.

Of course!, they are much bigger, like there were a lot of hits before and after Perry! well maybe not legitimate real hits, but they were hits among the minority of fans among the forums, that has to count for something right?, +! just because the band sold more albums, had more recognition and fame while Steve Perry was with them, doesn't make them any less a band now. Augeri took these guys places you know, Vegas, and Philadelphia, and back to Vegas to name a few.

Are you kidding me?

I honestly don't know what to say. In addition to abusing sarcasm, you also seem to be slanting facts. Music tastes change with time. The fact that Journey hasn't produced a string of hit records doesn't mean shit about Perry. You do realize that Jonathan Cain's first album with Journey outsold Perry's first album with Journey by, what? Three, four times? Producing many more hits and an ocean's difference of cultural recognition?

By your reckoning, Jonathan Cain > Steve Perry.

By your reckoning then, since Cain has been on all the albums since Perry left, the law of averages would say, regardless of musical taste that Journey would have at the very least, even if only at number 39, one top 40 hit somewhere over the last 10 years. Bon Jovi's done it, U2 has done it. Besides a few songs hitting the A/C chart, the hot 100 has become foreign territory since Perry left. As much as Perry might have needed Cain to really hit the top of the charts, Cain needs Perry also to have a whiff of success. You do know that this year, despite being able to get a free disc of the Greatest Hits included with Revelation, people went out and bought the original greatest hits instead, pushing it to 15x Platinum.
Apparently when it comes to Journey, some people still prefer the original singer singing the hits when it comes to spending their money on a Journey album.

One Journey song has gone near the top of the Itunes chart, three times in the last four years, and the vocalist wasn't Pineda, Augeri or JSS or heaven forbid Cain. For A guy who wasn't an integral part of the band, the songs sporting his vocals sure get a lot of airplay everyday.

It's great they have Arnel but he will always be in the shadow of the Voice. Journey's setlists ensure that this is so.

It's not really a bad thing though, as AP is more about keeping food on the table and a roof over his families head. For him it's a job that helps him survive the trials of living in a third world country, which is quite a different take from the way the former singers may have looked at it, and the reason he has earned tons of respect from most of us.

Yep, that was well put by Gunbot, I really don't need to ad anything else apart from - I was having a little fun earlier, while poking fun at the "new guy", it seems he may of a little carried away, obviously very green around these parts. Well I use to drive BackTalk forums absolutely nuts with those type of posts, they didn't know what to do, bless their little cotton socks.

[Michigan Girl]

and it was funny, too!!

[bluejeangirl76]

You do know that this year, despite being able to get a free disc of the Greatest Hits included with Revelation, people went out and bought the original greatest hits instead, pushing it to 15x Platinum.


One Journey song has gone near the top of the Itunes chart, three times in the last four years, and the vocalist wasn't Pineda, Augeri or JSS or heaven forbid Cain. For A guy who wasn't an integral part of the band, the songs sporting his vocals sure get a lot of airplay everyday.

You talk pretty, gunbot. But its true. I leave the radio on the same station all day from 8 - 5, and I hear "Classic" (translation: Perry) Journey about every 1 1/2 to 2 hours. I should leave this channel run for 24 straight hours and see how many times Perry/Journey shows up - my guess would be 10-12.

I've heard a total of ONE Revelation track played (not on the channel I play... on a channel that no longer exits).
No one else is really bothering, plain and simple.

[WykkedSensation]

This guy's great.
Would've been an excellent fit for Journey too.

NC, i have thought this a million times regarding Kelly and Journey. Good to hear i am not on my own in thinking it.

[Gideon]

One Journey song has gone near the top of the Itunes chart, three times in the last four years, and the vocalist wasn't Pineda, Augeri or JSS or heaven forbid Cain. For A guy who wasn't an integral part of the band, the songs sporting his vocals sure get a lot of airplay everyday.

Who said he wasn't an integral part of the band?

Christ, I don't get it. I respect the man, love his voice, and admire his contributions. But simply because I correctly point out that Journey wasn't all about him, I'm concluding he "wasn't integral"?

That's bullshit of the highest order.

Edit: Vladan, I'm not upset. I'm confused why you use double standards and seemingly refuse to acknowledge the rest of the band's contributions to Journey. To imply that Steve Perry was the sole reason for Journey's success simply isn't true. In fact, I'll give you two advantages the rest of the band has on him:

1.) They can still play their instruments with remarkable proficiency.
2.) Without Journey, Perry would be working on chicken coops.

Love the man. Love his voice. But there's more to Journey than just him and statements to the contrary can never be justified.

[Vladan]

Edit: Vladan, I'm not upset. I'm confused why you use double standards and seemingly refuse to acknowledge the rest of the band's contributions to Journey. To imply that Steve Perry was the sole reason for Journey's success simply isn't true. In fact, I'll give you two advantages the rest of the band has on him:

1.) They can still play their instruments with remarkable proficiency.
2.) Without Journey, Perry would be working on chicken coops.

Love the man. Love his voice. But there's more to Journey than just him and statements to the contrary can never be justified.

Well because quite frankly, Steve Perry is Journey, and Journey is Steve Perry. They both go hand in hand, and without Perry - well, just take a look at their track record, song selection, song writing, and the vocals from the period of 1998 to 2006, I think the word "mediocre" comes to mind. You can't go from one of the greatest rock singers in history, to a cover act. He was the voice that brought them success, well he was the biggest part of the success, as far as Neal Schon and the masses are concerned.

Perry basically took the initiative to bring the band together in 1996, as Journey had no desire, Perry leaves for whatever reason... they boys stay, and decide to go straight to a karaoke act and expect to have the same success, as they even hired other song writers for Arrival, nice way to ruin the formula. And the sad reality... Steve Augeri appears to be forgotten already, if he wasn't such a nice guy it would be easy to be more honest. Steve Augeri is a fine singer, no doubt, Neal, Jon, Ross, Deen are all fine musicians, no question. But the main issue was the front men, they sounded good singing their own songs, but literally died in the backside every time they sang a Perry fronted song, they absolutely bombed.

There is no argument when it comes to Arnel Pineda's vocal ability, he can carry a Journey tune with ease, but again Arnel still sounds better singing his own songs, in my opinion. It really is impossible to find any faults in Arnel's vocal ability, he can match Perry according to people, and I wouldn't argue with that, and certainly the best choice for this band as far as Journey is concerned. They are riding off the legacy sound, Perry era (1977-1996).

But, you can go and listen to Arrival and Generations, and tell us how it works out for you

[annie89509]

V, I would agreed with everything you just said, but there are a lot of Journey board members that absolutely adore Arrival.

[Gideon]

Well because quite frankly, Steve Perry is Journey, and Journey is Steve Perry.

There are a plethora of answers befitting such a statement, but the most appropriate one with the least amount of letters would be "no." Second place would be "lol" and a distant third is "fuck no."

One of those music artists has just put out a platinum album and finished a nationally critically acclaimed tour. The man whom you credit the entirety of their success to is sitting on his ass at home, wistfully recalling the days when he could actually do something with his instrument.

They both go hand in hand, and without Perry - well, just take a look at their track record, song selection, song writing, and the vocals from the period of 1998 to 2006, I think the word "mediocre" comes to mind.

That's completely subjective. While I won't argue for a second that the vocals were an improvement, the rest were hardly mediocre.

You can't go from one of the greatest rock singers in history, to a cover act.

Well, it's a good thing they didn't. Journey was the band; Perry was but a part of it. They aren't covering Journey since two of the founding members (one of whom was a child prodigy and is still capable of wielding his particular instrument with great skill -- unlike Perry) and the man who helped launch them into superstardom still function in the band. There was a Journey before Perry and there is a Journey after Perry.

He was the voice that brought them success, well he was the biggest part of the success, as far as Neal Schon and the masses are concerned.

No one denied that he was the biggest part of their success. I simply said that wasn't the only part. No offense, but you might want to consider getting your head out of Perry's ass. If it weren't for the efforts of Herbie Herbert, Neal Schon, and Gregg Rolie, Perry's voice would be lost to history. Perry owes Journey the entirety of his career. And no, it isn't up for debate.

Perry basically took the initiative to bring the band together in 1996, as Journey had no desire, Perry leaves for whatever reason... they boys stay,

Your revisionist history is disturbing. Are you so determined to paint Perry as the patron saint of success? Let's run back through:

Journey was in the midst of remerging with Kevin Chalfant as lead singer before Perry fucked that up for ambiguous reasons and predictably did not commit to a tour. Now, as far as fuck ups go, Trial By Fire is one of the better ones (imo, it's the best Journey album), but the success faded, the boys grew weary, and Perry refused to get treatment for his hip injury. If anyone is to blame for Perry no longer being part of Journey: it's Perry. No one else . Not Neal. Not Jon. Perry.

and decide to go straight to a karaoke act and expect to have the same success, as they even hired other song writers for Arrival, nice way to ruin the formula.

Not sure how they were relegated to karaoke status because their lead singer screwed them over and forced them to move on. Also not sure how "hiring song writers" for Arrival is an issue; Perry hired enough singers for Street Talk and FtLoSM to fill a fucking football stadium. Neal and co. enlisted a couple of writers on a couple of songs.

And the sad reality... Steve Augeri appears to be forgotten already, if he wasn't such a nice guy it would be easy to be more honest. Steve Augeri is a fine singer, no doubt, Neal, Jon, Ross, Deen are all fine musicians, no question. But the main issue was the front men, they sounded good singing their own songs, but literally died in the backside every time they sang a Perry fronted song, they absolutely bombed.

The thousands of fans who have continued to see Journey again and again for the past eleven years would disagree.

There is no argument when it comes to Arnel Pineda's vocal ability, he can carry a Journey tune with ease, but again Arnel still sounds better singing his own songs, in my opinion. It really is impossible to find any faults in Arnel's vocal ability, he can match Perry according to people, and I wouldn't argue with that, and certainly the best choice for this band as far as Journey is concerned. They are riding off the legacy sound, Perry era (1977-1996).

Even I wouldn't go that far. Both Perry and Arnel have/had flaws vocally; they're human beings. Arnel's is more related to diction and phrasing than anything.

But, you can go and listen to Arrival and Generations, and tell us how it works out for you

I enjoy them both, actually. I don't see what the issue is or how you can construct your argument. The idea that Perry is the sole reason for Journey's success is without merit. The biggest factor? Sure. And no one denied that. Your opinion is that Journey has been "mediocre" post-Perry and it is entirely subjective. For most people, it seems that in terms of musicianship, the band has increased in skill with age. In terms of work ethic and stamina, Journey also get the nod over Perry (by miles and miles and miles and miles...). In terms of success, well, you can compare it like this. Arrival sold, what? 330k after being leaked on Napster, five years after Trial By Fire? Generations and Red 13 bombed, no two ways about it.

But let's compare post-Perry Journey's great success (Revelation) to Steve Perry's great solo success Street Talk. Street Talk was released during the height of Journey's success, pushed by their workhorse manager, and the charted singles were Journey-esque in nature. Revelation went platinum a full twenty years after Journey's prime and followed it up with a megasuccessful tour.

And, finally, the coup de grace: Steve Perry was on the verge of "hanging up his rock and roll shoes" and entertaining a career in amateur construction; mending chicken coops. An honorable living, sure. Can't fault him for it. Meanwhile, Neal Schon and Jonathan Cain both enjoyed great commercial success without Journey and Steve Perry in Bad English. And while you bring up how Neal and company cite Perry as being the major factor in Journey's success (which no one denied), you also have Perry's comments in GQ that Journey "was Neal's band" and cited his prodigious talent. One thing's for certain: they may dislike one another as a person, but they seem to have the utmost respect for each other as musicians.

The only logical conclusion being: while Perry's voice was the major factor in Journey's success, without Neal, Gregg, and Herbie... Perry wouldn't have a career at all. Rather than mock Journey's works post-Perry as "mediocre", would you consider thanking them for being vehicle for the greatest Voice rock's ever seen?

[Vladan]

V, I would agreed with everything you just said, but there are a lot of Journey board members that absolutely adore Arrival.

Thank you annie, I feel you are a wise person. But I do appologise about Arrival, that was wrong of me, it's actually pretty good for a record.

Well because quite frankly, Steve Perry is Journey, and Journey is Steve Perry.

There are a plethora of answers befitting such a statement, but the most appropriate one with the least amount of letters would be "no." Second place would be "lol" and a distant third is "fuck no."

One of those music artists has just put out a platinum album and finished a nationally critically acclaimed tour. The man whom you credit the entirety of their success to is sitting on his ass at home, wistfully recalling the days when he could actually do something with his instrument.

They both go hand in hand, and without Perry - well, just take a look at their track record, song selection, song writing, and the vocals from the period of 1998 to 2006, I think the word "mediocre" comes to mind.

That's completely subjective. While I won't argue for a second that the vocals were an improvement, the rest were hardly mediocre.

You can't go from one of the greatest rock singers in history, to a cover act.

Well, it's a good thing they didn't. Journey was the band; Perry was but a part of it. They aren't covering Journey since two of the founding members (one of whom was a child prodigy and is still capable of wielding his particular instrument with great skill -- unlike Perry) and the man who helped launch them into superstardom still function in the band. There was a Journey before Perry and there is a Journey after Perry.

He was the voice that brought them success, well he was the biggest part of the success, as far as Neal Schon and the masses are concerned.

No one denied that he was the biggest part of their success. I simply said that wasn't the only part. No offense, but you might want to consider getting your head out of Perry's ass. If it weren't for the efforts of Herbie Herbert, Neal Schon, and Gregg Rolie, Perry's voice would be lost to history. Perry owes Journey the entirety of his career. And no, it isn't up for debate.

Perry basically took the initiative to bring the band together in 1996, as Journey had no desire, Perry leaves for whatever reason... they boys stay,

Your revisionist history is disturbing. Are you so determined to paint Perry as the patron saint of success? Let's run back through:

Journey was in the midst of remerging with Kevin Chalfant as lead singer before Perry fucked that up for ambiguous reasons and predictably did not commit to a tour. Now, as far as fuck ups go, Trial By Fire is one of the better ones (imo, it's the best Journey album), but the success faded, the boys grew weary, and Perry refused to get treatment for his hip injury. If anyone is to blame for Perry no longer being part of Journey: it's Perry. No one else . Not Neal. Not Jon. Perry.

and decide to go straight to a karaoke act and expect to have the same success, as they even hired other song writers for Arrival, nice way to ruin the formula.

Not sure how they were relegated to karaoke status because their lead singer screwed them over and forced them to move on. Also not sure how "hiring song writers" for Arrival is an issue; Perry hired enough singers for Street Talk and FtLoSM to fill a fucking football stadium. Neal and co. enlisted a couple of writers on a couple of songs.

And the sad reality... Steve Augeri appears to be forgotten already, if he wasn't such a nice guy it would be easy to be more honest. Steve Augeri is a fine singer, no doubt, Neal, Jon, Ross, Deen are all fine musicians, no question. But the main issue was the front men, they sounded good singing their own songs, but literally died in the backside every time they sang a Perry fronted song, they absolutely bombed.

The thousands of fans who have continued to see Journey again and again for the past eleven years would disagree.

There is no argument when it comes to Arnel Pineda's vocal ability, he can carry a Journey tune with ease, but again Arnel still sounds better singing his own songs, in my opinion. It really is impossible to find any faults in Arnel's vocal ability, he can match Perry according to people, and I wouldn't argue with that, and certainly the best choice for this band as far as Journey is concerned. They are riding off the legacy sound, Perry era (1977-1996).

Even I wouldn't go that far. Both Perry and Arnel have/had flaws vocally; they're human beings. Arnel's is more related to diction and phrasing than anything.

But, you can go and listen to Arrival and Generations, and tell us how it works out for you

I enjoy them both, actually. I don't see what the issue is or how you can construct your argument. The idea that Perry is the sole reason for Journey's success is without merit. The biggest factor? Sure. And no one denied that. Your opinion is that Journey has been "mediocre" post-Perry and it is entirely subjective. For most people, it seems that in terms of musicianship, the band has increased in skill with age. In terms of work ethic and stamina, Journey also get the nod over Perry (by miles and miles and miles and miles...). In terms of success, well, you can compare it like this. Arrival sold, what? 330k after being leaked on Napster, five years after Trial By Fire? Generations and Red 13 bombed, no two ways about it.

But let's compare post-Perry Journey's great success (Revelation) to Steve Perry's great solo success Street Talk. Street Talk was released during the height of Journey's success, pushed by their workhorse manager, and the charted singles were Journey-esque in nature. Revelation went platinum a full twenty years after Journey's prime and followed it up with a megasuccessful tour.

And, finally, the coup de grace: Steve Perry was on the verge of "hanging up his rock and roll shoes" and entertaining a career in amateur construction; mending chicken coops. An honorable living, sure. Can't fault him for it. Meanwhile, Neal Schon and Jonathan Cain both enjoyed great commercial success without Journey and Steve Perry in Bad English. And while you bring up how Neal and company cite Perry as being the major factor in Journey's success (which no one denied), you also have Perry's comments in GQ that Journey "was Neal's band" and cited his prodigious talent. One thing's for certain: they may dislike one another as a person, but they seem to have the utmost respect for each other as musicians.

The only logical conclusion being: while Perry's voice was the major factor in Journey's success, without Neal, Gregg, and Herbie... Perry wouldn't have a career at all. Rather than mock Journey's works post-Perry as "mediocre", would you consider thanking them for being vehicle for the greatest Voice rock's ever seen?

OK, thank you. That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it

On a side note. And this is for everyone here:

You see, I pay for all my Journey CD's music, good money, I work for it, I pay my dues. We are all fans here, no? because not you, not anyone here "knows the full truth" as a fan I am entitled to my opinion, people we can sit here all day and argue back and forth, but I am not all about trying to convince the other guy, simply because I don't need to - and people will sit here and pick my posts apart, and just because they believe they are a bigger fan, and consider their knowledge greater? who knows, it doesn't mean they know more about singing, quality, or chemistry. If you know more?, more power to you - if you are a fanatic? well then I won't turn my back on you, because I don't wanna get stabbed!, or if you are a band member, or a part of the Journey management, well... I am sorry to hear that.

Music is subjective, yes, yes it is - but doesn't make it good though. Or if I want to listen to an album that sounded like it was recorded in a garage, I will stick on Generations. But I don't want to do that, I don't want to support a name, just because it's called "Journey", I may as well be listening to bad English. If I pay the money, I expect quality, if it doesn't live up to the name - you will hear about it, as long as I am paying and supporting these guys, I will be heard, and expect the same goes for everyone else, but that's as far as it "should" go.

Thanks.

[annie89509]

Well because quite frankly, Steve Perry is Journey, and Journey is Steve Perry.

There are a plethora of answers befitting such a statement, but the most appropriate one with the least amount of letters would be "no." Second place would be "lol" and a distant third is "fuck no."

One of those music artists has just put out a platinum album and finished a nationally critically acclaimed tour. The man whom you credit the entirety of their success to is sitting on his ass at home, wistfully recalling the days when he could actually do something with his instrument.

They both go hand in hand, and without Perry - well, just take a look at their track record, song selection, song writing, and the vocals from the period of 1998 to 2006, I think the word "mediocre" comes to mind.

That's completely subjective. While I won't argue for a second that the vocals were an improvement, the rest were hardly mediocre.

You can't go from one of the greatest rock singers in history, to a cover act.

Well, it's a good thing they didn't. Journey was the band; Perry was but a part of it. They aren't covering Journey since two of the founding members (one of whom was a child prodigy and is still capable of wielding his particular instrument with great skill -- unlike Perry) and the man who helped launch them into superstardom still function in the band. There was a Journey before Perry and there is a Journey after Perry.

He was the voice that brought them success, well he was the biggest part of the success, as far as Neal Schon and the masses are concerned.

No one denied that he was the biggest part of their success. I simply said that wasn't the only part. No offense, but you might want to consider getting your head out of Perry's ass. If it weren't for the efforts of Herbie Herbert, Neal Schon, and Gregg Rolie, Perry's voice would be lost to history. Perry owes Journey the entirety of his career. And no, it isn't up for debate.

Perry basically took the initiative to bring the band together in 1996, as Journey had no desire, Perry leaves for whatever reason... they boys stay,

Your revisionist history is disturbing. Are you so determined to paint Perry as the patron saint of success? Let's run back through:

Journey was in the midst of remerging with Kevin Chalfant as lead singer before Perry fucked that up for ambiguous reasons and predictably did not commit to a tour. Now, as far as fuck ups go, Trial By Fire is one of the better ones (imo, it's the best Journey album), but the success faded, the boys grew weary, and Perry refused to get treatment for his hip injury. If anyone is to blame for Perry no longer being part of Journey: it's Perry. No one else . Not Neal. Not Jon. Perry.

and decide to go straight to a karaoke act and expect to have the same success, as they even hired other song writers for Arrival, nice way to ruin the formula.

Not sure how they were relegated to karaoke status because their lead singer screwed them over and forced them to move on. Also not sure how "hiring song writers" for Arrival is an issue; Perry hired enough singers for Street Talk and FtLoSM to fill a fucking football stadium. Neal and co. enlisted a couple of writers on a couple of songs.

And the sad reality... Steve Augeri appears to be forgotten already, if he wasn't such a nice guy it would be easy to be more honest. Steve Augeri is a fine singer, no doubt, Neal, Jon, Ross, Deen are all fine musicians, no question. But the main issue was the front men, they sounded good singing their own songs, but literally died in the backside every time they sang a Perry fronted song, they absolutely bombed.

The thousands of fans who have continued to see Journey again and again for the past eleven years would disagree.

There is no argument when it comes to Arnel Pineda's vocal ability, he can carry a Journey tune with ease, but again Arnel still sounds better singing his own songs, in my opinion. It really is impossible to find any faults in Arnel's vocal ability, he can match Perry according to people, and I wouldn't argue with that, and certainly the best choice for this band as far as Journey is concerned. They are riding off the legacy sound, Perry era (1977-1996).

Even I wouldn't go that far. Both Perry and Arnel have/had flaws vocally; they're human beings. Arnel's is more related to diction and phrasing than anything.

But, you can go and listen to Arrival and Generations, and tell us how it works out for you

I enjoy them both, actually. I don't see what the issue is or how you can construct your argument. The idea that Perry is the sole reason for Journey's success is without merit. The biggest factor? Sure. And no one denied that. Your opinion is that Journey has been "mediocre" post-Perry and it is entirely subjective. For most people, it seems that in terms of musicianship, the band has increased in skill with age. In terms of work ethic and stamina, Journey also get the nod over Perry (by miles and miles and miles and miles...). In terms of success, well, you can compare it like this. Arrival sold, what? 330k after being leaked on Napster, five years after Trial By Fire? Generations and Red 13 bombed, no two ways about it.

But let's compare post-Perry Journey's great success (Revelation) to Steve Perry's great solo success Street Talk. Street Talk was released during the height of Journey's success, pushed by their workhorse manager, and the charted singles were Journey-esque in nature. Revelation went platinum a full twenty years after Journey's prime and followed it up with a megasuccessful tour.

And, finally, the coup de grace: Steve Perry was on the verge of "hanging up his rock and roll shoes" and entertaining a career in amateur construction; mending chicken coops. An honorable living, sure. Can't fault him for it. Meanwhile, Neal Schon and Jonathan Cain both enjoyed great commercial success without Journey and Steve Perry in Bad English. And while you bring up how Neal and company cite Perry as being the major factor in Journey's success (which no one denied), you also have Perry's comments in GQ that Journey "was Neal's band" and cited his prodigious talent. One thing's for certain: they may dislike one another as a person, but they seem to have the utmost respect for each other as musicians.

The only logical conclusion being: while Perry's voice was the major factor in Journey's success, without Neal, Gregg, and Herbie... Perry wouldn't have a career at all. Rather than mock Journey's works post-Perry as "mediocre", would you consider thanking them for being vehicle for the greatest Voice rock's ever seen?

Gideon, I think you said you were 17, right? Boy, you sure are acting like your age with the above dissertation and long tirade against someone’s opinion.

Seems to me you are the one using “revisionist history” to bolster your point of view. SP gave up the music biz to “mend chicken coops”?!? Do you honestly believe that had Journey not made the first contact, some other band would not have snatched him up?

Vladan expressed his preference and opinion. You are free to do the same. No need to pick apart and contradict his feelings.

[finalfight]

Gideon, I think you said you were 17, right? Boy, you sure are acting like your age with the above dissertation and long tirade against someone’s opinion.

Seems to me you are the one using “revisionist history” to bolster your point of view. SP gave up the music biz to “mend chicken coops”?!? Do you honestly believe that had Journey not made the first contact, some other band would not have snatched him up?

Vladan expressed his preference and opinion. You are free to do the same. No need to pick apart and contradict his feelings.

Actually I think Gideon stated his case quite amicably and to be fair was pretty much right on the button regarding the band's history.

Opinions may differ and there are always two sides to any argument but facts are facts and pushing aside passionate feelings one way or the other still only leads to one conclusion and Gideon is spot on in his/her assessment.

And further more Journey did not want Perry in the band initially. Herbie Herbert practically strong-armed him in. There is every chance that he might well have gone unnoticed otherwise just as Augeri would still be working in retail. Both had turned their backs on the music business prior to being discovered or in Augeri's case re-discovered.

[SherriBerry]

Gideon, I think you said you were 17, right? Boy, you sure are acting like your age with the above dissertation and long tirade against someone’s opinion.

Seems to me you are the one using “revisionist history” to bolster your point of view. SP gave up the music biz to “mend chicken coops”?!? Do you honestly believe that had Journey not made the first contact, some other band would not have snatched him up?

Vladan expressed his preference and opinion. You are free to do the same. No need to pick apart and contradict his feelings.

Actually I think Gideon stated his case quite amicably and to be fair was pretty much right on the button regarding the band's history.

Opinions may differ and there are always two sides to any argument but facts are facts and pushing aside passionate feelings one way or the other still only leads to one conclusion and Gideon is spot on in his/her assessment.

And further more Journey did not want Perry in the band initially. Herbie Herbert practically strong-armed him in. There is every chance that he might well have gone unnoticed otherwise just as Augeri would still be working in retail. Both had turned their backs on the music business prior to being discovered or in Augeri's case re-discovered.

Actually, events in the band's history were considered out of chronology. Steve Perry's band Alien Project was just about to be signed when the bass player was killed in a car accident and so he retreated home and worked with his stepdad mending turkey coops to pay the bills. Journey was about to be dropped from their label because their album sales were declining with each release and it was determined they needed a frontman to get them on the radio. Herbie heard the demos from the rep who was going to sign SP's band and decided Perry was the voice that was going to launch Journey - and he was right.

There is no doubt that Steve Perry brought the success to Journey and Neal stated so. It's what gave him the power to essentially take over the band and make most of the decisions. However, there is no way to know exactly how successful any of them would have been if they had not all been a part of Journey. No one can state unequivocally that SP would never have returned to music - he has a one in a billion voice and his mother was amazing and supportive of his dreams. But comparing what he was doing before he was in Journey, with the success of Neal and Jon in Bad English after gaining recognition from being in Journey, is pointless. Nothing any of the members have done solo or in other groups has had the same global impact as what they achieved together in Journey.

No one is denying how important Journey was in Steve Perry's career - he said so himself and thanked Herbie at the WoF ceremony for putting him in the band. But the band also knows how important Steve Perry was to Journey - they needed each other. Journey's Perry-era catalogue is an evergreen for a reason and it outsells everything Journey has done pre and post-Perry combined. There is something about Perry/Schon/Cain that came into its own and created magic at a point in time - for whatever reason, it was meant to be.

Consider this - despite 4 albums without him and the rerecords by their current lead singer, when you go to Journey's official website or even Neal's, it's Steve Perry's voice you hear representing the band - so why are we bothering to argue a point the band has already settled?

[Gideon]

Gideon, I think you said you were 17, right? Boy, you sure are acting like your age with the above dissertation and long tirade against someone’s opinion.

Seems to me you are the one using “revisionist history” to bolster your point of view. SP gave up the music biz to “mend chicken coops”?!? Do you honestly believe that had Journey not made the first contact, some other band would not have snatched him up?

Vladan expressed his preference and opinion. You are free to do the same. No need to pick apart and contradict his feelings.

Actually I think Gideon stated his case quite amicably and to be fair was pretty much right on the button regarding the band's history.

Opinions may differ and there are always two sides to any argument but facts are facts and pushing aside passionate feelings one way or the other still only leads to one conclusion and Gideon is spot on in his/her assessment.

And further more Journey did not want Perry in the band initially. Herbie Herbert practically strong-armed him in. There is every chance that he might well have gone unnoticed otherwise just as Augeri would still be working in retail. Both had turned their backs on the music business prior to being discovered or in Augeri's case re-discovered.

Thank you, sir.

I'm a dude, by the way.

[Gideon]

Actually, events in the band's history were considered out of chronology. Steve Perry's band Alien Project was just about to be signed when the bass player was killed in a car accident and so he retreated home and worked with his stepdad mending turkey coops to pay the bills.

Correct thus far.

Journey was about to be dropped from their label because their album sales were declining with each release and it was determined they needed a frontman to get them on the radio. Herbie heard the demos from the rep who was going to sign SP's band and decided Perry was the voice that was going to launch Journey - and he was right.

Here's where the problem begins. Feel at liberty to correct me if I have left out any important facts, but Herbie demanded that Journey throw in a frontman in order to survive in the musical climate, which was changing to a more commercial epoch. Robert Fleischman was called in to fill such a vacancy when Herbie listened to Perry and decided to oust Fleischman in order to put Perry in.

What that means is that Journey had already found a singer before Perry replaced Fleischman. While there is no question (at least in my opinion) that Perry is the more talented singer, neither Schon nor Gregg were impressed with Perry's vocals, calling him a "crooner" in comparison to Fleischman's Robert Plant-esque vocals. We don't know how successful Journey would have been with Fleischman, but it wasn't as if they were on their last leg and Perry was their only hope.

There is no doubt that Steve Perry brought the success to Journey and Neal stated so.

Right. No one denies this. The problem is the idea that Journey is simply a backdrop to the great Steve Perry. To quote Perry, Journey was "Neal's band." Not Perry's. Nor was Perry the only reason for their success.

It's what gave him the power to essentially take over the band and make most of the decisions.

Which, historically, have been disasterous. Perry guiding Journey into a more commercial atmosphere was genius. Perry dominating the band and ruling it like a tyrant was rather stupid. I never understood the bullshit justification for Perry's removal of Ross and Smith; they didn't write the music, so "creative differences" seems rather dumb. Not to mention the whole TBF fiasco.

However, there is no way to know exactly how successful any of them would have been if they had not all been a part of Journey.

It's a common fact that Perry "hung up" his rock and roll shoes. Anything's possible, but looking at it logically, Perry didn't have the desire to do it. He gave up and it's not as if promoters were scrambling over themselves to gain an audience with the Voice.

No one can state unequivocally that SP would never have returned to music - he has a one in a billion voice and his mother was amazing and supportive of his dreams.

Both of these are irrelevant. Arnel has a one in a billion voice and a supportive mother, and only just received his "success" at age 40. There are dozens upon dozens of people with enormous talent in the world who have yet to be discovered due to circumstance.

But comparing what he was doing before he was in Journey, with the success of Neal and Jon in Bad English after gaining recognition from being in Journey, is pointless.

A lot like comparing Perry's success with Street Talk relative to any incarnation of Journey, given that he released the album at the height of Journey's success.

Nothing any of the members have done solo or in other groups has had the same global impact as what they achieved together in Journey.

Bingo. You hit the nail on the head. The problem is that it seems like few people wish to acknowledge that.

No one is denying how important Journey was in Steve Perry's career - he said so himself and thanked Herbie at the WoF ceremony for putting him in the band.

You're right: in order to deny something, you have to talk about it. That little nugget of information tends to languish in the back of our minds.

But the band also knows how important Steve Perry was to Journey - they needed each other.

No.

Perry was instrumental to their success. That's a remarkable advantage. But Journey was required for Perry's career entirely. Only one party needed the other. Perry needed Journey.

Journey's Perry-era catalogue is an evergreen for a reason and it outsells everything Journey has done pre and post-Perry combined. There is something about Perry/Schon/Cain that came into its own and created magic at a point in time - for whatever reason, it was meant to be.

Correct.

Consider this - despite 4 albums without him and the rerecords by their current lead singer, when you go to Journey's official website or even Neal's, it's Steve Perry's voice you hear representing the band - so why are we bothering to argue a point the band has already settled?

Because it was never about "did Perry make Journey successful." It was about the ridiculous contention that Journey is somehow a tribute act to Perry. It's not the case. It's like a pizza pie being all about one slice. It's not.

[Melissa]

See, the thing is when they hired JSS to be their new lead singer, they led us to believe that Journey was going for a new direction. Sammy Hagar went on record as saying SA was essentially a SP-clone, that the J-boys are finally ridding themselves of the Great One's shadow. Some other people were comparing this to the Queen+Paul Rogers thing.

Then, poof, back to the (SP) legacy sound act.

Queen+Paul Rodgers sucked, coming from a fan of Free, BC, and of course Queen.

I don't care for Queen with PR either. I know I've said this a hundred times on this board, but I think JSS would have been a much better singer for that band.

Agreed! JSS is simply awesome with Queen's songs. If you don't have the JSS/Queen DVD and double live-cd, get them!
My fav:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7BMBPnlAHc

[SherriBerry]

Actually, events in the band's history were considered out of chronology. Steve Perry's band Alien Project was just about to be signed when the bass player was killed in a car accident and so he retreated home and worked with his stepdad mending turkey coops to pay the bills.

Correct thus far.

Journey was about to be dropped from their label because their album sales were declining with each release and it was determined they needed a frontman to get them on the radio. Herbie heard the demos from the rep who was going to sign SP's band and decided Perry was the voice that was going to launch Journey - and he was right.

Here's where the problem begins. Feel at liberty to correct me if I have left out any important facts, but Herbie demanded that Journey throw in a frontman in order to survive in the musical climate, which was changing to a more commercial epoch. Robert Fleischman was called in to fill such a vacancy when Herbie listened to Perry and decided to oust Fleischman in order to put Perry in.

Actually no, the label told them that without a frontman they wouldn't get on the radio and that was what they needed for album sales - otherwise they were going to be dropped.

What that means is that Journey had already found a singer before Perry replaced Fleischman. While there is no question (at least in my opinion) that Perry is the more talented singer, neither Schon nor Gregg were impressed with Perry's vocals, calling him a "crooner" in comparison to Fleischman's Robert Plant-esque vocals. We don't know how successful Journey would have been with Fleischman, but it wasn't as if they were on their last leg and Perry was their only hope.

Schon and Rolie were impressed with Perry's vocals, but that wasn't the sound they wanted for the band. They didn't want a singer at all - they were a jam band, but they wanted someone to "scream". Not the sound that was going to work for this band. And Herbie had already decided to get rid of Fleischman before they made the Infinity album because he was difficult to work with.

There is no doubt that Steve Perry brought the success to Journey and Neal stated so.

Right. No one denies this. The problem is the idea that Journey is simply a backdrop to the great Steve Perry. To quote Perry, Journey was "Neal's band." Not Perry's. Nor was Perry the only reason for their success.

I agree and I don't think that is what anyone is saying. He isn't the only reason - they may have done well with another great singer and Journey isn't the Steve Perry Band. But they created something great together and even the band hasn't let go of his sound and moved in a new direction. Journey began as Neal's band, but the focus moved to writing the songs around SP's vocals and not Neal's guitar sound, which is why it has been so difficult to find a new lead singer. Van Halen didn't have this problem because their songs were written around EVH's guitar.

It's what gave him the power to essentially take over the band and make most of the decisions.

Which, historically, have been disasterous. Perry guiding Journey into a more commercial atmosphere was genius. Perry dominating the band and ruling it like a tyrant was rather stupid. I never understood the bullshit justification for Perry's removal of Ross and Smith; they didn't write the music, so "creative differences" seems rather dumb. Not to mention the whole TBF fiasco.

Perry admitted he made a mistake in firing Ross and Smitty, but I wouldn't call TBF a fiasco. It was the only time they were nominated for a Grammy and it has some great songs. Smitty was fired due to differences over using a click track. I've never read why SP fired Ross.

However, there is no way to know exactly how successful any of them would have been if they had not all been a part of Journey.

It's a common fact that Perry "hung up" his rock and roll shoes. Anything's possible, but looking at it logically, Perry didn't have the desire to do it. He gave up and it's not as if promoters were scrambling over themselves to gain an audience with the Voice.

Before or after 1986? As I wrote, before he joined Journey he was mourning the sudden death of a friend and needed to work to pay the bills. After 1986, he said he was toast and took a complete break from the business for 7 years, but always went back. Even now he still works in the industry on other people's projects and even a hint of new Perry material sets off alarms across the internet.

No one can state unequivocally that SP would never have returned to music - he has a one in a billion voice and his mother was amazing and supportive of his dreams.

Both of these are irrelevant. Arnel has a one in a billion voice and a supportive mother, and only just received his "success" at age 40. There are dozens upon dozens of people with enormous talent in the world who have yet to be discovered due to circumstance.

Actually, I would not say that is true. Arnel has a great voice, but he mimics other great singers - Steve Perry, Jimi Jamison, etc. But his success now is singing in Journey because he sounds like Steve Perry.

You don't understand what I'm saying - that means it isn't likely he would have quit permanently and never try again to go after his dreams. He had the talent and the support - so saying it is fact he permanently "hung up his rock and roll shoes" is erroneous. There is no way to know what he might have done a year later.

But comparing what he was doing before he was in Journey, with the success of Neal and Jon in Bad English after gaining recognition from being in Journey, is pointless.

A lot like comparing Perry's success with Street Talk relative to any incarnation of Journey, given that he released the album at the height of Journey's success.

So did Neal if you want a comparison of solo success. He released two at the height of Journey's success.

Nothing any of the members have done solo or in other groups has had the same global impact as what they achieved together in Journey.

Bingo. You hit the nail on the head. The problem is that it seems like few people wish to acknowledge that.

No one is denying how important Journey was in Steve Perry's career - he said so himself and thanked Herbie at the WoF ceremony for putting him in the band.

You're right: in order to deny something, you have to talk about it. That little nugget of information tends to languish in the back of our minds.

But the band also knows how important Steve Perry was to Journey - they needed each other.

No.

Perry was instrumental to their success. That's a remarkable advantage. But Journey was required for Perry's career entirely. Only one party needed the other. Perry needed Journey.

Absolutely false - just as there is no way to know how successful Journey may have been without Steve Perry, you cannot know what measure of success SP could have achieved without Journey either had he tried again. Complete conjecture.

Journey's Perry-era catalogue is an evergreen for a reason and it outsells everything Journey has done pre and post-Perry combined. There is something about Perry/Schon/Cain that came into its own and created magic at a point in time - for whatever reason, it was meant to be.

Correct.

Consider this - despite 4 albums without him and the rerecords by their current lead singer, when you go to Journey's official website or even Neal's, it's Steve Perry's voice you hear representing the band - so why are we bothering to argue a point the band has already settled?

Because it was never about "did Perry make Journey successful." It was about the ridiculous contention that Journey is somehow a tribute act to Perry. It's not the case. It's like a pizza pie being all about one slice. It's not.

I agree with that too! What is with calling Journey a "tribute band"? Neal and Ross are founding members, not to mention Journey was formed originally to promote Neal's amazing guitar sound. And Cain is still there, who was instrumental in creating many of their hits. I think the changing lineup of lead singers who sound like SP is the root of the commentary, but Journey is no tribute band. They are creating new music and trying to move forward. Calling them a tribute band seems to be a bit of a cheap shot.

[S2M]

I'm gonna say this for the last time. There are NO founding members of Journey. Only Original memebrs. There is absolutely no difference between Journey and The Backstreet boys. Herbie Herbert = Lou Pearlman. Herbie put Journey together. They were not a group slumming it in clubs waiting to be discovered. They were put together from existing bands. Journey is a fucking tribute band at this point.

[finalfight]

I'm gonna say this for the last time. There are NO founding members of Journey. Only Original memebrs. There is absolutely no difference between Journey and The Backstreet boys. Herbie Herbert = Lou Pearlman. Herbie put Journey together. They were not a group slumming it in clubs waiting to be discovered. They were put together from existing bands. Journey is a fucking tribute band at this point.

What? Double H like snorting coke off the backs of underage boys too?

[Gideon]

Journey is a fucking tribute band at this point.

No.

Sherriberry, we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

[SherriBerry]

Journey is a fucking tribute band at this point.

No.

Sherriberry, we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

Whoa - that quote is from StocktonMalone not me!! I'm the one who said calling the current Journey
a tribute band seemed like a cheap shot.

[SherriBerry]

I'm gonna say this for the last time. There are NO founding members of Journey. Only Original memebrs. There is absolutely no difference between Journey and The Backstreet boys. Herbie Herbert = Lou Pearlman. Herbie put Journey together. They were not a group slumming it in clubs waiting to be discovered. They were put together from existing bands. Journey is a fucking tribute band at this point.

Herbie already knew Neal and built Journey to showcase his axework and sound after Neal talked to him about wanting to put a band together - he didn't take an ad out in the paper for a bunch of unknowns to see who would show up. There is a big bloody difference between Journey and The Backstreet Boys.

Basically you are saying that if Neal had called his former bandmate Gregg to put the band together and they had chosen their other bandmates and then gotten Herbie to manage, they would be founding members. But because Herbie did that work they are only original members. What a crock.

[Rick]

I'm gonna say this for the last time. There are NO founding members of Journey. Only Original memebrs. There is absolutely no difference between Journey and The Backstreet boys. Herbie Herbert = Lou Pearlman. Herbie put Journey together. They were not a group slumming it in clubs waiting to be discovered. They were put together from existing bands. Journey is a fucking tribute band at this point.

Herbie already knew Neal and built Journey to showcase his axework and sound after Neal talked to him about wanting to put a band together - he didn't take an ad out in the paper for a bunch of unknowns to see who would show up. There is a big bloody difference between Journey and The Backstreet Boys.

Basically you are saying that if Neal had called his former bandmate Gregg to put the band together and they had chosen their other bandmates and then gotten Herbie to manage, they would be founding members. But because Herbie did that work they are only original members. What a crock.

Agreed. StM, you're full of shit.