Arnel Solo Album?

[stevew2]

The statue has nothing to do with Journey or the American music industry in particular, This is a Pinoy thing and we will give a statue to whoever we damn well please ...even to Winnie the Pooh or to Ron Jeremy

Winnie the Pooh... now THERE is a mofo who deserves a statue.

At least people (outside MR and journeymusic.com) know who he is.

i think someone should ERECT a statue for Ron Jeremey {although has no testicles}

[Gideon]

Easy argument to make. Contrary to what the brainwashed here at MR tend to believe, there are other and better managers out there than Herbie Herbert you know. Perry isn't stupid, his horrible grammar on BTM aside, he wasn't going to remain in the San Joaquin valley in 100 degree heat and dust constructing turkey coops. Someone would have found him. While Schon and perry had definite chemistry, Perry could have made it anyway, with another guitarist. It would have sounded different to be sure, but he would have made it, no doubt. Now on the other hand, Schon, Valory, Rolie and Herbert weren't making it when perry came along, were they? Playing the Wharf in front of lobster eating tourists on Sunday afternoons for 2 bucks wasn't going to rocket them to to the top of the charts.

That's just it, Deano, you can't make that sort of argument. It's speculative in nature. Neal Schon was a child prodigy who, apparently, impressed giants like Eric Clapton and Carlos Santana to no end as a mere teenager; connections Steve Perry simply did not have at the time he joined Journey. And yet you tell me without a glimmer of doubt that he would have no career without Steve Perry? And in contrast, you have a man who lacked those connections and that foundation -- someone who admitted that he was on the verge of "hanging up his rock and roll shoes" -- and you state, matter-of-fact, that he would have made it?

There's no basis for that. The fact of the matter is that as his options were fading, Herbie Herbert, Neal Schon, and Gregg Rolie gave Steve Perry his career. It happened to be mutually beneficial, as he was the catalyst to breathe new life into that band.

[skinsguy]

Well, he mentioned in Behind the Music that he "probably" wouldn't do it [firing Ross and Steve] again if he could go back and do it over. Not quite apologetic enough for my taste.

And the TBF "Fiasco" as you called it was a darn good album. Sure, it didn't rock like Frontiers or Escape did, but it was a well put together album.

It's actually my favorite.

Eh....tomato, tomahto....What would you have wanted Perry to have done? Gotten on his knees and have told Smith and Valory to have spread eagle?

Like I said, the most intelligent thing to do is to look at all sides and what has been said on all sides. Every band member has spoken truths as well as spun things to make them look like saints. It's human nature. To dump everything on Perry is stupid, as well as putting all the blame on Schon or Cain. I suspect that there was untold struggle amongst egos from early on, and it eventually came out in the late 80's....and unfortunately carried on throughout the 90's. While these musicians and vocalist made magical tunes together, they probably are just very different people in the end.

An actual apology would have been nice. For the record, I don't believe for a second that any member of the band has been evil incarnate. But Perry's contributions to the problem tend to get overlooked. Who knew that a nice voice is the reprieve for culpability?

I'm sure there was an actual apology behind closed doors. We the fans don't need to be apologized to in that respect.

[jrnyman28]

As far as hits, it's a different time. If Perry comes out with a new album, I guarantee you, it won't be a multiplatinum hit. WHY? Because the record companies couldn't find and promote a hit record if it bit them in the ass. We've been here before with FTLOSM- it wasn't the huge hit everyone was saying it would be.

Look at Bruce's and U2's latest CDs to see that even SUPERSTARS cannot sell albums in today's environment. One isn't Gold and the other is just barely.

[madsplash]

Hey Gideon:

Stone Fracture #1. Untold Passion 1981 Schon & Hammer
#2. Here to Stay 1982 Schon & Hammer

Wether or not Neal says they sounded like Journey or not, he did these albums before Perry did his.
And of course SP's album is gonna sound like Journey, it's his voice that was known as the sound of Journey byt that point.
As a guitarist, it's much easier to play in different sounding styles, that a vocalist changing the way they sound.

Bottom line: Neal wrote/co wrote songs for these records away from Journey. I have no problem with him doing that, but he shouldn't be crying about Perry fracturing the stone, when he did it first.

Even though, let's face it, it was Perry's stone at that point. Before he got there, there wasn't the same stone. Journey was a great band, but not the meteor that exploded with SP's voice.

I don't blame NS for his "Schon and Hammer" project or Steve Perry for "Street Talk." It didn't take time away from Journey.

OK. I thought that's what you considered the major part of fracturing the stone. Tell me again, how Perry did it first?
He didn't record albums with other people first. I can't remember what you thought was the first fracture.

The firing of Smith and Valory would have been approved by Neal and Jon.

"Against the Wall" and "For the Love of Strange Medicine."

OK, but ATW was done while J wasn't recording or touring, just like Street Talk. The fact he burned out 2 years before and wanted a break, then got over personal stuff and wanted to write and record again about his own personal issues without the band, doesn't mean he didn't want to be in J anymore, as seen after he did another personal album with TBF.

Now if you say he did TBF to keep the band from reforming with Chalfant, than why didn't he fight harder to keep the band from going on with Arnel. He could have prolonged it legally for YEARS and didn't. Took a buyout and moved on.

[Rockindeano]

Neal recording solo albums did not 'crack the stone', nor did Perry's solo. But the amount of leverage obtained by Perry's commercial success from Street Talk led to him cracking it.

Finish it Dave- you almost got it all...That point you just made, plus the fact Herbie was not promoting Street talk was really starting to drive the wedge. Herbie and Neal were close, as everyone knows, and this IMO, pissed off Perry to no end, and I can't say I blame him one iota.

I am starting to hate Herbert now.

[jrnyman28]

Winnie the Pooh is a he? I always thought Winnie is a female because of his name and the fact that he is wearing a red hanging shirt that exposes his belly button. Perhaps he's gay? Stevew2 would know...he is the final arbiter on who is gay or not.

I always thought he was a he, but what about TWEETY?

[Gideon]

Well, he mentioned in Behind the Music that he "probably" wouldn't do it [firing Ross and Steve] again if he could go back and do it over. Not quite apologetic enough for my taste.

And the TBF "Fiasco" as you called it was a darn good album. Sure, it didn't rock like Frontiers or Escape did, but it was a well put together album.

It's actually my favorite.

Eh....tomato, tomahto....What would you have wanted Perry to have done? Gotten on his knees and have told Smith and Valory to have spread eagle?

Like I said, the most intelligent thing to do is to look at all sides and what has been said on all sides. Every band member has spoken truths as well as spun things to make them look like saints. It's human nature. To dump everything on Perry is stupid, as well as putting all the blame on Schon or Cain. I suspect that there was untold struggle amongst egos from early on, and it eventually came out in the late 80's....and unfortunately carried on throughout the 90's. While these musicians and vocalist made magical tunes together, they probably are just very different people in the end.

An actual apology would have been nice. For the record, I don't believe for a second that any member of the band has been evil incarnate. But Perry's contributions to the problem tend to get overlooked. Who knew that a nice voice is the reprieve for culpability?

I'm sure there was an actual apology behind closed doors. We the fans don't need to be apologized to in that respect.

That's right.

In fact, the only Steve Perry personal decision that bothers me as a fan is the time lost between 1986 and 1996. As a person, it sucks to see the band's history of indiscretions when it comes to their personnel. As a fan, I'm in it for the music and only care about the problems when it costs the band time. As a debater, it annoys me when one party is villified and another party enjoys saint-status despite his fair share of the blame.

If people acknowledge that Perry was an ass, as well as the rest of the band, I'd move on without complaint.

[Gideon]

Hey Gideon:

Stone Fracture #1. Untold Passion 1981 Schon & Hammer
#2. Here to Stay 1982 Schon & Hammer

Wether or not Neal says they sounded like Journey or not, he did these albums before Perry did his.
And of course SP's album is gonna sound like Journey, it's his voice that was known as the sound of Journey byt that point.
As a guitarist, it's much easier to play in different sounding styles, that a vocalist changing the way they sound.

Bottom line: Neal wrote/co wrote songs for these records away from Journey. I have no problem with him doing that, but he shouldn't be crying about Perry fracturing the stone, when he did it first.

Even though, let's face it, it was Perry's stone at that point. Before he got there, there wasn't the same stone. Journey was a great band, but not the meteor that exploded with SP's voice.

I don't blame NS for his "Schon and Hammer" project or Steve Perry for "Street Talk." It didn't take time away from Journey.

OK. I thought that's what you considered the major part of fracturing the stone. Tell me again, how Perry did it first?
He didn't record albums with other people first. I can't remember what you thought was the first fracture.

The firing of Smith and Valory would have been approved by Neal and Jon.

"Against the Wall" and "For the Love of Strange Medicine."

OK, but ATW was done while J wasn't recording or touring, just like Street Talk. The fact he burned out 2 years before and wanted a break, then got over personal stuff and wanted to write and record again about his own personal issues without the band, doesn't mean he didn't want to be in J anymore, as seen after he did another personal album with TBF.

Now if you say he did TBF to keep the band from reforming with Chalfant, than why didn't he fight harder to keep the band from going on with Arnel. He could have prolonged it legally for YEARS and didn't. Took a buyout and moved on.

Why wasn't the band touring, Madsplash?

[mdaemon]

Well, he mentioned in Behind the Music that he "probably" wouldn't do it [firing Ross and Steve] again if he could go back and do it over. Not quite apologetic enough for my taste.

And the TBF "Fiasco" as you called it was a darn good album. Sure, it didn't rock like Frontiers or Escape did, but it was a well put together album.

It's actually my favorite.

Eh....tomato, tomahto....What would you have wanted Perry to have done? Gotten on his knees and have told Smith and Valory to have spread eagle?

Like I said, the most intelligent thing to do is to look at all sides and what has been said on all sides. Every band member has spoken truths as well as spun things to make them look like saints. It's human nature. To dump everything on Perry is stupid, as well as putting all the blame on Schon or Cain. I suspect that there was untold struggle amongst egos from early on, and it eventually came out in the late 80's....and unfortunately carried on throughout the 90's. While these musicians and vocalist made magical tunes together, they probably are just very different people in the end.

An actual apology would have been nice. For the record, I don't believe for a second that any member of the band has been evil incarnate. But Perry's contributions to the problem tend to get overlooked. Who knew that a nice voice is the reprieve for culpability?

I'm sure there was an actual apology behind closed doors. We the fans don't need to be apologized to in that respect.

...and Neal and Jon apologized to Soto too for the way they let go of him. Behind closed doors of course.... just like Perry did

...but I guess Friga and Fro would not have done that...because they are such douche bags

[brywool]

OK, but ATW was done while J wasn't recording or touring, just like Street Talk. .

But Journey wasn't recording at that time BECAUSE Perry was 'burned out'.

[Rockindeano]

...and Neal and Jon apologized to Soto too for the way they let go of him. Behind closed doors of course.... just like Perry did

Before I respond, are you being serious or sarcastic?

[Gideon]

Why wasn't the band touring, Madsplash?

But Journey wasn't recording at that time BECAUSE Perry was 'burned out'.

Correct.

[brywool]

Neal recording solo albums did not 'crack the stone', nor did Perry's solo. But the amount of leverage obtained by Perry's commercial success from Street Talk led to him cracking it.

Finish it Dave- you almost got it all...That point you just made, plus the fact Herbie was not promoting Street talk was really starting to drive the wedge. Herbie and Neal were close, as everyone knows, and this IMO, pissed off Perry to no end, and I can't say I blame him one iota.

I am starting to hate Herbert now.

Deano, why do you say he wasn't promoting that? There were videos all over the place, I heard the songs from ST everywhere I went. Was that not Herbert's doing?

[kgdjpubs]

Neal recording solo albums did not 'crack the stone', nor did Perry's solo. But the amount of leverage obtained by Perry's commercial success from Street Talk led to him cracking it.

Finish it Dave- you almost got it all...That point you just made, plus the fact Herbie was not promoting Street talk was really starting to drive the wedge. Herbie and Neal were close, as everyone knows, and this IMO, pissed off Perry to no end, and I can't say I blame him one iota.

I am starting to hate Herbert now.

Actually, I believe Perry's solo debut did pretty darn well compared to a lot of singers that went solo. Lou Gramm's 1st album didn't do anything (neither did the 2nd really). Phil Collins made several albums before hitting the bigtime. Same with Billy Joel, Rod Stewart, even Springsteen.

The simple fact of the matter is marketing. Journey was a known quantity in 1984 and had a built in audience. People know WHO Perry was, but as a solo artist, he was not known--and certainly did not have a built-in audience awaiting his solo album with baited breath. By nature, a Journey album would sell more than a debut Perry album. By all accounts, Perry's solo album did considerably better than most singers who went out without the band. If Perry had continued the solo albums, by 1989-90, he might have been a viable solo artist and could conceivably be outselling Journey. Expecting that feat on your first album is simply naive.

[madsplash]

Hey Gideon:

Stone Fracture #1. Untold Passion 1981 Schon & Hammer
#2. Here to Stay 1982 Schon & Hammer

Wether or not Neal says they sounded like Journey or not, he did these albums before Perry did his.
And of course SP's album is gonna sound like Journey, it's his voice that was known as the sound of Journey byt that point.
As a guitarist, it's much easier to play in different sounding styles, that a vocalist changing the way they sound.

Bottom line: Neal wrote/co wrote songs for these records away from Journey. I have no problem with him doing that, but he shouldn't be crying about Perry fracturing the stone, when he did it first.

Even though, let's face it, it was Perry's stone at that point. Before he got there, there wasn't the same stone. Journey was a great band, but not the meteor that exploded with SP's voice.

I don't blame NS for his "Schon and Hammer" project or Steve Perry for "Street Talk." It didn't take time away from Journey.

OK. I thought that's what you considered the major part of fracturing the stone. Tell me again, how Perry did it first?
He didn't record albums with other people first. I can't remember what you thought was the first fracture.

The firing of Smith and Valory would have been approved by Neal and Jon.

"Against the Wall" and "For the Love of Strange Medicine."

OK, but ATW was done while J wasn't recording or touring, just like Street Talk. The fact he burned out 2 years before and wanted a break, then got over personal stuff and wanted to write and record again about his own personal issues without the band, doesn't mean he didn't want to be in J anymore, as seen after he did another personal album with TBF.

Now if you say he did TBF to keep the band from reforming with Chalfant, than why didn't he fight harder to keep the band from going on with Arnel. He could have prolonged it legally for YEARS and didn't. Took a buyout and moved on.

Why wasn't the band touring, Madsplash?

Because their leader wanted to stop and they stopped. He was calling the shots, no doubt.
Have you ever wanted to stop doing something, go away from it for a while, and then wanted to get back to it?

[brywool]

...and Neal and Jon apologized to Soto too for the way they let go of him. Behind closed doors of course.... just like Perry did

Before I respond, are you being serious or sarcastic?

Also, on the JSS thing- For those of you that've been in bands, or business- have you ever hired a person and then thought "This person is just not going to work out?" for WHATEVER reason? I've seen that in bands for years. It's gotta be the right chemistry both on and off stage or nothing good will happen.

[skinsguy]

That's just it, Deano, you can't make that sort of argument. It's speculative in nature. Neal Schon was a child prodigy who, apparently, impressed giants like Eric Clapton and Carlos Santana to no end as a mere teenager; connections Steve Perry simply did not have at the time he joined Journey. And yet you tell me without a glimmer of doubt that he would have no career without Steve Perry? And in contrast, you have a man who lacked those connections and that foundation -- someone who admitted that he was on the verge of "hanging up his rock and roll shoes" -- and you state, matter-of-fact, that he would have made it?

There's no basis for that. The fact of the matter is that as his options were fading, Herbie Herbert, Neal Schon, and Gregg Rolie gave Steve Perry his career. It happened to be mutually beneficial, as he was the catalyst to breathe new life into that band.

Steve Perry wasn't about to hang up the rock career because he was having a hard time making a career of it. He was about ready to hang up his voice because his bassist was killed in a car accident. And really, how do you know Perry didn't or couldn't have had connections like Schon had in the music business? That is going on a lot of assumption as well. And quite frankly, it's one of those arguments that is pointless to make, considering that Perry and Schon have/had a great career in the music biz. That is fact. Perry seems quite happy where he's at currently and so is Journey. Both, at least to the rest of us, seems like facts in themselves. Downing Perry and throwing up doubt that he would have made it in the music business without Journey is just a pointless argument to make. You don't know him personally, neither do I. His talent, as well as Schon's, are both talents that people would have had to have been deaf, dumb, and blind not to have noticed. So, if neither would have made it in the music business, then I would really question the sanity of those running the business (like I am question those running the business in the current state.)

[brywool]

Because their leader wanted to stop and they stopped. He was calling the shots, no doubt.
Have you ever wanted to stop doing something, go away from it for a while, and then wanted to get back to it?

Not the "leader" but the lead singer. They really couldn't do anything without him. But for him to say to Journey "I'm toast, I've got nothing left" and then to turn around and record his OWN album after saying that to Journey isn't exactly a clean slate.

[mdaemon]

...and Neal and Jon apologized to Soto too for the way they let go of him. Behind closed doors of course.... just like Perry did

Before I respond, are you being serious or sarcastic?

Sarcastic....but not for the reason you probably think.

If one can speculate that Perry apologized to a fellow band member, then wouldn't it be fair that some can speculate that Jon and Neal apologized to an ex band member for the way they treated him? No one would speculate that though because Neal and Jon are treated as evil by default by the majority of people here.

[madsplash]

OK, but ATW was done while J wasn't recording or touring, just like Street Talk. .

But Journey wasn't recording at that time BECAUSE Perry was 'burned out'.

He was burned out 2 years before he did ATW. Isn't that enough time for someone to get refreshed? Now why didn't he do another J record right away, I guess you could wonder that, but doing another solo album needn't have fractured the stone. It didn't after Street Talk. He came back after that. He would have again and DID with TBF.

[Gideon]

Because their leader wanted to stop and they stopped. He was calling the shots, no doubt.

You've alluded to this before, but let's make one thing certain: Steve Perry's "authority" does not excuse his actions. Power is never justification. You might as well excuse Adolf Hitler's crimes against humanity because he was the legally appointed leader of Nazi Germany.

Have you ever wanted to stop doing something, go away from it for a while, and then wanted to get back to it?

Absolutely.

Except that his whole basis for postponing the band was: "I'm tired..." and "I'm burned out..." and "I'm dry." Two years later, he tries to create a solo album, thus invalidating his claims. Had he went back to Journey rather than make a solo album, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Alas, karma kicks in and Perry's solo album is bitchslapped into limbo. A few years later, he tries it again. It's a relative success and he begins touring before illness kicks in and he's forced to truncate it. He comes back to a Trial By Fire reunion during the time when Kevin Chalfant is allegedly about to be named singer. When sickness kicks in and two more years piss along by, the band decides to move on.

The kicker is that Steve Perry complains at that point: "Don't fracture the stone!!1!"

It's the very nature of hypocrisy.

[slucero]

Hey Gideon:

Stone Fracture #1. Untold Passion 1981 Schon & Hammer
#2. Here to Stay 1982 Schon & Hammer

Wether or not Neal says they sounded like Journey or not, he did these albums before Perry did his.
And of course SP's album is gonna sound like Journey, it's his voice that was known as the sound of Journey byt that point.
As a guitarist, it's much easier to play in different sounding styles, that a vocalist changing the way they sound.

Bottom line: Neal wrote/co wrote songs for these records away from Journey. I have no problem with him doing that, but he shouldn't be crying about Perry fracturing the stone, when he did it first.

Even though, let's face it, it was Perry's stone at that point. Before he got there, there wasn't the same stone. Journey was a great band, but not the meteor that exploded with SP's voice.

I don't blame NS for his "Schon and Hammer" project or Steve Perry for "Street Talk." It didn't take time away from Journey.

OK. I thought that's what you considered the major part of fracturing the stone. Tell me again, how Perry did it first?
He didn't record albums with other people first. I can't remember what you thought was the first fracture.

The firing of Smith and Valory would have been approved by Neal and Jon.

If my memory serves me correctly, Smitty was fired because he wasn't interested in playing to a click track... and Larry Londin was a studio drummer who was quite adept at it. Smitty did play on 2 tracks on ROR. Both he and Ross also continue to receive residuals from RR to this day...

In fairness... John and Neal weren't the the albums producer...Perry was... and he didn't want them so he fired them... just like Mutt Lange forced Joe Elliot to fire Pete Willis...

Bottom line - Perry's to blame for this, he's even owned it as his fault... and admitted in hindsight he wouldn't have done it. Trying to place some of that blame on Neal and Jon doesn't wash.

[Gideon]

That's just it, Deano, you can't make that sort of argument. It's speculative in nature. Neal Schon was a child prodigy who, apparently, impressed giants like Eric Clapton and Carlos Santana to no end as a mere teenager; connections Steve Perry simply did not have at the time he joined Journey. And yet you tell me without a glimmer of doubt that he would have no career without Steve Perry? And in contrast, you have a man who lacked those connections and that foundation -- someone who admitted that he was on the verge of "hanging up his rock and roll shoes" -- and you state, matter-of-fact, that he would have made it?

There's no basis for that. The fact of the matter is that as his options were fading, Herbie Herbert, Neal Schon, and Gregg Rolie gave Steve Perry his career. It happened to be mutually beneficial, as he was the catalyst to breathe new life into that band.

Steve Perry wasn't about to hang up the rock career because he was having a hard time making a career of it. He was about ready to hang up his voice because his bassist was killed in a car accident. And really, how do you know Perry didn't or couldn't have had connections like Schon had in the music business? That is going on a lot of assumption as well. And quite frankly, it's one of those arguments that is pointless to make, considering that Perry and Schon have/had a great career in the music biz. That is fact. Perry seems quite happy where he's at currently and so is Journey. Both, at least to the rest of us, seems like facts in themselves. Downing Perry and throwing up doubt that he would have made it in the music business without Journey is just a pointless argument to make. You don't know him personally, neither do I. His talent, as well as Schon's, are both talents that people would have had to have been deaf, dumb, and blind not to have noticed. So, if neither would have made it in the music business, then I would really question the sanity of those running the business (like I am question those running the business in the current state.)

Alien Project dissolved because of the death of his bassist, thus Perry going into retirement.

[madsplash]

Because their leader wanted to stop and they stopped. He was calling the shots, no doubt.
Have you ever wanted to stop doing something, go away from it for a while, and then wanted to get back to it?

Not the "leader" but the lead singer. They really couldn't do anything without him. But for him to say to Journey "I'm toast, I've got nothing left" and then to turn around and record his OWN album after saying that to Journey isn't exactly a clean slate.

Again 1 1/2 to 2 years after he got burned out. Why didn't he run back to J, maybe he wanted to write about the personal shit he had just been through without the help of others. Again, he would have gone back eventually, and did on TBF.

[skinsguy]

Alien Project dissolved because of the death of his bassist, thus Perry going into retirement.

Right! That's what I said. I just didn't mention his band's name.

[Gideon]

Because their leader wanted to stop and they stopped. He was calling the shots, no doubt.
Have you ever wanted to stop doing something, go away from it for a while, and then wanted to get back to it?

Not the "leader" but the lead singer. They really couldn't do anything without him. But for him to say to Journey "I'm toast, I've got nothing left" and then to turn around and record his OWN album after saying that to Journey isn't exactly a clean slate.

Again 1 1/2 to 2 years after he got burned out. Why didn't he run back to J, maybe he wanted to write about the personal shit he had just been through with the help of others. Again, he would have gone back eventually, and did on TBF.

Another argument, my friend, that doesn't wash. As you are wont to point out, Steve Perry was "Journey's leader." And exercised a great deal of control with the band. It's not exactly as though they were going to refuse or reject his written songs and it's not as though the army of songwriters he hired for his solo projects are anywhere close to the caliber of Jonathan Cain or Neal Schon.

So I'm curious as to how the bolded part is relevant.

[Gideon]

Alien Project dissolved because of the death of his bassist, thus Perry going into retirement.

Right! That's what I said. I just didn't mention his band's name.

Your argument was that Perry went into retirement because the man died, not because he was having a hard time making it. Except... that's clearly the case. He didn't retire out of remorse or depression; he retired because the band fell apart.

[jrnyman28]

Alien Project dissolved because of the death of his bassist, thus Perry going into retirement.

Right! That's what I said. I just didn't mention his band's name.

Your argument was that Perry went into retirement because the man died, not because he was having a hard time making it. Except... that's clearly the case. He didn't retire out of remorse or depression; he retired because the band fell apart.

Sorry Gideon, but as far as I have seen, it has always been said that it was the death of his friend and bandmate that led him to hang up the mic.

[Carla777]

Just curious. If Arnel would, for whatever reason, leave Journey, would his time with the band make you want to buy a solo album of his?

yes i will..BUT only if was a rock album, not like the one he make before..is not my thing