Journey videos from osaka

[brywool]

If they are gonna tune down I'd just as soon have JSS in there......I would prefer him anyway, but just sayin.

Not me.

[Gideon]

If they are gonna tune down I'd just as soon have JSS in there......I would prefer him anyway, but just sayin.

Not me.

Seconded.

[brywool]

I don't know if it's a sign of "wear 'n tear." It may be a preemptive restriction so Arnel's voice doesn't burn out. But if it is, then Journey's catalogue must be insanely difficult. Shame most vocal enthusiasts are total retards and don't recognize it.

I agree with you. I DO think it's a preventative measure because I've not heard Arnel struggling much at all. DSB on the Superbowl had more to do with the accent than struggling with hitting the notes.

[Gideon]

I don't know if it's a sign of "wear 'n tear." It may be a preemptive restriction so Arnel's voice doesn't burn out. But if it is, then Journey's catalogue must be insanely difficult. Shame most vocal enthusiasts are total retards and don't recognize it.

I agree with you. I DO think it's a preventative measure because I've not heard Arnel struggling much at all. DSB on the Superbowl had more to do with the accent than struggling with hitting the notes.

Creative intelligence notwithstanding, I think all of Journey's members -- including the vocalists -- have this latent stupidity when it comes to realizing limitations. Even the Voice, as SJ is fond of pointing out, slipped into retard-phase and scheduled, like, six concerts in a row and had to bail on a lot of them. These guys either have God-complexes, refusing to acknowledge their limitations, or victims of naivete. It's high time management and the band recognize that this catalogue is top tier in terms of difficulty and adjust accordingly. There's no reason for them to not carry on, but they have to reassess their situation.

[Jubilee]

I don't know if it's a sign of "wear 'n tear." It may be a preemptive restriction so Arnel's voice doesn't burn out. But if it is, then Journey's catalogue must be insanely difficult. Shame most vocal enthusiasts are total retards and don't recognize it.

I agree with you. I DO think it's a preventative measure because I've not heard Arnel struggling much at all. DSB on the Superbowl had more to do with the accent than struggling with hitting the notes.

Creative intelligence notwithstanding, I think all of Journey's members -- including the vocalists -- have this latent stupidity when it comes to realizing limitations. Even the Voice, as SJ is fond of pointing out, slipped into retard-phase and scheduled, like, six concerts in a row and had to bail on a lot of them. These guys either have God-complexes, refusing to acknowledge their limitations, or victims of naivete. It's high time management and the band recognize that this catalogue is top tier in terms of difficulty and adjust accordingly. There's no reason for them to not carry on, but they have to reassess their situation.

HA! That right there is the problem. I get the sense that a great deal of this can be layed at the feet of management. Understandably, it takes a certain number of shows to make a tour profitable. The problem is finding the intersection of how many shows you need to do to turn a profit versus how many shows a singer can perform (especially Journey's catalogue) without killing the singer, and, thus, killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

[Gideon]

I don't know if it's a sign of "wear 'n tear." It may be a preemptive restriction so Arnel's voice doesn't burn out. But if it is, then Journey's catalogue must be insanely difficult. Shame most vocal enthusiasts are total retards and don't recognize it.

I agree with you. I DO think it's a preventative measure because I've not heard Arnel struggling much at all. DSB on the Superbowl had more to do with the accent than struggling with hitting the notes.

Creative intelligence notwithstanding, I think all of Journey's members -- including the vocalists -- have this latent stupidity when it comes to realizing limitations. Even the Voice, as SJ is fond of pointing out, slipped into retard-phase and scheduled, like, six concerts in a row and had to bail on a lot of them. These guys either have God-complexes, refusing to acknowledge their limitations, or victims of naivete. It's high time management and the band recognize that this catalogue is top tier in terms of difficulty and adjust accordingly. There's no reason for them to not carry on, but they have to reassess their situation.

.

HA! That right there is the problem. I get the sense that a great deal of this can be layed at the feet of management. Understandably, it takes a certain number of shows to make a tour profitable. The problem is finding the intersection of how many shows you need to do to turn a profit versus how many shows a singer can perform (especially Journey's catalogue) without killing the singer, and, thus, killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

Indeed. I suspect we could all manage this band better than the professionals.

[Eric]

If they are gonna tune down I'd just as soon have JSS in there......I would prefer him anyway, but just sayin.

Not me.

Seconded.

Thats fine of course.....but why talk about the legacy and make 2 singer changes chasing it and then tune down anyway?

[Don]

If they are gonna tune down I'd just as soon have JSS in there......I would prefer him anyway, but just sayin.

Not me.

Seconded.

Thats fine of course.....but why talk about the legacy and make 2 singer changes chasing it and then tune down anyway?

Seconded.

[Gideon]

If they are gonna tune down I'd just as soon have JSS in there......I would prefer him anyway, but just sayin.

Not me.

Seconded.

Thats fine of course.....but why talk about the legacy and make 2 singer changes chasing it and then tune down anyway?

Well, personally, I've always translated "the legacy sound" to be a rock band dominated by melodies and led by a tenor voice. JSS, while a great vocalist, is not a tenor. He knocked certain Journey songs out of the ballpark, but I personally found that his voice was not the proper selection. I know that people are fond of mentioning the DLR and Sammy Hagar respective regimes in Van Halen, but that's a fallacious comparison. Journey, unlike Van Halen, is largely popular through the vocals; DLR was no Steve Perry nor was he a truly gifted vocalist. Thus when he was replaced by Hagar, it could work. But Journey has a certain sound, a certain legacy, and certain requirements to sustain both. That they may have taken the songs down a little doesn't mean that it's now in JSS's range. The songs remain in a high tone sung by a capable tenor; they're just not in Steve Perry's super-class countertenor range anymore.

[brywool]

If they are gonna tune down I'd just as soon have JSS in there......I would prefer him anyway, but just sayin.

Not me.

Seconded.

Thats fine of course.....but why talk about the legacy and make 2 singer changes chasing it and then tune down anyway?

They DID tune down with Jeff for a show. He said it made the tunes harder to sing.
With Augeri, sounds like they went to tape instead of the other option. Augeri had NO voice at that point though, so tuning down wouldn't have helped. had they done it before the problem got bad, it may have.

[Don]

I think JSS did very well on the ROR stuff. A lot of people here profess love for that LP, why not add more songs from it into the setlist? Aren't the songs a little easier to sing?

[brywool]

I think JSS did very well on the ROR stuff. A lot of people here profess love for that LP, why not add more songs from it into the setlist? Aren't the songs a little easier to sing?

ROR stuff is not nearly as hard to sing as the rest.

[PianoMan1986]

I'm not criticizing on this, just pointing it out, ok?

If you take the SW clip from Osaka and then quick jump to the footage taken from their Chicago show, I think you'll hear a difference, although I could be wrong and if I am, someone please call me on it.

Are you talking about keys? I didn't hear a difference when comparing to other clips. Without a guitar in my hand, I can't be sure, but it sounded the same to me.

SW is a half step down (Eb instead of E since the bass chugs that most of the tune).

Anyway is a half step down as well (main fundamental here is Ab, not A; check that person's videos)

DSB is also a half step down.

So they're detuning, but since it's only a half step, it doesn't sound drastic. I was playing along with Captured earlier, so I know my bass is in tune.

Actually, isn't Anyway You Want It in G, so they would've put it in Gb?

[StyxCollector]

Thats fine of course.....but why talk about the legacy and make 2 singer changes chasing it and then tune down anyway?

They DID tune down with Jeff for a show. He said it made the tunes harder to sing.
With Augeri, sounds like they went to tape instead of the other option. Augeri had NO voice at that point though, so tuning down wouldn't have helped. had they done it before the problem got bad, it may have.

The only real response is "We'll never know."

Augeri - tape (glad his voice has recovered and he's singing again)
JSS - only detuned once, but everything else in original key
Pineda - already detuning what seems like everything a half step (and my guess is it's everything because the guitars and bass would be tuned to this, too; too much reshuffling playing)

Had they started with JSS this way, who knows what would have been. It may have STILL been the same result.

For whatever reason, Journey is doing it now. It doesn't sound bad to be honest, and it be more than a band choice; management I'm sure had a say. I think they may realize this is probably it in terms of a new singer change that people will accept (3 in 10+ years is not exactly a stellar track record), so they have to make it work.

[StyxCollector]

Actually, isn't Anyway You Want It in G, so they would've put it in Gb?

You're right ... my bad. Was up for about 36 hours.

[Liquid_Drummer]

I think JSS did very well on the ROR stuff. A lot of people here profess love for that LP, why not add more songs from it into the setlist? Aren't the songs a little easier to sing?

ROR stuff is not nearly as hard to sing as the rest.

Umm... I find it harder to sing ROR, Street Talk and Frontiers stuff than any of the earlier material. By this time Perry had forgone using finesse to get to some notes so instead he used power to get them. I dont have that power.

I can sing the shit out of Hopelessly in love and a lot of pre escape material but Separate Ways, Be Good to your self and stuff from that period..... Geesh.... Frontiers is where it gets hard for me and I think his harder approach didnt help him in the long run but FUCKING HELL he sounded awesome. The boot (not the studio version) of Dont tell me why your leaving.... That was live in the studio and it must have peeled the paint off the walls. If you listen at the end of that you can hear him say, " I only have one of those in me." He knew his limitations.

[PianoMan1986]

Actually, isn't Anyway You Want It in G, so they would've put it in Gb?

You're right ... my bad. Was up for about 36 hours.

No worries, just checking to see if maybe I've been playing it wrong

[mick]

Thats fine of course.....but why talk about the legacy and make 2 singer changes chasing it and then tune down anyway?

They DID tune down with Jeff for a show. He said it made the tunes harder to sing.
With Augeri, sounds like they went to tape instead of the other option. Augeri had NO voice at that point though, so tuning down wouldn't have helped. had they done it before the problem got bad, it may have.

The only real response is "We'll never know."

Augeri - tape (glad his voice has recovered and he's singing again)
JSS - only detuned once, but everything else in original key
Pineda - already detuning what seems like everything a half step (and my guess is it's everything because the guitars and bass would be tuned to this, too; too much reshuffling playing)

Had they started with JSS this way, who knows what would have been. It may have STILL been the same result.

For whatever reason, Journey is doing it now. It doesn't sound bad to be honest, and it be more than a band choice; management I'm sure had a say. I think they may realize this is probably it in terms of a new singer change that people will accept (3 in 10+ years is not exactly a stellar track record), so they have to make it work.

Hate to sound negative but, I don't think fans in the U.S. are going to like these songs being tuned down. I know half the people won't even notice but the other half will and I think it will create a backlash. I vote for less shows and that they take some time off, maybe write and record a new record. And then when they do come back to do a tour put a day in between dates for recovery. Just my two cents worth.

PS: Hey Rip let us know if they tune back up for Manilla and have a great time.

[JRNYFan]

Thats fine of course.....but why talk about the legacy and make 2 singer changes chasing it and then tune down anyway?

They DID tune down with Jeff for a show. He said it made the tunes harder to sing.
With Augeri, sounds like they went to tape instead of the other option. Augeri had NO voice at that point though, so tuning down wouldn't have helped. had they done it before the problem got bad, it may have.

The only real response is "We'll never know."

Augeri - tape (glad his voice has recovered and he's singing again)
JSS - only detuned once, but everything else in original key
Pineda - already detuning what seems like everything a half step (and my guess is it's everything because the guitars and bass would be tuned to this, too; too much reshuffling playing)

Had they started with JSS this way, who knows what would have been. It may have STILL been the same result.

For whatever reason, Journey is doing it now. It doesn't sound bad to be honest, and it be more than a band choice; management I'm sure had a say. I think they may realize this is probably it in terms of a new singer change that people will accept (3 in 10+ years is not exactly a stellar track record), so they have to make it work.

Hate to sound negative but, I don't think fans in the U.S. are going to like these songs being tuned down. I know half the people won't even notice but the other half will and I think it will create a backlash. I vote for less shows and that they take some time off, maybe write and record a new record. And then when they do come back to do a tour put a day in between dates for recovery. Just my two cents worth.
PS: Hey Rip let us know if they tune back up for Manilla and have a great time.

Van Halen did it on their last tour. I don't see why Journey can't.

[wednesday's child]

Thats fine of course.....but why talk about the legacy and make 2 singer changes chasing it and then tune down anyway?

They DID tune down with Jeff for a show. He said it made the tunes harder to sing.
With Augeri, sounds like they went to tape instead of the other option. Augeri had NO voice at that point though, so tuning down wouldn't have helped. had they done it before the problem got bad, it may have.

The only real response is "We'll never know."

Augeri - tape (glad his voice has recovered and he's singing again)
JSS - only detuned once, but everything else in original key
Pineda - already detuning what seems like everything a half step (and my guess is it's everything because the guitars and bass would be tuned to this, too; too much reshuffling playing)

Had they started with JSS this way, who knows what would have been. It may have STILL been the same result.

For whatever reason, Journey is doing it now. It doesn't sound bad to be honest, and it be more than a band choice; management I'm sure had a say. I think they may realize this is probably it in terms of a new singer change that people will accept (3 in 10+ years is not exactly a stellar track record), so they have to make it work.

Hate to sound negative but, I don't think fans in the U.S. are going to like these songs being tuned down. I know half the people won't even notice but the other half will and I think it will create a backlash. I vote for less shows and that they take some time off, maybe write and record a new record. And then when they do come back to do a tour put a day in between dates for recovery. Just my two cents worth.
PS: Hey Rip let us know if they tune back up for Manilla and have a great time.

Van Halen did it on their last tour. I don't see why Journey can't.

Because that means fewer dates to play and make money off of.
Many venues only offer a definite window of dates, and milking that window thoroughly
means playing 3 or 4 nights straight. Either Journey play fewer dates --which means less money,
or they downtune.

The latter doubtless displeases the purists who only accept downtuning when Perry is singing.

wech

[grimlocked]

To me, it's really not that bad to go half-step down. It may not have been AP's call. That might have been a necessary evil for a set-list as long as what they had in Japan.

Some rockers even go one octave lower (Ozzy). That's 12 half-steps

Also, I can't really say that AP is ducking the notes. I've heard him several times hitting higher notes compared to the same notes in the recordings (or scaling up 3rd or 5th an otherwise monotone sustain).

I think this may have something to do with some of our tendencies to expect too much from Arnel compared to what's acceptable from other front men. And that might also be psychologically understandable given that some of us think AP has something to prove.

I was viewing Queen DVDs recently and Freddy ducked a lot of notes in their concerts (even so, he's great). I'm not really comparing Freddy to AP as Freddy is just awesome but I feel sacrilegious to bring up the subject to my fellow Queen fans so I just shut up.

My point is that it seems acceptable if other people do it but for AP we seem to have a double-standard.

I also don't see a point in comparing AP and SP. For one, AP is 40+ now. I thought I've heard somewhere that he used to be able to sing CK's "Through the Fire".

[jestor92]

If they're worried about Arnel's voice, why don't they go out on tour with someone where they would only be performing about 15 songs a night? Why not break 1 song a night out from the first 3 albums and let Cain sing that song? Throw a 5 minute drum solo in there, Bring back Just The Same Way and Feeling That Way/Anytime, play a song or two from Augeri's era with Deen on vocals, play newer matierial. Allow Deen to continue singing Mother, Father and Still They Ride. Give Arnel a shorter tour of maybe 30 dates.

30 songs is about a 2-3 hour show, they've got flexibility to help Arnel if they wanted to, and also show play some deeper cuts to make the long time fans happy.

[brywool]

I was viewing Queen DVDs recently and Freddy ducked a lot of notes in their concerts (even so, he's great). I'm not really comparing Freddy to AP as Freddy is just awesome but I feel sacrilegious to bring up the subject to my fellow Queen fans so I just shut up.

YUP.

Freddie ducked a TON of notes live and had terrible live pitch.

[JRNYFan]

Thats fine of course.....but why talk about the legacy and make 2 singer changes chasing it and then tune down anyway?

They DID tune down with Jeff for a show. He said it made the tunes harder to sing.
With Augeri, sounds like they went to tape instead of the other option. Augeri had NO voice at that point though, so tuning down wouldn't have helped. had they done it before the problem got bad, it may have.

The only real response is "We'll never know."

Augeri - tape (glad his voice has recovered and he's singing again)
JSS - only detuned once, but everything else in original key
Pineda - already detuning what seems like everything a half step (and my guess is it's everything because the guitars and bass would be tuned to this, too; too much reshuffling playing)

Had they started with JSS this way, who knows what would have been. It may have STILL been the same result.

For whatever reason, Journey is doing it now. It doesn't sound bad to be honest, and it be more than a band choice; management I'm sure had a say. I think they may realize this is probably it in terms of a new singer change that people will accept (3 in 10+ years is not exactly a stellar track record), so they have to make it work.

Hate to sound negative but, I don't think fans in the U.S. are going to like these songs being tuned down. I know half the people won't even notice but the other half will and I think it will create a backlash. I vote for less shows and that they take some time off, maybe write and record a new record. And then when they do come back to do a tour put a day in between dates for recovery. Just my two cents worth.
PS: Hey Rip let us know if they tune back up for Manilla and have a great time.

Van Halen did it on their last tour. I don't see why Journey can't.

Because that means fewer dates to play and make money off of.
Many venues only offer a definite window of dates, and milking that window thoroughly
means playing 3 or 4 nights straight. Either Journey play fewer dates --which means less money,
or they downtune.

The latter doubtless displeases the purists who only accept downtuning when Perry is singing.

wech

Van Halen seemed to have no problem booking dates though and they went all over.

[brywool]

Thats fine of course.....but why talk about the legacy and make 2 singer changes chasing it and then tune down anyway?

They DID tune down with Jeff for a show. He said it made the tunes harder to sing.
With Augeri, sounds like they went to tape instead of the other option. Augeri had NO voice at that point though, so tuning down wouldn't have helped. had they done it before the problem got bad, it may have.

The only real response is "We'll never know."

Augeri - tape (glad his voice has recovered and he's singing again)
JSS - only detuned once, but everything else in original key
Pineda - already detuning what seems like everything a half step (and my guess is it's everything because the guitars and bass would be tuned to this, too; too much reshuffling playing)

Had they started with JSS this way, who knows what would have been. It may have STILL been the same result.

For whatever reason, Journey is doing it now. It doesn't sound bad to be honest, and it be more than a band choice; management I'm sure had a say. I think they may realize this is probably it in terms of a new singer change that people will accept (3 in 10+ years is not exactly a stellar track record), so they have to make it work.

Hate to sound negative but, I don't think fans in the U.S. are going to like these songs being tuned down. I know half the people won't even notice but the other half will and I think it will create a backlash. I vote for less shows and that they take some time off, maybe write and record a new record. And then when they do come back to do a tour put a day in between dates for recovery. Just my two cents worth.
PS: Hey Rip let us know if they tune back up for Manilla and have a great time.

Van Halen did it on their last tour. I don't see why Journey can't.

Because that means fewer dates to play and make money off of.
Many venues only offer a definite window of dates, and milking that window thoroughly
means playing 3 or 4 nights straight. Either Journey play fewer dates --which means less money,
or they downtune.

The latter doubtless displeases the purists who only accept downtuning when Perry is singing.

wech

Van Halen seemed to have no problem booking dates though and they went all over.

Maybe so, but VH's catalog is nothing like Journey's to sing, so maybe it was never a problem for them.

[grimlocked]

I was viewing Queen DVDs recently and Freddy ducked a lot of notes in their concerts (even so, he's great). I'm not really comparing Freddy to AP as Freddy is just awesome but I feel sacrilegious to bring up the subject to my fellow Queen fans so I just shut up.

YUP.

Freddie ducked a TON of notes live and had terrible live pitch.

My favorite was when Freddy sang "Love of My Life" live and instead of hitting the really high notes of "I still love you.ooohhhhh...", he simply said in narrative "I still love you" while looking at the audience. The crowd went nuts. But deep inside of me, i knew Freddy must have felt naughty for tricking the audience and making them feel good while at the same time ducking the really high notes. He's a genius. He is also really awesome in his adlibs and improvs (something that I wish AP would also improve in as time goes although I'm resigned to the fact that he's at a disadvantage with his non-native english).

[steveo777]

I'm holding off on assuming that these concerts have been tuned down, coming from someone's crappy vantage point with their cell phone. I'm sure we'll get more and better vids from Manila, then we'll see what's really happening. Anything else is just wag appraisal at this point.

[brywool]

Neh, they're definitely tuned down (said with guitar in hand)

[steveo777]

Neh, they're definitely tuned down (said with guitar in hand)

For three gigs back to back, this might make sense. Oh, I'm so late to this party. As long as that setlist was, they very well could be protecting Arnel's voice. I'm sure 3 days of it would be killer on anyone's vocal chords. PLUS, the real shining moment for Arnel is going to be the Manila gig and I'm certain they did all they could to make sure he is at his best tonight.

[Saint John]

[Umm... I find it harder to sing ROR, Street Talk and Frontiers stuff than any of the earlier material.

For sure. Perry at his/her best!