Who Fractured the Stone?

[Jubilee]

As we all know by now, the stone IS fractured. The question is: Who dunnit? Allowing for the fact that none of us really have the full story of what went on behind closed doors with Journey, who, in your opinion "Fractured the Stone"? Was it Perry when he went out on the FTLOSM tour & performed Journey songs without the rest of the band? Was it the band when they decided they could wait no longer for Perry to deal with his medical issues? Had the two parties simply reached an impasse where Perry, for his own personal reasons, could not move forward, and the band, for business purposes, simply could no longer stand still?

[Gideon]

This is going to catch a lot of hell and I haven't the time to engage in a competent debate at the moment, but I'll respond:

Perry.

Perry fractured the stone first in '86, shunting Valory and Smith off to the side for studio musicians and a drum machine because "he just had to have" this new musical direction (forgetting the fact that they were essentially yes-man and he, Cain, and Neal were the ones responsible for the actual movement and direction of the music). And Perry precipitated the fracture of the stone a second time in 1996. The fact that he would later get the reconstructive surgery is proof that he knew from the bottom of his heart that Cain and Neal were correct; he just took his jolly time waiting to have it done. Why would he if he knew it was inevitable? Not to mention the fact that they gave him over a year to decide and that he fucked up a potentially lucrative deal in Chalfant joining the band.

I'm sure you could ration out the blame in all parties, but history shows that Perry shoulders most of it.

[S2M]

As we all know by now, the stone IS fractured. The question is: Who dunnit? Allowing for the fact that none of us really have the full story of what went on behind closed doors with Journey, who, in your opinion "Fractured the Stone"? Was it Perry when he went out on the FTLOSM tour & performed Journey songs without the rest of the band? Was it the band when they decided they could wait no longer for Perry to deal with his medical issues? Had the two parties simply reached an impasse where Perry, for his own personal reasons, could not move forward, and the band, for business purposes, simply could no longer stand still?

Simply put.....Neal and the rest of the James Gang.....No reason not to wait for Perry to make a decision as to whether he will have surgery or not. No excuse. 2 years tops and they would have the world by the balls again. Sad.....really.

[Gideon]

As we all know by now, the stone IS fractured. The question is: Who dunnit? Allowing for the fact that none of us really have the full story of what went on behind closed doors with Journey, who, in your opinion "Fractured the Stone"? Was it Perry when he went out on the FTLOSM tour & performed Journey songs without the rest of the band? Was it the band when they decided they could wait no longer for Perry to deal with his medical issues? Had the two parties simply reached an impasse where Perry, for his own personal reasons, could not move forward, and the band, for business purposes, simply could no longer stand still?

Simply put.....Neal and the rest of the James Gang.....No reason not to wait for Perry to make a decision as to whether he will have surgery or not. No excuse. 2 years tops and they would have the world by the balls again. Sad.....really.

Disagree entirely. It was cool that we posted two separate opinions at the same time, though.

When I'm not getting my ass kicked by this research paper, I'll come back to debate this.

[S2M]

This is going to catch a lot of hell and I haven't the time to engage in a competent debate at the moment, but I'll respond:

Perry.

Perry fractured the stone first in '86, shunting Valory and Smith off to the side for studio musicians and a drum machine because "he just had to have" this new musical direction (forgetting the fact that they were essentially yes-man and he, Cain, and Neal were the ones responsible for the actual movement and direction of the music). And Perry precipitated the fracture of the stone a second time in 1996. The fact that he would later get the reconstructive surgery is proof that he knew from the bottom of his heart that Cain and Neal were correct; he just took his jolly time waiting to have it done. Why would he if he knew it was inevitable? Not to mention the fact that they gave him over a year to decide and that he fucked up a potentially lucrative deal in Chalfant joining the band.

I'm sure you could ration out the blame in all parties, but history shows that Perry shoulders most of it.

WRONG on so many levels Giddy....My father had artery blockage, and his doctor decided to try and handle it with medication FIRST, then when that didn't work - he had Angioplasty. THEN as a LAST resort had open heart surgery and a pacemaker.....You can't tell someone else what route to take with THEIR own body......

[Gideon]

This is going to catch a lot of hell and I haven't the time to engage in a competent debate at the moment, but I'll respond:

Perry.

Perry fractured the stone first in '86, shunting Valory and Smith off to the side for studio musicians and a drum machine because "he just had to have" this new musical direction (forgetting the fact that they were essentially yes-man and he, Cain, and Neal were the ones responsible for the actual movement and direction of the music). And Perry precipitated the fracture of the stone a second time in 1996. The fact that he would later get the reconstructive surgery is proof that he knew from the bottom of his heart that Cain and Neal were correct; he just took his jolly time waiting to have it done. Why would he if he knew it was inevitable? Not to mention the fact that they gave him over a year to decide and that he fucked up a potentially lucrative deal in Chalfant joining the band.

I'm sure you could ration out the blame in all parties, but history shows that Perry shoulders most of it.

WRONG on so many levels Giddy....My father had artery blockage, and his doctor decided to try and handle it with medication FIRST, then when that didn't work - he had Angioplasty. THEN as a LAST resort had open heart surgery and a pacemaker.....You can't tell someone else what route to take with THEIR own body......

The only way that this would be wrong is if Perry was told that there was an alternative to the surgery. From what I remember, that was not the case.

[Saint John]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

[Rhiannon]

I'd like to propose the idea that no one cracked the stone. No one got screwed over. That the transpired events are just a part of a natural course of action for a rock band. And anyone claiming to have been bent over by another party is just playing the victim card for attention or sympathy. (<---Which is NOT a reference to any one side in particular before anyone jumps to assumptions.)

[Arianddu]

This is going to catch a lot of hell and I haven't the time to engage in a competent debate at the moment, but I'll respond:

Perry.

Perry fractured the stone first in '86, shunting Valory and Smith off to the side for studio musicians and a drum machine because "he just had to have" this new musical direction (forgetting the fact that they were essentially yes-man and he, Cain, and Neal were the ones responsible for the actual movement and direction of the music). And Perry precipitated the fracture of the stone a second time in 1996. The fact that he would later get the reconstructive surgery is proof that he knew from the bottom of his heart that Cain and Neal were correct; he just took his jolly time waiting to have it done. Why would he if he knew it was inevitable? Not to mention the fact that they gave him over a year to decide and that he fucked up a potentially lucrative deal in Chalfant joining the band.

I'm sure you could ration out the blame in all parties, but history shows that Perry shoulders most of it.

WRONG on so many levels Giddy....My father had artery blockage, and his doctor decided to try and handle it with medication FIRST, then when that didn't work - he had Angioplasty. THEN as a LAST resort had open heart surgery and a pacemaker.....You can't tell someone else what route to take with THEIR own body......

The only way that this would be wrong is if Perry was told that there was an alternative to the surgery. From what I remember, that was not the case.

He has said that he went to half a dozen different doctors, and they all gave him conflicting advice about reconstructive surgery, and that he investigated every alternative to surgery he could find. Hip replacements aren't seen as a big deal any more, but 15 odd years ago (and in fact, even still now) there's a real risk of permanent crippling and permanent pain. I guarantee you, anyone who jumps into major surgery isn't doing themselves any favours, especially with something that is (as it was back then) new and to a certain degree experimental technology. Dealing with pain and a crippling situation, and knowing that you risk that being not only permanent, but permanent and worse if you get it wrong, and then have 6 experts all tell you something different... yeah, I can completely understand wanting to try every other option before surgery, and then wanting to be damn sure you got the right person to do the surgery. To top that off, his experience of family members undergoing medical procedures isn't great. Hell, I grew up in a medical family and I still hate dealing with hospitals and surgeons, and all the attendant bullshit of getting information out of people, or feeling confident that the administration isn't going to fuck things up.

Two years isn't that long in my experience. And I can fully understand resenting the people who were your friends and who used to be as close as brothers pushing you to move faster for commercial gain. His body, his pain, his absolute right to say when, where and how. And the fact that he did end up getting surgery and not that long after they made their choice to me indicates the band fucked themselves for the sake of one tour. Should've waited; he still might not have continued with Journey, but now no one will ever know. I think Schon and Cain gambled on commercial gain over Perry, and they got it wrong. Their following dealings with singers don't lead me to change my opinion at all.

[Gideon]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

Yeah, see, I forgot about the whole "I'm burnt out!!1!" and yet he was planning on releasing a solo album two years after the tour and then FtLoSM thing as opposed to Journey (and only then returning when Chalfant was primed to replace him).

Sorry, that shit is inexcusable.

[madsplash]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

Yeah, see, I forgot about the whole "I'm burnt out!!1!" and yet he was planning on releasing a solo album two years after the tour and then FtLoSM thing as opposed to Journey (and only then returning when Chalfant was primed to replace him).

Sorry, that shit is inexcusable.

Bottom line: Journey now is a shadow of it's former self. Look at the numbers, it's unarguable.

Fuck them for pushing him. What a joke.

You don't know what he was PLANNING. What an arrogant, dumb-ass statement. But it's consistant. Fuck Chalfant. Just another in a long line that can't carry Perry's microphone cord, including Augeri and especially Arnel. Perry lite, Perry lite.

[Gideon]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

Yeah, see, I forgot about the whole "I'm burnt out!!1!" and yet he was planning on releasing a solo album two years after the tour and then FtLoSM thing as opposed to Journey (and only then returning when Chalfant was primed to replace him).

Sorry, that shit is inexcusable.

Bottom line: Journey now is a shadow of it's former self. Look at the numbers, it's unarguable.

Fuck them for pushing him. What a joke.

You don't know what he was PLANNING. What an arrogant, dumb-ass statement. But it's consistant. Fuck Chalfant. Just another in a long line that can't carry Perry's microphone cord, including Augeri and especially Arnel. Perry lite, Perry lite.

Um... "Against the Wall"?

[madsplash]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

Yeah, see, I forgot about the whole "I'm burnt out!!1!" and yet he was planning on releasing a solo album two years after the tour and then FtLoSM thing as opposed to Journey (and only then returning when Chalfant was primed to replace him).

Sorry, that shit is inexcusable.

Bottom line: Journey now is a shadow of it's former self. Look at the numbers, it's unarguable.

Fuck them for pushing him. What a joke.

You don't know what he was PLANNING. What an arrogant, dumb-ass statement. But it's consistant. Fuck Chalfant. Just another in a long line that can't carry Perry's microphone cord, including Augeri and especially Arnel. Perry lite, Perry lite.

Um... "Against the Wall"?

Um.....Gid, just because he had been recording stuff, doesn't mean he was planning to release an album at that time. Most artists write and record all the time.

Journey is cool now. If Neal and jon hadn't been such immature, jealous babies, they could still be one of the biggest bands in the world.

If someone tried to tell me when to have MAJOR reconstructive surgery, I'd tell them to shove it completely up there ass. Especially if they had ridden my coatails on the rocketship of fame.

What a joke. Neal and Jon's houses are paid for right now beacause of Steve Motherfuckin Perry!

[Gideon]

Um.....Gid, just because he had been recording stuff, doesn't mean he was planning to release an album at that time. Most artists write and record all the time.

"That won't be a problem anymore, because Perry won't be touring behind Greatest Hits, which includes Strange Medicine cuts like "You Better Wait," earlier hits like "Foolish Heart" and the No. 3 "Oh Sherrie" from 1984's Street Talk, and selections from a 1988 solo album, Against the Wall, which never saw the light of day due to the Sony takeover of Columbia records at the time."

http://steveperryonline.net/interview/article12.html

[Arkansas]

The stone isn't fractured. That's crap. Journey lives on.
It's just the drama queens that feel they have to coddle the nads of their fave band member, and nothing else of substance in their lives.

Good gawd. Go live in your soap opera world, or be real.
Plant a garden. Live simple.


later~

[Jana]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

Yeah, see, I forgot about the whole "I'm burnt out!!1!" and yet he was planning on releasing a solo album two years after the tour and then FtLoSM thing as opposed to Journey (and only then returning when Chalfant was primed to replace him).

Sorry, that shit is inexcusable.

Bottom line: Journey now is a shadow of it's former self. Look at the numbers, it's unarguable.

Fuck them for pushing him. What a joke.

You don't know what he was PLANNING. What an arrogant, dumb-ass statement. But it's consistant. Fuck Chalfant. Just another in a long line that can't carry Perry's microphone cord, including Augeri and especially Arnel. Perry lite, Perry lite.

Um... "Against the Wall"?

Um.....Gid, just because he had been recording stuff, doesn't mean he was planning to release an album at that time. Most artists write and record all the time.

Journey is cool now. If Neal and jon hadn't been such immature, jealous babies, they could still be one of the biggest bands in the world.If someone tried to tell me when to have MAJOR reconstructive surgery, I'd tell them to shove it completely up there ass. Especially if they had ridden my coatails on the rocketship of fame.

What a joke. Neal and Jon's houses are paid for right now beacause of Steve Motherfuckin Perry!

They still could be one of the biggest bands in the world? He hadn't toured or recorded with them between '87 and '96, and even if he had toured for TBF, that would have been it. No one has heard from him. According to everybody, he could have had a big solo career. No solo record or solo tour since '96. Nothing. So what biggest band in the world are you talking about? Because it sure ain't Journey with Steve Perry. They woud have been sitting in their rocking chairs until now, 2009, waiting for him after a TBF tour b/c that would have been it.

[Red13JoePa]

You don't know what he was PLANNING.

Um... "Against the Wall"?

Um.....Gid, just because he had been recording stuff, doesn't mean he was planning to release an album at that time. Most artists write and record all the time.

"On the GH CD are many tracks which were recorded for my second solo project which was to follow Street Talk. Due to a changeover when Sony bought Columbia ALL the Against The Wall (as it was to be called) was shelved by an exec and it was never released. This was the beginning of a serious rift between Sony Music anc myself. The reason I was given by this exec was that he was not sure about the musical direction of the CD. I had NEVER heard any words like this before. Legally there was nothing I could do-Sony Music did not release it."----Steve Perry from the liner notes of GH+5.

[Gideon]

Two years isn't that long in my experience.

This is where you lose me all together. Two years, if that was the proper figure, is 730 days. Or, more staggeringly, over 17,500 hours. That, to me, is a great deal of time, particularly when it's not being burdened like... say... a tour.

And I can fully understand resenting the people who were your friends and who used to be as close as brothers pushing you to move faster for commercial gain.

Perhaps. Of course, you never know; their motives could have been as both. Friends who were morally and financially obligated to get Perry out of his physical pain and personal rut. They spent two years, while their window for great success was being pissed away. They waited on this guy once. Are you telling me they were obligated to put their lives on hold in perpetuity to wait?

In contrast, I can fully understand people resenting a man who claimed to be a friend and brother screwing them over time after time again, bitching about "personal decisions" despite obligations, and then making that decision after the fact. He obviously knew that the surgery was inevitable; Cain and Schon were right, regardless of their motive.

His body, his pain, his absolute right to say when, where and how.

They weren't exactly demanding that the decision be made the day after the problem was identified nor were they demanding circumstances of the surgery. I agree; if there were viable options, he could have done whatever the fuck he wanted. But there wasn't. Once again, he had the surgery. In the end, he knew that it was the right thing to do.

Moreover, the band had a right to move on without him. It's not like it was the first time Perry put them on hold, is it?

And the fact that he did end up getting surgery and not that long after they made their choice to me indicates the band fucked themselves for the sake of one tour.

That's surprising, because it indicates to me that Perry realized "Shit they were right, and I was being a complete tool trying to assert my autonomy despite the fact that they were right."

Should've waited;

This is where you lose me. It's Perry's decision to do whatever the hell he wants and they had an obligation to wait? Somehow, I don't think he told them when he got the infamous phone call from Cain "Well, hey guys! I'm getting the surgery, give me two more weeks!"

Logically, he either: a.) Made the decision in advance and out of obstinance, refused to reveal the fact or b.) Made the decision in a hurry after he was let go, which nullifies the argument that they "were pushing him."

he still might not have continued with Journey, but now no one will ever know. I think Schon and Cain gambled on commercial gain over Perry, and they got it wrong. Their following dealings with singers don't lead me to change my opinion at all.

I disagree. I think Neal and the boys wanted to get out on the road and move on with their lives.[/i]

[Gideon]

For the record, Madsplash, I thought we were going to avoid pejoratives and insults? Seems like you can't hold up your end of a deal, particularly on a point where you were proven wrong.

[RossValoryRocks]

I hope everyone understands that Journey was fronted MILLIONS of dollars to tour for TBF...and because Perry hesitated, they had to give it all back. You can be sure there were financial reasons for the other member of Journey to push Steve to get the surgery, they also said they would wait, IF he got the surgery. He declined, they paid back the money, and moved on.

I understand that major surgery is a personal decision, but with millions on the line and responsibility to the other members of Journey hanging there Perry made the decision he felt he had to make for himself. It was a very selfish moment, but in the end he did what he felt he had to do to have peace.

He cracked the stone, but what his true motivation is, I am not sure anyone but Perry knows.

[Gideon]

I hope everyone understands that Journey was fronted MILLIONS of dollars to tour for TBF...and because Perry hesitated, they had to give it all back. You can be sure there were financial reasons for the other member of Journey to push Steve to get the surgery, they also said they would wait, IF he got the surgery. He declined, they paid back the money, and moved on.

I understand that major surgery is a personal decision, but with millions on the line and responsibility to the other members of Journey hanging there Perry made the decision he felt he had to make for himself. It was a very selfish moment, but in the end he did what he felt he had to do to have peace.

He cracked the stone, but what his true motivation is, I am not sure anyone but Perry knows.

Well, I didn't know that.

That just goes to show: there's no credible way to pin this on Schon or Cain. At least, not moreso than Perry.

[Rick]

I love Perry, and while he didn't fracture it, he caused the other guys to do it. We can speculate from here to the end of the earth why he didn't tour TBF. My opinion is that he knew he couldn't tour that catalog anymore and used his hip as an excuse. I'm probably wrong, but that's what I think.

[Ehwmatt]

I love Perry, and while he didn't fracture it, he caused the other guys to do it. We can speculate from here to the end of the earth why he didn't tour TBF. My opinion is that he knew he couldn't tour that catalog anymore and used his hip as an excuse. I'm probably wrong, but that's what I think.

I think you're right, especially if the TBF vocal sessions were really as tedious and painstaking as has been reported...

[Gideon]

I love Perry, and while he didn't fracture it, he caused the other guys to do it.

Technically.

Bin Laden didn't start the War on Terror, but he was the catalyst for it. The blame resides primarily with Perry.

We can speculate from here to the end of the earth why he didn't tour TBF. My opinion is that he knew he couldn't tour that catalog anymore and used his hip as an excuse. I'm probably wrong, but that's what I think.

I think that was likely, yes.

[DrFU]

If Neal and jon hadn't been such immature, jealous babies, they could still be one of the biggest bands in the world.

Nirvana? Anyone?

The stone did not exist in a vacuum ...

[Gideon]

Nirvana? Anyone?

The stone did not exist in a vacuum ...

Yuck.

Their success is a demonstration of how low we as a society can go.

[Rhiannon]

If Neal and jon hadn't been such immature, jealous babies, they could still be one of the biggest bands in the world.

Nirvana? Anyone?

The stone did not exist in a vacuum ...

See my thought that it was natural progression.

[Gideon]

If Neal and jon hadn't been such immature, jealous babies, they could still be one of the biggest bands in the world.

Nirvana? Anyone?

The stone did not exist in a vacuum ...

See my thought that it was natural progression.

You view Nirvana as progression.

Mmm...

You are sick, my child. Through great faith in Jesus may ye be cured of your nigh-incurable illness.

[DrFU]

Nirvana? Anyone?

The stone did not exist in a vacuum ...

Yuck.

Their success is a demonstration of how low we as a society can go.

Widely acknowledged to have been the harbinger of death for arena rock, which stayed pretty much cold and lifeless until the modest Renaissance of the past several years.

[Gideon]

Nirvana? Anyone?

The stone did not exist in a vacuum ...

Yuck.

Their success is a demonstration of how low we as a society can go.

Widely acknowledged to have been the harbinger of death for MUSIC IN GENERAL, which stayed pretty much cold and lifeless until the modest Renaissance of the past several years.

Fixed.