Who Fractured the Stone?

[Perrydise]

I'd like to propose the idea that no one cracked the stone. No one got screwed over. That the transpired events are just a part of a natural course of action for a rock band. And anyone claiming to have been bent over by another party is just playing the victim card for attention or sympathy. (<---Which is NOT a reference to any one side in particular before anyone jumps to assumptions.)

Well said and probably the most accurate.

Then the PR twist of he said/theysaid.

[Perrydise]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

Best decision made!

[Perrydise]

This is going to catch a lot of hell and I haven't the time to engage in a competent debate at the moment, but I'll respond:

Perry.

Perry fractured the stone first in '86, shunting Valory and Smith off to the side for studio musicians and a drum machine because "he just had to have" this new musical direction (forgetting the fact that they were essentially yes-man and he, Cain, and Neal were the ones responsible for the actual movement and direction of the music). And Perry precipitated the fracture of the stone a second time in 1996. The fact that he would later get the reconstructive surgery is proof that he knew from the bottom of his heart that Cain and Neal were correct; he just took his jolly time waiting to have it done. Why would he if he knew it was inevitable? Not to mention the fact that they gave him over a year to decide and that he fucked up a potentially lucrative deal in Chalfant joining the band.

I'm sure you could ration out the blame in all parties, but history shows that Perry shoulders most of it.

WRONG on so many levels Giddy....My father had artery blockage, and his doctor decided to try and handle it with medication FIRST, then when that didn't work - he had Angioplasty. THEN as a LAST resort had open heart surgery and a pacemaker.....You can't tell someone else what route to take with THEIR own body......

Bingo! It is an individual decision which procedures to have done and not to have done. I bet no one told Neal when to have his face done

[RossValoryRocks]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

Best decision made!

I disagree whole heartedly...fire the ruthless bastard who accepted NOTHING but the highest levels of performance and financial gain for them???

Sure the guys had the talent, but HH BUILT Journey. He push, pulled, wheedled, threatened...whatever, to turn them into the monster band they were in the '80's. Let's not forget that HH IS the reason Perry was in Journey.

HH would have done better by Journey than the current management has.

[Jubilee]

That wasn't really necessary. There has been no credible argument to dispute the fact that Perry has fucked Journey more than once, and has done so far worse than can be said of Cain or Schon.

Are you just as passionate about defending them when they catch hell?

No, probably not. But I get sick and tired of a health decision being speculated as some kind of deliberate fuck-over.







And I'm cranky and in pain today. Which is a poor excuse, but the only one I have to offer. :oops:

I totally get it, Ari.

My statement wasn't to question any decisions Perry made related to his health - that's nobodys business but his. What my question was getting at is knowing, or supposing, he really didn't want to do the Journey thing anymore, and knowing he needed to take his time to try to find the right treatment, why not just bow out gracefully? Why keep everything (and everyone) in limbo for such a long time?

[Perrydise]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

Best decision made!

I disagree whole heartedly...fire the ruthless bastard who accepted NOTHING but the highest levels of performance and financial gain for them???

Sure the guys had the talent, but HH BUILT Journey. He push, pulled, wheedled, threatened...whatever, to turn them into the monster band they were in the '80's. Let's not forget that HH IS the reason Perry was in Journey.

HH would have done better by Journey than the current management has.

I agree and disagree. But I think his time had come.

True the current management does lack in many ways.

[RossValoryRocks]

This is going to catch a lot of hell and I haven't the time to engage in a competent debate at the moment, but I'll respond:

Perry.

Perry fractured the stone first in '86, shunting Valory and Smith off to the side for studio musicians and a drum machine because "he just had to have" this new musical direction (forgetting the fact that they were essentially yes-man and he, Cain, and Neal were the ones responsible for the actual movement and direction of the music). And Perry precipitated the fracture of the stone a second time in 1996. The fact that he would later get the reconstructive surgery is proof that he knew from the bottom of his heart that Cain and Neal were correct; he just took his jolly time waiting to have it done. Why would he if he knew it was inevitable? Not to mention the fact that they gave him over a year to decide and that he fucked up a potentially lucrative deal in Chalfant joining the band.

I'm sure you could ration out the blame in all parties, but history shows that Perry shoulders most of it.

WRONG on so many levels Giddy....My father had artery blockage, and his doctor decided to try and handle it with medication FIRST, then when that didn't work - he had Angioplasty. THEN as a LAST resort had open heart surgery and a pacemaker.....You can't tell someone else what route to take with THEIR own body......

Bingo! It is an individual decision which proceedures to have done and not to have done. I bet no one told Neal when to have his face done

LOL on the Neal comment, but you and STM are wrong on the surgery part.

Let's look at this in a real world light:

If you had an injury that prevented you from working as expected, and you could get sugery to fix the problem, and you refused to get the surgery done or even consider scheduling it your employer would probably offer you a severance package and let you go.

Not only that what about his responsibility to the others in the band? The road crew??? The promoter??? And the fans who paitently waited for the tour?

In the end it was Perry that FORCED Journey to move on, and you cannot dispute that.

[RossValoryRocks]

My statement wasn't to question any decisions Perry made related to his health - that's nobodys business but his.

Wrong...when there is a moral and probably contractual responsibility to others who depend on your services for their livelyhoods then it is most certainly the business of the other parties involved, in this case Journey.

See the post above about real world appication of the scenario.

[Jubilee]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

Best decision made!

I disagree whole heartedly...fire the ruthless bastard who accepted NOTHING but the highest levels of performance and financial gain for them???

Sure the guys had the talent, but HH BUILT Journey. He push, pulled, wheedled, threatened...whatever, to turn them into the monster band they were in the '80's. Let's not forget that HH IS the reason Perry was in Journey.

HH would have done better by Journey than the current management has.

There ya go. Say what you will about HH, that guy was a genius. The guys had all the talent in the world, but it was HH who practically invented ways of having Journey's music heard above the din.

[stevew2]

Friga cracked to stone with his gayness

[Arianddu]

This is going to catch a lot of hell and I haven't the time to engage in a competent debate at the moment, but I'll respond:

Perry.

Perry fractured the stone first in '86, shunting Valory and Smith off to the side for studio musicians and a drum machine because "he just had to have" this new musical direction (forgetting the fact that they were essentially yes-man and he, Cain, and Neal were the ones responsible for the actual movement and direction of the music). And Perry precipitated the fracture of the stone a second time in 1996. The fact that he would later get the reconstructive surgery is proof that he knew from the bottom of his heart that Cain and Neal were correct; he just took his jolly time waiting to have it done. Why would he if he knew it was inevitable? Not to mention the fact that they gave him over a year to decide and that he fucked up a potentially lucrative deal in Chalfant joining the band.

I'm sure you could ration out the blame in all parties, but history shows that Perry shoulders most of it.

WRONG on so many levels Giddy....My father had artery blockage, and his doctor decided to try and handle it with medication FIRST, then when that didn't work - he had Angioplasty. THEN as a LAST resort had open heart surgery and a pacemaker.....You can't tell someone else what route to take with THEIR own body......

Bingo! It is an individual decision which proceedures to have done and not to have done. I bet no one told Neal when to have his face done

LOL on the Neal comment, but you and STM are wrong on the surgery part.

Let's look at this in a real world light:

If you had an injury that prevented you from working as expected, and you could get sugery to fix the problem, and you refused to get the surgery done or even consider scheduling it your employer would probably offer you a severance package and let you go.

Not only that what about his responsibility to the others in the band? The road crew??? The promoter??? And the fans who paitently waited for the tour?

In the end it was Perry that FORCED Journey to move on, and you cannot dispute that.

Yes I can, but I'm not going to go over it again; read my far-too-long response to Gideon. Beside which, I have to acknowledge that I'm in pain and in a very bad mood, which means I really shouldn't post about things that irritate me. Thank god Angel isn't posting any more, or there'd really be an Ari-explosion

[Perrydise]

WRONG on so many levels Giddy....My father had artery blockage, and his doctor decided to try and handle it with medication FIRST, then when that didn't work - he had Angioplasty. THEN as a LAST resort had open heart surgery and a pacemaker.....You can't tell someone else what route to take with THEIR own body......

Bingo! It is an individual decision which proceedures to have done and not to have done. I bet no one told Neal when to have his face done

LOL on the Neal comment, but you and STM are wrong on the surgery part.

Let's look at this in a real world light:

If you had an injury that prevented you from working as expected, and you could get sugery to fix the problem, and you refused to get the surgery done or even consider scheduling it your employer would probably offer you a severance package and let you go.

Not only that what about his responsibility to the others in the band? The road crew??? The promoter??? And the fans who paitently waited for the tour?

In the end it was Perry that FORCED Journey to move on, and you cannot dispute that.

[/quote]


In the real world RVR the patient/individual/singer/actor/etc ALWAYS makes the final decision upon what procedure to have done. Most times, patients are given all their options and it becomes their decision. Unless of course he was found incapacitated, then of course a POA would have been involved. Evidently he chose the other options and I have read even tried holistic remedies. It was HIS decision and what happened has happened.

Journey had to make a decision and they did. I am not disputing that. That was a major surgery, sometimes it goes good and sometimes it doesn't. There is a difference between a decision about your physical state and a business decision. Who knows, he could have had a deep seeded fear of a hospital stay, needles, operations etc. There are many many people who still have fears of the dentists. That could be what the problem was.

[Gideon]

What's really indisputable is that Perry fucked up far worse than Neal or Jon ever did. Arianddu has done well enough to not cast Perry quite as harshly in the TBF fiasco, but at the end of the day, he made a career both raising them to success and destroying them bit by bit.

I don't believe he's an irredeemable prick, but his mistakes are made manifest in the major decisions he made that cost the band. Schon and Cain may or may not act like pricks, but their decisions have been justified. The only real assholish thing they did was the way they let Soto go.

[Deb]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

Best decision made!

I disagree whole heartedly...fire the ruthless bastard who accepted NOTHING but the highest levels of performance and financial gain for them???

Sure the guys had the talent, but HH BUILT Journey. He push, pulled, wheedled, threatened...whatever, to turn them into the monster band they were in the '80's. Let's not forget that HH IS the reason Perry was in Journey.

HH would have done better by Journey than the current management has.

There ya go. Say what you will about HH, that guy was a genius. The guys had all the talent in the world, but it was HH who practically invented ways of having Journey's music heard above the din.

Ya, not a big fan of HH, but he DID know stellar pipes when he heard them. Managed two of my all-time favorite vocalists.

[Gideon]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

Best decision made!

I disagree whole heartedly...fire the ruthless bastard who accepted NOTHING but the highest levels of performance and financial gain for them???

Sure the guys had the talent, but HH BUILT Journey. He push, pulled, wheedled, threatened...whatever, to turn them into the monster band they were in the '80's. Let's not forget that HH IS the reason Perry was in Journey.

HH would have done better by Journey than the current management has.

There ya go. Say what you will about HH, that guy was a genius. The guys had all the talent in the world, but it was HH who practically invented ways of having Journey's music heard above the din.

Ya, not a big fan of HH, but he DID know stellar pipes when he heard them. Managed two of my all-time favorite vocalists.

Ross Valory and Jon Cain?

[Rick]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

Best decision made!

I disagree whole heartedly...fire the ruthless bastard who accepted NOTHING but the highest levels of performance and financial gain for them???

Sure the guys had the talent, but HH BUILT Journey. He push, pulled, wheedled, threatened...whatever, to turn them into the monster band they were in the '80's. Let's not forget that HH IS the reason Perry was in Journey.

HH would have done better by Journey than the current management has.

There ya go. Say what you will about HH, that guy was a genius. The guys had all the talent in the world, but it was HH who practically invented ways of having Journey's music heard above the din.

Ya, not a big fan of HH, but he DID know stellar pipes when he heard them. Managed two of my all-time favorite vocalists.

Ross Valory and Jon Cain?

LMMFAO!!!

[Gideon]

It must have been funny to warrant the extra 'm'.

[Deb]

Perry cracked the stone many times:

-Firing Valory and Smith.

-Touring without the guys that waited almost a decade for him.

-Coming back to Journey only to thwart their attempt with another lineup.

-Firing Herbert.

-Agreeing to do an album (TBF) that he had no intentions of ever touring behind.

-Being a douchebag and wasting more of the band's time by not getting done what he knew would eventually have to be done. Fuck, Joe Paterno had his hip replaced at 81 fucking years old and was on his feet in 2 days. Just Perry playing the sympathy card again. Nothing more.

Best decision made!

I disagree whole heartedly...fire the ruthless bastard who accepted NOTHING but the highest levels of performance and financial gain for them???

Sure the guys had the talent, but HH BUILT Journey. He push, pulled, wheedled, threatened...whatever, to turn them into the monster band they were in the '80's. Let's not forget that HH IS the reason Perry was in Journey.

HH would have done better by Journey than the current management has.

There ya go. Say what you will about HH, that guy was a genius. The guys had all the talent in the world, but it was HH who practically invented ways of having Journey's music heard above the din.

Ya, not a big fan of HH, but he DID know stellar pipes when he heard them. Managed two of my all-time favorite vocalists.

Ross Valory and Jon Cain?

Har har har! I guess our definition of stellar pipes must differ.

[stevew2]

Friga did with his fake tears

[Rhiannon]

Got there first!

A lot of women have said you did.

You're on a roll tonight!

I try.

Nooo, Deacon... that's when you come back with, "No I left your Mom over an hour ago." ...Youth today. Miss golden opportunities.

[Rhiannon]

I'd like to propose the idea that no one cracked the stone. No one got screwed over. That the transpired events are just a part of a natural course of action for a rock band. And anyone claiming to have been bent over by another party is just playing the victim card for attention or sympathy. (<---Which is NOT a reference to any one side in particular before anyone jumps to assumptions.)

Well said and probably the most accurate.

Then the PR twist of he said/theysaid.

Thankya. I just get the feeling the long years gave fans too much time to speculate and assume, until they forgot they were speculating to begin with and replaced it as fact. Which that PR twist you speak of doesn't help to dismiss at times.

[Maui Tom]

what a fucking stupid thread...

[Peartree12249]

what a fucking stupid thread...

+1 In the grand scheme of things what possible difference does it make?

[Perrydise]

I'd like to propose the idea that no one cracked the stone. No one got screwed over. That the transpired events are just a part of a natural course of action for a rock band. And anyone claiming to have been bent over by another party is just playing the victim card for attention or sympathy. (<---Which is NOT a reference to any one side in particular before anyone jumps to assumptions.)

Well said and probably the most accurate.

Then the PR twist of he said/theysaid.

Thankya. I just get the feeling the long years gave fans too much time to speculate and assume, until they forgot they were speculating to begin with and replaced it as fact. Which that PR twist you speak of doesn't help to dismiss at times.

And it can probably go one step further Rhi.

They were a money making machine. Something like this happens and money was probably still paid out. This whole conglomeration was INSURED.. They called it a loss and money was paid out.

[Don]

what a fucking stupid thread...

This post is the best thing I've read on this board all fucking weekend.
Thank you Tom.

[Arianddu]

what a fucking stupid thread...

This post is the best thing I've read on this board all fucking weekend.
Thank you Tom.

Spoilsports! Bet you don't believe there was a conspiracy behind the JFK assassination, either!

[annpea]

[

quote="Gideon"]That wasn't really necessary. There has been no credible argument to dispute the fact that Perry has fucked Journey more than once, and has done so far worse than can be said of Cain or Schon.

Are you just as passionate about defending them when they catch hell?

[/quote] It, really doesn't matter anymore who fucked whom; sometime it's best to leave a sleepng dog undisturbed. Can,we all consider for a moment that Schon, Perry,Cain, Valory, and yes even Smith knew before they started the TBF project what would be going down, and it was a win win situation for them all, think about it; Perry was out as he wanted to be, Smith went back to his love, VI. Schon, Cain and Valory got Journey; game over everyone happy.

[annpea]

I'd like to propose the idea that no one cracked the stone. No one got screwed over. That the transpired events are just a part of a natural course of action for a rock band. And anyone claiming to have been bent over by another party is just playing the victim card for attention or sympathy. (<---Which is NOT a reference to any one side in particular before anyone jumps to assumptions.)

Well said and probably the most accurate.

Then the PR twist of he said/theysaid.

Thankya. I just get the feeling the long years gave fans too much time to speculate and assume, until they forgot they were speculating to begin with and replaced it as fact. Which that PR twist you speak of doesn't help to dismiss at times.

And it can probably go one step further Rhi.

They were a money making machine. Something like this happens and money was probably still paid out. This whole conglomeration was INSURED.. They called it a loss and money was paid out.

See, a win, win situation.

[SherriBerry]

I find it interesting that so many speak of Steve Perry's responsibilities to everyone else, as if for some reason everyone else's wellbeing should take greater precedence to him than his own. He had already made what I consider to be a major sacrifice once for the sake of the band when he came back for ROR - he didn't want to make that album because his mother was dying and he wanted to stay with her, but he came through for Journey and made it anyway. I can well assure you that as much as I like my boss I don't owe him my life, and if one of my parents were close to dying, I would spend every waking moment I could with them, not spend more time at work.

Ari gave an insightful and knowledgeable argument for SP hesitating over surgery and the fact that people can read of the risks and what he faced and still insist he was selfish to wait is incredible. How many of you live your life for your company and coworkers and would risk permanent pain and confinement to a wheelchair for the rest of your days by rushing into surgery before you try every alternative? Or demand that of a coworker? Unbelievable. Even once you decide to have surgery, you still need time to research your options, make an informed decision, and find a surgeon that you trust with your life. That doesn't happen overnight and a person has to do what they need to do to get through it. To say that it was just a routine procedure is unreasonable and untrue. It was not routine at the time and even now there are major risks. Even a minor surgery carries the risk of complications or death. I had a minor surgery where the risk of a particular complication was less than 1% - and I got it. Seven surgeries later, I'm hoping technology will advance within the next few years to fix the problem so I can see properly. I take nothing as routine and nothing for granted.

As far as obligations go, the other members of Journey are millionaires many times over. If Gregg Rolie could quit because he had more money than he would ever need in 1980, the rest of the band should never have had to work another day in their lives after Frontiers. If they are in financial straits due to poor personal or financial decisions, that is their responsibility and their problem. It isn't up to Steve Perry to manage their money or bail them out. They took a $4.5M advance on TBF, which was delivered, but only $1M was against a tour according to HH. I'm curious to know which individual in management or the band suggested he could suffer through a tour and sit on a stool while performing - that certainly highlights for me the degree of concern for his wellbeing.

SP did finally concede that he needed surgery and assured the band he was going to have it - he just couldn't give a timeline because he needed to research every option, and as Ari noted, there were many and constantly changing. What kind of friends would give you an ultimatum when it is literally your life at stake? I understand that the band was frustrated and doubtful that SP would tour, but they had a friend who was ill and suffering and instead of standing by him, they auditioned replacements behind his back. Not one of their finer moments.

[annpea]

I find it interesting that so many speak of Steve Perry's responsibilities to everyone else, as if for some reason everyone else's wellbeing should take greater precedence to him than his own. He had already made what I consider to be a major sacrifice once for the sake of the band when he came back for ROR - he didn't want to make that album because his mother was dying and he wanted to stay with her, but he came through for Journey and made it anyway. I can well assure you that as much as I like my boss I don't owe him my life, and if one of my parents were close to dying, I would spend every waking moment I could with them, not spend more time at work.

Ari gave an insightful and knowledgeable argument for SP hesitating over surgery and the fact that people can read of the risks and what he faced and still insist he was selfish to wait is incredible. How many of you live your life for your company and coworkers and would risk permanent pain and confinement to a wheelchair for the rest of your days by rushing into surgery before you try every alternative? Or demand that of a coworker? Unbelievable. Even once you decide to have surgery, you still need time to research your options, make an informed decision, and find a surgeon that you trust with your life. That doesn't happen overnight and a person has to do what they need to do to get through it. To say that it was just a routine procedure is unreasonable and untrue. It was not routine at the time and even now there are major risks. Even a minor surgery carries the risk of complications or death. I had a minor surgery where the risk of a particular complication was less than 1% - and I got it. Seven surgeries later, I'm hoping technology will advance within the next few years to fix the problem so I can see properly. I take nothing as routine and nothing for granted.

As far as obligations go, the other members of Journey are millionaires many times over. If Gregg Rolie could quit because he had more money than he would ever need in 1980, the rest of the band should never have had to work another day in their lives after Frontiers. If they are in financial straits due to poor personal or financial decisions, that is their responsibility and their problem. It isn't up to Steve Perry to manage their money or bail them out. They took a $4.5M advance on TBF, which was delivered, but only $1M was against a tour according to HH. I'm curious to know which individual in management or the band suggested he could suffer through a tour and sit on a stool while performing - that certainly highlights for me the degree of concern for his wellbeing.

SP did finally concede that he needed surgery and assured the band he was going to have it - he just couldn't give a timeline because he needed to research every option, and as Ari noted, there were many and constantly changing. What kind of friends would give you an ultimatum when it is literally your life at stake? I understand that the band was frustrated and doubtful that SP would tour, but they had a friend who was ill and suffering and instead of standing by him, they auditioned replacements behind his back. Not one of their finer moments.

Thank you ! no truer words have ever been written or sproken concerning SP and his former band brothers.