President Barack Obama - Term 1 and 2 Thread

[RossValoryRocks]

not within my power to torture another human being. it is quite simply not who i am. not in my belief system, not in my psyche. interrogate- sure. as a middle school teacher it's part of my job, lol.

LOL...Don't leave out being with Dean...I am sure that is close to what you experience with the Middle School kids!

[Lula]

lol, you're good stu!! something i say all the time

[treetopovskaya]

i should have explained better. i never meant if anyone would be able to do it... with their own hands. hehehee. no way could i hurt someone... i don't even kill bugs... nothing dies around me... except house plants... & fish. that's why i no longer ever have fish as pets. };C)

for me i find it selfish for someone to let their beliefs & feelings get in the way of our gov doing what it takes to keep people safe & out of harms way. maybe my thoughts & feelings would be different pre-911. lots of heroes (the brave men & women who put their lives on the line each day to keep us safe) died that day... my heart still breaks for those who attended many funerals for people they lost that day.

obama is doing the right thing... saying he wants no investigation. hope he doesn't flip flop like he did last week. it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems. hopefully nothing happens on his watch... he's not going to know what to do. if we get someone in custody who knows something just how will we get them to talk? offer tea & cake? maybe obama can talk them into submission. }:CPP

Of course it is within a person's power to allegedly torture or interrogate someone.

You are, unless you have some outstanding medical or physical condition, capable of torture, whether it be mental or physical. It is within your power to do so; you simply refuse to facilitate it.

not within my power to torture another human being. it is quite simply not who i am. not in my belief system, not in my psyche. interrogate- sure. as a middle school teacher it's part of my job, lol.

[RossValoryRocks]

Go O!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090425/ap_ ... a_spending

How about that...actually listening to the the workers rather than the idiots in Congress and the management who are only looking to protect their share of the budget?!

I'll give big props to Obama for this.

[Blueskies]

i should have explained better. i never meant if anyone would be able to do it... with their own hands. hehehee. no way could i hurt someone... i don't even kill bugs... nothing dies around me... except house plants... & fish. that's why i no longer ever have fish as pets. };C)

for me i find it selfish for someone to let their beliefs & feelings get in the way of our gov doing what it takes to keep people safe & out of harms way. maybe my thoughts & feelings would be different pre-911. lots of heroes (the brave men & women who put their lives on the line each day to keep us safe) died that day... my heart still breaks for those who attended many funerals for people they lost that day.

obama is doing the right thing... saying he wants no investigation. hope he doesn't flip flop like he did last week. it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems. hopefully nothing happens on his watch... he's not going to know what to do. if we get someone in custody who knows something just how will we get them to talk? offer tea & cake? maybe obama can talk them into submission. }:CPP

Of course it is within a person's power to allegedly torture or interrogate someone.

You are, unless you have some outstanding medical or physical condition, capable of torture, whether it be mental or physical. It is within your power to do so; you simply refuse to facilitate it.

not within my power to torture another human being. it is quite simply not who i am. not in my belief system, not in my psyche. interrogate- sure. as a middle school teacher it's part of my job, lol.

So what your saying is, you believe in using torture methods only if someone else does the dirty work for you.

If you fully support a practice and thereby authorize it then your hands are just as dirty as the ones who are instructed to carry it out.

[Blueskies]

Go O!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090425/ap_ ... a_spending

How about that...actually listening to the the workers rather than the idiots in Congress and the management who are only looking to protect their share of the budget?!

I'll give big props to Obama for this.

Pretty simple concept but it's a good one. I did that myself as a manager...I put up a box with paper and pen beside and asked the workers to take the time to jot down anything they came across during their shifts....any problems they came across and any ideas they had that could help cut time or costs.....then we would discuss it and see if their ideas were feasible to instill at employee meetings. Any business should get input from their workers towards making it more efficient...the workers are the ones that are in there seeing the details day to day within their positions...not the higher ups.
The government is slow as usual to finally start doing things more efficiently. Good for Obama for starting a practice that many in the business world have been doing for years.

[Jana]

i should have explained better. i never meant if anyone would be able to do it... with their own hands. hehehee. no way could i hurt someone... i don't even kill bugs... nothing dies around me... except house plants... & fish. that's why i no longer ever have fish as pets. };C)

for me i find it selfish for someone to let their beliefs & feelings get in the way of our gov doing what it takes to keep people safe & out of harms way. maybe my thoughts & feelings would be different pre-911. lots of heroes (the brave men & women who put their lives on the line each day to keep us safe) died that day... my heart still breaks for those who attended many funerals for people they lost that day.

obama is doing the right thing... saying he wants no investigation. hope he doesn't flip flop like he did last week. it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems. hopefully nothing happens on his watch... he's not going to know what to do. if we get someone in custody who knows something just how will we get them to talk? offer tea & cake? maybe obama can talk them into submission. }:CPP

Of course it is within a person's power to allegedly torture or interrogate someone.

You are, unless you have some outstanding medical or physical condition, capable of torture, whether it be mental or physical. It is within your power to do so; you simply refuse to facilitate it.

not within my power to torture another human being. it is quite simply not who i am. not in my belief system, not in my psyche. interrogate- sure. as a middle school teacher it's part of my job, lol.

So, Tree, I guess what you're saying is if McCain had been elected, who does not believe in waterboarding and considers it torture, a man I highly respect for his years serving as a senator and in the military and as a former POW, you would say "Maybe McCain can talk them into submission." Where does it jump all the way from waterboarding to talking into submission? I think our country's interrogation techniques are a little more sophisticated than that oversimplification of choices.

I am torn on this subject. Truthfully, there's a part of me that could care less if suspected terrorists are waterboarded, which I consider torture, purely from a personal standpoint. But that's a whole lot different than what our nation and military should stand for.

McCain's comments on KSM being waterboarded 183 times:

"It's unacceptable. One is too much. Waterboarding is torture, period. I can assure you that once enough physical pain is inflicted on someone, they will tell that interrogator whatever they think they want to hear. And most importantly, it serves as a great propaganda tool for those who recruit people to fight against us. And I've seen concrete examples of that talking to former high-ranking al-Qaeda individuals in Iraq."

Asked to respond to reports from pro-torture officials who claim the practice yielded good intelligence, McCain didn't budge:

"According to the FBI, they did not. According to the CIA, they did. With all due respect, my view is, whether they did or not, the image of the United States of America throughout the world is a recruiting tool for Islamic extremists. And I got that from a former high-ranking al Qaeda in Iraq."

[yulog]

Go O!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090425/ap_ ... a_spending

How about that...actually listening to the the workers rather than the idiots in Congress and the management who are only looking to protect their share of the budget?!

I'll give big props to Obama for this.

Pretty simple concept but it's a good one. I did that myself as a manager...I put up a box with paper and pen beside and asked the workers to take the time to jot down anything they came across during their shifts....any problems they came across and any ideas they had that could help cut time or costs.....then we would discuss it and see if their ideas were feasible to instill at employee meetings. Any business should get input from their workers towards making it more efficient...the workers are the ones that are in there seeing the details day to day within their positions...not the higher ups.
The government is slow as usual to finally start doing things more efficiently. Good for Obama for starting a practice that many in the business world have been doing for years.

And yet Somehow being the shift leader at the piggly wiggly doesnt seem to compare to being the leader of the free world

[treetopovskaya]

omg... i don't agree with mccain on everything. shock! if he was elected prez he might have had to change his mind if it meant saving innocent lives... it's easy for someone to say they wouldn't do something when they're not in the position of having to protect the american citizens. i guess i have blind faith that our gov does what it needs to to protect us. i may not like it... & i said i don't... but if it's only done to save lives (geez just how many times do i have to say this?) i'm not going to loose sleep. some even argue that waterboarding isn't torture. some would say that playing music too loud is torture. making someone stay up is torture. being in prison is torture... hmm.

instead of worrying about criminals worry about their victims.

the tea & cake comment was me being a smart ass. it was a joke. }:C)

i should have explained better. i never meant if anyone would be able to do it... with their own hands. hehehee. no way could i hurt someone... i don't even kill bugs... nothing dies around me... except house plants... & fish. that's why i no longer ever have fish as pets. };C)

for me i find it selfish for someone to let their beliefs & feelings get in the way of our gov doing what it takes to keep people safe & out of harms way. maybe my thoughts & feelings would be different pre-911. lots of heroes (the brave men & women who put their lives on the line each day to keep us safe) died that day... my heart still breaks for those who attended many funerals for people they lost that day.

obama is doing the right thing... saying he wants no investigation. hope he doesn't flip flop like he did last week. it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems. hopefully nothing happens on his watch... he's not going to know what to do. if we get someone in custody who knows something just how will we get them to talk? offer tea & cake? maybe obama can talk them into submission. }:CPP

Of course it is within a person's power to allegedly torture or interrogate someone.

You are, unless you have some outstanding medical or physical condition, capable of torture, whether it be mental or physical. It is within your power to do so; you simply refuse to facilitate it.

not within my power to torture another human being. it is quite simply not who i am. not in my belief system, not in my psyche. interrogate- sure. as a middle school teacher it's part of my job, lol.

So, Tree, I guess what you're saying is if McCain had been elected, who does not believe in waterboarding and considers it torture, a man I highly respect for his years serving as a senator and in the military and as a former POW, you would say "Maybe McCain can talk them into submission." Where does it jump all the way from waterboarding to talking into submission? I think our country's interrogation techniques are a little more sophisticated than that oversimplification of choices.

I am torn on this subject. Truthfully, there's a part of me that could care less if suspected terrorists are waterboarded, which I consider torture, purely from a personal standpoint. But that's a whole lot different than what our nation and military should stand for.

McCain's comments on KSM being waterboarded 183 times:

"It's unacceptable. One is too much. Waterboarding is torture, period. I can assure you that once enough physical pain is inflicted on someone, they will tell that interrogator whatever they think they want to hear. And most importantly, it serves as a great propaganda tool for those who recruit people to fight against us. And I've seen concrete examples of that talking to former high-ranking al-Qaeda individuals in Iraq."

Asked to respond to reports from pro-torture officials who claim the practice yielded good intelligence, McCain didn't budge:

"According to the FBI, they did not. According to the CIA, they did. With all due respect, my view is, whether they did or not, the image of the United States of America throughout the world is a recruiting tool for Islamic extremists. And I got that from a former high-ranking al Qaeda in Iraq."

[treetopovskaya]

i don't see people hunting cows & pigs for food.

our gov's job is to keep us safe. what is obama going to do when we're attacked again... & it will happen don't fool yourselves. how is he going to get info out of someone in us custody who may know something? he banned all other forms of harsher interagations. don't you guys believe that our gov tried other means of getting info before having to use harsher methods? what if obama runs out of options? he has a guy in us custody... but can't get him to talk... planes are again hijacked & cities attacked & thousands are killed... obama would be f'ed.

thousands of innocent people killed but at least no terrorist were harmed.

i should have explained better. i never meant if anyone would be able to do it... with their own hands. hehehee. no way could i hurt someone... i don't even kill bugs... nothing dies around me... except house plants... & fish. that's why i no longer ever have fish as pets. };C)

for me i find it selfish for someone to let their beliefs & feelings get in the way of our gov doing what it takes to keep people safe & out of harms way. maybe my thoughts & feelings would be different pre-911. lots of heroes (the brave men & women who put their lives on the line each day to keep us safe) died that day... my heart still breaks for those who attended many funerals for people they lost that day.

obama is doing the right thing... saying he wants no investigation. hope he doesn't flip flop like he did last week. it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems. hopefully nothing happens on his watch... he's not going to know what to do. if we get someone in custody who knows something just how will we get them to talk? offer tea & cake? maybe obama can talk them into submission. }:CPP

Of course it is within a person's power to allegedly torture or interrogate someone.

You are, unless you have some outstanding medical or physical condition, capable of torture, whether it be mental or physical. It is within your power to do so; you simply refuse to facilitate it.

not within my power to torture another human being. it is quite simply not who i am. not in my belief system, not in my psyche. interrogate- sure. as a middle school teacher it's part of my job, lol.

So what your saying is, you believe in using torture methods only if someone else does the dirty work for you.

If you fully support a practice and thereby authorize it then your hands are just as dirty as the ones who are instructed to carry it out.

[RedWingFan]

i don't see people hunting cows & pigs for food.

Hey treetop, that's a really nice Anaheim Ducks sig. how fitting that it's colored in a "Liberace" glitter!!!

[treetopovskaya]

shut... the... front... door!

}:C)))

i don't see people hunting cows & pigs for food.

Hey treetop, that's a really nice Anaheim Ducks sig. how fitting that it's colored in a "Liberace" glitter!!!

[Jana]

An excerpt from an article re waterboarding and the CIA and IG entitled: "CIA official: No proof harsh techniques stopped terror attacks."

"The IG's report is among several indications that the Bush administration's use of abusive interrogation methods was less productive than some former administration officials have claimed.

Even some of those in the military who developed the techniques warned that the information they produced was "less reliable" than that gained by traditional psychological measures, and that using them would produce an "intolerable public and political backlash when discovered," according to a Senate Armed Services Committee report released on Tuesday.

President Bush told a September 2006 news conference that one plot, to attack a Los Angeles office tower, was "derailed" in early 2002 — before the harsh CIA interrogation measures were approved, contrary to those who claim that waterboarding revealed it.

Last December, FBI Director Robert Mueller told Vanity Fair magazine that he didn't believe that intelligence gleaned from abusive interrogation techniques had disrupted any attacks on America."

[The_Noble_Cause]

it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems.

Quote please?

hopefully nothing happens on his watch... he's not going to know what to do. if we get someone in custody who knows something just how will we get them to talk? offer tea & cake? maybe obama can talk them into submission. }:CPP

Torture has never been the only way to elicit intelligence.
Plenty of agents have come out against waterboarding.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Change of plans....Geneva may not be in play after all.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Appeals_c ... _0424.html

[treetopovskaya]

what are we going to believe & at what cost?

bottom line is obama shouldn't "declassify" top secret info that puts us at a greater risk... ESPECIALLY when we have our troops in harms way. obama could have just signed an executive order limiting or banning harsh interrogation instead of releasing the memos & dragging all this out into public.

our "enemies" are laughing at obama right now... not bush but at obama. he is naive.

An excerpt from an article re waterboarding and the CIA and IG entitled: "CIA official: No proof harsh techniques stopped terror attacks."

"The IG's report is among several indications that the Bush administration's use of abusive interrogation methods was less productive than some former administration officials have claimed.

Even some of those in the military who developed the techniques warned that the information they produced was "less reliable" than that gained by traditional psychological measures, and that using them would produce an "intolerable public and political backlash when discovered," according to a Senate Armed Services Committee report released on Tuesday.

President Bush told a September 2006 news conference that one plot, to attack a Los Angeles office tower, was "derailed" in early 2002 — before the harsh CIA interrogation measures were approved, contrary to those who claim that waterboarding revealed it.

Last December, FBI Director Robert Mueller told Vanity Fair magazine that he didn't believe that intelligence gleaned from abusive interrogation techniques had disrupted any attacks on America."

[The_Noble_Cause]

what are we going to believe & at what cost?

Look, i don't care what touchy-feely crap you couch it in.
You're defending criminality.
Everyone regrets Wilson, FDR, and Nixons' abuses in warrtime, and yet everyone on this board is advocating more of the same.
The scariest thing of all is, the conservative notion of reneging on treaties or changing the law doesn't even enter the equation.
You just want the President to do whatever he pleases - in spite of the fact that almost every power grab in history has been done under the guise of national security.

bottom line is obama shouldn't "declassify" top secret info that puts us at a greater risk... ESPECIALLY when we have our troops in harms way.

This has no basis in reality.
The terrorists will do whatever they please whether we stay true to our values or not.

our "enemies" are laughing at obama right now... not bush but at obama. he is naive.

Then it would appears you and Osama have something in common, besides upper lip hair.

[Blueskies]

i don't see people hunting cows & pigs for food.

our gov's job is to keep us safe. what is obama going to do when we're attacked again... & it will happen don't fool yourselves. how is he going to get info out of someone in us custody who may know something? he banned all other forms of harsher interagations. don't you guys believe that our gov tried other means of getting info before having to use harsher methods? what if obama runs out of options? he has a guy in us custody... but can't get him to talk... planes are again hijacked & cities attacked & thousands are killed... obama would be f'ed.

thousands of innocent people killed but at least no terrorist were harmed.

i should have explained better. i never meant if anyone would be able to do it... with their own hands. hehehee. no way could i hurt someone... i don't even kill bugs... nothing dies around me... except house plants... & fish. that's why i no longer ever have fish as pets. };C)

for me i find it selfish for someone to let their beliefs & feelings get in the way of our gov doing what it takes to keep people safe & out of harms way. maybe my thoughts & feelings would be different pre-911. lots of heroes (the brave men & women who put their lives on the line each day to keep us safe) died that day... my heart still breaks for those who attended many funerals for people they lost that day.

obama is doing the right thing... saying he wants no investigation. hope he doesn't flip flop like he did last week. it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems. hopefully nothing happens on his watch... he's not going to know what to do. if we get someone in custody who knows something just how will we get them to talk? offer tea & cake? maybe obama can talk them into submission. }:CPP

Of course it is within a person's power to allegedly torture or interrogate someone.

You are, unless you have some outstanding medical or physical condition, capable of torture, whether it be mental or physical. It is within your power to do so; you simply refuse to facilitate it.

not within my power to torture another human being. it is quite simply not who i am. not in my belief system, not in my psyche. interrogate- sure. as a middle school teacher it's part of my job, lol.

So what your saying is, you believe in using torture methods only if someone else does the dirty work for you.

If you fully support a practice and thereby authorize it then your hands are just as dirty as the ones who are instructed to carry it out.

So now you are saying out of sight out of mind. As long as you don't see it then it's ok? How is that a logical argument to what I said? It just goes to my point even further. Someone is doing the slaughter and if you support it to be done by purchasing and consuming the "cows and pigs" then your hands are bloody as well.....same as they are when you condone torture even if it's not directly done by your own hand...if you condone and support the practice then you have your hands in it.

There are ways to interrogate with intelligence rather than brute force and torture.
I'll also restate something I said previously in this thread....
If you resort to the same kinds of tactics as your enemies then you are no better then they are and therefore negate your justification for fighting against them in the first place. In other words...we supposedly went to war with people who do and did barbaric things....like the 9/11 terror attacks and things done to their own people, like in Saddam's case...or in possibly having weapons of mass destruction to do barbaric acts ( maybe some WMDs like we ourselves have) ...all reasons that were USED as a justification for going to war....if we then turn around and do things that are just as barbaric then we negate our justification....that's the problem when using torture tactics....we lose respect and it makes us no better...we lose our argument of justification for fighting in the first place.

Look at it this way...wasn't Mike Tyson condemned for biting Holyfield's ear? Wasn't that considered "dirty" fighting tactics and viewed as a weakness for having to resort to that..for being that low down....because Tyson may have felt he was losing and then lost it completely? Did Holyfield then turn around and do something the same like bite him back in retaliation? Who won? There are rules in boxing...we have used rules in war. Just because our enemies don't adhere to rules doesn't mean we shouldn't. We lose our justification..we lose our standing..and, imo , we will ultimately lose in the end if we do as they do.

[Eric]

An excerpt from an article re waterboarding and the CIA and IG entitled: "CIA official: No proof harsh techniques stopped terror attacks."

"The IG's report is among several indications that the Bush administration's use of abusive interrogation methods was less productive than some former administration officials have claimed.

Even some of those in the military who developed the techniques warned that the information they produced was "less reliable" than that gained by traditional psychological measures, and that using them would produce an "intolerable public and political backlash when discovered," according to a Senate Armed Services Committee report released on Tuesday.

President Bush told a September 2006 news conference that one plot, to attack a Los Angeles office tower, was "derailed" in early 2002 — before the harsh CIA interrogation measures were approved, contrary to those who claim that waterboarding revealed it.

Last December, FBI Director Robert Mueller told Vanity Fair magazine that he didn't believe that intelligence gleaned from abusive interrogation techniques had disrupted any attacks on America."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/11/ ... index.html

Despite not being in favor of it, this guys says it saved American lives.

[Lula]

An excerpt from an article re waterboarding and the CIA and IG entitled: "CIA official: No proof harsh techniques stopped terror attacks."

"The IG's report is among several indications that the Bush administration's use of abusive interrogation methods was less productive than some former administration officials have claimed.

Even some of those in the military who developed the techniques warned that the information they produced was "less reliable" than that gained by traditional psychological measures, and that using them would produce an "intolerable public and political backlash when discovered," according to a Senate Armed Services Committee report released on Tuesday.

President Bush told a September 2006 news conference that one plot, to attack a Los Angeles office tower, was "derailed" in early 2002 — before the harsh CIA interrogation measures were approved, contrary to those who claim that waterboarding revealed it.

Last December, FBI Director Robert Mueller told Vanity Fair magazine that he didn't believe that intelligence gleaned from abusive interrogation techniques had disrupted any attacks on America."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/11/ ... index.html

Despite not being in favor of it, this guys says it saved American lives.

seems to be stories to contradict stories. some say it works, some say it doesn't. i'm on the "doesn't work" side. i would rather err on the side of caution. it is not a good thing for the u.s. to have blood on her hands, not as we hold ourselves as a pillar of morality amongst nations.

[treetopovskaya]

there is a difference between us & our "enemies" we "torture" for a better good... they... just cut off your head. is that simple enough for you?

we should be thankin our gov for keeping us safe & pray to god they continue.

i don't see people hunting cows & pigs for food.

our gov's job is to keep us safe. what is obama going to do when we're attacked again... & it will happen don't fool yourselves. how is he going to get info out of someone in us custody who may know something? he banned all other forms of harsher interagations. don't you guys believe that our gov tried other means of getting info before having to use harsher methods? what if obama runs out of options? he has a guy in us custody... but can't get him to talk... planes are again hijacked & cities attacked & thousands are killed... obama would be f'ed.

thousands of innocent people killed but at least no terrorist were harmed.

i should have explained better. i never meant if anyone would be able to do it... with their own hands. hehehee. no way could i hurt someone... i don't even kill bugs... nothing dies around me... except house plants... & fish. that's why i no longer ever have fish as pets. };C)

for me i find it selfish for someone to let their beliefs & feelings get in the way of our gov doing what it takes to keep people safe & out of harms way. maybe my thoughts & feelings would be different pre-911. lots of heroes (the brave men & women who put their lives on the line each day to keep us safe) died that day... my heart still breaks for those who attended many funerals for people they lost that day.

obama is doing the right thing... saying he wants no investigation. hope he doesn't flip flop like he did last week. it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems. hopefully nothing happens on his watch... he's not going to know what to do. if we get someone in custody who knows something just how will we get them to talk? offer tea & cake? maybe obama can talk them into submission. }:CPP

Of course it is within a person's power to allegedly torture or interrogate someone.

You are, unless you have some outstanding medical or physical condition, capable of torture, whether it be mental or physical. It is within your power to do so; you simply refuse to facilitate it.

not within my power to torture another human being. it is quite simply not who i am. not in my belief system, not in my psyche. interrogate- sure. as a middle school teacher it's part of my job, lol.

So what your saying is, you believe in using torture methods only if someone else does the dirty work for you.

If you fully support a practice and thereby authorize it then your hands are just as dirty as the ones who are instructed to carry it out.

So now you are saying out of sight out of mind. As long as you don't see it then it's ok? How is that a logical argument to what I said? It just goes to my point even further. Someone is doing the slaughter and if you support it to be done by purchasing and consuming the "cows and pigs" then your hands are bloody as well.....same as they are when you condone torture even if it's not directly done by your own hand...if you condone and support the practice then you have your hands in it.

There are ways to interrogate with intelligence rather than brute force and torture.
I'll also restate something I said previously in this thread....
If you resort to the same kinds of tactics as your enemies then you are no better then they are and therefore negate your justification for fighting against them in the first place. In other words...we supposedly went to war with people who do and did barbaric things....like the 9/11 terror attacks and things done to their own people, like in Saddam's case...or in possibly having weapons of mass destruction to do barbaric acts ( maybe some WMDs like we ourselves have) ...all reasons that were USED as a justification for going to war....if we then turn around and do things that are just as barbaric then we negate our justification....that's the problem when using torture tactics....we lose respect and it makes us no better...we lose our argument of justification for fighting in the first place.

Look at it this way...wasn't Mike Tyson condemned for biting Holyfield's ear? Wasn't that considered "dirty" fighting tactics and viewed as a weakness for having to resort to that..for being that low down....because Tyson may have felt he was losing and then lost it completely? Did Holyfield then turn around and do something the same like bite him back in retaliation? Who won? There are rules in boxing...we have used rules in war. Just because our enemies don't adhere to rules doesn't mean we shouldn't. We lose our justification..we lose our standing..and, imo , we will ultimately lose in the end if we do.

[treetopovskaya]

let me ask this...

why should we give a flying fuck what nations who hate us think of us?

(hey lula... can you send selanne a quick note? no more turnovers please. thanks! }:C))

An excerpt from an article re waterboarding and the CIA and IG entitled: "CIA official: No proof harsh techniques stopped terror attacks."

"The IG's report is among several indications that the Bush administration's use of abusive interrogation methods was less productive than some former administration officials have claimed.

Even some of those in the military who developed the techniques warned that the information they produced was "less reliable" than that gained by traditional psychological measures, and that using them would produce an "intolerable public and political backlash when discovered," according to a Senate Armed Services Committee report released on Tuesday.

President Bush told a September 2006 news conference that one plot, to attack a Los Angeles office tower, was "derailed" in early 2002 — before the harsh CIA interrogation measures were approved, contrary to those who claim that waterboarding revealed it.

Last December, FBI Director Robert Mueller told Vanity Fair magazine that he didn't believe that intelligence gleaned from abusive interrogation techniques had disrupted any attacks on America."

seems to be stories to contradict stories. some say it works, some say it doesn't. i'm on the "doesn't work" side. i would rather err on the side of caution. it is not a good thing for the u.s. to have blood on her hands, not as we hold ourselves as a pillar of morality amongst nations.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/11/ ... index.html

Despite not being in favor of it, this guys says it saved American lives.

[treetopovskaya]

hear comes the insults.

when one runs out of things to say they start to throw personal attacks.

what are we going to believe & at what cost?

Look, i don't care what touchy-feely crap you couch it in.
You're defending criminality.
Everyone regrets Wilson, FDR, and Nixons' abuses in warrtime, and yet everyone on this board is advocating more of the same.
The scariest thing of all is, the conservative notion of reneging on treaties or changing the law doesn't even enter the equation.
You just want the President to do whatever he pleases - in spite of the fact that almost every power grab in history has been done under the guise of national security.

bottom line is obama shouldn't "declassify" top secret info that puts us at a greater risk... ESPECIALLY when we have our troops in harms way.

This has no basis in reality.
The terrorists will do whatever they please whether we stay true to our values or not.

our "enemies" are laughing at obama right now... not bush but at obama. he is naive.

Then it would appears you and Osama have something in common, besides upper lip hair.

[Blueskies]

there is a difference between us & our "enemies" we "torture" for a better good... they... just cut off your head. is that simple enough for you?

we should be thankin our gov for keeping us safe & pray to god they continue.

i don't see people hunting cows & pigs for food.

our gov's job is to keep us safe. what is obama going to do when we're attacked again... & it will happen don't fool yourselves. how is he going to get info out of someone in us custody who may know something? he banned all other forms of harsher interagations. don't you guys believe that our gov tried other means of getting info before having to use harsher methods? what if obama runs out of options? he has a guy in us custody... but can't get him to talk... planes are again hijacked & cities attacked & thousands are killed... obama would be f'ed.

thousands of innocent people killed but at least no terrorist were harmed.

i should have explained better. i never meant if anyone would be able to do it... with their own hands. hehehee. no way could i hurt someone... i don't even kill bugs... nothing dies around me... except house plants... & fish. that's why i no longer ever have fish as pets. };C)

for me i find it selfish for someone to let their beliefs & feelings get in the way of our gov doing what it takes to keep people safe & out of harms way. maybe my thoughts & feelings would be different pre-911. lots of heroes (the brave men & women who put their lives on the line each day to keep us safe) died that day... my heart still breaks for those who attended many funerals for people they lost that day.

obama is doing the right thing... saying he wants no investigation. hope he doesn't flip flop like he did last week. it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems. hopefully nothing happens on his watch... he's not going to know what to do. if we get someone in custody who knows something just how will we get them to talk? offer tea & cake? maybe obama can talk them into submission. }:CPP

Of course it is within a person's power to allegedly torture or interrogate someone.

You are, unless you have some outstanding medical or physical condition, capable of torture, whether it be mental or physical. It is within your power to do so; you simply refuse to facilitate it.

not within my power to torture another human being. it is quite simply not who i am. not in my belief system, not in my psyche. interrogate- sure. as a middle school teacher it's part of my job, lol.

So what your saying is, you believe in using torture methods only if someone else does the dirty work for you.

If you fully support a practice and thereby authorize it then your hands are just as dirty as the ones who are instructed to carry it out.

So now you are saying out of sight out of mind. As long as you don't see it then it's ok? How is that a logical argument to what I said? It just goes to my point even further. Someone is doing the slaughter and if you support it to be done by purchasing and consuming the "cows and pigs" then your hands are bloody as well.....same as they are when you condone torture even if it's not directly done by your own hand...if you condone and support the practice then you have your hands in it.

There are ways to interrogate with intelligence rather than brute force and torture.
I'll also restate something I said previously in this thread....
If you resort to the same kinds of tactics as your enemies then you are no better then they are and therefore negate your justification for fighting against them in the first place. In other words...we supposedly went to war with people who do and did barbaric things....like the 9/11 terror attacks and things done to their own people, like in Saddam's case...or in possibly having weapons of mass destruction to do barbaric acts ( maybe some WMDs like we ourselves have) ...all reasons that were USED as a justification for going to war....if we then turn around and do things that are just as barbaric then we negate our justification....that's the problem when using torture tactics....we lose respect and it makes us no better...we lose our argument of justification for fighting in the first place.

Look at it this way...wasn't Mike Tyson condemned for biting Holyfield's ear? Wasn't that considered "dirty" fighting tactics and viewed as a weakness for having to resort to that..for being that low down....because Tyson may have felt he was losing and then lost it completely? Did Holyfield then turn around and do something the same like bite him back in retaliation? Who won? There are rules in boxing...we have used rules in war. Just because our enemies don't adhere to rules doesn't mean we shouldn't. We lose our justification..we lose our standing..and, imo , we will ultimately lose in the end if we do.

"We torture for the better good" ???? You answered too quickly and obviously did not take anything I said into account...your response shows that you don't want to take what anyone else is saying into consideration at all and will only stubbornly stick to what you think ...so why come in to even discuss the issue if your not willing to "discuss" and just cop out with "our government protects us"? So we should just agree with everything our government does and blindly follow...no dissenting opinions. Where would this country be without disagreement and dissent allowed? Sounds like communism to me. You won't come back with a reasonable defense of your stance.... I explained my stance in several ways...wasn't the Tyson analogy simple enough for you?

[The_Noble_Cause]

hear comes the insults.

Oh, so the use of "lib freaks" wasn't an insult?
Or, how about your insinuation that our President doesn't like America? (still waiting on that quote, by the way)
Or, that he somehow eagerly wants to invite another attack on US soil?

Personally, I've seen posters make Andrew's shitlist for far less.

..when one runs out of things to say they start to throw personal attacks.

Actually, I'm one of the few posters in this thread on substantive footing.
Most, like you, are arguing out of some fluffy Bush-esque "gut instict" of what feels right, and not what the US is obligated to by law.

[Blueskies]

Tree...could you please quote from the bottom so everyone doesn't have to skip up and down to see what you said that is being responded too? It would make the conversation flow much better if you could.

[Lula]

(hey lula... can you send selanne a quick note? no more turnovers please. thanks! }:C))

road trip for tonight's game!! my brother-in-law works for osh and has access to their box at the tank..... shoulda planned better!

[treetopovskaya]

the purpose of "harsh interrogation/torture" is not retetribution/punishment/intimidation but to get info out of someone. there is a difference. if we started cutting peoples heads off... then i would have a prob. it's not the same.

what do you think we torture ppl for? let me ask you that.

there is a difference between us & our "enemies" we "torture" for a better good... they... just cut off your head. is that simple enough for you?

we should be thankin our gov for keeping us safe & pray to god they continue.

i don't see people hunting cows & pigs for food.

our gov's job is to keep us safe. what is obama going to do when we're attacked again... & it will happen don't fool yourselves. how is he going to get info out of someone in us custody who may know something? he banned all other forms of harsher interagations. don't you guys believe that our gov tried other means of getting info before having to use harsher methods? what if obama runs out of options? he has a guy in us custody... but can't get him to talk... planes are again hijacked & cities attacked & thousands are killed... obama would be f'ed.

thousands of innocent people killed but at least no terrorist were harmed.

i should have explained better. i never meant if anyone would be able to do it... with their own hands. hehehee. no way could i hurt someone... i don't even kill bugs... nothing dies around me... except house plants... & fish. that's why i no longer ever have fish as pets. };C)

for me i find it selfish for someone to let their beliefs & feelings get in the way of our gov doing what it takes to keep people safe & out of harms way. maybe my thoughts & feelings would be different pre-911. lots of heroes (the brave men & women who put their lives on the line each day to keep us safe) died that day... my heart still breaks for those who attended many funerals for people they lost that day.

obama is doing the right thing... saying he wants no investigation. hope he doesn't flip flop like he did last week. it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems. hopefully nothing happens on his watch... he's not going to know what to do. if we get someone in custody who knows something just how will we get them to talk? offer tea & cake? maybe obama can talk them into submission. }:CPP

Of course it is within a person's power to allegedly torture or interrogate someone.

You are, unless you have some outstanding medical or physical condition, capable of torture, whether it be mental or physical. It is within your power to do so; you simply refuse to facilitate it.

not within my power to torture another human being. it is quite simply not who i am. not in my belief system, not in my psyche. interrogate- sure. as a middle school teacher it's part of my job, lol.

So what your saying is, you believe in using torture methods only if someone else does the dirty work for you.

If you fully support a practice and thereby authorize it then your hands are just as dirty as the ones who are instructed to carry it out.

So now you are saying out of sight out of mind. As long as you don't see it then it's ok? How is that a logical argument to what I said? It just goes to my point even further. Someone is doing the slaughter and if you support it to be done by purchasing and consuming the "cows and pigs" then your hands are bloody as well.....same as they are when you condone torture even if it's not directly done by your own hand...if you condone and support the practice then you have your hands in it.

There are ways to interrogate with intelligence rather than brute force and torture.
I'll also restate something I said previously in this thread....
If you resort to the same kinds of tactics as your enemies then you are no better then they are and therefore negate your justification for fighting against them in the first place. In other words...we supposedly went to war with people who do and did barbaric things....like the 9/11 terror attacks and things done to their own people, like in Saddam's case...or in possibly having weapons of mass destruction to do barbaric acts ( maybe some WMDs like we ourselves have) ...all reasons that were USED as a justification for going to war....if we then turn around and do things that are just as barbaric then we negate our justification....that's the problem when using torture tactics....we lose respect and it makes us no better...we lose our argument of justification for fighting in the first place.

Look at it this way...wasn't Mike Tyson condemned for biting Holyfield's ear? Wasn't that considered "dirty" fighting tactics and viewed as a weakness for having to resort to that..for being that low down....because Tyson may have felt he was losing and then lost it completely? Did Holyfield then turn around and do something the same like bite him back in retaliation? Who won? There are rules in boxing...we have used rules in war. Just because our enemies don't adhere to rules doesn't mean we shouldn't. We lose our justification..we lose our standing..and, imo , we will ultimately lose in the end if we do.

"We torture for the better good" ???? You answered too quickly and obviously did not take anything I said into account...your response shows that you don't want to take what anyone else is saying into consideration at all and will only stubbornly stick to what you think ...so why come in to even discuss the issue if your not willing to "discuss" and just cop out with "our government protects us"? So we should just agree with everything our government does and blindly follow...no dissenting opinions. Where would this country be without disagreement and dissent allowed? Sounds like communism to me. You won't come back with a reasonable defense of your stance.... I explained my stance in several ways...wasn't the Tyson analogy simple enough for you?

[treetopovskaya]

you might not have made it out alive win or lose tho! }:C))

(hey lula... can you send selanne a quick note? no more turnovers please. thanks! }:C))

road trip for tonight's game!! my brother-in-law works for osh and has access to their box at the tank..... shoulda planned better!

[Jana]

An excerpt from an article re waterboarding and the CIA and IG entitled: "CIA official: No proof harsh techniques stopped terror attacks."

"The IG's report is among several indications that the Bush administration's use of abusive interrogation methods was less productive than some former administration officials have claimed.

Even some of those in the military who developed the techniques warned that the information they produced was "less reliable" than that gained by traditional psychological measures, and that using them would produce an "intolerable public and political backlash when discovered," according to a Senate Armed Services Committee report released on Tuesday.

President Bush told a September 2006 news conference that one plot, to attack a Los Angeles office tower, was "derailed" in early 2002 — before the harsh CIA interrogation measures were approved, contrary to those who claim that waterboarding revealed it.

Last December, FBI Director Robert Mueller told Vanity Fair magazine that he didn't believe that intelligence gleaned from abusive interrogation techniques had disrupted any attacks on America."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/11/ ... index.html

Despite not being in favor of it, this guys says it saved American lives.

seems to be stories to contradict stories. some say it works, some say it doesn't. i'm on the "doesn't work" side. i would rather err on the side of caution. it is not a good thing for the u.s. to have blood on her hands, not as we hold ourselves as a pillar of morality amongst nations.

Thus McCain's comments on that:

"Asked to respond to reports from pro-torture officials who claim the practice yielded good intelligence, McCain didn't budge:

"According to the FBI, they did not. According to the CIA, they did. With all due respect, my view is, whether they did or not, the image of the United States of America throughout the world is a recruiting tool for Islamic extremists. And I got that from a former high-ranking al Qaeda in Iraq."