Who Fractured the Stone?

[DrFU]

If Neal and jon hadn't been such immature, jealous babies, they could still be one of the biggest bands in the world.

Nirvana? Anyone?

The stone did not exist in a vacuum ...

See my thought that it was natural progression.

K ... point awarded ... got distracted by the "bent over" ...

[Rick]

If Neal and jon hadn't been such immature, jealous babies, they could still be one of the biggest bands in the world.

Nirvana? Anyone?

The stone did not exist in a vacuum ...

You're hotter than a $2 pistol in that av. Dayum!

[Jana]

I love Perry, and while he didn't fracture it, he caused the other guys to do it. We can speculate from here to the end of the earth why he didn't tour TBF. My opinion is that he knew he couldn't tour that catalog anymore and used his hip as an excuse. I'm probably wrong, but that's what I think.

I think you're right, especially if the TBF vocal sessions were really as tedious and painstaking as has been reported...

Amen, Rick.

A hip replacement is a very common procedure.
Plus after recording TBF and doing promo they said maybe they would do a tour or something similar, that they were talking about it. It was a TV spot where they were sitting in a room together. I would have thought they went into the studio recording planning on a tour. I attribute the wavering on Perry. (My opinion, not fact.) Then once he committed, like Rick said, he used the hip as an excuse.

[Gideon]

If Neal and jon hadn't been such immature, jealous babies, they could still be one of the biggest bands in the world.

Nirvana? Anyone?

The stone did not exist in a vacuum ...

See my thought that it was natural progression.

K ... point awarded ... got distracted by the "bent over" ...

So many jokes, so little time.

Ironic how at the words "bent over", Rick shows back up on this thread.

(Kidding, Rickles, don't hurt me)

[Rhiannon]

If Neal and jon hadn't been such immature, jealous babies, they could still be one of the biggest bands in the world.

Nirvana? Anyone?

The stone did not exist in a vacuum ...

See my thought that it was natural progression.

K ... point awarded ... got distracted by the "bent over" ...

Honey, you left me with a golden opportunity here... but I'm gonna let it slide this time.

[DrFU]

If Neal and jon hadn't been such immature, jealous babies, they could still be one of the biggest bands in the world.

Nirvana? Anyone?

The stone did not exist in a vacuum ...

You're hotter than a $2 pistol in that av. Dayum!

thankee kindly, Rick. Hiking w/ oldest boy child in Colorado Springs ... gorgeous place, chamber of commerce weather today ... glorious end to spring break.

[DrFU]

If Neal and jon hadn't been such immature, jealous babies, they could still be one of the biggest bands in the world.

Nirvana? Anyone?

The stone did not exist in a vacuum ...

See my thought that it was natural progression.

K ... point awarded ... got distracted by the "bent over" ...

Honey, you left me with a golden opportunity here... but I'm gonna let it slide this time.

We've all be so well behaved for so long ... you know it's gonna break loose sooner or later around here ...

[Gideon]

If Neal and jon hadn't been such immature, jealous babies, they could still be one of the biggest bands in the world.

Nirvana? Anyone?

The stone did not exist in a vacuum ...

See my thought that it was natural progression.

K ... point awarded ... got distracted by the "bent over" ...

Honey, you left me with a golden opportunity here... but I'm gonna let it slide this time.

Got there first!

[Jana]

I hope everyone understands that Journey was fronted MILLIONS of dollars to tour for TBF...and because Perry hesitated, they had to give it all back. You can be sure there were financial reasons for the other member of Journey to push Steve to get the surgery, they also said they would wait, IF he got the surgery. He declined, they paid back the money, and moved on.

I understand that major surgery is a personal decision, but with millions on the line and responsibility to the other members of Journey hanging there Perry made the decision he felt he had to make for himself. It was a very selfish moment, but in the end he did what he felt he had to do to have peace.

He cracked the stone, but what his true motivation is, I am not sure anyone but Perry knows.

+ 100

[CHELBEL]

I think Perry just wanted out ... his reasons were his own and we may never know what they were.

[Deacon]

I think Perry just wanted out ... his reasons were his own and we may never know what they were.

That's true, but he shouldn't have drug the rest of the band out with him in his attempts.

[Deacon]

Got there first!

A lot of women have said you did.

[CHELBEL]

It's hard not to drag people who are hanging onto your coat tails. Bitch of a ride!

[Red13JoePa]

I think Perry just wanted out ... his reasons were his own and we may never know what they were.

That's not how he put it in 2001 on BTM.
In that Cain is the "bad guy."

[Deacon]

It's hard not to drag people who are hanging onto your coat tails. Bitch of a ride!

Considering that they've continued their successes where as Steve Perry has not, I'd say the ride was mutually contributed to. Take it this way, they all paid gas money for the trip to hell and back.

[CHELBEL]

It's hard not to drag people who are hanging onto your coat tails. Bitch of a ride!

Take it this way, they all paid gas money for the trip to hell and back.

Well put! Touche!!

[Since 78]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

I agree with SJ, that's why Neal throws out the F bomb when discussing Perry. I don't blame him at all. It had to be very frustrating for him and the rest of the guys.

[Jana]

I think Perry just wanted out ... his reasons were his own and we may never know what they were.

That's not how he put it in 2001 on BTM.
In that Cain is the "bad guy."

Really? Interesting. I didn't know that.

[Gideon]

Got there first!

A lot of women have said you did.

You're on a roll tonight!

[Deacon]

Got there first!

A lot of women have said you did.

You're on a roll tonight!

I try.

[Arianddu]

Two years isn't that long in my experience.

This is where you lose me all together. Two years, if that was the proper figure, is 730 days. Or, more staggeringly, over 17,500 hours. That, to me, is a great deal of time, particularly when it's not being burdened like... say... a tour.

Ok, I really hate using the age card, but in this case I think it does apply. Giddy, you are 17, two years is nearly one eighth of your whole life. Two years at 45 isn't nearly so much (or even at 36!) And I think you are missing the point - it wasn't a case of "surgery now" = "surgery in 2 years". Joint replacement technology was (and still is) changing on a monthly basis; 2 years in the early to mid 90s was the difference between a 1 in 10 chance of permanent pain and disability and 1 in 50 chance.

Look, when I was sixteen, I dislocated my left knee 180 degrees; I was fortunate that the muscles ripped off the bone rather than tearing and I had no tendon damage, but the connections have never properly healed, and these days the only thing that keeps my knee cap in place and stops my knee bending the wrong way is the strength of the two muscles that run either side and the third that crosses over the knee cap. If I get lazy and don't excercise every day, or if I land awkwardly and put to much strain on it, or I over-excercise and push too hard, the joint bends the wrong way and I damage it; swollen knee and extreme pain for days. I know damn well that one day I'm going to have to have surgery on it, because every time it bends the wrong way the cartilege gets damaged and that damage is accumulative. At the moment, most of the time it isn't an issue. Knee surgery is complicated, but it's improving all the time. Now I've had four different experts (and they are all internationally recognised authorities) give me four different opinions on when I should get surgery, or even if I should have it all. One's told me to leave it as long as I possibly can and trust that the increases in technology will make up for the accumulated damage, one's told me that surgery is going to do nothing for my particular injury, one has said I should get regular 'clean up' surgery and one has said I should consider it in about 5 years time. They've all given me different advice as to what procedure would be used, what the recovery time is, what the success rate is, how effective it will be, and if there is anything that can be done about the main issue which is that the muscles in my leg no longer connect to each other and the bones in the way they should.

Now, when my knee is bad, bending hurts like hell, keeping it straight aches like buggery, walking is problematic even if it's strapped and immobilised. It hurts, all the time, and that makes everything else harder to deal with. The thought of that pain never going away scares the shit out of me, because that is one possibility in my future. Shift that to a hip. You can't strap a hip, and if it hurts, you can't stand, sit, lie, walk, or do anything without pain. So what happens when you have 6 or so doctors all giving you different advice about radical new technology that is literally improving on a monthly basis, when the one constant is that if it goes wrong, and there is a good chance it will, that you will be in this pain forever, or worse, and possibly permanently in a wheelchair? What do you do? You wait as long as you can god-damn bear it to let the technology improve as much as it can and the risks involved reduce. And you find out as much as you can about it, and you check the success rate of every god damn surgeon you can, and you take as few risks as you possibly can. Two years compared to the rest of your life? Not a lot of time, really.

And I can fully understand resenting the people who were your friends and who used to be as close as brothers pushing you to move faster for commercial gain.

Perhaps. Of course, you never know; their motives could have been as both. Friends who were morally and financially obligated to get Perry out of his physical pain and personal rut. They spent two years, while their window for great success was being pissed away. They waited on this guy once. Are you telling me they were obligated to put their lives on hold in perpetuity to wait?

In contrast, I can fully understand people resenting a man who claimed to be a friend and brother screwing them over time after time again, bitching about "personal decisions" despite obligations, and then making that decision after the fact. He obviously knew that the surgery was inevitable; Cain and Schon were right, regardless of their motive.

Knowing surgery is inevitable doesn't mean that having it sooner rather than later is better. Like I said, the 2 years he waited got the risks from around 1 in 10 to 1 in 50. I don't blame the rest of the band for the decision they made, but I can see how it would piss Perry off to have his personal life and his health put second to commercial interests.

His body, his pain, his absolute right to say when, where and how.

They weren't exactly demanding that the decision be made the day after the problem was identified nor were they demanding circumstances of the surgery. I agree; if there were viable options, he could have done whatever the fuck he wanted. But there wasn't. Once again, he had the surgery. In the end, he knew that it was the right thing to do.

Moreover, the band had a right to move on without him. It's not like it was the first time Perry put them on hold, is it?

Surgery - see above. And yes, the band had a right to move on, of course they did. And I doubt that Perry was an angel to be around, but then I doubt any of them were.

And the fact that he did end up getting surgery and not that long after they made their choice to me indicates the band fucked themselves for the sake of one tour.

That's surprising, because it indicates to me that Perry realized "Shit they were right, and I was being a complete tool trying to assert my autonomy despite the fact that they were right."

Absolutely disagree with you on this one.

Should've waited;

This is where you lose me. It's Perry's decision to do whatever the hell he wants and they had an obligation to wait? Somehow, I don't think he told them when he got the infamous phone call from Cain "Well, hey guys! I'm getting the surgery, give me two more weeks!"

Logically, he either: a.) Made the decision in advance and out of obstinance, refused to reveal the fact or b.) Made the decision in a hurry after he was let go, which nullifies the argument that they "were pushing him."

No, I don't think the band had an obligation to wait, I think they made a mistake in not waiting. They had several choices; move on without Perry, tour with a different line up as a 'supergroup' but not under the Journey name, write off the TBF tour and look to the next album, retire Journey completely and move on with their lives and other projects. They made the decision they did. My guess is that if they had waited, writen off the TBF tour, and spent time writing a killer next album and waited for Perry to do what he needed to do in his time, then Journey would be bigger now than it was then. I also think that if they had said 'ok, Journey's done, let's all move on' then at this point a reunion with Perry would be a real option and making a damn site more money that the current incarnation. With the benefit of hindsight, I think they made the wrong choice, but we'll never know. And the choice was absolutely their to make, not Perry's.

he still might not have continued with Journey, but now no one will ever know. I think Schon and Cain gambled on commercial gain over Perry, and they got it wrong. Their following dealings with singers don't lead me to change my opinion at all.

I disagree. I think Neal and the boys wanted to get out on the road and move on with their lives.[/i]

Like I said, they had other options to do that with. Bad English had been a success, there was no reason why they couldn't do something similar with another singer, another name. Instead they chose to keep milking the cash cow, and like I said, in hindsight I think they made the wrong decision.

Bottom line is - Schon, Cain and Valory chose to keep going with Journey without Perry. Smith decided not to follow, and Perry has never forgiven them for making the choice they did. Nothing is going to change that. I don't blame them for the decision they made, but I don't agree that it was the best decision. But I am tired of people claiming that Perry made his choices with any idea of fucking Journey over, or as some kind of power play. In the end, it's just a band - bands come and go, and there's always the option of another record. But his health, his body - that's his alone, he can't replace it, and no one else has any right to dictate when and how he deals with his health issues. I don't for one second blame him for not being willing to take a risk so a group could get another tour out or promote another album. And while I understand the decision the others made and fully acknowledge they had every right to make it, I can also understand how Perry could feel like he was sold for another album, another tour.

[Gideon]

That was a beautiful response as regards the surgery (and you really should stop worrying about the "age card"; it doesn't offend me). But it still doesn't change the fact that the rest of the band isn't in the wrong for not giving Perry more time. Nor does it change the fact that Perry went about it wrong; you yourself said he made his decision to have the surgery shortly after he was let go. Nor does it change the fact that they were right. It was inevitable.

Edited on account of poor wording.

[Jubilee]

I don't know if Perry cracked the stone, or if he made the band crack it for him, but I do think he jerked them around a bit. After the truncated ROR tour he reportedly told Neal and Jon he couldn't "do this anymore". Apparently, they were thinking in the present tense, as in he just needs a break - for now. Meanwhile, Perry appeared to actually be telling them he didn't want to "do this anymore" as in EVER. Perhaps there were contractual obligations he needed to fulfill with the TBF record. There also seems to be some sentiment expressed in various interviews that members of the band suspected Perry never intended to tour and they were not necessarily surprised that he balked.

My question is, why make the record then leave it to die on the vine without a tour? Unless it is your intention to put a final nail in the Journey coffin.

[Gideon]

I don't know if Perry cracked the stone, or if he made the band crack it for him, but I do think he jerked them around a bit. After the truncated ROR tour he reportedly told Neal and Jon he couldn't "do this anymore". Apparently, they were thinking in the present tense, as in he just needs a break - for now. Meanwhile, Perry appeared to actually be telling them he didn't want to "do this anymore" as in EVER. Perhaps there were contractual obligations he needed to fulfill with the TBF record. There also seems to be some sentiment expressed in various interviews that members of the band suspected Perry never intended to tour and they were not necessarily surprised that he balked.

My question is, why make the record then leave it to die on the vine without a tour? Unless it is your intention to put a final nail in the Journey coffin.

Precisely.

More importantly, how he "was burned out" and "was dry" and "had nothing left to say"... yet planned on releasing an album two years after the RoR tour ended. And when karma apparently bitchslapped him for his deception by leaving "Against the Wall" in limbo, he went out to make another solo album. None of them are blameless, but Perry shoulders most of it.

[Arianddu]

I don't know if Perry cracked the stone, or if he made the band crack it for him, but I do think he jerked them around a bit. After the truncated ROR tour he reportedly told Neal and Jon he couldn't "do this anymore". Apparently, they were thinking in the present tense, as in he just needs a break - for now. Meanwhile, Perry appeared to actually be telling them he didn't want to "do this anymore" as in EVER. Perhaps there were contractual obligations he needed to fulfill with the TBF record. There also seems to be some sentiment expressed in various interviews that members of the band suspected Perry never intended to tour and they were not necessarily surprised that he balked.

My question is, why make the record then leave it to die on the vine without a tour? Unless it is your intention to put a final nail in the Journey coffin.

Fucking hell, do you really need to ask this? Because they made the album and THEN he got sick. It's not rocket science people!!
Shit, do any of you people consider that he had as much to lose financially as they did? Or that maybe, just maybe, no one made any decision for any reason other than it's what seemed best for them at the time? That maybe there wasn't some great conspiracy on one side or the other, that no one was out to fuck over anyone else?



Nah, you're right - he lied about everything, he deliberately fucked them all over for a sadistic power trip and the reason he keeps his hair long is to hide the god damn horns. He doesn't just punch kittens, he sticks them in the microwave when he's done with them. Now go look at the lyrics of Perry's solo stuff - it's all there in code, his plan to fuck over every single person in his life who proved to be less than perfect...

[Gideon]

That wasn't really necessary. There has been no credible argument to dispute the fact that Perry has fucked Journey more than once, and has done so far worse than can be said of Cain or Schon.

Are you just as passionate about defending them when they catch hell?

[Jubilee]

I don't know if Perry cracked the stone, or if he made the band crack it for him, but I do think he jerked them around a bit. After the truncated ROR tour he reportedly told Neal and Jon he couldn't "do this anymore". Apparently, they were thinking in the present tense, as in he just needs a break - for now. Meanwhile, Perry appeared to actually be telling them he didn't want to "do this anymore" as in EVER. Perhaps there were contractual obligations he needed to fulfill with the TBF record. There also seems to be some sentiment expressed in various interviews that members of the band suspected Perry never intended to tour and they were not necessarily surprised that he balked.

My question is, why make the record then leave it to die on the vine without a tour? Unless it is your intention to put a final nail in the Journey coffin.

Fucking hell, do you really need to ask this? Because they made the album and THEN he got sick. It's not rocket science people!!
Shit, do any of you people consider that he had as much to lose financially as they did? Or that maybe, just maybe, no one made any decision for any reason other than it's what seemed best for them at the time? That maybe there wasn't some great conspiracy on one side or the other, that no one was out to fuck over anyone else?



Nah, you're right - he lied about everything, he deliberately fucked them all over for a sadistic power trip and the reason he keeps his hair long is to hide the god damn horns. He doesn't just punch kittens, he sticks them in the microwave when he's done with them. Now go look at the lyrics of Perry's solo stuff - it's all there in code, his plan to fuck over every single person in his life who proved to be less than perfect...

uhm...okay...

[RossValoryRocks]

I don't know if Perry cracked the stone, or if he made the band crack it for him, but I do think he jerked them around a bit. After the truncated ROR tour he reportedly told Neal and Jon he couldn't "do this anymore". Apparently, they were thinking in the present tense, as in he just needs a break - for now. Meanwhile, Perry appeared to actually be telling them he didn't want to "do this anymore" as in EVER. Perhaps there were contractual obligations he needed to fulfill with the TBF record. There also seems to be some sentiment expressed in various interviews that members of the band suspected Perry never intended to tour and they were not necessarily surprised that he balked.

My question is, why make the record then leave it to die on the vine without a tour? Unless it is your intention to put a final nail in the Journey coffin.

Fucking hell, do you really need to ask this? Because they made the album and THEN he got sick. It's not rocket science people!!
Shit, do any of you people consider that he had as much to lose financially as they did? Or that maybe, just maybe, no one made any decision for any reason other than it's what seemed best for them at the time? That maybe there wasn't some great conspiracy on one side or the other, that no one was out to fuck over anyone else?



Nah, you're right - he lied about everything, he deliberately fucked them all over for a sadistic power trip and the reason he keeps his hair long is to hide the god damn horns. He doesn't just punch kittens, he sticks them in the microwave when he's done with them. Now go look at the lyrics of Perry's solo stuff - it's all there in code, his plan to fuck over every single person in his life who proved to be less than perfect...

Wow...hostile much??

I am glad you are here to defend Perry...but he doesn't need defending...he made his choice, yes he had as much at stake financially as the rest of the guys did. But he had a responsibility not only to himself here, but also to the 4 other people that comprised the band, the road crew, the management, the promoters and the fans. He made the choice to postpone the surgery, all well and good, but he then refused to even give them any kind of time line, once again abbrogating his responsibility to the people who depended upon him making said decision.

I happen to think Perry is a good guy, I think he made the wrong decision for the right PERSONAL reasons, but in doing so he set aside his responsibilities to others.

Kindly don't try yelling at me. I know the inside story far better than just about anyone here. I have heard both sides from the horses mouth as it were, and I have taken what I heard and made my own decisions as to whom was at fault and from what I know to be true Steve Perry is the one who made the decisions that ultimately ended that particular incarnation of Journey.

You have to make hay while the sunshines and it wasn't fair to anyone BUT Perry to keep waiting and postponing.

[Marabelle]

take it easy there arianddu; it's just a forum. it's just opinions.

[Arianddu]

That wasn't really necessary. There has been no credible argument to dispute the fact that Perry has fucked Journey more than once, and has done so far worse than can be said of Cain or Schon.

Are you just as passionate about defending them when they catch hell?

No, probably not. But I get sick and tired of a health decision being speculated as some kind of deliberate fuck-over.







And I'm cranky and in pain today. Which is a poor excuse, but the only one I have to offer. :oops: