President Barack Obama - Term 1 and 2 Thread

General Intelligent Discussion & One Thread About That Buttknuckle

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Postby conversationpc » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:57 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:So you heard one sentence relating to corporate corruption out of what?
A THREE hour show on FIVE days a week.


I've heard him say things like this several times. The examples I've cited were just from the last week or so. The fact that you want to ignore it shows what an idealogical zombie you are. In your mind, if you're not constantly attacking corporations, you MUST be a corporate shill. Why, you know it's your patriotic duty to attack all big companies, don't you? :lol:

On the whole, Beck is a bought and paid for shill.


I love the fact that you're just so torn up over Beck's success. It's really quite entertaining.

Next you'll be telling me he mailed those bulk shipments of plastic bags to San Francisco because he is secretly an environmentalist. :roll:


That was hilarious.

Blah, blah, blah.
I'll let this do the talking.
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colber ... om-the-gut


Boy, that does a whole lot of talking. Ooh, a comedy bit from a semi-serious comedian. Colbert is hilarious, though. :lol:
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Postby 7 Wishes » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:15 am

Eric wrote:
Trickle up doesn't work.....


No. That trickle-DOWN does not work, nor has never worked, has been proven beyond refute.

This stimulus bill, while far from perfect, is the only way we'll get out of the mess Bush got us into. You have to invest capital into markets - not grant money to banks to pay down bad debt they should have never incurred - when you're facing the worst recession since the Great Depression.

And by the way, Republicans have presided over 9 of the 11 recessions since industrialization.
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Postby Rick » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:16 am

7 Wishes wrote:
Eric wrote:
Trickle up doesn't work.....


No. That trickle-DOWN does not work, nor has never worked, has been proven beyond refute.

This stimulus bill, while far from perfect, is the only way we'll get out of the mess Bush got us into. You have to invest capital into markets - not grant money to banks to pay down bad debt they should have never incurred - when you're facing the worst recession since the Great Depression.

And by the way, Republicans have presided over 9 of the 11 recessions since industrialization.


That's because Republicans suck. :lol:
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Postby bluejeangirl76 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:17 am

Rick wrote:
7 Wishes wrote:
Eric wrote:
Trickle up doesn't work.....


No. That trickle-DOWN does not work, nor has never worked, has been proven beyond refute.

This stimulus bill, while far from perfect, is the only way we'll get out of the mess Bush got us into. You have to invest capital into markets - not grant money to banks to pay down bad debt they should have never incurred - when you're facing the worst recession since the Great Depression.

And by the way, Republicans have presided over 9 of the 11 recessions since industrialization.


That's because Republicans suck. :lol:


You must be in a feisty mood this evening Rick. :lol:
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Postby Rick » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:19 am

bluejeangirl76 wrote:
Rick wrote:
7 Wishes wrote:
Eric wrote:
Trickle up doesn't work.....


No. That trickle-DOWN does not work, nor has never worked, has been proven beyond refute.

This stimulus bill, while far from perfect, is the only way we'll get out of the mess Bush got us into. You have to invest capital into markets - not grant money to banks to pay down bad debt they should have never incurred - when you're facing the worst recession since the Great Depression.

And by the way, Republicans have presided over 9 of the 11 recessions since industrialization.


That's because Republicans suck. :lol:


You must be in a feisty mood this evening Rick. :lol:


Stay tuned. :twisted:
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Postby conversationpc » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:13 pm

7 Wishes wrote:And by the way, Republicans have presided over 9 of the 11 recessions since industrialization.


You brought this up in that marathon election thread. It was wrong then. It's wrong now. The only difference is that you're changing the numbers this time.

Your post...
http://forums.melodicrock.com/phpBB/vie ... on#4200298

...and my response...
http://forums.melodicrock.com/phpBB/vie ... start=4620

Where do you get your numbers anyway...Is it some random political comment generating engine? :lol:
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Postby 7 Wishes » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:14 pm

There aren't any proverbial guns pointed at the CFO's of banks to loan ANY capital to anyone.
But around town, it was well known...when they got home at night
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Postby conversationpc » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:21 pm

7 Wishes wrote:There aren't any proverbial guns pointed at the CFO's of banks to loan ANY capital to anyone.


That's a pretty naive statement, don't you think?
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Postby 7 Wishes » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:27 pm

Had there been, then all the mom-and-pop business operations your right-wing heroes prattle on and on about would have received the capital injection they required to stay in business; now they have been forced to lay people off or shut their doors.

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING other than Bush's horrendous fiscal policy is responsible for this.
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Postby conversationpc » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:31 pm

7 Wishes wrote:Nothing, and I mean NOTHING other than Bush's horrendous fiscal policy is responsible for this.


...and Democratic politicians like Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, etc, etc., are just as responsible. Only an idiot doesn't realize that both sides played a huge role in this.
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Postby 7 Wishes » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:34 pm

Spending trillions of dollars on a completely unnecessary war in Iraq has nothing to do with the collapse of the housing market, for which both parties bear responsibility.
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Postby Lula » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:30 am

Fact Finder wrote:
Fast-forward to 1995 and the Clinton administration, when strict enforcement of this law became a priority. Under the direction of then-Attorney General Janet Reno, federal regulators began using the act to combat “red-lining,” a practice by which banks loaned money to some communities but not to others, based on economic status. “No loan is exempt, no bank is immune,” warned then-Attorney General Janet Reno. “For those who thumb their nose at us, I promise vigorous enforcement.” The Clinton-Reno threat of “vigorous enforcement” pushed banks to make the now infamous loans that many blame for the current meltdown. In other words, banks were forced to make loans to people who shouldn’t have been getting mortgage loans in order to not get in trouble with regulators. This threat combined with the government backing of Fannie and Freddie set the stage for the current uncertainty, because the banks could just sell the loans off to Fannie or Freddie, who could buy them with little regard for negative financial outcomes.


so the law had already been on the books and the attorney general enforces it, shame!! the bs was intensified 10 fold by the bush admin.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:49 am

Fact Finder wrote:
7 Wishes wrote:There aren't any proverbial guns pointed at the CFO's of banks to loan ANY capital to anyone.



Denial is not just a river in Egypt..

Fast-forward to 1995 and the Clinton administration, when strict enforcement of this law became a priority. Under the direction of then-Attorney General Janet Reno, federal regulators began using the act to combat “red-lining,” a practice by which banks loaned money to some communities but not to others, based on economic status. “No loan is exempt, no bank is immune,” warned then-Attorney General Janet Reno. “For those who thumb their nose at us, I promise vigorous enforcement.” The Clinton-Reno threat of “vigorous enforcement” pushed banks to make the now infamous loans that many blame for the current meltdown. In other words, banks were forced to make loans to people who shouldn’t have been getting mortgage loans in order to not get in trouble with regulators. This threat combined with the government backing of Fannie and Freddie set the stage for the current uncertainty, because the banks could just sell the loans off to Fannie or Freddie, who could buy them with little regard for negative financial outcomes.


Over 80% of the banks that doled out subprime loans were private mortgage firms not even subject to the CRA (which only applies to depository instututions).
This has been debunked and then some.
It also omits the culpability of banks engaging in credit default swaps, which wasn't mandated by the gov't.

Many of the banking CEOS have been dragged before Congress.
If they pointed a finger at the CRA I'd be greatly interested to read about it.
Until then, this seems like more one-dimensional scapegoating by the right as usual.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:02 am

Fact Finder wrote:Who said this?

Our housing crisis was born of eroding home values, but also of the erosion of our common values. It was brought about by big banks that traded in risky mortgages in return for profits that were literally too good to be true; by lenders who knowingly took advantage of homebuyers; by homebuyers who knowingly borrowed too much from lenders; by speculators who gambled on rising prices; and by leaders in our nation’s capital who failed to act amidst a deepening crisis.

So solving this crisis will require more than resources – it will require all of us to take responsibility. Government must take responsibility for setting rules of the road that are fair and fairly enforced. Banks and lenders must be held accountable for ending the practices that got us into this crisis in the first place. Individuals must take responsibility for their own actions. And all of us must learn to live within our means again.



Call me a cockeyed optimist, but I don't think President Obama was singling Barney Frank out of all 535 members of Congress when he said that....
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Postby Eric » Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:39 am

7 Wishes wrote:
Eric wrote:
Trickle up doesn't work.....


No. That trickle-DOWN does not work, nor has never worked, has been proven beyond refute.

This stimulus bill, while far from perfect, is the only way we'll get out of the mess Bush got us into. You have to invest capital into markets - not grant money to banks to pay down bad debt they should have never incurred - when you're facing the worst recession since the Great Depression.

And by the way, Republicans have presided over 9 of the 11 recessions since industrialization.


1982 - 2007 was the greatest economic period in the history of civilization. Bush didn't cry racism to allow people who couldn't afford homes to buy them. Get a clue!
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Postby Eric » Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:41 am

I love how this clown-shoe President and his administration of crooks and loons keep talking negatively about the country......Wall St. has reacted just swell to this anti-American attitude.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:55 am

Eric wrote:
1982 - 2007 was the greatest economic period in the history of civilization. Bush didn't cry racism to allow people who couldn't afford homes to buy them. Get a clue!


Actually, while its roots date back to Carter, the "home ownership society" was a HUGE policy initiative for the Bush administration.
Quoting Bush's previous Treasury Secretary John Snow:

"The Bush administration took a lot of pride that homeownership had reached historic highs,” “But what we forgot in the process was that it has to be done in the context of people being able to afford their house. We now realize there was a high cost.”

There is a sulfuric rung in hell reserved especially for lying pigs like you.

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Postby hoagiepete » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:18 am

how much of this problem is due to people buying houses that couldn't afford it versus people buy homes they really couldn't afford?

Did that just make sense?

I have no idea what portion of the problem this is, but I see a lot of folks in mansions that are just starting their careers. Assuming they were sinking everything bit of their paycheck into their mortgage, I would have expected to see bean bag chairs and tv trays inside, but the furnishings are as nice the home. I don't know how they do it. I guess they aren't.

Anyone have a breakdown of the failures? Prices of the homes?

I sympathize with those that have lost jobs and are struggling to pay their mortgage. I resent, however, having to bail out the ones that overbought with an adjustable rate, nothing down, etc.
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Postby Eric » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:19 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Eric wrote:
1982 - 2007 was the greatest economic period in the history of civilization. Bush didn't cry racism to allow people who couldn't afford homes to buy them. Get a clue!


Actually, while its roots date back to Carter, the "home ownership society" was a HUGE policy initiative for the Bush administration.
Quoting Bush's previous Treasury Secretary John Snow:

"The Bush administration took a lot of pride that homeownership had reached historic highs,” “But what we forgot in the process was that it has to be done in the context of people being able to afford their house. We now realize there was a high cost.”

There is a sulfuric rung in hell reserved especially for lying pigs like you.

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You are a spinning ****.
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Postby AlteredDNA » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:25 am

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/P ... AF622F9953

The Foreclosure Five

By Alan Reynolds
New York Post | 2/23/2009

When President Obama discusses his $275 billion mortgage bailout, he talks as if it was a national problem, caused by a national decline in home prices. "We must stem the spread of foreclosures and falling home values for all Americans," he says. But there is no national market for homes and no national price for homes. Instead, most of the United States will pay for the folly of few.

The beneficiaries of taxpayer charity will be highly concentrated in just five states - California, Nevada, Arizona, Florida and Michigan. That is not because the subsidized homeowners are poor (Californians with $700,000 mortgages are not poor), but because they took on too much debt, often by refinancing in risky ways to "cash out" thousands more than the original loan. Nearly all subprime loans were for refinancing, not buying a home.

It turns out that the five states with by far the highest foreclosure rates have some things in common with each other, but very little in common with most other states.

I studied the latest available figures for state foreclosure rates, changes in home prices over one and five years, existing home sales, the percentage of mortgages that are underwater, and unemployment. Then I compared figures for the five most foreclosure-prone states with New York and also with the 25th-ranking (median) state.

One out of 76 homes in Nevada went into foreclosure in January, for example, compared with one out of 173 in California, with Arizona and Florida close behind. In New York, by contrast, only 1 out of 2,271 homes went into foreclosure.

Nationwide, foreclosures fell 10% in January, to one out of every 466 homes. But that is a "mean" average dominated by places like California and Florida. In the median state with the 25th highest foreclosure rate, by contrast, only one out of 949 homes was in foreclosure - just one-tenth of 1%. Foreclosure rates were even lower in 25 other states. In Vermont, foreclosures amounted to just one out of 51,906 homes. Foreclosure can be a personal crisis, but it is not a national crisis.

Now consider the change in home prices between the third quarters of 2007 and 2008, using the OFHEO price index - the only measure available by state. Like most of the new mortgage-relief plan, the OFHEO index covers mortgages that qualified for Fannie and Freddie financing. It excludes jumbo mortgages larger than $729,750 in high-cost areas like New York City.

As of the third quarter of 2008, OFHEO home prices were still higher than a year before in 18 states, and down less than 2% in a dozen others. Double-digit declines in home prices were confined to just four states - surprise, every one of the Foreclosure Five except Michigan.

Even though California home prices fell 20.8% over the year ending in the fall of 2008, however, they were still 50% higher than they were just five years ago. In Florida and Nevada too, the bust in home prices obviously followed a speculative boom. Back in April 6, 2008, a New York Times graph showed that default rates on only the riskiest subprime mortgages had already reached 21% in Merced and Stockton, California, and ranged from 19% to 24% in Fort Myers and Naples, Florida.

So what's happening now? By looking at sales, you can see the free market is working very well. Sales of existing homes over the past year have soared in four states where home prices fell the most. Reducing the inventory of unsold homes, foreclosed or not, makes it easier to sell remaining homes and thereby works to arrest falling home prices. Falling home prices are not the problem, they're the solution.

Obama is particularly interested in mortgages that are underwater - that is, larger than the value of the home. But again, this varies enormously by state. The state with the tenth highest percentage of underwater mortgages, Texas, has the same 16.5% underwater as the so-called national average. The other 40 states have a below-average percentage of homes that are worth less than their mortgages, which means the mean average is not at all typical of most states.

A similar report from First American Core Logic reports that only 4.4% of New York mortgages are underwater, not even a tenth as many as in Nevada.

Looking at the Foreclosure Five, you find another consistency - unemployment rates far above the national average (half the states were below 5.9% in December).

The exception is Arizona, where unemployment is a more reasonable 6.9%. Stephen Miller of the University of Nevada and Rangan Gupta of the University of Pretoria explained the apparent anomaly by explaining that migration and the market for second homes make Phoenix housing dependent on economic conditions in Los Angeles and Las Vegas. Miller and Gupta found that "Los Angeles housing prices cause housing prices in Las Vegas (directly) and Phoenix (indirectly). In addition, Las Vegas housing prices cause housing prices in Phoenix" to rise or fall in step.

Boosting the Obama team's selective mortgage subsidies, Mark Zandi of Moody's Economy.com recently told NBC, "either you can help your neighbor, and help them so they can stay in their home. Or don't help them, and they'll lose their home, and it will cost you money, because . . . your home will have just dropped in value." On the contrary, federal subsidies for over-indebted homeowners will not often involve helping "neighbors" but rather those who live thousands of miles away, mainly in just five states.

In reality, the "Homeowner Affordability and Stability Plan" compels taxpayers in most states to help those in just a few. Aside from Michigan's unique dependence on autos, the other four states' problems are already being solved the old-fashioned way: If something becomes too expensive, cut the price. Or move.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Reynolds is a senior fellow with the Cato Institute and the author of "Income and Wealth" (Greenwood Press, 2006).
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Postby Eric » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:09 am

Why couldn't we just offer anyone in danger of foreclosure the option of a "lifetime mortgage"....whereby whatever number of years they have left would be doubled. The Financial Institutions/Government would get more interest back and the folks could keep their home. In addition, if the homeowner died before the mortgage was paid of, which is likely, the financial institution/government would then own the home.
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Postby S2M » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:10 am

Eric wrote:Why couldn't we just offer anyone in danger of foreclosure the option of a "lifetime mortgage"....whereby whatever number of years they have left would be doubled. The Financial Institutions/Government would get more interest back and the folks could keep their home. In addition, if the homeowner died before the mortgage was paid of, which is likely, the financial institution/government would then own the home.


This is going to cause alot of people to foreclose on purpose - just to be bailed out......
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Postby Eric » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:45 am

StocktontoMalone wrote:
Eric wrote:Why couldn't we just offer anyone in danger of foreclosure the option of a "lifetime mortgage"....whereby whatever number of years they have left would be doubled. The Financial Institutions/Government would get more interest back and the folks could keep their home. In addition, if the homeowner died before the mortgage was paid of, which is likely, the financial institution/government would then own the home.


This is going to cause a lot of people to foreclose on purpose - just to be bailed out......


What if it were a 6 month scenario? I know this is probably a dumb idea, but I just haven't heard it proposed. It seems fair because it penalizes YET allows folks to stay in their house if they want.

I have to say, if I lost my job, (and I am slower than I was last year at this time) I couldn't afford to keep my houses for more than a couple of months...maybe till the end of the year if I took out of retirement. I would hate to lose my houses, but I would try to sell them immediately though. I don't see how moving into an apartment would make me less of a person, or would be unfair. I wouldn't be HOMEless I'd be HOUSEless.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:06 am

Eric wrote:
The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Eric wrote:
1982 - 2007 was the greatest economic period in the history of civilization. Bush didn't cry racism to allow people who couldn't afford homes to buy them. Get a clue!


Actually, while its roots date back to Carter, the "home ownership society" was a HUGE policy initiative for the Bush administration.
Quoting Bush's previous Treasury Secretary John Snow:

"The Bush administration took a lot of pride that homeownership had reached historic highs,” “But what we forgot in the process was that it has to be done in the context of people being able to afford their house. We now realize there was a high cost.”

There is a sulfuric rung in hell reserved especially for lying pigs like you.

Image


You are a spinning ****.


No facts. Typical.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:47 am

Fact Finder wrote:The Bush Admin and Congress had hearings to try and fix Fannie and Freddy but Frank and Dodd kept telling us everything was fine at F/F.


Up to this point, I am the only person in this thread who has given credit to both Dems, Repubs, and even Bush, for attempting to reform the two mortgage giants at one point or another.
Anyone who wants to paint this failure as being the exclusive domain of one party is an opportunistic hack.
That said, Fannie and Freddie didn't make subprime loans, only bought them, and from my understanding, came late to the subprime party.
As a point of fact, when Lehman Bros. CEO was recently asked about Fannie and Freddie's role in this mess he responded: "de minimus."

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/bar ... -06_2.html

Fact Finder wrote:I posted the videos that showed this in the election thread. It is stunning. If I can find it I'll post it here again.


Go for it.
But Frank and Dodds' obstructionism is limited to a two year timeframe.
Did the eight years of Republican majority not exist?
During that time, Frank co-authored a bipartisan bill with Repub Frank Oxley that would've reigned in Freddie and Fannie, and the bill never saw the light of day.

Even more damaging than subprime loans were credit default swaps.
Let me guess - did Frank and the evil liberals force Bear Sterns to deal in those too?
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Postby 7 Wishes » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:15 pm

Again - mostly irrelevant, since for six years there was effectively a 50-50 tie in the Senate and a Republican majority in the House.
But around town, it was well known...when they got home at night
Their fat and psychopathic wives
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:39 pm

Fact Finder wrote:Here's the Democrats obstructing attempts to clean up Fannie/Freddie...Note Franks says "There is nothing wrong with Fannie/Freddie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi ... Num=256847


This was back when the Repubs had a MAJORITY.
The Repubs could've pushed through any legislation they pleased - and more often than not, did.
As noted before, they even tabled a bi-partisan bill that would've reigned in Fannie and Freddie.
In all, Fannie and Freddie contributed very little to the economic clusterfuck, so the point is moot.

What really gets me, is the notion that unregulated investment firms and independent mortgage brokers acting piggish is somehow a flight of Bolshevik fantasy.
What happened to that Teddy Roosevelt Republican fighting spirit against the malefactors of great wealth?
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:44 pm

Fact Finder wrote:Clinton administration admitting their policy of "BANK AFFIRMATIVE ACTION". Secretary Cuomo admits they forced banks to make BAD LOANS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivmL-lXN ... Num=256847


of course some of this is from Fox so I'm ready to catch hell for that... :roll:


Who cares?
Federal Reserve Board Data showed that over 80% of the subprime loans were made by private institutions not even subject to the CRA.
Who knew ACORN could bring the titans of Wall Street to their knees? :roll:
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:18 am

Fact Finder wrote:
Who cares?


You're a laugh a minute. Listen to Cuomo in that clip, Listen to Obama. "In theory it was a good plan."

Your theory was wrong O. Case closed. The Pubbies big fault was not screaming at the top of their lungs, louder and louder. Of course if they had screamed, the Dems would have just screamed back "racists". We know how your side plays that game.


If that were truly the case, the CEO's would waste no time deflecting the blame off themselves, and pegging it onto Freddie, Fannie. and the CRA.
They haven't.
In fact, Lehman Bros. CEO just said their involvement was minimal
Even more conspicuous by its absence, is your pussyfooting around the topic of credit default swaps - (universally acknowledged to be far more devastating than any subprime loans) - which had nothing to do with gov't intervention, Barney Frank, the abortion lobby, Bill Ayers, or whatever liberal boogeyman you have cued up for the next free market meltdown.

And as a point of fact, defaults on regulated CRA lending were less than other lending (according to economist Joseph Stiglitz and others).
That's because it came attached with federal oversight.
The investment firms and independent mortgage brokers, which made the majority of toxic subprime loans, were allowed to run roughshod.
"I think we should all sue this women for depriving us of our God given right to go down with a clear mind, and good thoughts." - Stu, Consumate Pussy Eater
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Postby Eric » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:33 am

7 Wishes wrote:Spending trillions of dollars on a completely unnecessary war in Iraq has nothing to do with the collapse of the housing market, for which both parties bear responsibility.


Show me 'trillions".

Also..post 9-11, it may have been a necessary war, especially with the results.
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