OT: VAN DAMMAGE!!! (YoungJRNY Alert)

[Rip Rokken]

I know YoungJRNY has to be into some JCVD. I've always been a huge fan of Jean-Claude Van Damme, and started watching a few of his newer films a year or so ago -- some like "Wake Of Death", "In Hell" and "The Hard Corps" were surprisingly good and a lot more original, unlike most of the dreck Steven Seagal churns out (wasting his talent to crank out 6 or more films per year). In movies like "Wake Of Death" I was surprised at how good of an actor he really can be with the right part.

So anyway, I notice on Netflix a while back that he was putting out one called "JCVD" in which he plays himself in a very revealing performance, and added it to my queue. Didn't realize it was just released on video and picked it up at Best Buy last night, and it's really cool! Getting great reviews and comments from places like Time Magazine (said he deserved an Oscar), Variety, and the Boston Globe. The reader reviews on IMDB are excellent as well.

I'm not sure how much of his personal situation is based on fact, but I'm guessing it hits pretty close to home and it must be hard to show yourself that way and kind of bust open your own myth. An excellent performance with lots of emotion from JC.

Most of the film takes place in Belgium and is primarily in French w/English subtitles, but there is a dubbed English version on the disc as well. Here is the trailer, but it makes it look a lot more polished than it is. If you are a Van Damme fan, you just have to see it. I noticed you can watch it online on Netflix as well.

http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi359464985/

[Ehwmatt]

Street Fighter, adapted from the video game, is his best role ever.

[Rip Rokken]

Street Fighter, adapted from the video game, is his best role ever.

You know, I only saw that movie once and can't remember liking it that much. Strangely, I always really enjoyed "Cyborg". It was kind of surreal and artistic, but if you watch it just as an action movie it probably seemed horrible with bad dialog. I think I just "got" what they were doing with it. Same thing with "The Punisher: War Zone", which far exceeded my expectations.

[Gideon]

Street Fighter, adapted from the video game, is his best role ever.

You are a sad, sad creature.

Universal Soldier ftw.

[Ehwmatt]

Street Fighter, adapted from the video game, is his best role ever.

You know, I only saw that movie once and can't remember liking it that much. Strangely, I always really enjoyed "Cyborg". It was kind of surreal and artistic, but if you watch it just as an action movie it probably seemed horrible with bad dialog. I think I just "got" what they were doing with it. Same thing with "The Punisher: War Zone", which far exceeded my expectations.

Definitely joking... SF was HORRIBLE. I haven't seen too many JCVD movies lately, but I wouldn't mind seeing that one titled after him where he plays himself... how's that one? I also like that one where maybe he has a twin brother? That's all I can remember about the plot. I think the title had "Double" or "Dual" some kinda "two" word in it...

I'm definitely a little more schooled in Steven Seagal movies, since USA/TNT play them more

While I'm at it: http://www.somethingreallyfunny.com/ste ... -chart.htm

[Maui Tom]

this is his best work...by a LOT...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHJ0v4RPfEs

[Rip Rokken]

Street Fighter, adapted from the video game, is his best role ever.

You are a sad, sad creature.

Universal Soldier ftw.

Looks like he's in a new Universal Soldier that is currently in post production. I didn't see the last one he was in ("Universal Soldier" - The Return"). Caught a few minutes of the last DTV sequel they made before bringing him back, and it was incredibly horrible -- extremely amateurish. One of those cases where they make a quick buck by selling the franchise rights off to anyone, I guess. I noticed the alternate title of this one is "Universal Soldier 3: Next Generation", ignoring the other 2 or 3 DTV sequels. Probably a good idea.

[Gideon]

Street Fighter, adapted from the video game, is his best role ever.

You are a sad, sad creature.

Universal Soldier ftw.

Looks like he's in a new Universal Soldier that is currently in post production. I didn't see the last one he was in ("Universal Soldier" - The Return"). Caught a few minutes of the last DTV sequel they made before bringing him back, and it was incredibly horrible -- extremely amateurish. One of those cases where they make a quick buck by selling the franchise rights off to anyone, I guess. I noticed the alternate title of this one is "Universal Soldier 3: Next Generation", ignoring the other 2 or 3 DTV sequels. Probably a good idea.

Here's the question... Don Dokken vs. JCVD.

[Rip Rokken]

I haven't seen too many JCVD movies lately, but I wouldn't mind seeing that one titled after him where he plays himself... how's that one? I also like that one where maybe he has a twin brother? That's all I can remember about the plot. I think the title had "Double" or "Dual" some kinda "two" word in it...

I'm definitely a little more schooled in Steven Seagal movies, since USA/TNT play them more

While I'm at it: http://www.somethingreallyfunny.com/ste ... -chart.htm

I really enjoyed "Double Impact", and he's done other characters very similar to both the nice guy and bad guy he did in that film.

These are some of my favorites -- really some of the better films he's done beyond the guilty pleasures like "Bloodsport" and "Kickboxer":

"Nowhere To Run" with Rosanna Arquette and Ted Levine -- I LOVE this film and have probably seen it more than any other.

"Hard Target" -- John Woo! What else can you say?

"Timecop" -- pretty original at the time and they are still making sequels from it (I haven't seen any of them). Great love scene with Mia Sara!

"Legionnaire" -- only saw it once, but remember being impressed.

"Replicant" -- another sci-fi film and I believe he also played two roles as in Double-Impact. I really enjoyed it.

"In Hell" -- great pic set in a prison. Very gritty and not what you'd expect.

"Wake of Death" -- loved this film. Excellent acting from Van Damme and great direction -- very artistic in places.

"The Hard Corps" -- more straight up buddy team-up film with a hip-hop dude, but not bad at all.

"Second In Command" -- I liked this much more than I thought I would.


Segal's problem is that he's been releasing several films a year for the past few years, and apparently doesn't have time to go back and do post-production on many of them, so many of them have someone trying to sound like him doing the overdubs -- really takes you out of the film. The quality of most of them are terrible are are killing his career. "Attack Force" was probably the worst from what I hear, but I haven't seen it. I tried to watch "Submerged" and it was just so horribly edited it didn't make sense -- there was one really out of place scene during a badly stitched together fight where he calls the guy, "Cock-sucker Motherf***er" that really came out of nowhere and gave me a huge laugh.

Seagal also rarely shows a human side, and is just a caricature of himself these days. Too invincible and you never see him get hit in the face. Also doesn't even do a lot of his own action anymore and that takes away from his credibility as a "martial arts" star.

Still, occasionally he puts one out that is surprisingly decent, such as "Belly of the Beast", and "Out of Reach". I just saw "Flight of Fury" last weekend when I found the DVD for $3, and though extremely formulaic, it was better than I thought it would be and I liked the supporting cast. Maybe just not hearing someone else dubbing his lines helped it out a good deal.

Haven't seen "The Onion Movie" yet, but the trailer looks hilarious with him playing "Cock Puncher"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQKAydHA4J4



If Seagal would lose some weight and and drop the faux-Cajun accent that seemed to stick after "Under Siege", and do something along the lines of "JCVD", he might get a career boost as well. He lives in Memphis, TN these days, and a friend of mine did the hardwood floors in his house.

[Ehwmatt]

How could I forget Timecop, a classic. I'll have to check these other flicks out, thanks Rip.

[Rip Rokken]

How could I forget Timecop, a classic. I'll have to check these other flicks out, thanks Rip.

No problem, and hope you enjoy! There was news last week I think that JC and Seagal were being paired for the first time in a movie, and that will be interesting if it happens. I just found a trailer for Seagal's latest and it looks like a step up for sure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWE971Wrfps

But they've since changed the title from "Ruslan" to "Driven To Kill" which is I think is a mistake. They need to let these guys breathe a bit instead of exploiting their stereotypes so bad, and something like a 3 word title in a Seagal flick gives a bad impression right out of the box. Give Seagal fresh material, a good director and don't give him too much control over the film and I think he could still do something really worth seeing. This is one of the themes Jean-Claude covers in "JCVD".

[Rockindeano]

Remember "Sudden Death" when JCVD has to play goalie for the Penguins in the Stanley Cup Finals? That was the most ridiculous shit I have ever seen.

[Rip Rokken]

Remember "Sudden Death" when JCVD has to play goalie for the Penguins in the Stanley Cup Finals? That was the most ridiculous shit I have ever seen.

That was a crap film for sure. Another action/sports combo movie that sucked hard was Bruce Willis's "The Last Boy Scout". It lost me right after it started with a football player pulling out a gun and shooting another player during a play. Give me a break... LOL

[kgdjpubs]

"Hard Target" -- John Woo! What else can you say?

I don't know if you know this, but John Woo had a LOT of problems with the MPAA at the time, and the film that was eventually released was drastically different than the original cut of the film. If you thought there was a big difference in the filming/editing of the action scenes compared to Woo's earlier work, that's the reason why. There is a bootleg floating around of one of the test screenings that is about 30 minutes longer, and discounting quality, a MUCH better film.

Same thing happened with the Ringo Lam-directed Maximum Risk, which I think is probably one of JCVD's better films. Apparently the test audience didn't like the Natasha Henstridge character, massive reshoots happened, and Ringo Lam basically disowned the final cut of the film. Don't know of any early cuts floating around of that one though.

[Blueskies]

Dokken sucks

[Rip Rokken]

"Hard Target" -- John Woo! What else can you say?

I don't know if you know this, but John Woo had a LOT of problems with the MPAA at the time, and the film that was eventually released was drastically different than the original cut of the film. If you thought there was a big difference in the filming/editing of the action scenes compared to Woo's earlier work, that's the reason why. There is a bootleg floating around of one of the test screenings that is about 30 minutes longer, and discounting quality, a MUCH better film.

Same thing happened with the Ringo Lam-directed Maximum Risk, which I think is probably one of JCVD's better films. Apparently the test audience didn't like the Natasha Henstridge character, massive reshoots happened, and Ringo Lam basically disowned the final cut of the film. Don't know of any early cuts floating around of that one though.

Funny that John Woo gets discussed in the new film as well. I would love to see the longer version of the film and will look for it. I remember very little of "Maximum Risk" and am not even sure I sat thru the whole thing. I need to check it out again.

[S2M]

Both these guys I have have dubbed, 'STV'....Straight to Video.

[verslibre]

I really enjoyed "Double Impact"

Sorry to hear it.

These are some of my favorites -- really some of the better films he's done beyond the guilty pleasures like "Bloodsport" and "Kickboxer"

Why are they guilty pleasures? Those are still his two best films. Come on, he's never going to top those. They're the perfect mix of action and camp, and despite being so "80s" they're effin' cool!

"Nowhere To Run" with Rosanna Arquette and Ted Levine -- I LOVE this film and have probably seen it more than any other.

"Hard Target" -- John Woo! What else can you say?

What I can say is, while decent, Woo's done much better.

"Timecop" -- pretty original at the time and they are still making sequels from it (I haven't seen any of them). Great love scene with Mia Sara!

It's "original" because it's based on the comic (as in book).

"Legionnaire" -- only saw it once, but remember being impressed.

"Replicant" -- another sci-fi film and I believe he also played two roles as in Double-Impact. I really enjoyed it.

"In Hell" -- great pic set in a prison. Very gritty and not what you'd expect.

That flick was a joke!

"Wake of Death" -- loved this film. Excellent acting from Van Damme and great direction -- very artistic in places.

"The Hard Corps" -- more straight up buddy team-up film with a hip-hop dude, but not bad at all.

"Second In Command" -- I liked this much more than I thought I would.

Sorry, man, most of those movies are pretty cruddy. The ONE movie that is actually pretty solid, that you didn't mention, is Lionheart. It could've followed up Kickboxer but came out years later. Desert Heat isn't bad, either; it's interesting for (again) its campiness and the characters therein. The Quest was another rehash of Bloodsport and it disappoints with its lame finale fight with Michael Qumran, JCVD's friend who also appeared in Bloodsport and Lionheart. They made him up to look drastically different in all three films.

Segal's problem is that he's been releasing several films a year for the past few years, and apparently doesn't have time to go back and do post-production on many of them, so many of them have someone trying to sound like him doing the overdubs -- really takes you out of the film. The quality of most of them are terrible are are killing his career. "Attack Force" was probably the worst from what I hear, but I haven't seen it. I tried to watch "Submerged" and it was just so horribly edited it didn't make sense -- there was one really out of place scene during a badly stitched together fight where he calls the guy, "Cock-sucker Motherf***er" that really came out of nowhere and gave me a huge laugh.

That's about all Seagal is good for these days: a huge laugh. Seagal's problem is that he's just not an actor. He's an aikido practitioner who managed to get into the film industry.

Seagal also rarely shows a human side, and is just a caricature of himself these days. Too invincible and you never see him get hit in the face. Also doesn't even do a lot of his own action anymore and that takes away from his credibility as a "martial arts" star.

Again, he's just not a good actor. And his fight choreography has always been sub-par.

If Seagal would lose some weight and and drop the faux-Cajun accent that seemed to stick after "Under Siege", and do something along the lines of "JCVD", he might get a career boost as well. He lives in Memphis, TN these days, and a friend of mine did the hardwood floors in his house.

Seagal's busy with his "career" as a musician.

[kgdjpubs]

"Hard Target" -- John Woo! What else can you say?

I don't know if you know this, but John Woo had a LOT of problems with the MPAA at the time, and the film that was eventually released was drastically different than the original cut of the film. If you thought there was a big difference in the filming/editing of the action scenes compared to Woo's earlier work, that's the reason why. There is a bootleg floating around of one of the test screenings that is about 30 minutes longer, and discounting quality, a MUCH better film.

Same thing happened with the Ringo Lam-directed Maximum Risk, which I think is probably one of JCVD's better films. Apparently the test audience didn't like the Natasha Henstridge character, massive reshoots happened, and Ringo Lam basically disowned the final cut of the film. Don't know of any early cuts floating around of that one though.

Funny that John Woo gets discussed in the new film as well. I would love to see the longer version of the film and will look for it. I remember very little of "Maximum Risk" and am not even sure I sat thru the whole thing. I need to check it out again.

I think the official comment for it is a "workprint". It's the one that has the timecode on the film, if that helps. Running time should be somewhere between 1:50 and 2hrs. If you can't find it, send me a pm and I'll try to dub you off a copy. it would be great to get a release-quality copy of it, but I don't think that has much chance of happening.

Maximum Risk is the one with the Russian Mafia, if that rings any bells.

[kgdjpubs]

"Hard Target" -- John Woo! What else can you say?

What I can say is, while decent, Woo's done much better.

No doubt, but the workprint/director's cut is a MUCH better film. Hopefully, his new one will be available here soon. Should be interesting to see with him back in China.

That's about all Seagal is good for these days: a huge laugh. Seagal's problem is that he's just not an actor. He's an aikido practitioner who managed to get into the film industry.

Again, he's just not a good actor. And his fight choreography has always been sub-par.

I dunno....some of the early stuff was pretty decent, and, IMO, better than JCVD's movies. Under Siege was a solid movie, and Above the Law was nothing to sneeze at. Of course, both of those were directed by Andrew Davis, who did one of Chuck Norris' better films in Code of Silence and, of course, The Fugitive. Maybe the credit should be given to him for those 2 movies coming out decent. Seagal probably just lucked out in being in the right place at the time, with a very good physical presence and very skilled at aikido--which virtually nobody had heard of before.

As far as fight choreography, I remember Marked for Death being quite good--especially the sword fight at the end. I'm not sure that aikido really lends itself to long drawn-out fights though like the other styles. You really have to make it like a 4-on-1 to get a good scene. Not sure Seagal ever fought anyone that would provide a "real" challenge either on film, unlike some other martial artists (ie Jackie Chan, etc.)

Speaking of fight choreography, was watching the original Project A that Jackie did in the early 80s. With his recent output, it's easy to forget just how good--and downright crazy--he was in his prime.

[S2M]

Jet Li movies have the best fighting choreography. Wo Ping is tops in this category. Bar none.

[kgdjpubs]

Jet Li movies have the best fighting choreography. Wo Ping is tops in this category. Bar none.

I'll go 50/50 on this. Yes, I agree with you...but the Sammo Hung-directed Jackie films are no slouch either. Both Sammo and Yuen Woo Ping and both REALLY good in choreographing fight sequences--and getting the most of of the actor. Jet Li is pretty much a straight-forward fight, whereas Jackie usually does the props and stunts mixed in. Different styles, but the Jet Li/Yuen Woo Ping combination is hard to beat.

[Rip Rokken]

I think the official comment for it is a "workprint". It's the one that has the timecode on the film, if that helps. Running time should be somewhere between 1:50 and 2hrs. If you can't find it, send me a pm and I'll try to dub you off a copy. it would be great to get a release-quality copy of it, but I don't think that has much chance of happening.

Here is a great article describing it, including descriptions of all the differences between the two versions:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Gulf/1857/htduv.html

[kgdjpubs]

I think the official comment for it is a "workprint". It's the one that has the timecode on the film, if that helps. Running time should be somewhere between 1:50 and 2hrs. If you can't find it, send me a pm and I'll try to dub you off a copy. it would be great to get a release-quality copy of it, but I don't think that has much chance of happening.

Here is a great article describing it, including descriptions of all the differences between the two versions:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Gulf/1857/htduv.html

yea, that's it...but the editing changes make it feel very different in tone. A lot of the John Woo slow-motion and freeze frames and stuff was taken out of the final version--all the stuff that makes it feel like a John Woo film. There's actually a longer version of the comparison that was around at one point that was more comprehensive than that page.

Here's another page that talks a bit about the final showdown as to how it was supposed to go down before being hacked...
http://www.godamongdirectors.com/woo/faq/target.html

[Frontiers65]

I have many of the Van Damme movies you guy's are talking about, my fav being Timecop. I have Cyborg and the funny thing is with this movie is when Van Damme is on the cross and breaks free from it, it sounds like he is screaming, "VAN DAMME"! Watch it and tell me if you can hear this.

[Rip Rokken]

These are some of my favorites -- really some of the better films he's done beyond the guilty pleasures like "Bloodsport" and "Kickboxer"

Why are they guilty pleasures? Those are still his two best films. Come on, he's never going to top those. They're the perfect mix of action and camp, and despite being so "80s" they're effin' cool!

I loved both of those, but they all are really B-movie quality and I think it's the camp you mention, or the cheese (especially in "Bloodsport"). Bad dialog and acting, but great action. "Lionheart" was probably the best of the three and I really, really enjoyed it, but I didn't like the direction where they show the same kick fro 8 different angles. At least they gave full shots of the action instead of all this confusing quick-cut crap that's taken the place in so many modern films. I believe "Lionheart" was a Golan Globus film, which lessens the quality right off the bat. The basic story of him being a fugitive was similar in ways to "Bloodsport".

When I first heard of "Bloodsport" I was really excited, but the picture wasn't exactly what I'd hoped for. I was thinking it would be more seriously shot (something more along the lines of "Cinderella Man"), but the story was very thin and just tied together by excellent fighting scenes. By the way, I've read that Frank Dux's credibility is pretty much shot, and even Van Damme himself has spoken out against him. Way too much Bull-shido that goes on in the martial arts world.

Sorry, man, most of those movies are pretty cruddy. The ONE movie that is actually pretty solid, that you didn't mention, is Lionheart. It could've followed up Kickboxer but came out years later. Desert Heat isn't bad, either; it's interesting for (again) its campiness and the characters therein. The Quest was another rehash of Bloodsport and it disappoints with its lame finale fight with Michael Qumran, JCVD's friend who also appeared in Bloodsport and Lionheart. They made him up to look drastically different in all three films.

We must look at most of these different, as we hardly agree on any of them... haha! I enjoyed "Desert Heat" too, and still remember that little song Danny Trejo sang in it:

Cigarettes and Whisky and Wild, Wild Women
They'll drive you crazy; They'll drive you insane

I was nothing but disappointed in "The Quest". Lots of talking it up, but it turned out to be nothing but another poorly done "Bloodsport" imitation.

That's about all Seagal is good for these days: a huge laugh. Seagal's problem is that he's just not an actor. He's an aikido practitioner who managed to get into the film industry.

In his better films, he's still a heck of a screen presence and an enigma, really. But I think his ego really has hurt him over the years, and he's just parodied himself in too many bad films -- too whispery, too cocky, just overboard. The first Seagal film I really didn't like was also the first one (I believe) he directed himself -- "On Deadly Ground". Talk about overly self-indulgent. My dad and I agree that Steven should never direct himself in a film.

[Rip Rokken]

Jet Li movies have the best fighting choreography. Wo Ping is tops in this category. Bar none.

I've heard "Fist of Legend" has about the best fight sequences ever seen in a martial arts movie. I finally bought a copy recently but haven't finished watching it. Was really pleased that this is a story companion to "Invincible", which I loved.

[Rip Rokken]

That's about all Seagal is good for these days: a huge laugh. Seagal's problem is that he's just not an actor. He's an aikido practitioner who managed to get into the film industry.

Again, he's just not a good actor. And his fight choreography has always been sub-par.

I dunno....some of the early stuff was pretty decent, and, IMO, better than JCVD's movies. Under Siege was a solid movie, and Above the Law was nothing to sneeze at. Of course, both of those were directed by Andrew Davis, who did one of Chuck Norris' better films in Code of Silence and, of course, The Fugitive. Maybe the credit should be given to him for those 2 movies coming out decent. Seagal probably just lucked out in being in the right place at the time, with a very good physical presence and very skilled at aikido--which virtually nobody had heard of before.

As far as fight choreography, I remember Marked for Death being quite good--especially the sword fight at the end. I'm not sure that aikido really lends itself to long drawn-out fights though like the other styles. You really have to make it like a 4-on-1 to get a good scene. Not sure Seagal ever fought anyone that would provide a "real" challenge either on film, unlike some other martial artists (ie Jackie Chan, etc.)

Speaking of fight choreography, was watching the original Project A that Jackie did in the early 80s. With his recent output, it's easy to forget just how good--and downright crazy--he was in his prime.

I loved "Marked For Death", and it was a big improvement over "Hard To Kill". I think they realized they couldn't skate by on Aikido moves alone and started adding strikes and kicks to fill out his action sequences. In the past few years, his characters whip out all sorts of Kung-Fu that are nothing Steven would have skills in.

Jackie Chan is CRAZY!!!!

[verslibre]

As far as fight choreography, I remember Marked for Death being quite good--especially the sword fight at the end. I'm not sure that aikido really lends itself to long drawn-out fights though like the other styles. You really have to make it like a 4-on-1 to get a good scene. Not sure Seagal ever fought anyone that would provide a "real" challenge either on film, unlike some other martial artists (ie Jackie Chan, etc.)

I won't say I don't enjoy Seagal's earlier movies, but I don't watch them for martial arts choreography. To me they are crime-dramas, with elements of MA dribbled in to spice things up. Where do I tune in for the real deal. You said it:

Speaking of fight choreography, was watching the original Project A that Jackie did in the early 80s. With his recent output, it's easy to forget just how good--and downright crazy--he was in his prime.

Jackie's amazing. Some of my faves include that one, Armor Of God, Police Story, Drunken Master II, Wheels On Meals and Dragons Forever (those last two feature Benny "The Jet" Urquidez, and that dude's badass, too). The choreography is off the charts. And some of the moves are downright brutal. You can tell when that poor stuntman really took a chair to the face or a foot to the ribs. No "wire fu" in those movies, either. I like the fantasy MA stuff, a lot of which Jet Li did, but after wire fu became more prominent (even in Jackie's newer films), I'm not sure I enjoy it as much. I do love the first two Rush Hour movies. Unleashed and Fearless were excellent.

Jet Li movies have the best fighting choreography. Wo Ping is tops in this category. Bar none.

You mean Yuen Woo Ping, right? Well, he's worked with them all, hasn't he? You know who STILL doesn't seem to get mad props, at least with American audiences, is Donnie Yen. That guy's just as good as Jet, but you won't know it if you're not into HK cinema. Donnie recently finished a biopic about Yip Man, who instructed Bruce Lee. It's supposed to be nothing short of amazing.

Same for Mark Dacascos and Robin Shou. They can bring it, but they don't get the kind of screen time they used to. At least not on American screens.

How about the "new guy," Tony Jaa? Ong Bak and The Protector kicked ass! I'm waiting for Ong Bak 2 to be released over here ("edited" for American audiences, no doubt).

[verslibre]

Jet Li movies have the best fighting choreography. Wo Ping is tops in this category. Bar none.

I've heard "Fist of Legend" has about the best fight sequences ever seen in a martial arts movie. I finally bought a copy recently but haven't finished watching it. Was really pleased that this is a story companion to "Invincible", which I loved.

Yeah, FoL is way up there. It's a remake of Bruce Lee's Fist Of Fury, but it's not scene-for-scene plagiarism, either.