OT: Female Circumcision Still Prevalent - WTF?

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OT: Female Circumcision Still Prevalent - WTF?

Postby Voyager » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:02 am

I cannot believe how badly religions can screw up the minds of people:

A Quiet Revolution Grows in the Muslim World
By Robin Wright Thursday, Mar. 19, 2009
Time.com

Three decades after Iran's upheaval established Islamic clerical rule for the first time in 14 centuries, a quieter and more profound revolution is transforming the Muslim world. Dalia Ziada is a part of it.

When Ziada was 8, her mother told her to don a white party dress for a surprise celebration. It turned out to be a painful circumcision. But Ziada decided to fight back. The young Egyptian spent years arguing with her father and uncles against the genital mutilation of her sister and cousins, a campaign she eventually developed into a wider movement. She now champions everything from freedom of speech to women's rights and political prisoners. To promote civil disobedience, Ziada last year translated into Arabic a comic-book history about Martin Luther King Jr. and distributed 2,000 copies from Morocco to Yemen.

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Now 26, Ziada organized Cairo's first human-rights film festival in November. The censorship board did not approve the films, so Ziada doorstopped its chairman at the elevator and rode up with him to plead her case. When the theater was suspiciously closed at the last minute, she rented a tourist boat on the Nile for opening night--waiting until it was offshore and beyond the arm of the law to start the movie.

Ziada shies away from little, including the grisly intimate details of her life. But she also wears a veil, a sign that her religious faith remains undimmed. "My ultimate interest," she wrote in her first blog entry, "is to please Allah with all I am doing in my own life."

That sentiment is echoed around the Muslim world. In many of the scores of countries that are predominantly Muslim, the latest generation of activists is redefining society in novel ways. This new soft revolution is distinct from three earlier waves of change--the Islamic revival of the 1970s, the rise of extremism in the 1980s and the growth of Muslim political parties in the 1990s.

Today's revolution is more vibrantly Islamic than ever. Yet it is also decidedly antijihadist and ambivalent about Islamist political parties. Culturally, it is deeply conservative, but its goal is to adapt to the 21st century. Politically, it rejects secularism and Westernization but craves changes compatible with modern global trends. The soft revolution is more about groping for identity and direction than expressing piety. The new revolutionaries are synthesizing Koranic values with the ways of life spawned by the Internet, satellite television and Facebook. For them, Islam, you might say, is the path to change rather than the goal itself. "It's a nonviolent revolution trying to mix modernity and religion," Ziada says, honking as she makes her way through Cairo's horrendous traffic for a meeting of one of the rights groups she works with.

The new Muslim activists, who take on diverse causes from one country to another, have emerged in reaction to the Sept. 11 attacks and all that has happened since. Navtej Dhillon, director of the Brookings Institution's Middle East Youth Initiative, says, "There's a generation between the ages of 15 and 35 driving this soft revolution--like the baby boomers in the U.S.--who are defined by a common experience. It should have been a generation outward looking in a positive way, with more education, access to technology and aspirations for economic mobility." Instead, he says, "it's become hostage to post-9/11 politics." Disillusioned with extremists who can destroy but who fail to construct alternatives that improve daily life, members of the post-9/11 generation are increasingly relying on Islamic values rather than on a religion-based ideology to advance their aims. And importantly, the soft revolution has generated a new self-confidence among Muslims and a sense that the answers to their problems lie within their own faith and community rather than in the outside world. The revolution is about reform in a conservative package.


:shock:
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Postby ebake02 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:39 am

Sick bastards.
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Postby WiseOldTabbyCat » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:15 am

It's horrifying, the treatment of women in some regions.

Okay male circumcision is one thing, but female circumcision is just in a different league.
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Postby StevePerryHair » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:44 am

This is actually a positive story though, even though the thought of female circumcision is horrifying to us. Change is always slow. This article actually shows hope. And the male circumcision only came about for religious purposes too. And they still do that, even though when you think about it, it is very barbaric too. I understand it's not exactly the same as what they are doing to these little girls, but still. My son had one but I had a hard time with it. He had to wait 3 weeks because of an infection I aquired during his birth. If you saw the little board they strapped his arms and legs on so he cant' move and watched it, I bet it would make you just as sick. I left the room when they took the board out. And I left for the cafeteria so I couldn't hear his screams through the door. There is a lot of controversy if male circumcisions are even necessary anymore. Many say it's not,but look how we still want to do it to our babies.
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Postby Shadowsong » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:45 am

Barbarism still alive in the 21st century

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Postby DrFU » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:55 am

Female circumcision is a misnomer ... female genital mutilation is the more accurate term. The numbers are staggering and the details horrific. From the World Health Organization:

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/
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Postby StevePerryHair » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:01 am

DrFU wrote:Female circumcision is a misnomer ... female genital mutilation is the more accurate term. The numbers are staggering and the details horrific. From the World Health Organization:

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/


Yes, that is true. And I did say I realized it's a very different thing. It is horrifying and disgusting what they are doing to these girls. It makes me sick to think about it. I just think it's interesting that we still have an old religious practice that they are finding isn't necessarily medically necessary anymore, that we all still practice in large numbers in our country. I didn't meant to say that it's anything like what they are describing in that article. And I just think this article was positive to see that there are people fighting back and that with future generations maybe there can be hope for change. Change is horribly slow, especially when you have strict religious clerics ruling in these countries.
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Postby DrFU » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:07 am

StevePerryHair wrote:
DrFU wrote:Female circumcision is a misnomer ... female genital mutilation is the more accurate term. The numbers are staggering and the details horrific. From the World Health Organization:

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/


Yes, that is true. And I did say I realized it's a very different thing. It is horrifying and disgusting what they are doing to these girls. It makes me sick to think about it. I just think it's interesting that we still have an old religious practice that they are finding isn't necessarily medically necessary anymore, that we all still practice in large numbers in our country. I didn't meant to say that it's anything like what they are describing in that article. And I just think this article was positive to see that there are people fighting back and that with future generations maybe there can be hope for change. Change is horribly slow, especially when you have strict religious clerics ruling in these countries.


I know, Lynn; I wasn't responding specifically to you. As the mom of three boys, I can certainly relate to the point you were making. I just wanted to add on that the language we use to discuss things carries it own kind of power.
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Postby walkslikealady » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:12 am

Glad some girls are fighting back.

To me, the practices are punishments for the women because of the male lack of control. Wearing a veil in public so a man won't be attracted to a woman or, supposedly, making sex unenjoyable for a woman so she won't cheat on a husband. At least, that's what I've gleaned are the reasons for some practices.
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Postby StevePerryHair » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:14 am

DrFU wrote:
StevePerryHair wrote:
DrFU wrote:Female circumcision is a misnomer ... female genital mutilation is the more accurate term. The numbers are staggering and the details horrific. From the World Health Organization:

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/


Yes, that is true. And I did say I realized it's a very different thing. It is horrifying and disgusting what they are doing to these girls. It makes me sick to think about it. I just think it's interesting that we still have an old religious practice that they are finding isn't necessarily medically necessary anymore, that we all still practice in large numbers in our country. I didn't meant to say that it's anything like what they are describing in that article. And I just think this article was positive to see that there are people fighting back and that with future generations maybe there can be hope for change. Change is horribly slow, especially when you have strict religious clerics ruling in these countries.


I know, Lynn; I wasn't responding specifically to you. As the mom of three boys, I can certainly relate to the point you were making. I just wanted to add on that the language we use to discuss things carries it own kind of power.


Oh, okay! I just didn't want anyone to think I was justifying it or saying it's exactly the same as male circumcision! They aren't mutilating boys and they use anesthtics and it is different. The purpose isn't to take anything away from a male when he is circumcized either. They are destroying these girls lives. But I just felt after I did it with my son, that maybe I made the wrong choice. He wasn't a day old new born who slept through the pain, so I felt bad for my choice when I thought about it later, especially when you read all the new research on it!
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Postby Arianddu » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:23 am

The problem is that this, along with wearing the veil, the subordination of women, 'honour killings' and all the other horrible things that are done in Islamic counties aren't religious, they're cultural. The Koran demands that all people dress modestly (and that's an injunction against conspicuous displays of wealth, as well as bodily modesty) and that women keep their breasts covered. The notion that women should keep their hair covered, or their entire bodies, is purely a cultural thing. The Koran also specifies the rights women have within marriage, over their own property, their children, their rights to divorce and their sexual rights - but these things get ignored in favour of traditional cultural practice.

It's not mentioned here, but part of this revolution is teaching people, especially women, to read, and to read Arabic, because Islam has a core belief that as the Koran is believed to be the literal word of God, translations are a deviation from the truth and unreliable. If you can read that the Koran specifically prohibits female genital mutilation, honour killings, etc, then it's hard to keep enforcing those things.

Ain't education grand?
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Postby Shadowsong » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:40 am

Arianddu wrote:The problem is that this, along with wearing the veil, the subordination of women, 'honour killings' and all the other horrible things that are done in Islamic counties aren't religious, they're cultural. The Koran demands that all people dress modestly (and that's an injunction against conspicuous displays of wealth, as well as bodily modesty) and that women keep their breasts covered. The notion that women should keep their hair covered, or their entire bodies, is purely a cultural thing. The Koran also specifies the rights women have within marriage, over their own property, their children, their rights to divorce and their sexual rights - but these things get ignored in favour of traditional cultural practice.

It's not mentioned here, but part of this revolution is teaching people, especially women, to read, and to read Arabic, because Islam has a core belief that as the Koran is believed to be the literal word of God, translations are a deviation from the truth and unreliable. If you can read that the Koran specifically prohibits female genital mutilation, honour killings, etc, then it's hard to keep enforcing those things.

Ain't education grand?


It pains me to see such hell on earth!
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Postby Arkansas » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:32 pm

Isn't it all mutilation? I mean, male circumcision is only okay because we have centuries of acceptance. If female circumcision was as big a deal over the all these years, then it'd be no big deal today, no?

Think about it. Why do we snip the rods of our young boys, but not touch the girls? Apparently, we treat their bodies much more sacredly than the boys.

And everyone thinks men rule the world...


later~
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Postby Jubilee » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:38 pm

Arkansas wrote:Isn't it all mutilation? I mean, male circumcision is only okay because we have centuries of acceptance. If female circumcision was as big a deal over the all these years, then it'd be no big deal today, no?

Think about it. Why do we snip the rods of our young boys, but not touch the girls? Apparently, we treat their bodies much more sacredly than the boys.

And everyone thinks men rule the world...


later~


In general, perhaps. In this particular instance that does not appear to be the case. In fact, quite the opposite.
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Postby Gideon » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:42 pm

Arianddu wrote:The Koran demands that all people dress modestly (and that's an injunction against conspicuous displays of wealth, as well as bodily modesty) and that women keep their breasts covered.


I believe I have identified the major problem with most organized religions.
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Postby Rick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:44 pm

Jubilee wrote:
Arkansas wrote:Isn't it all mutilation? I mean, male circumcision is only okay because we have centuries of acceptance. If female circumcision was as big a deal over the all these years, then it'd be no big deal today, no?

Think about it. Why do we snip the rods of our young boys, but not touch the girls? Apparently, we treat their bodies much more sacredly than the boys.

And everyone thinks men rule the world...


later~


In general, perhaps. In this particular instance that does not appear to be the case. In fact, quite the opposite.


Yes, in this instance, I believe the clitoris is removed.
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Postby Gideon » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:45 pm

Jesus Christ.

So I just half way through the article. Female equivalent of castration?
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Postby Jubilee » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:47 pm

Rick wrote:
Jubilee wrote:
Arkansas wrote:Isn't it all mutilation? I mean, male circumcision is only okay because we have centuries of acceptance. If female circumcision was as big a deal over the all these years, then it'd be no big deal today, no?

Think about it. Why do we snip the rods of our young boys, but not touch the girls? Apparently, we treat their bodies much more sacredly than the boys.

And everyone thinks men rule the world...


later~


In general, perhaps. In this particular instance that does not appear to be the case. In fact, quite the opposite.


Yes, in this instance, I believe the clitoris is removed.


Exactly. As in "sorry ladies, no fun for you. Game over..." :shock:
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Postby Rick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:47 pm

Gideon wrote:Jesus Christ.

So I just half way through the article. Female equivalent of castration?


Sort of. I don't think they take the ovaries, but what they do is remove any pleasure or desire of sex.
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Postby Gideon » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:49 pm

Rick wrote:
Gideon wrote:Jesus Christ.

So I just half way through the article. Female equivalent of castration?


Sort of. I don't think they take the ovaries, but what they do is remove any pleasure or desire of sex.


They remove any pleasure of desire of sex? Through mutiliation, I understand the anatomical responses to pleasure, but desire all together?

Damn.

Orwell would be proud.
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Postby Rick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:52 pm

Gideon wrote:
Rick wrote:
Gideon wrote:Jesus Christ.

So I just half way through the article. Female equivalent of castration?


Sort of. I don't think they take the ovaries, but what they do is remove any pleasure or desire of sex.


They remove any pleasure of desire of sex? Through mutiliation, I understand the anatomical responses to pleasure, but desire all together?

Damn.

Orwell would be proud.


Physically stimulated desire, yes. I doubt it removes the emotional desire, which I can only think would be a torturous life sentence.
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Postby DrFU » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:52 pm

Arkansas wrote:Isn't it all mutilation? I mean, male circumcision is only okay because we have centuries of acceptance. If female circumcision was as big a deal over the all these years, then it'd be no big deal today, no?

Think about it. Why do we snip the rods of our young boys, but not touch the girls? Apparently, we treat their bodies much more sacredly than the boys.

And everyone thinks men rule the world...


later~


Yes, it's all mutilation. But removal of a section of loose skin on an infant under sterile conditions in a hospital is just not the same thing as removal of the clitoris (made up of a high concentration of nerves and blood vessels) on an older child or young woman by a lay person in an unsterile setting without anesthesia. Often times all external genitalia are removed as well and the the vagina is sewn closed. Read the WHO report; this is horrific and it happens to millions of women and girls every year.
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Postby Voyager » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:54 pm

Rick wrote:
Gideon wrote:Jesus Christ.

So I just half way through the article. Female equivalent of castration?


Sort of. I don't think they take the ovaries, but what they do is remove any pleasure or desire of sex.


Yeah, so the horny males won't be as tempted to rape them. They use religion to mask their domination of the female gender, and to try to disguise their own lack of self control as a religious ritual. Damn savages.

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Postby madsplash » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:10 am

With males, it's a matter of hygiene. Ask any doctor. The female thing makes no sense.
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Postby StevePerryHair » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:49 am

madsplash wrote:With males, it's a matter of hygiene. Ask any doctor. The female thing makes no sense.



So they believed for many years, but now research does not support that statistically. Look it up. Makes no more sense really. (though I have said, NOT the same as what this article is talking about) It started as a religious practice too, in the Islamic and Jewish faiths. The American Academy of Pediatrics won't even recommend it anymore:

http://www.aap.org/publiced/br_circumcision.htm
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Postby stevew2 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:56 am

Arianddu wrote:The problem is that this, along with wearing the veil, the subordination of women, 'honour killings' and all the other horrible things that are done in Islamic counties aren't religious, they're cultural. The Koran demands that all people dress modestly (and that's an injunction against conspicuous displays of wealth, as well as bodily modesty) and that women keep their breasts covered. The notion that women should keep their hair covered, or their entire bodies, is purely a cultural thing. The Koran also specifies the rights women have within marriage, over their own property, their children, their rights to divorce and their sexual rights - but these things get ignored in favour of traditional cultural practice.

It's not mentioned here, but part of this revolution is teaching people, especially women, to read, and to read Arabic, because Islam has a core belief that as the Koran is believed to be the literal word of God, translations are a deviation from the truth and unreliable. If you can read that the Koran specifically prohibits female genital mutilation, honour killings, etc, then it's hard to keep enforcing those things.

Ain't education grand?
Its a good thing you re are not in as Islamic countriy,you would never be able to display your rack
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Postby madsplash » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:29 am

StevePerryHair wrote:
madsplash wrote:With males, it's a matter of hygiene. Ask any doctor. The female thing makes no sense.



So they believed for many years, but now research does not support that statistically. Look it up. Makes no more sense really. (though I have said, NOT the same as what this article is talking about) It started as a religious practice too, in the Islamic and Jewish faiths. The American Academy of Pediatrics won't even recommend it anymore:

http://www.aap.org/publiced/br_circumcision.htm


There are enough reasons in that link to still make MOST doctor's recommend it.
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Postby Ehwmatt » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:34 am

To quote Walt Kowalski, "Goddamn barbarians!"

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Postby stevew2 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:40 am

madsplash wrote:
StevePerryHair wrote:
madsplash wrote:With males, it's a matter of hygiene. Ask any doctor. The female thing makes no sense.



So they believed for many years, but now research does not support that statistically. Look it up. Makes no more sense really. (though I have said, NOT the same as what this article is talking about) It started as a religious practice too, in the Islamic and Jewish faiths. The American Academy of Pediatrics won't even recommend it anymore:

http://www.aap.org/publiced/br_circumcision.htm


There are enough reasons in that link to still make MOST doctor's recommend it.
i recommend.it, An uncircumcised penis look like it got stuck in a lawn mower.I wouldnt want that shit around my love knob
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Postby bluejeangirl76 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:45 am

stevew2 wrote:i recommend.it, An uncircumcised penis look like it got stuck in a lawn mower.I would want that shit around my love knob


*splooey* Coffee everywhere.

Steve, you're posts need warnings ahead of them.
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