Question about Neal Schon

[Gideon]

I debate on other forums (and on more topics than just music), and on one such occasion, I was pitted against an individual by the username of Alpha Centauri, narcissist extraordinaire. The subject was "your favorite guitarist" and I posted some clips and some facts about Neal Schon. The long and short of it is that this guy and myself end up in a sixty page argument on the talent of Neal Schon. His argument was that "greatness" equates to skill; that Jimi Hendrix, being the greatest guitarist of all time, can do things with a guitar that Neal Schon never could. And so on and so forth for Eddie Van Halen, Steve Vai, and so forth. Because Neal Schon is not a household name, there are countless guitarists who are better than he is in every way.

Now, this debate long since ended, as Alpha Centauri has a lot more stamina for arguing than even myself. But I was just thinking and wondering how talented Neal Schon really is.

Say, for example, "Eruption." Does Neal Schon lack the physical capability (e.g. speed, dexterity, what have you) to play "Eruption"? (AC masturbated over that one).

Note this is not a question about subjective talents, i.e. sense of melody or the singing guitar, but purely about technical skills.

[NealIsGod]

I've always maintained that when you are comparing guitarists at the level of NS and EVH it comes down to whose style you prefer. They can all pretty much play anything.

But creating "Eruption" and playing it are too different things.

[S2M]

I debate on other forums (and on more topics than just music), and on one such occasion, I was pitted against an individual by the username of Alpha Centauri, narcissist extraordinaire. The subject was "your favorite guitarist" and I posted some clips and some facts about Neal Schon. The long and short of it is that this guy and myself end up in a sixty page argument on the talent of Neal Schon. His argument was that "greatness" equates to skill; that Jimi Hendrix, being the greatest guitarist of all time, can do things with a guitar that Neal Schon never could. And so on and so forth for Eddie Van Halen, Steve Vai, and so forth. Because Neal Schon is not a household name, there are countless guitarists who are better than he is in every way.

Now, this debate long since ended, as Alpha Centauri has a lot more stamina for arguing than even myself. But I was just thinking and wondering how talented Neal Schon really is.

Say, for example, "Eruption." Does Neal Schon lack the physical capability (e.g. speed, dexterity, what have you) to play "Eruption"? (AC masturbated over that one).

Note this is not a question about subjective talents, i.e. sense of melody or the singing guitar, but purely about technical skills.

As Steve Perry stated, 'You are putting/selling a feeling on wax'....If a musical passage moves you....the musician has done his/her job. FUCK technical skill.

[Gideon]

I've always maintained that when you are comparing guitarists at the level of NS and EVH it comes down to whose style you prefer. They can all pretty much play anything.

I prefer Schon's, of course, but I do like Eddie Van Halen's style as well.

But creating "Eruption" and playing it are too different things.

Alpha tried to move the goalpost dozens of times, going back and forth between "SCHON COULDNT PLAY ERUPTION!!1!" to "SCHON COULDN'T CREATE ERUPTION!!1!" and those are two different entities, in my book. I'm not arguing that Neal had the innovation or desire to create something like "Eruption." I just want to know if he's sufficiently accomplished to play ridiculously complex stuff, because I'm told all the time that Neal's work isn't hard at all.

(But it sure does sound it)

Edit: S2M, this is also the guy who tried to tell me that Geddy Lee was a more technically skilled singer than Steve Perry.

[Jana]

NEAL'S THOUGHTS ON EVH IN AN INTERVIEW:


What was it like having Van Halen open for you in 1978?

It was like getting your ass kicked every night by the best sword-swinging sushi chef in the land. I had seen a lot of guitar players by then, but I’d never seen anything like him. Somebody had given me that first Van Halen album and I remember sitting with my record player and a guitar trying to figure out what he was doing, and for the first time in my life I was stumped. I had no clue until I saw him and realized he had both hands on the fretboard. I’d met Harvey Mandel years earlier, and saw him do that a couple little tapping things, but Ed was taking everything to a much crazier level.

But it wasn’t just the tapping you dug about EVH, right?
It was everything. Ed is one of the greatest rock and roll guitar players of all time, and, as far as being an innovator and taking it to the hilt, he’s right up there with Jimi and everyone else. And he didn’t come any better than on that first tour with us when we were touring Infinity—our first record with Steve Perry—and he was touring Van Halen’s debut. They opened every night, and Ed played with extreme fire and loose abandon. Ronnie Montrose was supporting, and he hated being in the middle slot. I would tell him, “Man, I’m glad you have to follow that and not me.” [Laughs.]

[Gideon]

NEALS THOUGHTS ON EVH IN AN INTERVIEW:


What was it like having Van Halen open for you in 1978?

It was like getting your ass kicked every night by the best sword-swinging sushi chef in the land. I had seen a lot of guitar players by then, but I’d never seen anything like him. Somebody had given me that first Van Halen album and I remember sitting with my record player and a guitar trying to figure out what he was doing, and for the first time in my life I was stumped. I had no clue until I saw him and realized he had both hands on the fretboard. I’d met Harvey Mandel years earlier, and saw him do that a couple little tapping things, but Ed was taking everything to a much crazier level.

But it wasn’t just the tapping you dug about EVH, right?
It was everything. Ed is one of the greatest rock and roll guitar players of all time, and, as far as being an innovator and taking it to the hilt, he’s right up there with Jimi and everyone else. And he didn’t come any better than on that first tour with us when we were touring Infinity—our first record with Steve Perry—and he was touring Van Halen’s debut. They opened every night, and Ed played with extreme fire and loose abandon. Ronnie Montrose was supporting, and he hated being in the middle slot. I would tell him, “Man, I’m glad you have to follow that and not me.” [Laughs.]

I noted that. But Herbie Herbert said in his interview with MelodicRock that Eddie was just as impressed with Neal as Neal was with him.

[Ehwmatt]

Neal can definitely play Eruption with ease. Eruption, AT THE TIME IT CAME OUT, was pretty daunting because hardly any one knew that Eddie was tapping those arpeggios. Today, Eruption is still cool, but an insurmountable technical tour de force? Definitely not.

Technically speaking, Neal buttfucks Hendrix too. And Neal's not even the most technical of guitar players. Hendrix was innovative, soulful, and a great player in his own right, but I don't think he could play a lot of the shit Neal's played over the years. The one thing that stands out about Neal and possibly limits him is that he mostly sticks to using his index, middle, and ring fingers. I rarely, if ever see him use his pinky and that might hold him back from pulling off some real shred gymnastics, like crazy sweeps, but hey, he still can play some great fast runs and his overall style is great as is. If I want to hear someone more technical, I'll go throw Dream Theater or whoever on.

[S2M]

I've always maintained that when you are comparing guitarists at the level of NS and EVH it comes down to whose style you prefer. They can all pretty much play anything.

I prefer Schon's, of course, but I do like Eddie Van Halen's style as well.

But creating "Eruption" and playing it are too different things.

Alpha tried to move the goalpost dozens of times, going back and forth between "SCHON COULDNT PLAY ERUPTION!!1!" to "SCHON COULDN'T CREATE ERUPTION!!1!" and those are two different entities, in my book. I'm not arguing that Neal had the innovation or desire to create something like "Eruption." I just want to know if he's sufficiently accomplished to play ridiculously complex stuff, because I'm told all the time that Neal's work isn't hard at all.

(But it sure does sound it)

Edit: S2M, this is also the guy who tried to tell me that Geddy Lee was a more technically skilled singer than Steve Perry.

Eddie didn't create Eruption either....it was sniped from Ace Frehley. At least that's what I've been hearing since highschool....

[Don]

Rik Emmitt is near the top of the mountain when it comes to speed guitar and creating your own riffs, .

[NealIsGod]

Eddie didn't create Eruption either....it was sniped from Ace Frehley. At least that's what I've been hearing since highschool....

That's like saying Michael Jackson stole the Moonwalk from Flip Wilson.

[Gideon]

Neal can definitely play Eruption with ease. Eruption, AT THE TIME IT CAME OUT, was pretty daunting because hardly any one knew that Eddie was tapping those arpeggios. Today, Eruption is still cool, but an insurmountable technical tour de force? Definitely not.

Technically speaking, Neal buttfucks Hendrix too. And Neal's not even the most technical of guitar players. Hendrix was innovative, soulful, and a great player in his own right, but I don't think he could play a lot of the shit Neal's played over the years. The one thing that stands out about Neal and possibly limits him is that he mostly sticks to using his index, middle, and ring fingers. I rarely, if ever see him use his pinky and that might hold him back from pulling off some real shred gymnastics, like crazy sweeps, but hey, he still can play some great fast runs and his overall style is great as is. If I want to hear someone more technical, I'll go throw Dream Theater or whoever on.

Thank you, my good man.

So where would you place Neal Schon overall? Is he top tier or not?

[Suzanne]

I debate on other forums (and on more topics than just music), and on one such occasion, I was pitted against an individual by the username of Alpha Centauri, narcissist extraordinaire. The subject was "your favorite guitarist" and I posted some clips and some facts about Neal Schon. The long and short of it is that this guy and myself end up in a sixty page argument on the talent of Neal Schon. His argument was that "greatness" equates to skill; that Jimi Hendrix, being the greatest guitarist of all time, can do things with a guitar that Neal Schon never could. And so on and so forth for Eddie Van Halen, Steve Vai, and so forth. Because Neal Schon is not a household name, there are countless guitarists who are better than he is in every way.

Now, this debate long since ended, as Alpha Centauri has a lot more stamina for arguing than even myself. But I was just thinking and wondering how talented Neal Schon really is.

Say, for example, "Eruption." Does Neal Schon lack the physical capability (e.g. speed, dexterity, what have you) to play "Eruption"? (AC masturbated over that one).

Note this is not a question about subjective talents, i.e. sense of melody or the singing guitar, but purely about technical skills.

As Steve Perry stated, 'You are putting/selling a feeling on wax'....If a musical passage moves you....the musician has done his/her job. FUCK technical skill.

Well said! I couldn't agree more.

[Ehwmatt]

Rik Emmitt is near the top of the mountain when it comes to speed guitar and creating your own riffs, .

There are so many great guitarists out there, it really is impossible to rate them if you keep an objective mind. One thing that can tip the scales away from my liking a guitarist is his live performances. If they aren't that good, sloppy, or original at all, I might just not think too highly of him any more. I can't really think of any one I've seen live that wasn't great though...

[Ehwmatt]

Neal can definitely play Eruption with ease. Eruption, AT THE TIME IT CAME OUT, was pretty daunting because hardly any one knew that Eddie was tapping those arpeggios. Today, Eruption is still cool, but an insurmountable technical tour de force? Definitely not.

Technically speaking, Neal buttfucks Hendrix too. And Neal's not even the most technical of guitar players. Hendrix was innovative, soulful, and a great player in his own right, but I don't think he could play a lot of the shit Neal's played over the years. The one thing that stands out about Neal and possibly limits him is that he mostly sticks to using his index, middle, and ring fingers. I rarely, if ever see him use his pinky and that might hold him back from pulling off some real shred gymnastics, like crazy sweeps, but hey, he still can play some great fast runs and his overall style is great as is. If I want to hear someone more technical, I'll go throw Dream Theater or whoever on.

Thank you, my good man.

So where would you place Neal Schon overall? Is he top tier or not?

I mean, there's probably a million guys, some who are just bedroom shredders, who can play shit Neal can't. But for me, he's one of my faves and I don't think anyone could play him off the stage. He's world-class for sure.

[Don]

Rik Emmitt is near the top of the mountain when it comes to speed guitar and creating your own riffs, .

There are so many great guitarists out there, it really is impossible to rate them if you keep an objective mind. One thing that can tip the scales away from my liking a guitarist is his live performances. If they aren't that good, sloppy, or original at all, I might just not think too highly of him any more. I can't really think of any one I've seen live that wasn't great though...

I'm just going by the stuff Rik does live, especially on the US Festival DVD, amazing.

When you see 300,000 people thrusting their arms in the air in time with the guitar at the beginning of "Word Of Fantasy" it's just a beautiful sight to behold. How many times in their life doe guitarists get to achieve that kind of response from an audience?

[Onestepper]

The argument doesn't make sense to me. I think NS is one of the best guitarists in the world, but I know people that can't stand him or Journey. Doesn't make me or them right or wrong. I will admit that I like his stuff pre-Arrival better, as I believe it was more skillful and complete. I've heard EVH sound like shit, just like I've heard Neal on some bad nights. It's an argument I would never attempt to win (not saying you were trying to 'win' it Gideon).

[Don]

The argument doesn't make sense to me. I think NS is one of the best guitarists in the world, but I know people that can't stand him or Journey. Doesn't make me or them right or wrong. I will admit that I like his stuff pre-Arrival better, as I believe it was more skillful and complete. I've heard EVH sound like shit, just like I've heard Neal on some bad nights. It's an argument I would never attempt to win (not saying you were trying to 'win' it Gideon).

This makes sense, once you reach a certain point you are either good or shit. Neal and Eddie are definitely on the good side of the fence.

[Gideon]

The argument doesn't make sense to me. I think NS is one of the best guitarists in the world, but I know people that can't stand him or Journey. Doesn't make me or them right or wrong. I will admit that I like his stuff pre-Arrival better, as I believe it was more skillful and complete. I've heard EVH sound like shit, just like I've heard Neal on some bad nights. It's an argument I would never attempt to win (not saying you were trying to 'win' it Gideon).

No, I understand, and what you're saying makes sense. But it's not quite what I meant. Whether or not you like Neal Schon is a completely subjective decision. Whether you like anyone is completely subjective.

But technical skill is not subjective. For example, there are people out in this world who obviously think Jon Bon Jovi is a better singer than Steve Perry. But even a brief analysis or familiarity with their respective catalogues yields only one logical conclusion: Perry kicks JBJ's ass in terms of range, power, control, phrasing. You name it, Perry is better than Bon Jovi.

That doesn't mean you have to like him better. I'm not wondering if Neal Schon is a better guitarist; I'm asking him if he could play Eddie Van Halen's shit.

[bluejeangirl76]

this is also the guy who tried to tell me that Geddy Lee was a more technically skilled singer than Steve Perry.

Funny you say that. And I don't agree, but some of the vocalizations are similar at certain specific moments. And no blasting... I'm not about to say either sounds like the other, but a couple times I've been caught going "holy crap that reminded me a whole lot of Perry."

[steveo777]

Neal Schon generally doesn't get a lot of love when it comes to rankings. I don't understand this. His sound is very recognizable. Try changing him out for a different guitarist in Journey and you would see a backlash that would rival any protest of lead singer changeouts. It would truely mean the end.

[Gideon]

this is also the guy who tried to tell me that Geddy Lee was a more technically skilled singer than Steve Perry.

Funny you say that. And I don't agree, but some of the vocalizations are similar at certain specific moments. And no blasting... I'm not about to say either sounds like the other, but a couple times I've been caught going "holy crap that reminded me a whole lot of Perry."

Both Lee and Perry operate(d) at higher registers. Once you get to a certain pitch, there are moments where singers are going to sound similar in tonality. Now, I used to detest Geddy Lee; and then I heard "Time Stand Still." He's still not a world-class singer, in my opinion. An enormously high register does not lend you the accolade of vocal juggernaut. Perry, on the other hand, kicked major ass in all technical aspects of singing, whereas Geddy Lee did not.

[S2M]

Neal Schon generally doesn't get a lot of love when it comes to rankings. I don't understand this. His sound is very recognizable. Try changing him out for a different guitarist in Journey and you would see a backlash that would rival any protest of lead singer changeouts. It would truely mean the end.

Yeah....Neal suffers from the 'Vivian Campbell in Def Leppard' syndrome. Once in Dio and Whitesnake he left 2 heavy rock bands to join bubblegum music. People look a tJourney and think, 'They ain't got balls, Neal sucks!'....true story.

[Don]

Neal Schon generally doesn't get a lot of love when it comes to rankings. I don't understand this. His sound is very recognizable. Try changing him out for a different guitarist in Journey and you would see a backlash that would rival any protest of lead singer changeouts. It would truely mean the end.

Neal's rep is fucked because of all the ballads that he has had to play on, especially Open Arms. That song and Hard Rock guitarist just don't go together. Who's crying now is a different story. Perry went to bat for Neal to keep Sony from cutting the solo off at the end for the radio play and it saves the song from becoming another Dan Hill, love lost piece of shit.

[pdsidd]

I debate on other forums (and on more topics than just music), and on one such occasion, I was pitted against an individual by the username of Alpha Centauri, narcissist extraordinaire. The subject was "your favorite guitarist" and I posted some clips and some facts about Neal Schon. The long and short of it is that this guy and myself end up in a sixty page argument on the talent of Neal Schon. His argument was that "greatness" equates to skill; that Jimi Hendrix, being the greatest guitarist of all time, can do things with a guitar that Neal Schon never could. And so on and so forth for Eddie Van Halen, Steve Vai, and so forth. Because Neal Schon is not a household name, there are countless guitarists who are better than he is in every way.

Now, this debate long since ended, as Alpha Centauri has a lot more stamina for arguing than even myself. But I was just thinking and wondering how talented Neal Schon really is.

Say, for example, "Eruption." Does Neal Schon lack the physical capability (e.g. speed, dexterity, what have you) to play "Eruption"? (AC masturbated over that one).

Note this is not a question about subjective talents, i.e. sense of melody or the singing guitar, but purely about technical skills.

Technique is not everything, dexterity is not everything, range is not everything, music is everything.
The argument is endless so don't start it - Who's best? Neal Schon, Eric Clapton, Eddy Van Halen, Satriani, Steve Vai, Jimmy Page, Frank Marino, Charlie Birchill, Ty Tabor, Dave Gilmour, Ritchie Blackmore, Alex Lifeson?, who can say? The common factor is that they've all made great music and continue to do so. For that we should be thankful.

[bluejeangirl76]

Both Lee and Perry operate(d) at higher registers. Once you get to a certain pitch, there are moments where singers are going to sound similar in tonality. Now, I used to detest Geddy Lee; and then I heard "Time Stand Still." He's still not a world-class singer, in my opinion. An enormously high register does not lend you the accolade of vocal juggernaut. Perry, on the other hand, kicked major ass in all technical aspects of singing, whereas Geddy Lee did not.

Correct. So imagine my suprise in my car listening to Rush on the radio and thinking "Wtf?! Did I just hear...?" Or maybe it was more like "Wtf did I just hear?" I hear slight similarities to '78 - '80 Perry. (I said SLIGHT, loons... )

[Gideon]

I debate on other forums (and on more topics than just music), and on one such occasion, I was pitted against an individual by the username of Alpha Centauri, narcissist extraordinaire. The subject was "your favorite guitarist" and I posted some clips and some facts about Neal Schon. The long and short of it is that this guy and myself end up in a sixty page argument on the talent of Neal Schon. His argument was that "greatness" equates to skill; that Jimi Hendrix, being the greatest guitarist of all time, can do things with a guitar that Neal Schon never could. And so on and so forth for Eddie Van Halen, Steve Vai, and so forth. Because Neal Schon is not a household name, there are countless guitarists who are better than he is in every way.

Now, this debate long since ended, as Alpha Centauri has a lot more stamina for arguing than even myself. But I was just thinking and wondering how talented Neal Schon really is.

Say, for example, "Eruption." Does Neal Schon lack the physical capability (e.g. speed, dexterity, what have you) to play "Eruption"? (AC masturbated over that one).

Note this is not a question about subjective talents, i.e. sense of melody or the singing guitar, but purely about technical skills.

Technique is not everything, dexterity is not everything, range is not everything, music is everything.
The argument is endless so don't start it - Who's best? Neal Schon, Eric Clapton, Eddy Van Halen, Satriani, Steve Vai, Jimmy Page, Frank Marino, Charlie Birchill, Ty Tabor, Dave Gilmour, Ritchie Blackmore, Alex Lifeson?, who can say? The common factor is that they've all made great music and continue to do so. For that we should be thankful.

You people can't simply answer the question and move on, can you?

The bottom line is that the argument was started and I'm not debating who's music is better, because that is an endless argument. I'm debating something that can be gauged objectively: technical ability.

[steveo777]

Impossible question. I don't think it can be answered.

[Gideon]

Impossible question. I don't think it can be answered.

[steveo777]

Impossible question. I don't think it can be answered.

You mean this isn't obvious to you yet? Hell, you went thru a relentless debate on another forum and it still wasn't resolved.

Ok, Neal is technically the uber-guitar god.....just so you can sleep a little better.

[Gideon]

You mean this isn't obvious to you yet? Hell, you went thru a relentless debate on another forum and it still wasn't resolved.

If your concept of "answer" means that it stops the argument entirely, I think you'll come to find that there are no truths in this world. People will argue over anything; even if there is an absolute, incontrovertible answer.

The fact that I couldn't get this guy to shut the fuck up doesn't mean it's still open for debate. Ya dig?

Ok, Neal is technically the uber-guitar god.....just so you can sleep a little better.

He is. I just wanted to know if he could play "Eruption", which was AC's big measuring stick.