President Barack Obama - Term 1 and 2 Thread

[RossValoryRocks]

if the u.s. condones torture of others then our men and women in uniform will also be tortured. there is no room for such barbaric tactics.

That is ABSOLUTE and UTTER BULLSHIT. First and foremost the Islamic terrorists don't care if WE torture...if they get their hands on one of our brave soldiers, Marines, or Airmen...they will be tortured, then killed regardless of how humane we treat their people.

[The Sushi Hunter]

if the u.s. condones torture of others then our men and women in uniform will also be tortured. there is no room for such barbaric tactics.

That is ABSOLUTE and UTTER BULLSHIT. First and foremost the Islamic terrorists don't care if WE torture...if they get their hands on one of our brave soldiers, Marines, or Airmen...they will be tortured, then killed regardless of how humane we treat their people.

They behead American's no questions asked. It must be nice being on the side who if caught all they have to worry about is being sent to a nice place where they can practice their religion, sleep in a comfortable bed every night and get fresh malto meal for breakfast every day. Plus have a shit-load of anti-American American's squawking about how bad and unfair America is for sending these terrorists to jail. People need to wake up and smell the fucking coffee! Terrorists kill Americans period. And its a problem that isn't going away anytime soon, because they believe they are right killing Americans.

Had America fought against the Japanese in WWII like they are fighting the terrorists over in Iraq now, we'd a fucking lost that war.

[Lula]

if the u.s. condones torture of others then our men and women in uniform will also be tortured. there is no room for such barbaric tactics.

That is ABSOLUTE and UTTER BULLSHIT. First and foremost the Islamic terrorists don't care if WE torture...if they get their hands on one of our brave soldiers, Marines, or Airmen...they will be tortured, then killed regardless of how humane we treat their people.

i never said other countries would follow our lead. i'm saying torture is wrong-period. if our country participates in a barbaric act we can expect the same. the u.s. has been a standard bearer for human rights and the last thing i want to see is this great nation go down a path that will surely ruin all we stand for. if some of you think torture is okay that is your business, i tend to be a bit more humane.

as far as all the abortion talk..... yeah, not getting into it with this group again. it is a personal choice and as long as it is legal i will support a woman's right to choose.

[Lula]

oh please! all of the detainees at gitmo are terrorists? or is it enemy combatants? oh wait, they're just being held... we don't know much of anything. weren't they taken by c130s from their country and brought to gitmo? we see things differently, obviously. i'd hate to be held captive by the likes of you people.

[treetopovskaya]

i think i know where lula stands on abortion. prolly the same as me. in cases of rape, if the mother/baby is at risk... if the baby has some health issues... but some people are just irresponsible. they do use abortion as a form of birth control.

what about partial birth abortion? obama is pro-partial birth isn't he? hmm.

i just don't get it!!

we're worried about how our gov treats terrorist. how we torture them. well obama ordered for some to be killed a couple weeks ago. wtf? i find it just so hypocritical.

sometimes i think dems & reps just like to argue... even when it goes against common sense.

... and how do we know it hasn't?

any person in our government that authorized torture of another human being should be held accountable.

Couldn't you just say you're against torture, but support it when it would save the life of the mother....er, I mean thousands of innocent men, women and CHILDREN???

Wow... that's deep. If folks keep it civil, this could be a REALLY good debate.

So far it's been pretty good. RWF has been a little hard on Lula, but she's tough and can handle him I think. I think his point is valid, and would like to see folks talk about it without throwing out insults to intelligence to those that don't agree with someone's POV. This stuff is much more interesting, IMO, than talk about taxes and all that other crap.

Well I promise to keep it civil, mainly because I have no interest talking about a personal issue such as abortion. it is a personal issue that includes a person's private possession: her body. You, me, nor anyone else, Uncle Sam included, cannot tell anyone else what to do with their body. End of story.

You Cons want no abortion, then try winning a few elections and get a republican president and hope Ginsburg and Souter pass away so Gingrich can make the appropriate nomination. Like any of what I just mentioned will happen any time soon, with your party being so far removed from anything remotely relevant.

It's only personal when it suits the situation. It's not so personal when women are shouting out loud for the right to have one. I have never said I want no abortion, I just don't want it to be used for birth control due to lack of personal responsibility. Roe v. Wade will never be overturned by any supreme court, so that is a moot point. As for being relevant, I agree with that somewhat, but not for the reason that you do. I believe that too many of us have remained quiet and allowed the wacky end of the liberal spectrum to run roughshod over us by screaming that their rights are being violated, and we're too dumb or too weak or too afraid to stand up and say we won't tolerate it. We get bullied into compliance, and it's a shame.

But Dean, since you responded, you would be a great one to start off. Can you compare and contrast the use of 'torture' vs a woman's right to kill her unborn child? I'd like to know your thoughts on it, as well as those of Stu, Dave, TNC, Tree, Lula and anyone else who wants to weigh in.

[The Sushi Hunter]

if the u.s. condones torture of others then our men and women in uniform will also be tortured. there is no room for such barbaric tactics.

That is ABSOLUTE and UTTER BULLSHIT. First and foremost the Islamic terrorists don't care if WE torture...if they get their hands on one of our brave soldiers, Marines, or Airmen...they will be tortured, then killed regardless of how humane we treat their people.

i never said other countries would follow our lead. i'm saying torture is wrong-period. if our country participates in a barbaric act we can expect the same. the u.s. has been a standard bearer for human rights and the last thing i want to see is this great nation go down a path that will surely ruin all we stand for. if some of you think torture is okay that is your business, i tend to be a bit more humane.

as far as all the abortion talk..... yeah, not getting into it with this group again. it is a personal choice and as long as it is legal i will support a woman's right to choose.

Have you heard of the Geneva Convention Lula. You refering to when some of the military personnel made some of the prisoners stand naked and put dog leashes on them and that stupid shit? That's exactly what it was....stupid shit, but was it beheading, burning, cutting off limbs and raping? Not even close. I was in the military and we were initiated when we crossed the equator. It was about like what some of those military personnel did to those prisoners, did stupid shit and make us look stupid for a little while. No big deal.

[Lula]

if the u.s. condones torture of others then our men and women in uniform will also be tortured. there is no room for such barbaric tactics.

That is ABSOLUTE and UTTER BULLSHIT. First and foremost the Islamic terrorists don't care if WE torture...if they get their hands on one of our brave soldiers, Marines, or Airmen...they will be tortured, then killed regardless of how humane we treat their people.

i never said other countries would follow our lead. i'm saying torture is wrong-period. if our country participates in a barbaric act we can expect the same. the u.s. has been a standard bearer for human rights and the last thing i want to see is this great nation go down a path that will surely ruin all we stand for. if some of you think torture is okay that is your business, i tend to be a bit more humane.

as far as all the abortion talk..... yeah, not getting into it with this group again. it is a personal choice and as long as it is legal i will support a woman's right to choose.

Have you heard of the Geneva Convention Lula. You refering to when some of the military personnel made some of the prisoners stand naked and put dog leashes on them and that stupid shit? That's exactly what it was....stupid shit, but was it beheading, burning, cutting off limbs and raping? Not even close. I was in the military and we were initiated when we crossed the equator. It was about like what some of those military personnel did to those prisoners, did stupid shit and make us look stupid for a little while. No big deal.

i'm talking about torture- water boarding fits the description.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Waterboarding -v- death you choose..

It's a bogus argument and one that, like so many here, gives the President cover to act like a King.
If waterboarding is a legit tactic, pull out of the treaties and make it legal.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Have you heard of the Geneva Convention Lula. You refering to when some of the military personnel made some of the prisoners stand naked and put dog leashes on them and that stupid shit? That's exactly what it was....stupid shit, but was it beheading, burning, cutting off limbs and raping?

Actually, sodomy, beatings, and death were all reported at Abu Ghraib.
Contrary to Limbaugh and the other Bush apologists, it was not a case of a "few bad apples" engaged in roughhousing.
The behavior was dictated from the very top and memos with Rumsfeld's signature confirm this.

[G.I.Jim]

Fact Finder...I agree with you 100%, and I appreciate you posting the pictures. Sometimes I think this country (Or at least some of the residents here in MR) need a reminder of who we're dealing with. Life does suck sometimes, but you know what? If we didn't use the techniques we use for obtaining information (feel free to call the methods whatever the hell you want to), we'd have a hell of a lot more dead INNOCENT Americans than we do already.

Do you people honestly think the terrorists (I'm sorry...I meant Insurgents ) give a rats ass what we do to people? They would just as soon behead every American in this country, than open up any form of dialog. You can't carry on dialog with murderers, and that's ALL these assholes are. They don't fall under the rules of the Geneva Convention, as they aren't soldiers from another foreign government...they are freaking MURDERERS.

I guarantee you (Lulu, Dan, and several others on here) that if a terrorist had info about the lives (or lack thereof) of one of your loved ones, and you knew the military could get that info from them to save that person's life.....you'd be singing a different tune about us using our methods then. A son, daughter, or spouse that was kidnapped, held by terrorists. They aren't talking, and they spit in the faces of the interviewers stating that they can "Fuck off!!!". If you knew that they knew the wearabouts of your loved one, would you just say "Well, they just don't want to talk, so let's leave them alone"??? I'd don't think so.

[G.I.Jim]

Have you heard of the Geneva Convention Lula. You refering to when some of the military personnel made some of the prisoners stand naked and put dog leashes on them and that stupid shit? That's exactly what it was....stupid shit, but was it beheading, burning, cutting off limbs and raping?

Actually, sodomy, beatings, and death were all reported at Abu Ghraib.
Contrary to Limbaugh and the other Bush apologists, it was not a case of a "few bad apples" engaged in roughhousing.
The behavior was dictated from the very top and memos with Rumsfeld's signature confirm this.

Can we see these memos? I'd really like to see where this was dictated from Rumsfeld to Sodomize, beat, and murder the inmates. Thanks!

[The_Noble_Cause]

I have kept pretty silent about BO so far, but I am not pleased with his behavior on his various trips around the world. He should hold his head high and be proud to be the leader of the greatest country in the world, not falling all over himself apologizing for what he sees as our shortcomings.

Quote?

[The_Noble_Cause]

Can we see these memos? I'd really like to see where this was dictated from Rumsfeld to Sodomize, beat, and murder the inmates. Thanks!

In other words, you'd rather pin the blame on the US troops following orders rather than people in charge?
While "sodomy" was never ordered per se, it happened.
And John Yoo's and Rumsfeld's "anything goes" policy is all but an open secret.
Here's one such Rummy memo OKing stress positions.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2004 ... 22doc5.pdf

[Rockindeano]

Fuck you Fact Finder. Had your Goddamned dumbshit president stopped and read the fucking national security briefings, of which one Madeline Albright of all people relayed to the new White House that the Muslims are intending to use our passenger planes as weapons against us, those pictures might not be here today.

Now, I will use your ridiculous argument against you-

Read Security briefings or 5,000 killed?

[The_Noble_Cause]

Had America fought against the Japanese in WWII like they are fighting the terrorists over in Iraq now, we'd a fucking lost that war.

Actually, the Japanese engaged in waterboarding in WW2. They lost, and we prosecuted them for torture.

[G.I.Jim]

Can we see these memos? I'd really like to see where this was dictated from Rumsfeld to Sodomize, beat, and murder the inmates. Thanks!

In other words, you'd rather pin the blame on the US troops following orders rather than people in charge?
While "sodomy" was never ordered per se, it happened.
And John Yoo's and Rumsfeld's "anything goes" policy is all but an open secret.
Here's one such Rummy memo OKing stress positions.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2004 ... 22doc5.pdf

Have you read the fucking memo? It states that he authorizes non-injurious contact such as grabbing, poking in the chest, and light pushing. I can clearly see were you could interperet Sodomy, Beatings and murder! That's fucking retarded!!! I've seen worse things on a damn kindergarden playground than what's listed in the memo...I can see how this memo equates to our soldiers being beheaded.

[Rockindeano]

Had America fought against the Japanese in WWII like they are fighting the terrorists over in Iraq now, we'd a fucking lost that war.

Actually, the Japanese engaged in waterboarding in WW2. They lost, and we prosecuted them for torture.

You fucker, I had that same exact sentence typed up and ready to post. You hack in to my account?

[The_Noble_Cause]

It's called debate. Is it ok or not to kill a 6 month old fetus, yet dunking a terrorist in water so 5000 people are saved is wrong?

One's legal, the other's a war crime.
Gotta problem?
Pull out of the treaties and change the law.

[G.I.Jim]

Had America fought against the Japanese in WWII like they are fighting the terrorists over in Iraq now, we'd a fucking lost that war.

Actually, the Japanese engaged in waterboarding in WW2. They lost, and we prosecuted them for torture.

That's because they were soldiers fighting for a country, NOT murderers or terrorists!

[Rockindeano]

If I were on the Con team here, I would present this argument instead of the one you currently use, of which i am not sure what exactly it is you dumb fuckers are mumbling about.

If I were a Con, I would propose use of the hydrogen/neutron bomb and be done with it. Why argue?

I am willing to bet many here on your side would vote yes for bomb droppage on Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.

[RossValoryRocks]

Waterboarding -v- death you choose..

It's a bogus argument and one that, like so many here, gives the President cover to act like a King.
If waterboarding is a legit tactic, pull out of the treaties and make it legal.

Ok Mr. Rule of law...those treaties are only binding between the countries that signed them. We will never waterboard, say a Russian, or a Chinese soldier. This subhuman beings that think that killing ALL of us will somehow get them 72 virgins and a better place in Eternity are no signees to these treaties.

They are not soldiers in the army of some country they are fanatics will would cut off your head no matter what you say, and they would do it with no regrets, no feelings of shame, and secure in their moral superiority over you, oh and with no discussion of the nicities of the "rule of law"

You are hopelessly naieve and if they win, you will be one of the first to go, as you are undoubtedly a secularist and don't fit in the world view they espouse.

Convert or die, that is their way.

It is easy for you who have never so much as lifted a finger to serve your country to spout off rhetorical hyperbole about how evil we who have chosen to do so are. The primary role of the government is to PROTECT IT'S PEOPLE, by whatever means neccesary. You and others like you would have us roll over and let the animals win. I pity you, because you don't have the strength of will to acutally stand up and defend yourself, your fellow citizens or your country.

Deano at the very least served, I don't agree with him, but he put himself and his life on the line. You who bask in the freedom provided by people like Dean, and Carl and myself and yet feel it neccesary to tell us how evil we are being should just shut the fuck up once in awhile and enjoy the fact your have your freedom.

You are a contemptable person and should I ever meet you I will spit in your face you coward.

[G.I.Jim]

Fuck you Fact Finder. Had your Goddamned dumbshit president stopped and read the fucking national security briefings, of which one Madeline Albright of all people relayed to the new White House that the Muslims are intending to use our passenger planes as weapons against us, those pictures might not be here today.

Now, I will use your ridiculous argument against you-

Read Security briefings or 5,000 killed?

Deano, terrorists have planned every method of attack against our country that could possibly be conceived. They read threats every damn day, and there is NO way that ANY president could have known (Based on the threat) that it would actually happen. They've detailed plans against railways, Nuclear power plants, subway stations, and nearly every public sporting event held in the country...what was he supposed to do...shut down the country? Come on! I know you have more common sense than that. If he had hard evidence, he would have done anything in his power to stop that attack. To say otherwise is just stupid.

[Rockindeano]

Had America fought against the Japanese in WWII like they are fighting the terrorists over in Iraq now, we'd a fucking lost that war.

Actually, the Japanese engaged in waterboarding in WW2. They lost, and we prosecuted them for torture.

That's because they were soldiers fighting for a country, NOT murderers or terrorists!

I can't quite separate terrorizing an entire city like NYC i 9/11 or secretly flying over Hawaii and dropping bombs on our boys while they relaxed on a Sunday afternoon. WTF the difference? Japan wanted our people dead, just like Al Qaeda does.

[Rockindeano]

Fuck you Fact Finder. Had your Goddamned dumbshit president stopped and read the fucking national security briefings, of which one Madeline Albright of all people relayed to the new White House that the Muslims are intending to use our passenger planes as weapons against us, those pictures might not be here today.

Now, I will use your ridiculous argument against you-

Read Security briefings or 5,000 killed?

Deano, terrorists have planned every method of attack against our country that could possibly be conceived. They read threats every damn day, and there is NO way that ANY president could have known (Based on the threat) that it would actually happen. They've detailed plans against railways, Nuclear power plants, subway stations, and nearly every public sporting event held in the country...what was he supposed to do...shut down the country? Come on! I know you have more common sense than that. If he had hard evidence, he would have done anything in his power to stop that attack. To say otherwise is just stupid.

While I agree with you on the point of not being able to stop all attacks, and Obama will likely suffer one as well, it sounds as if you are excusing the lack of even reading the fucking briefings.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Have you read the fucking memo? It states that he authorizes non-injurious contact such as grabbing, poking in the chest, and light pushing. I can clearly see were you could interperet Sodomy, Beatings and murder!

I explicitly said there is no paper trail of sodomy being ordered.
That was reported in the New Yorker.
The memos by Bush's legal team gave the necessary go-ahead for such abuses to occur (as documented by the Red Cross and others).

More torture memos: http://www.texscience.org/reform/torture/

[Gideon]

Had America fought against the Japanese in WWII like they are fighting the terrorists over in Iraq now, we'd a fucking lost that war.

Actually, the Japanese engaged in waterboarding in WW2. They lost, and we prosecuted them for torture.

That's because they were soldiers fighting for a country, NOT murderers or terrorists!

I can't quite separate terrorizing an entire city like NYC i 9/11 or secretly flying over Hawaii and dropping bombs on our boys while they relaxed on a Sunday afternoon. WTF the difference? Japan wanted our people dead, just like Al Qaeda does.

I guess Jim could argue that it was a legitimate military target as opposed to a civilian tower. But you could counter with the fact that they didn't declare on us at that point.

[Ehwmatt]

I see the merits in both sides here re: torture.

All I will say is this someone in the thread earlier remarked about the notions of civil liberties/the rights of the accused being taken so far in this country as to trump those of the victims/those who need it most. I'm inclined to agree with that. I analogize it to the notion of abusing anything else... your body, social contacts, job etc... you abuse something long enough and hard enough, and it will wither and cease to fulfill its original purpose. Sadly, I feel that that is what it has come to in this day of political correctness. The spirit of our morals/laws/way of life is being lost somewhere along the way in the search for extremes on either side of the aisle... Food for thought.

[RossValoryRocks]

Had America fought against the Japanese in WWII like they are fighting the terrorists over in Iraq now, we'd a fucking lost that war.

Actually, the Japanese engaged in waterboarding in WW2. They lost, and we prosecuted them for torture.

That's because they were soldiers fighting for a country, NOT murderers or terrorists!

I can't quite separate terrorizing an entire city like NYC i 9/11 or secretly flying over Hawaii and dropping bombs on our boys while they relaxed on a Sunday afternoon. WTF the difference? Japan wanted our people dead, just like Al Qaeda does.

You also don't study history I see. The Japanese wanted our armed forces in the Pacific to be crippled while they concoted their "Greater East Asia Co-Properity Sphere", they didn't want us to convert or die.

The terrorists of today woudl happily murder every one of us and repopulate the US and dance on our grave.

Your simplistic arguement is not up to even your admittedly low standards Dean, try again.

I am a bit salty today and am ready for a fight, so bring it on, I will happily thrash you in Cyberspace, then make you buy me a beer next week in Philly.

[G.I.Jim]

If I were on the Con team here, I would present this argument instead of the one you currently use, of which i am not sure what exactly it is you dumb fuckers are mumbling about.

If I were a Con, I would propose use of the hydrogen/neutron bomb and be done with it. Why argue?

I am willing to bet many here on your side would vote yes for bomb droppage on Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.

Fuck no I wouldn't, and that's an ignorant statement. I would NEVER condone attacking civillians. And this is where you Libs would say "Well, do you disapprove the dropping of the bombs in Japan???", and I would say that yes...I do. I'm glad we won the war, but dropping on innocent civillians is not okay in my book. There...I answered your question for you in advance.

[RossValoryRocks]

If I were on the Con team here, I would present this argument instead of the one you currently use, of which i am not sure what exactly it is you dumb fuckers are mumbling about.

If I were a Con, I would propose use of the hydrogen/neutron bomb and be done with it. Why argue?

I am willing to bet many here on your side would vote yes for bomb droppage on Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.

Fuck no I wouldn't, and that's an ignorant statement. I would NEVER condone attacking civillians. And this is where you Libs would say "Well, do you disapprove the dropping of the bombs in Japan???", and I would say that yes...I do. I'm glad we won the war, but dropping on innocent civillians is not okay in my book. There...I answered your question for you in advance.

We killed more people in the fire bombing of Dresden than were killed in BOTH atomic bomb blasts.

We killed more people in the fire bombing of Tokyo than were killed in BOTH atomic bomb blasts.

The invasion of Japan would have cost well over 2 million Japanese civilian deaths, and several hundred thousand dead US soldiers...we did the right thing.