President Barack Obama - Term 1 and 2 Thread

[Rockindeano]

If I were on the Con team here, I would present this argument instead of the one you currently use, of which i am not sure what exactly it is you dumb fuckers are mumbling about.

If I were a Con, I would propose use of the hydrogen/neutron bomb and be done with it. Why argue?

I am willing to bet many here on your side would vote yes for bomb droppage on Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.

Fuck no I wouldn't, and that's an ignorant statement. I would NEVER condone attacking civillians. And this is where you Libs would say "Well, do you disapprove the dropping of the bombs in Japan???", and I would say that yes...I do. I'm glad we won the war, but dropping on innocent civillians is not okay in my book. There...I answered your question for you in advance.

Well how many dead innocent Iraqi's blood do we wear on our hands today? And because of a lie?

Not implying you are doing jumping jacks in celebration Jim, but that is some food for thought.

[Rockindeano]

Waterboarding -v- death you choose..

It's a bogus argument and one that, like so many here, gives the President cover to act like a King.
If waterboarding is a legit tactic, pull out of the treaties and make it legal.

Ok Mr. Rule of law...those treaties are only binding between the countries that signed them. We will never waterboard, say a Russian, or a Chinese soldier. This subhuman beings that think that killing ALL of us will somehow get them 72 virgins and a better place in Eternity are no signees to these treaties.

They are not soldiers in the army of some country they are fanatics will would cut off your head no matter what you say, and they would do it with no regrets, no feelings of shame, and secure in their moral superiority over you, oh and with no discussion of the nicities of the "rule of law"

You are hopelessly naieve and if they win, you will be one of the first to go, as you are undoubtedly a secularist and don't fit in the world view they espouse.

Convert or die, that is their way.

It is easy for you who have never so much as lifted a finger to serve your country to spout off rhetorical hyperbole about how evil we who have chosen to do so are. The primary role of the government is to PROTECT IT'S PEOPLE, by whatever means neccesary. You and others like you would have us roll over and let the animals win. I pity you, because you don't have the strength of will to acutally stand up and defend yourself, your fellow citizens or your country.

Deano at the very least served, I don't agree with him, but he put himself and his life on the line. You who bask in the freedom provided by people like Dean, and Carl and myself and yet feel it neccesary to tell us how evil we are being should just shut the fuck up once in awhile and enjoy the fact your have your freedom.

You are a contemptable person and should I ever meet you I will spit in your face you coward.

I did serve, but so what? How can you talk the way you do to a guy (TNC), who is obviously educated and presents his arguments in pretty good fashion. I served not for only people who are like minded with myself Stu, but I served for Democrats, Republicans, Indie's Cons, Libs, Gays, Catholics, Muslims, Blacks, Jews, etc. An American citizen is an American citizen. I can't separate a shitty American from a standout American.

If one of us lose, we all lose-

I for one like a dissenting opinion, a different take on things and a contradictory stance. It makes for a better and thorough argument. TNC has my respect, as you do.

[G.I.Jim]

Waterboarding -v- death you choose..

It's a bogus argument and one that, like so many here, gives the President cover to act like a King.
If waterboarding is a legit tactic, pull out of the treaties and make it legal.

Ok Mr. Rule of law...those treaties are only binding between the countries that signed them. We will never waterboard, say a Russian, or a Chinese soldier. This subhuman beings that think that killing ALL of us will somehow get them 72 virgins and a better place in Eternity are no signees to these treaties.

They are not soldiers in the army of some country they are fanatics will would cut off your head no matter what you say, and they would do it with no regrets, no feelings of shame, and secure in their moral superiority over you, oh and with no discussion of the nicities of the "rule of law"

You are hopelessly naieve and if they win, you will be one of the first to go, as you are undoubtedly a secularist and don't fit in the world view they espouse.

Convert or die, that is their way.

It is easy for you who have never so much as lifted a finger to serve your country to spout off rhetorical hyperbole about how evil we who have chosen to do so are. The primary role of the government is to PROTECT IT'S PEOPLE, by whatever means neccesary. You and others like you would have us roll over and let the animals win. I pity you, because you don't have the strength of will to acutally stand up and defend yourself, your fellow citizens or your country.

Deano at the very least served, I don't agree with him, but he put himself and his life on the line. You who bask in the freedom provided by people like Dean, and Carl and myself and yet feel it neccesary to tell us how evil we are being should just shut the fuck up once in awhile and enjoy the fact your have your freedom.

You are a contemptable person and should I ever meet you I will spit in your face you coward.

I did serve, but so what? How can you talk the way you do to a guy (TNC), who is obviously educated and presents his arguments in pretty good fashion. I served not for only people who are like minded with myself Stu, but I served for Democrats, Republicans, Indie's Cons, Libs, Gays, Catholics, Muslims, Blacks, Jews, etc. An American citizen is an American citizen. I can't separate a shitty American from a standout American.

If one of us lose, we all lose-

I for one like a dissenting opinion, a different take on things and a contradictory stance. It makes for a better and thorough argument. TNC has my respect, as you do.

I thought you just stated last week that you only enlisted for the college benefits?

[Blueskies]

Waterboarding -v- death you choose..

It's a bogus argument and one that, like so many here, gives the President cover to act like a King.
If waterboarding is a legit tactic, pull out of the treaties and make it legal.

Ok Mr. Rule of law...those treaties are only binding between the countries that signed them. We will never waterboard, say a Russian, or a Chinese soldier. This subhuman beings that think that killing ALL of us will somehow get them 72 virgins and a better place in Eternity are no signees to these treaties.

They are not soldiers in the army of some country they are fanatics will would cut off your head no matter what you say, and they would do it with no regrets, no feelings of shame, and secure in their moral superiority over you, oh and with no discussion of the nicities of the "rule of law"

You are hopelessly naieve and if they win, you will be one of the first to go, as you are undoubtedly a secularist and don't fit in the world view they espouse.

Convert or die, that is their way.

It is easy for you who have never so much as lifted a finger to serve your country to spout off rhetorical hyperbole about how evil we who have chosen to do so are. The primary role of the government is to PROTECT IT'S PEOPLE, by whatever means neccesary. You and others like you would have us roll over and let the animals win. I pity you, because you don't have the strength of will to acutally stand up and defend yourself, your fellow citizens or your country.

Deano at the very least served, I don't agree with him, but he put himself and his life on the line. You who bask in the freedom provided by people like Dean, and Carl and myself and yet feel it neccesary to tell us how evil we are being should just shut the fuck up once in awhile and enjoy the fact your have your freedom.

You are a contemptable person and should I ever meet you I will spit in your face you coward.

Two points I would like to state in disagreement with your post....

1.) In regards to the torture issue : If you resort to the same kinds of disreputable tactics as your enemies then you are no better then they are and therefore negate your justification for fighting against them in the first place.

2.) To tell TNC that since he hasn't worn a uniform then he has no right to state his opinions on what goes on with his country and the governing of it is a ridiculous argument. Any citizen has a right to form an opinion and be heard. If only those that have served in the military have a right to have an opinion then why aren't they only ones allowed to vote? Why isn't a military service required to be President then? You also lost points in your argument for getting mad enough at someone who disagrees with you to tell them you would " spit in their face" if you met them in person.

imo

[The_Noble_Cause]

The invasion of Japan would have cost well over 2 million Japanese civilian deaths, and several hundred thousand dead US soldiers...we did the right thing.

Then why did Truman lie to the American people and depict Hiroshima as only "a military target."
Eisenhower later admitted the bombing was not necessary.

[G.I.Jim]

If I were on the Con team here, I would present this argument instead of the one you currently use, of which i am not sure what exactly it is you dumb fuckers are mumbling about.

If I were a Con, I would propose use of the hydrogen/neutron bomb and be done with it. Why argue?

I am willing to bet many here on your side would vote yes for bomb droppage on Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan.

Fuck no I wouldn't, and that's an ignorant statement. I would NEVER condone attacking civillians. And this is where you Libs would say "Well, do you disapprove the dropping of the bombs in Japan???", and I would say that yes...I do. I'm glad we won the war, but dropping on innocent civillians is not okay in my book. There...I answered your question for you in advance.

Well how many dead innocent Iraqi's blood do we wear on our hands today? And because of a lie?

Not implying you are doing jumping jacks in celebration Jim, but that is some food for thought.

Not that many considering...and none of them intentionally, unlike the people we are fighting. We have at least tried to conduct a smart war and limit civillian casualties. Not something you can say about the enimy. They'd blow up every fucking daycare and kindergarden school they could if they were given the chance.

And how do you KNOW I'm not doing jumping jacks? BTW...we call them side-straddle hops you homo!

[RossValoryRocks]

Waterboarding -v- death you choose..

It's a bogus argument and one that, like so many here, gives the President cover to act like a King.
If waterboarding is a legit tactic, pull out of the treaties and make it legal.

Ok Mr. Rule of law...those treaties are only binding between the countries that signed them. We will never waterboard, say a Russian, or a Chinese soldier. This subhuman beings that think that killing ALL of us will somehow get them 72 virgins and a better place in Eternity are no signees to these treaties.

They are not soldiers in the army of some country they are fanatics will would cut off your head no matter what you say, and they would do it with no regrets, no feelings of shame, and secure in their moral superiority over you, oh and with no discussion of the nicities of the "rule of law"

You are hopelessly naieve and if they win, you will be one of the first to go, as you are undoubtedly a secularist and don't fit in the world view they espouse.

Convert or die, that is their way.

It is easy for you who have never so much as lifted a finger to serve your country to spout off rhetorical hyperbole about how evil we who have chosen to do so are. The primary role of the government is to PROTECT IT'S PEOPLE, by whatever means neccesary. You and others like you would have us roll over and let the animals win. I pity you, because you don't have the strength of will to acutally stand up and defend yourself, your fellow citizens or your country.

Deano at the very least served, I don't agree with him, but he put himself and his life on the line. You who bask in the freedom provided by people like Dean, and Carl and myself and yet feel it neccesary to tell us how evil we are being should just shut the fuck up once in awhile and enjoy the fact your have your freedom.

You are a contemptable person and should I ever meet you I will spit in your face you coward.

I did serve, but so what? How can you talk the way you do to a guy (TNC), who is obviously educated and presents his arguments in pretty good fashion. I served not for only people who are like minded with myself Stu, but I served for Democrats, Republicans, Indie's Cons, Libs, Gays, Catholics, Muslims, Blacks, Jews, etc. An American citizen is an American citizen. I can't separate a shitty American from a standout American.

If one of us lose, we all lose-

I for one like a dissenting opinion, a different take on things and a contradictory stance. It makes for a better and thorough argument. TNC has my respect, as you do.

First he uses big words but is hardly educated...he doesn't even present good arguements, just trash dug up on (usually) sites that have an obvious left wing slant. He has no regard for anyone therefore I have no regard for him.

He doesn't understand history, economics or law, he simply parrots the blatherings of the left fringe of this country.

You on the other hand come by your opinions, as I disagree with them, honestly and put some thought into it.

And as for how I talk to him...have you actually seen what he calls people on here??? And who the hell are YOU to lecture me or anyone else on the correct way to talk to someone??? LOL That is REALLY funny.

I am in a pissed off mood tonight and I am itching for a good fight, since the wife won't let me go tear up a bar, I am forced to take out on you and the libs. So I am game if you are.

[RossValoryRocks]

Waterboarding -v- death you choose..

It's a bogus argument and one that, like so many here, gives the President cover to act like a King.
If waterboarding is a legit tactic, pull out of the treaties and make it legal.

Ok Mr. Rule of law...those treaties are only binding between the countries that signed them. We will never waterboard, say a Russian, or a Chinese soldier. This subhuman beings that think that killing ALL of us will somehow get them 72 virgins and a better place in Eternity are no signees to these treaties.

They are not soldiers in the army of some country they are fanatics will would cut off your head no matter what you say, and they would do it with no regrets, no feelings of shame, and secure in their moral superiority over you, oh and with no discussion of the nicities of the "rule of law"

You are hopelessly naieve and if they win, you will be one of the first to go, as you are undoubtedly a secularist and don't fit in the world view they espouse.

Convert or die, that is their way.

It is easy for you who have never so much as lifted a finger to serve your country to spout off rhetorical hyperbole about how evil we who have chosen to do so are. The primary role of the government is to PROTECT IT'S PEOPLE, by whatever means neccesary. You and others like you would have us roll over and let the animals win. I pity you, because you don't have the strength of will to acutally stand up and defend yourself, your fellow citizens or your country.

Deano at the very least served, I don't agree with him, but he put himself and his life on the line. You who bask in the freedom provided by people like Dean, and Carl and myself and yet feel it neccesary to tell us how evil we are being should just shut the fuck up once in awhile and enjoy the fact your have your freedom.

You are a contemptable person and should I ever meet you I will spit in your face you coward.

Two points I would like to state in disagreement with your post....

1.) If you resort to the same kinds of disreputable tactics as your enemies then you are no better then they are and therefore negate your justification for fighting against them in the first place.

2.) To tell TNC that since he hasn't worn a uniform then he has no right to state his opinions on what goes on with his country and the governing of it is a ridiculous argument. Any citizen has a right to form an opinion and be heard. If only those that have served in the military have a right to have an opinion then why aren't they only ones allowed to vote? Why isn't a military service required to be President then? You also lost points in your argument for getting mad enough at someone who disagrees with you to tell them you would " spit in their face" if you met them in person.

imo

And I don't care.TNC is a walking piece of shit who would sell out the country I fought for to ease his conscience, as would you it would seem. To limit ourselves while the enemy does is a sure recipie for defeat.

I didn't say he didn't have the right, reread what I said, I said I wished once in a while he and others of his ilk would just shut the fuck up and enjoy what others have given, and sacraficed for them.

[RossValoryRocks]

The invasion of Japan would have cost well over 2 million Japanese civilian deaths, and several hundred thousand dead US soldiers...we did the right thing.

Then why did Truman lie to the American people and depict Hiroshima as only "a military target."
Eisenhower later admitted the bombing was not necessary.

Here is a good primer: http://www.kilroywashere.org/006-Pages/Invasion.html

Your sources please?

[The_Noble_Cause]

Ok Mr. Rule of law...those treaties are only binding between the countries that signed them. We will never waterboard, say a Russian, or a Chinese soldier. This subhuman beings that think that killing ALL of us will somehow get them 72 virgins and a better place in Eternity are no signees to these treaties.

Maybe for Geneva or the Army Field Manual, but the UN Convention Against Torture does not discriminate.
Also, the Supreme Court, which you are so fond of citing, recently ruled that GITMO detainees are entitled to POW status so those other laws arguably may be in play.
As with wiretapping, if you want to do it, change the law.

They are not soldiers in the army of some country they are fanatics will would cut off your head no matter what you say, and they would do it with no regrets, no feelings of shame, and secure in their moral superiority over you, oh and with no discussion of the nicities of the "rule of law."

Not the point.

You are hopelessly naieve and if they win, you will be one of the first to go, as you are undoubtedly a secularist and don't fit in the world view they espouse.

Convert or die, that is their way.

Great. That has nothing to do with breaking the law.

It is easy for you who have never so much as lifted a finger to serve your country to spout off rhetorical hyperbole about how evil we who have chosen to do so are. The primary role of the government is to PROTECT IT'S PEOPLE, by whatever means neccesary. You and others like you would have us roll over and let the animals win. I pity you, because you don't have the strength of will to acutally stand up and defend yourself, your fellow citizens or your country.

I haven't called anyone evil.
In both instances of Bush breaking the laws (wiretapping and torture) you revert to jingoistic bluster.

Deano at the very least served, I don't agree with him, but he put himself and his life on the line. You who bask in the freedom provided by people like Dean, and Carl and myself and yet feel it necessary to tell us how evil we are being should just shut the fuck up once in awhile and enjoy the fact your have your freedom.

I haven’t called anyone evil, and I thank all of you guys for your service.

You are a contemptable person and should I ever meet you I will spit in your face you coward.

Torture has been confirmed by people like Susan Crawford, the Pentagon inspector general under Reagan, and former lead prosecutor at Gitmo.
Bruce Fein, formerly of the Reagan justice dept, has also joined a chorus of constitutional lawyers speaking out.
This is not a left or right issue.
You're being ridiculous.

[RossValoryRocks]

The invasion of Japan would have cost well over 2 million Japanese civilian deaths, and several hundred thousand dead US soldiers...we did the right thing.

Then why did Truman lie to the American people and depict Hiroshima as only "a military target."
Eisenhower later admitted the bombing was not necessary.

Oh yeah a few other political things to consider...

The bombs also made the Soviets pause for a moment.
It stopped them from demanding the joint occupation of Japan which would have created a North and South Japan, much like Korea today.

Those are just two other non-military reasons.

Yes Truman lied. I don't know why you will have to ask him.

We knew the civilian population of Hiroshima outnumbered the military by 5 or 6 to 1.

[G.I.Jim]

Waterboarding -v- death you choose..

It's a bogus argument and one that, like so many here, gives the President cover to act like a King.
If waterboarding is a legit tactic, pull out of the treaties and make it legal.

Ok Mr. Rule of law...those treaties are only binding between the countries that signed them. We will never waterboard, say a Russian, or a Chinese soldier. This subhuman beings that think that killing ALL of us will somehow get them 72 virgins and a better place in Eternity are no signees to these treaties.

They are not soldiers in the army of some country they are fanatics will would cut off your head no matter what you say, and they would do it with no regrets, no feelings of shame, and secure in their moral superiority over you, oh and with no discussion of the nicities of the "rule of law"

You are hopelessly naieve and if they win, you will be one of the first to go, as you are undoubtedly a secularist and don't fit in the world view they espouse.

Convert or die, that is their way.

It is easy for you who have never so much as lifted a finger to serve your country to spout off rhetorical hyperbole about how evil we who have chosen to do so are. The primary role of the government is to PROTECT IT'S PEOPLE, by whatever means neccesary. You and others like you would have us roll over and let the animals win. I pity you, because you don't have the strength of will to acutally stand up and defend yourself, your fellow citizens or your country.

Deano at the very least served, I don't agree with him, but he put himself and his life on the line. You who bask in the freedom provided by people like Dean, and Carl and myself and yet feel it neccesary to tell us how evil we are being should just shut the fuck up once in awhile and enjoy the fact your have your freedom.

You are a contemptable person and should I ever meet you I will spit in your face you coward.

Two points I would like to state in disagreement with your post....

1.) In regards to the torture issue : If you resort to the same kinds of disreputable tactics as your enemies then you are no better then they are and therefore negate your justification for fighting against them in the first place.

2.) To tell TNC that since he hasn't worn a uniform then he has no right to state his opinions on what goes on with his country and the governing of it is a ridiculous argument. Any citizen has a right to form an opinion and be heard. If only those that have served in the military have a right to have an opinion then why aren't they only ones allowed to vote? Why isn't a military service required to be President then? You also lost points in your argument for getting mad enough at someone who disagrees with you to tell them you would " spit in their face" if you met them in person.

imo

Blueskies...You know I love you, but I seriously disagree with your two points here...

1. We aren't treating terrorists like they treat us...if we were, they'd be interrogated without a head.

2. Well, actually I do agree with you here. I understand why RossValoryRocks wrote such a statement, but I don't think it's right to spit in someone's face (exept Jane-Fucking-Fonda's). And I'm 100% serious about that! That bitch cost several American lives. I do wish that we were a country (like most others do) that make it manditory for some form of government service at the age of 18. I think it would help people understand what makes this country so great, as well as teach them responsibility. I do believe however, that TNC (Or flaming taco as I like to call him) has every right to blab on about anything he wishes.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Your sources please?

Ike's own book.

"During [Secretary of War Stimpson's] recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude... "

He later made similar statements in a Newsweek interview which has been quoted repeatedly.

[The_Noble_Cause]

The invasion of Japan would have cost well over 2 million Japanese civilian deaths, and several hundred thousand dead US soldiers...we did the right thing.

Then why did Truman lie to the American people and depict Hiroshima as only "a military target."
Eisenhower later admitted the bombing was not necessary.

Oh yeah a few other political things to consider...

The bombs also made the Soviets pause for a moment.
It stopped them from demanding the joint occupation of Japan which would have created a North and South Japan, much like Korea today.

Those are just two other non-military reasons.

Yes Truman lied. I don't know why you will have to ask him.

We knew the civilian population of Hiroshima outnumbered the military by 5 or 6 to 1.

Agreed and correct.

[Blueskies]

Waterboarding -v- death you choose..

It's a bogus argument and one that, like so many here, gives the President cover to act like a King.
If waterboarding is a legit tactic, pull out of the treaties and make it legal.

Ok Mr. Rule of law...those treaties are only binding between the countries that signed them. We will never waterboard, say a Russian, or a Chinese soldier. This subhuman beings that think that killing ALL of us will somehow get them 72 virgins and a better place in Eternity are no signees to these treaties.

They are not soldiers in the army of some country they are fanatics will would cut off your head no matter what you say, and they would do it with no regrets, no feelings of shame, and secure in their moral superiority over you, oh and with no discussion of the nicities of the "rule of law"

You are hopelessly naieve and if they win, you will be one of the first to go, as you are undoubtedly a secularist and don't fit in the world view they espouse.

Convert or die, that is their way.

It is easy for you who have never so much as lifted a finger to serve your country to spout off rhetorical hyperbole about how evil we who have chosen to do so are. The primary role of the government is to PROTECT IT'S PEOPLE, by whatever means neccesary. You and others like you would have us roll over and let the animals win. I pity you, because you don't have the strength of will to acutally stand up and defend yourself, your fellow citizens or your country.

Deano at the very least served, I don't agree with him, but he put himself and his life on the line. You who bask in the freedom provided by people like Dean, and Carl and myself and yet feel it neccesary to tell us how evil we are being should just shut the fuck up once in awhile and enjoy the fact your have your freedom.

You are a contemptable person and should I ever meet you I will spit in your face you coward.

Two points I would like to state in disagreement with your post....

1.) If you resort to the same kinds of disreputable tactics as your enemies then you are no better then they are and therefore negate your justification for fighting against them in the first place.

2.) To tell TNC that since he hasn't worn a uniform then he has no right to state his opinions on what goes on with his country and the governing of it is a ridiculous argument. Any citizen has a right to form an opinion and be heard. If only those that have served in the military have a right to have an opinion then why aren't they only ones allowed to vote? Why isn't a military service required to be President then? You also lost points in your argument for getting mad enough at someone who disagrees with you to tell them you would " spit in their face" if you met them in person.

imo

And I don't care.TNC is a walking piece of shit who would sell out the country I fought for to ease his conscience, as would you it would seem. To limit ourselves while the enemy does is a sure recipie for defeat.

I didn't say he didn't have the right, reread what I said, I said I wished once in a while he and others of his ilk would just shut the fuck up and enjoy what others have given, and sacrificed for them.

" As would I it would seem" ?? That's is a highly presumptuous thing to say isn't it? To suggest that I would " sell out my country" ??? for stating my opinion to what you just said? How did you come to that conclusion? Hey, not even everyone that serves or has served in the military agrees with everything the government does...or agrees with everything the military does.

Oh...and no..I have never served in the military but my great great grandfather served in the Revolutionary War...in fact his military uniform is on display in a museum in Charleston, WV. ..My great grandfather was in the Union during the Civil War....My grandfather served in the Army during non war time...my father served in the Air Force during the Korean Conflict...my older brother in the Navy at the tail end of the Vietnam War and I have a son who is currently in the National Guard....as well as many other relatives who have served their country at various times and in all branches of service...as well as a few who have served in government..currently an uncle who has been a state senator for years and a brother in the FBI. I think that all of that service that has been done by my family alone allows me to have opinions on what our Government does and an opinion on how we should conduct ourselves in conflict. Well, I think thats enough service and credentials to have the right of an opinion isn't it?

[G.I.Jim]

Waterboarding -v- death you choose..

It's a bogus argument and one that, like so many here, gives the President cover to act like a King.
If waterboarding is a legit tactic, pull out of the treaties and make it legal.

Ok Mr. Rule of law...those treaties are only binding between the countries that signed them. We will never waterboard, say a Russian, or a Chinese soldier. This subhuman beings that think that killing ALL of us will somehow get them 72 virgins and a better place in Eternity are no signees to these treaties.

They are not soldiers in the army of some country they are fanatics will would cut off your head no matter what you say, and they would do it with no regrets, no feelings of shame, and secure in their moral superiority over you, oh and with no discussion of the nicities of the "rule of law"

You are hopelessly naieve and if they win, you will be one of the first to go, as you are undoubtedly a secularist and don't fit in the world view they espouse.

Convert or die, that is their way.

It is easy for you who have never so much as lifted a finger to serve your country to spout off rhetorical hyperbole about how evil we who have chosen to do so are. The primary role of the government is to PROTECT IT'S PEOPLE, by whatever means neccesary. You and others like you would have us roll over and let the animals win. I pity you, because you don't have the strength of will to acutally stand up and defend yourself, your fellow citizens or your country.

Deano at the very least served, I don't agree with him, but he put himself and his life on the line. You who bask in the freedom provided by people like Dean, and Carl and myself and yet feel it neccesary to tell us how evil we are being should just shut the fuck up once in awhile and enjoy the fact your have your freedom.

You are a contemptable person and should I ever meet you I will spit in your face you coward.

Two points I would like to state in disagreement with your post....

1.) If you resort to the same kinds of disreputable tactics as your enemies then you are no better then they are and therefore negate your justification for fighting against them in the first place.

2.) To tell TNC that since he hasn't worn a uniform then he has no right to state his opinions on what goes on with his country and the governing of it is a ridiculous argument. Any citizen has a right to form an opinion and be heard. If only those that have served in the military have a right to have an opinion then why aren't they only ones allowed to vote? Why isn't a military service required to be President then? You also lost points in your argument for getting mad enough at someone who disagrees with you to tell them you would " spit in their face" if you met them in person.

imo

And I don't care.TNC is a walking piece of shit who would sell out the country I fought for to ease his conscience, as would you it would seem. To limit ourselves while the enemy does is a sure recipie for defeat.

I didn't say he didn't have the right, reread what I said, I said I wished once in a while he and others of his ilk would just shut the fuck up and enjoy what others have given, and sacrificed for them.

" As would I it would seem" ?? That's is a highly presumptuous thing to say isn't it? To suggest that I would " sell out my country" ??? for stating my opinion to what you just said? How did you come to that conclusion? Hey, not even everyone that serves or has served in the military agrees with everything the government does...or agrees with everything the military does.

Oh...and no..I have never served in the military but my great great grandfather served in the Revolutionary War...in fact his military uniform is on display in a museum in Charleston, WV. ..My great grandfather was in the Union during the Civil War....My grandfather served in the Army during non war time...my father served in the Air Force during the Korean Conflict...my older brother in the Navy at the tail end of the Vietnam War and I have a son who is currently in the National Guard....as well as many other relatives who have served their country at various times and in all branches of service...as well as a few who have served in government..currently an uncle who has been a state senator for years and a brother in the FBI. I think that all of that service that has been done by my family alone allows me to have opinions on what are Government does and an opinion on how we should conduct ourselves in conflict. Well, I think thats enough service and credentials to have the right of an opinion isn't it?

Nope...it just gives THEM the right to an opinion! I'm just joking...I think everyone is entitled to it. I tend to listen to people who have served more when it comes to opinion though...nothing personal, but I just know they've volunteered to serve their country. Just my own opinion here, and some of my best friends have never served!

[G.I.Jim]

I've enjoyed the debates on here you sick bastards, but bed is calling me...worked 13 hours today...must get sleep! Take care.

[Blueskies]

Waterboarding -v- death you choose..

It's a bogus argument and one that, like so many here, gives the President cover to act like a King.
If waterboarding is a legit tactic, pull out of the treaties and make it legal.

Ok Mr. Rule of law...those treaties are only binding between the countries that signed them. We will never waterboard, say a Russian, or a Chinese soldier. This subhuman beings that think that killing ALL of us will somehow get them 72 virgins and a better place in Eternity are no signees to these treaties.

They are not soldiers in the army of some country they are fanatics will would cut off your head no matter what you say, and they would do it with no regrets, no feelings of shame, and secure in their moral superiority over you, oh and with no discussion of the nicities of the "rule of law"

You are hopelessly naieve and if they win, you will be one of the first to go, as you are undoubtedly a secularist and don't fit in the world view they espouse.

Convert or die, that is their way.

It is easy for you who have never so much as lifted a finger to serve your country to spout off rhetorical hyperbole about how evil we who have chosen to do so are. The primary role of the government is to PROTECT IT'S PEOPLE, by whatever means neccesary. You and others like you would have us roll over and let the animals win. I pity you, because you don't have the strength of will to acutally stand up and defend yourself, your fellow citizens or your country.

Deano at the very least served, I don't agree with him, but he put himself and his life on the line. You who bask in the freedom provided by people like Dean, and Carl and myself and yet feel it neccesary to tell us how evil we are being should just shut the fuck up once in awhile and enjoy the fact your have your freedom.

You are a contemptable person and should I ever meet you I will spit in your face you coward.

Two points I would like to state in disagreement with your post....

1.) If you resort to the same kinds of disreputable tactics as your enemies then you are no better then they are and therefore negate your justification for fighting against them in the first place.

2.) To tell TNC that since he hasn't worn a uniform then he has no right to state his opinions on what goes on with his country and the governing of it is a ridiculous argument. Any citizen has a right to form an opinion and be heard. If only those that have served in the military have a right to have an opinion then why aren't they only ones allowed to vote? Why isn't a military service required to be President then? You also lost points in your argument for getting mad enough at someone who disagrees with you to tell them you would " spit in their face" if you met them in person.

imo

And I don't care.TNC is a walking piece of shit who would sell out the country I fought for to ease his conscience, as would you it would seem. To limit ourselves while the enemy does is a sure recipie for defeat.

I didn't say he didn't have the right, reread what I said, I said I wished once in a while he and others of his ilk would just shut the fuck up and enjoy what others have given, and sacrificed for them.

" As would I it would seem" ?? That's is a highly presumptuous thing to say isn't it? To suggest that I would " sell out my country" ??? for stating my opinion to what you just said? How did you come to that conclusion? Hey, not even everyone that serves or has served in the military agrees with everything the government does...or agrees with everything the military does.

Oh...and no..I have never served in the military but my great great grandfather served in the Revolutionary War...in fact his military uniform is on display in a museum in Charleston, WV. ..My great grandfather was in the Union during the Civil War....My grandfather served in the Army during non war time...my father served in the Air Force during the Korean Conflict...my older brother in the Navy at the tail end of the Vietnam War and I have a son who is currently in the National Guard....as well as many other relatives who have served their country at various times and in all branches of service...as well as a few who have served in government..currently an uncle who has been a state senator for years and a brother in the FBI. I think that all of that service that has been done by my family alone allows me to have opinions on what are Government does and an opinion on how we should conduct ourselves in conflict. Well, I think thats enough service and credentials to have the right of an opinion isn't it?

Nope...it just gives THEM the right to an opinion! I'm just joking...I think everyone is entitled to it. I tend to listen to people who have served more when it comes to opinion though...nothing personal, but I just know they've volunteered to serve their country. Just my own opinion here, and some of my best friends have never served!

alrighty then! just as you said above...love ya too, Jimbo! have a good nights sleep and sweet dreaming.

oh..I might add..
those family members of mine ( as well as friends) that have or do serve...and from stories handed down.....well...
...all that has contributed to forming my opinions. So I listen to those that serve and take what they say into consideration, too.

[The_Noble_Cause]

And I don't care.TNC is a walking piece of shit who would sell out the country I fought for to ease his conscience, as would you it would seem. To limit ourselves while the enemy does is a sure recipie for defeat.

I’ve argued constantly, if wiretapping and torture is the path American wants to go down, change the law or pull out of the treaty.
That's not "limiting" anything.
I’d actually argue that is the Conservative position.

I didn't say he didn't have the right, reread what I said, I said I wished once in a while he and others of his ilk would just shut the fuck up and enjoy what others have given, and sacraficed for them.

The soldiers in the field have NOTHING to do with the institutionalized torture policies of David Addington, John Yoo, and Cheney.
That's like placing blame on them for the WMD screwup.
If you want to defend Bush gov't policy, do so, but don't hide behind fake apple pie patriotism.

[RedWingFan]

Had America fought against the Japanese in WWII like they are fighting the terrorists over in Iraq now, we'd a fucking lost that war.

Actually, the Japanese engaged in waterboarding in WW2. They lost, and we prosecuted them for torture.

Were our soldiers dressed in uniform? Were they hiding and fighting within and behind a civilian population?
Terrorists are doing both and don't fall under Convention rules.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Were our soldiers dressed in uniform? Were they hiding and fighting within and behind a civilian population?
Terrorists are doing both and don't fall under Convention rules.

Geneva is not the only anti-torture convention we are bound by.
Try again.

[RossValoryRocks]

Your sources please?

Ike's own book.

"During [Secretary of War Stimpson's] recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude... "

He later made similar statements in a Newsweek interview which has been quoted repeatedly.

Well that is his opinion...the other military and government leaders didn't feel the same way and their opinions were based on the fact they were the ones conducting the war in the Pacific and had a greater first hand knowledge of the situation than Ike did (MacArthur, Nimitz, Halsey etc).

The Japanese would not surrender if they couldn't keep their Emperor, and would not have done so had he no explicitly ordered them to do so.

I understand where Ike was coming from, but disagree with him on the substance.

Iwo Jima had shown us that the Japanese didn't surrender easily...hell there were Japanese soldiers continuing the fight into the '60 on the remote islands in the pacific who refused to believe Japan had indeed surrendered.

[RossValoryRocks]

And I don't care.TNC is a walking piece of shit who would sell out the country I fought for to ease his conscience, as would you it would seem. To limit ourselves while the enemy does is a sure recipie for defeat.

I’ve argued constantly, if wiretapping and torture is the path American wants to go down, change the law or pull out of the treaty.
That's not "limiting" anything.
I’d actually argue that is the Conservative position.

I didn't say he didn't have the right, reread what I said, I said I wished once in a while he and others of his ilk would just shut the fuck up and enjoy what others have given, and sacraficed for them.

The soldiers in the field have NOTHING to do with the institutionalized torture policies of David Addington, John Yoo, and Cheney.
That's like placing blame on them for the WMD screwup.
If you want to defend Bush gov't policy, do so, but don't hide behind fake apple pie patriotism.

They didn't need to do so. The laws as written gave the Bush administration, and now the Obama adminisration, the legal fabric to do so.

Also you argument that the appeal didn't negate the lower court ruling is disengeuous. The appeal came with an automatic stay, until SCOTUS rules on it.

So the law as written allows the government to keep wiretapping, without a warrant.

And again, I AGREE with you (and the appeals court judge) that the law is wrong, and unconstitutional, however we don't sit on the SCOTUS and are not te final arbiters of the law.

As for the torture aspect, the libs have been throwing out the Geneva Convention as the "rule of law" in this case. Unfortunately for the subhumans, it doesn't apply in their cases.

And the UN accords on human rights barely, if at all, touch on the treatment of the subhumans currently being held.

If we try and defend our country hampered by the notion that we are going to do so "nicer" than the other guy then we will lose.

[The_Noble_Cause]

They didn't need to do so.

How so?
FISA was created specifically because a President had wiretapped his own citizens under the guise of national security in wartime.
AUMF was never intended to extend to domestic surveillance.
One of its co-drafters said as much.
It also does not give the President the right to ignore Congressional law.

The laws as written gave the Bush administration, and now the Obama adminisration, the legal fabric to do so.

If that were truly the case, Bush wouldn't have caved and brought the wiretapping programs under FISA.
Which he was right to do, but should've done in the first place.

Also you argument that the appeal didn't negate the lower court ruling is disengeuous. The appeal came with an automatic stay, until SCOTUS rules on it.

The judge's opinion may not be accepted "good law" on the books, but what she had to say is still valid.
Just like dissents are not law, for those that are interested, it's still valid stuff.
Especially considering the lower court was one of the few to actually look at the legality of the program (others only ruled on the ACLU’s standing as a plaintiff).
That's all I'm saying.
You make it sound like people couldn't point out OJ's guilt until the LA jury entered a verdict.
A court doesn't need to rule for other lawyers to point out faulty legal reasoning.

As for the torture aspect, the libs have been throwing out the Geneva Convention as the "rule of law" in this case. Unfortunately for the subhumans, it doesn't apply in their cases.

I’m not arguing that.
Tho, like I said, the Supreme Court granting GITMO detainees POW status could throw a wrench into the mix.

And the UN accords on human rights barely, if at all, touch on the treatment of the subhumans currently being held.

If we try and defend our country hampered by the notion that we are going to do so "nicer" than the other guy then we will lose.

The UN Convention against Torture (signed by Reagan) is very clear.
As it currently stands, we are in violation of international law.
If waterboarding is effective, pull out of the treaty.
It’s that simple.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Deano, terrorists have planned every method of attack against our country that could possibly be conceived. They read threats every damn day, and there is NO way that ANY president could have known (Based on the threat) that it would actually happen. They've detailed plans against railways, Nuclear power plants, subway stations, and nearly every public sporting event held in the country...what was he supposed to do...shut down the country? Come on! I know you have more common sense than that. If he had hard evidence, he would have done anything in his power to stop that attack. To say otherwise is just stupid.

Say what you like about Clinton, but when he recieved a PDB warning about the Millenium attacks in 1999, all the intelligence agencies were put on high alert.
Did Bush even do that much?

[G.I.Jim]

Deano, terrorists have planned every method of attack against our country that could possibly be conceived. They read threats every damn day, and there is NO way that ANY president could have known (Based on the threat) that it would actually happen. They've detailed plans against railways, Nuclear power plants, subway stations, and nearly every public sporting event held in the country...what was he supposed to do...shut down the country? Come on! I know you have more common sense than that. If he had hard evidence, he would have done anything in his power to stop that attack. To say otherwise is just stupid.

Say what you like about Clinton, but when he recieved a PDB warning about the Millenium attacks in 1999, all the intelligence agencies were put on high alert.
Did Bush even do that much?

I've never said that Clinton never did ANYTHING right. But he did also have the location of Bin Ladden after the bombing, and wouldn't give Special Forces the green light to take him out. I've heard a first hand account of that entire operation from the commander of the Special forces unit. He was also portrayed in Black Hawk Down. He had some pretty interesting stories about how Clinton got a lot of his men killed. They had captured 11 terrorists during that black hawk down conflict...Clinton ordered them to be released after they dragged our soldiers through the streets and tortured them. One of them was the pilot who flew the 1st plane into the twin towers. GREAT job Clinton!

[Eric]

hey if you want to be cruel to others you go right ahead. i think it is wrong. i don't think the information gathered, whatever it may have been if any, required torture. some argue for torture, but i am steadfast against it. if the u.s. condones torture of others then our men and women in uniform will also be tortured. there is no room for such barbaric tactics.

I said waterboarding though?

[Eric]

Why do people actually think Polls mean shit as far as it indicates a President is doing good or bad?

Polls do mean something. Polls equate to public perception, which translates to votes or prospective votes, which then translate into political capital, which President Obama has a ton of now.

You're welcome for the session Stuey.

I have to agree that polls are meaningful.

[Eric]

Fuck you Fact Finder. Had your Goddamned dumbshit president stopped and read the fucking national security briefings, of which one Madeline Albright of all people relayed to the new White House that the Muslims are intending to use our passenger planes as weapons against us, those pictures might not be here today.

Now, I will use your ridiculous argument against you-

Read Security briefings or 5,000 killed?

So why didn't Clinton or W do more to prevent 9-11 if security brieifings indicated that? Firstly, where-when-how......and secondly, can you imagine pre-911 if either President tightened air security like it is now and "pre-emtpively" attacked the Al Qaeda cells in Afganistan/Pakistan? Holy fuck...some of you don't even like the notion of Pre-emptive attacks even AFTER 9-11!!!

[treetopovskaya]

god forbid if we do cuz obama won't know about it. he is as naive & ignorant as one can get... arrogant as well.

the same can be said about his "followers".

Fuck you Fact Finder. Had your Goddamned dumbshit president stopped and read the fucking national security briefings, of which one Madeline Albright of all people relayed to the new White House that the Muslims are intending to use our passenger planes as weapons against us, those pictures might not be here today.

Now, I will use your ridiculous argument against you-

Read Security briefings or 5,000 killed?

Deano, terrorists have planned every method of attack against our country that could possibly be conceived. They read threats every damn day, and there is NO way that ANY president could have known (Based on the threat) that it would actually happen. They've detailed plans against railways, Nuclear power plants, subway stations, and nearly every public sporting event held in the country...what was he supposed to do...shut down the country? Come on! I know you have more common sense than that. If he had hard evidence, he would have done anything in his power to stop that attack. To say otherwise is just stupid.

While I agree with you on the point of not being able to stop all attacks, and Obama will likely suffer one as well, it sounds as if you are excusing the lack of even reading the fucking briefings.