OT: VAN DAMMAGE!!! (YoungJRNY Alert)

[S2M]

As far as fight choreography, I remember Marked for Death being quite good--especially the sword fight at the end. I'm not sure that aikido really lends itself to long drawn-out fights though like the other styles. You really have to make it like a 4-on-1 to get a good scene. Not sure Seagal ever fought anyone that would provide a "real" challenge either on film, unlike some other martial artists (ie Jackie Chan, etc.)

I won't say I don't enjoy Seagal's earlier movies, but I don't watch them for martial arts choreography. To me they are crime-dramas, with elements of MA dribbled in to spice things up. Where do I tune in for the real deal. You said it:

Speaking of fight choreography, was watching the original Project A that Jackie did in the early 80s. With his recent output, it's easy to forget just how good--and downright crazy--he was in his prime.

Jackie's amazing. Some of my faves include that one, Armor Of God, Police Story, Drunken Master II, Wheels On Meals and Dragons Forever (those last two feature Benny "The Jet" Urquidez, and that dude's badass, too). The choreography is off the charts. And some of the moves are downright brutal. You can tell when that poor stuntman really took a chair to the face or a foot to the ribs. No "wire fu" in those movies, either. I like the fantasy MA stuff, a lot of which Jet Li did, but after wire fu became more prominent (even in Jackie's newer films), I'm not sure I enjoy it as much. I do love the first two Rush Hour movies. Unleashed and Fearless were excellent.

Jet Li movies have the best fighting choreography. Wo Ping is tops in this category. Bar none.

You mean Yuen Woo Ping, right? Well, he's worked with them all, hasn't he? You know who STILL doesn't seem to get mad props, at least with American audiences, is Donnie Yen. That guy's just as good as Jet, but you won't know it if you're not into HK cinema. Donnie recently finished a biopic about Yip Man, who instructed Bruce Lee. It's supposed to be nothing short of amazing.

Same for Mark Dacascos and Robin Shou. They can bring it, but they don't the kind of screen time they used to. At least not on American screens.

How about the "new guy," Tony Jaa? Ong Bak and The Protector kicked ass! I'm waiting for Ong Bak 2 to be released over here ("edited" for American audiences, no doubt).

Once upon a Time in China series is perhaps the best three martial arts films of all times.

[kgdjpubs]

As far as fight choreography, I remember Marked for Death being quite good--especially the sword fight at the end. I'm not sure that aikido really lends itself to long drawn-out fights though like the other styles. You really have to make it like a 4-on-1 to get a good scene. Not sure Seagal ever fought anyone that would provide a "real" challenge either on film, unlike some other martial artists (ie Jackie Chan, etc.)

I won't say I don't enjoy Seagal's earlier movies, but I don't watch them for martial arts choreography. To me they are crime-dramas, with elements of MA dribbled in to spice things up.

No disagreement there.

Speaking of fight choreography, was watching the original Project A that Jackie did in the early 80s. With his recent output, it's easy to forget just how good--and downright crazy--he was in his prime.

Jackie's amazing. Some of my faves include that one, Armor Of God, Police Story, Drunken Master II, Wheels On Meals and Dragons Forever (those last two feature Benny "The Jet" Urquidez, and that dude's badass, too). The choreography is off the charts. And some of the moves are downright brutal. You can tell when that poor stuntman really took a chair to the face or a foot to the ribs. No "wire fu" in those movies, either. I like the fantasy MA stuff, a lot of which Jet Li did, but after wire fu became more prominent (even in Jackie's newer films), I'm not sure I enjoy it as much. I do love the first two Rush Hour movies. Unleashed and Fearless were excellent.

The finale of Dragons Forever is simply manic, and the film might be my favorite of the Jackie/Sammo/Yuen combo films. I only wish I could find an uncut version of it in the US, along with a lot of his HK films. And as far as brutal...take a look at the outtakes for Police Story 2. As far as "ouch" outtakes go, I think that one wins.

Jet Li movies have the best fighting choreography. Wo Ping is tops in this category. Bar none.

You mean Yuen Woo Ping, right?

For what it's worth, I've seen it spelled both ways. At best, you are doing a phonetic translation of the Chinese characters.

Well, he's worked with them all, hasn't he? You know who STILL doesn't seem to get mad props, at least with American audiences, is Donnie Yen. That guy's just as good as Jet, but you won't know it if you're not into HK cinema. Donnie recently finished a biopic about Yip Man, who instructed Bruce Lee. It's supposed to be nothing short of amazing.

How about the "new guy," Tony Jaa? Ong Bak and The Protector kicked ass! I'm waiting for Ong Bak 2 to be released over here ("edited" for American audiences, no doubt).

Donnie's good, but as you said, doesn't get the exposure that Jackie and Jet Li get. Sad to say, Chow Yun Fat is better known as a martial artist than Donnie Yen. I think that says everything!

Tony Jaa is REALLY good, but so far, his films have suffered from some horrendous scripting, and have been saved simply by his stuntwork/fighting. If he gets a good script behind him, he could get some real recognition and maybe break out beyond the niche films he is currently doing.

[verslibre]

Speaking of fight choreography, was watching the original Project A that Jackie did in the early 80s. With his recent output, it's easy to forget just how good--and downright crazy--he was in his prime.

Jackie's amazing. Some of my faves include that one, Armor Of God, Police Story, Drunken Master II, Wheels On Meals and Dragons Forever (those last two feature Benny "The Jet" Urquidez, and that dude's badass, too). The choreography is off the charts. And some of the moves are downright brutal. You can tell when that poor stuntman really took a chair to the face or a foot to the ribs. No "wire fu" in those movies, either. I like the fantasy MA stuff, a lot of which Jet Li did, but after wire fu became more prominent (even in Jackie's newer films), I'm not sure I enjoy it as much. I do love the first two Rush Hour movies. Unleashed and Fearless were excellent.

The finale of Dragons Forever is simply manic, and the film might be my favorite of the Jackie/Sammo/Yuen combo films. I only wish I could find an uncut version of it in the US, along with a lot of his HK films. And as far as brutal...take a look at the outtakes for Police Story 2. As far as "ouch" outtakes go, I think that one wins.

I bought the S.E. DVD of Police Story at Circuit Shitty for $6 when they were going out of business. I need PS2. Funny, DF is cited by a few people I know as their favorite Jackie movie. Have you tried Tai Seng? They import directly from Hong Kong so they should have the un-fucked-with version. I hate how they fuck with stuff over here.

Btw, whatever happened to Yuen Biao? Haven't seen his name mentioned in ages now. Did he demote himself to Sammo's chauffeur or something?

Jet Li movies have the best fighting choreography. Wo Ping is tops in this category. Bar none.

You mean Yuen Woo Ping, right?

For what it's worth, I've seen it spelled both ways. At best, you are doing a phonetic translation of the Chinese characters.

It's just the way I've seen it spelled most often, but you're right, I'm sure it's spelled both ways. And were I getting his paychecks, I wouldn't mind, either.

Well, he's worked with them all, hasn't he? You know who STILL doesn't seem to get mad props, at least with American audiences, is Donnie Yen. That guy's just as good as Jet, but you won't know it if you're not into HK cinema. Donnie recently finished a biopic about Yip Man, who instructed Bruce Lee. It's supposed to be nothing short of amazing.

How about the "new guy," Tony Jaa? Ong Bak and The Protector kicked ass! I'm waiting for Ong Bak 2 to be released over here ("edited" for American audiences, no doubt).

Donnie's good, but as you said, doesn't get the exposure that Jackie and Jet Li get. Sad to say, Chow Yun Fat is better known as a martial artist than Donnie Yen. I think that says everything!

LOL! So true. But I love CT, HD. It was a wonder to see a movie like that here in a theater without having to drive hours to some film fest. I even kept tabs every week to see how much money it was making.

Tony Jaa is REALLY good, but so far, his films have suffered from some horrendous scripting, and have been saved simply by his stuntwork/fighting. If he gets a good script behind him, he could get some real recognition and maybe break out beyond the niche films he is currently doing.

What scripting?

Seriously, the storylines in his movies are skeletal with some splotches of muscle tissue and blood here and there, at best. I liked the story to Ong Bak better. With Jaa, it's all about the action. When you see this guy doing shit nobody else has done, even Jackie and Jet, you just don't care! The messed-up thing is that I have it on good authority that people do get hurt in his movies for the sake of "art," and Jaa's lied about that. Oh, well.

I'd love to see some kind of face-off between Jaa and Donnie. Jackie's older but his style is further modified to compensate for his age and thus looks good. New Police Story was a really good movie, and my (lower than usual) expectations were exceeded.

Just remembered another good one: Cynthia Rothrock's Yes, Madam! She kicked some bleepin' ass in that one.

[Carla777]

Jet Li movies have the best fighting choreography. Wo Ping is tops in this category. Bar none.

I've heard "Fist of Legend" has about the best fight sequences ever seen in a martial arts movie. I finally bought a copy recently but haven't finished watching it. Was really pleased that this is a story companion to "Invincible", which I loved.

Yeah, FoL is way up there. It's a remake of Bruce Lee's Fist Of Fury, but it's not scene-for-scene plagiarism, either.

that's cool..how i wish Bruce and his son Brandon were alive, i love his movies..he was so talented...and gorgeous !

[Rip Rokken]

Anyone remember Jeff Speakman? That dude seemed promising in "The Perfect Weapon". I always loved that film though it was cliched as they come and the acting and dialog was very stiff. I don't think I liked his next film "Street Knight" very much. Apparently he's still acting in films, but not sure if any of them are martial arts pics or not.

[texafana]

At a local pub, the on going joke is, you know things are going bad when you go out of your way to purchase a jcvd dvd.

[Carla777]

Anyone remember Jeff Speakman? That dude seemed promising in "The Perfect Weapon". I always loved that film though it was cliched as they come and the acting and dialog was very stiff. I don't think I liked his next film "Street Knight" very much. Apparently he's still acting in films, but not sure if any of them are martial arts pics or not.

heyy that movie is excellent!! (except for the silly song in the beggining) my ex meet Jeff when he came for some class here in Chile...he also was into martial arts, so we watch this kind of movies

[Red13JoePa]

Jean Claude can flat kick ass.

[Rip Rokken]

Anyone remember Jeff Speakman? That dude seemed promising in "The Perfect Weapon". I always loved that film though it was cliched as they come and the acting and dialog was very stiff. I don't think I liked his next film "Street Knight" very much. Apparently he's still acting in films, but not sure if any of them are martial arts pics or not.

heyy that movie is excellent!! (except for the silly song in the beggining) my ex meet Jeff when he came for some class here in Chile...he also was into martial arts, so we watch this kind of movies

That is so cool you'd even know who he was, and even more for knowing someone that met him. And you like Dokken too. Your ex must not have realized how special you were.

[Rip Rokken]

At a local pub, the on going joke is, you know things are going bad when you go out of your way to purchase a jcvd dvd.

Must not be that bad because I didn't go out of the way at all. I turned around, and there it was.

[YoungJRNY]

I know YoungJRNY has to be into some JCVD. I've always been a huge fan of Jean-Claude Van Damme, and started watching a few of his newer films a year or so ago -- some like "Wake Of Death", "In Hell" and "The Hard Corps" were surprisingly good and a lot more original, unlike most of the dreck Steven Seagal churns out (wasting his talent to crank out 6 or more films per year). In movies like "Wake Of Death" I was surprised at how good of an actor he really can be with the right part.

So anyway, I notice on Netflix a while back that he was putting out one called "JCVD" in which he plays himself in a very revealing performance, and added it to my queue. Didn't realize it was just released on video and picked it up at Best Buy last night, and it's really cool! Getting great reviews and comments from places like Time Magazine (said he deserved an Oscar), Variety, and the Boston Globe. The reader reviews on IMDB are excellent as well.

I'm not sure how much of his personal situation is based on fact, but I'm guessing it hits pretty close to home and it must be hard to show yourself that way and kind of bust open your own myth. An excellent performance with lots of emotion from JC.

Most of the film takes place in Belgium and is primarily in French w/English subtitles, but there is a dubbed English version on the disc as well. Here is the trailer, but it makes it look a lot more polished than it is. If you are a Van Damme fan, you just have to see it. I noticed you can watch it online on Netflix as well.

http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi359464985/

Hells yeah, good find RIP, will def. be checking this out. JCVD is one of those guys that you must respect regardless of what he puts out.. I get the same feel for Stallone. This is good stuff and I'm sure this will be another one marked in my collection.

[Rip Rokken]

Hells yeah, good find RIP, will def. be checking this out. JCVD is one of those guys that you must respect regardless of what he puts out.. I get the same feel for Stallone. This is good stuff and I'm sure this will be another one marked in my collection.

Hahahaha... he shows up just in time! Yes, Van Damme, Seagal, and especially Stallone. I think they all in comeback stage. Seagal is just a little late to the party, but he'll be along soon enough.

[verslibre]

Anyone remember Jeff Speakman? That dude seemed promising in "The Perfect Weapon". I always loved that film though it was cliched as they come and the acting and dialog was very stiff. I don't think I liked his next film "Street Knight" very much. Apparently he's still acting in films, but not sure if any of them are martial arts pics or not.

heyy that movie is excellent!! (except for the silly song in the beggining) my ex meet Jeff when he came for some class here in Chile...he also was into martial arts, so we watch this kind of movies

That is so cool you'd even know who he was, and even more for knowing someone that met him. And you like Dokken too. Your ex must not have realized how special you were.

This reminds me of the pic of the Brazilian (?) cutie holding up an ELP album in a record store. Like wow, her boyfriend's one lucky dude!!

[StoneCold]

Chuck Norris says Van Damm is gay.

Stevew2 agreed so it must be true.

gi gi gi dee gay gay gay

[kgdjpubs]

I bought the S.E. DVD of Police Story at Circuit Shitty for $6 when they were going out of business. I need PS2. Funny, DF is cited by a few people I know as their favorite Jackie movie. Have you tried Tai Seng? They import directly from Hong Kong so they should have the un-fucked-with version. I hate how they fuck with stuff over here.

Btw, whatever happened to Yuen Biao? Haven't seen his name mentioned in ages now. Did he demote himself to Sammo's chauffeur or something?

I'm hoping Dragon Dynasty will release it. They have the 1st 3 PS films out uncut, and with any luck, will release the uncut PS4, along with the magnificent--if drastically different for Jackie--Crime Story. PS2 is good, but probably the worst of the PS series (not counting the New Police Story reboot). It has more to do with how good 1, 3 and 4 are though than the any real problem with the film.

on Dragons Forever...I'm hoping somebody OTHER than Tai Seng will release it. Never been really impressed by their dvds for some reason. Hong Kong Legends has been putting some good stuff out in the UK, and they have it, so I might have to get that one. Getting a dvd player crack isn't that hard...

Dunno what happened to Yuen Biao. I know he made a cameo in Jackie's Robin-B-Hood. I have almost given up hope of a Jackie/Sammo/Yuen reunion. The three of them together are just magical, and Dragons Forever is probably the best movie to capture that.

What scripting?

Seriously, the storylines in his movies are skeletal with some splotches of muscle tissue and blood here and there, at best. I liked the story to Ong Bak better. With Jaa, it's all about the action. When you see this guy doing shit nobody else has done, even Jackie and Jet, you just don't care! The messed-up thing is that I have it on good authority that people do get hurt in his movies for the sake of "art," and Jaa's lied about that. Oh, well.

Well...people got hurt on Jackie's films also. You can't do that type of stuff that Jackie and Tony Jaa do without somebody getting hurt. Things go wrong, no matter how much you try to make things safe. I know in Jackie's book that he said that the HK stuntmen trusted their training to not get killed when doing the stunts. That's what made Hong Kong cinema so refreshing from the US stuff which is green-screened and cut to death. That is, unless you are talking about injuries of a much more serious nature...??

Tony Jaa has the talent and charisma to carry the torch forward. We shall see what happens.

I'd love to see some kind of face-off between Jaa and Donnie. Jackie's older but his style is further modified to compensate for his age and thus looks good. New Police Story was a really good movie, and my (lower than usual) expectations were exceeded.

Just remembered another good one: Cynthia Rothrock's Yes, Madam! She kicked some bleepin' ass in that one.

New Police Story had it's moments...but I tend to prefer the Jackie character of old as opposed to the overly dramatic direction he has taken recently. I still think the criminally underrated Who Am I? was his last great movie, though Shanghai Noon was close, if a different tone.

Don't think I ever saw Yes, Madam! All this reminds me of a dvd of Sammo's Pedicab Driver that I found a few months ago, and I can't remember whether I ever got a chance to watch it. Need to check it out soon...

[Vladan]

on Dragons Forever...I'm hoping somebody OTHER than Tai Seng will release it. Never been really impressed by their dvds for some reason. Hong Kong Legends has been putting some good stuff out in the UK, and they have it, so I might have to get that one. Getting a dvd player crack isn't that hard...

As yes good question. I picked up the Hong Kong Legends version some years ago, seems to be the best print of Dragons Forever out there (compared to all the other prints I have, it's the best), lots of extras, but the picture is actually clear, subtitles are decent and readable, and they didn't re-dub the English soundtrack, like they did with Wheels On Meals and ruin it.

Best martial arts choreographer, in his day, Sammo Hung is up there, I can tell you why as well if anyone is interested. That is also If I could be bothered. But coming from a martial arts background myself, and having worked on several projects, I do understand from experience what it takes, and what it doesn't! Also I have been serious kung fu movie collector, since the early 90's, but that's another thread.

Most westerners today will say Yuen Woo-ping and co are the best, due to the fact they have been more mainstream these days seen on our big screens (The Matrix, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, The Forbidden Kingdom, and so on). They won't give you any real technical knowledge, other than it's a preference thing. But in his day, there was no better than Sammo Hung, there really wasn't. Sammo style is very different to most, and I think Tony Jaa and his team today are pretty close. The thing what makes Sammo stand out is the fact that many years ago, Sammo fight choreography wasn't all show, most of it was real contact, people got knocked for real, and they kept shooting. Take "Wheels On Meals" for instance, probably one of the best still, if not the best directed fight scenes to date (Jackie Chan vs Benny Urquidez) most of that fight was real contact, and that's why it's so good, but also what makes a good fight scene is not only the contact, but its the camera work, closeup shots, and also the editing as well, the timing of the editing plays a major factor, and Jackie, Sammo, also Woo Ping and likes of Lau Kar Leung invented it as they went along, as there was a lot of trial and error, but those guys are the pioneers. People will argue till the cows come home on who was the best, I have my opinion, people have there's.

Personally I like them all, although the reason Woo Ping probably gets more work today is because his team is one of the best in the business, but also a very good resume and reputation, after all these guys invented all the tricks you see, as they are all very safe at what they do, it's not the old days, where stunties literally would die on set, they would cover it up, and keep shooting (example: Jackie Chan's Police Story) at the start, guy falls out of the bus windows, guy falls on neck, it doesn't end well, they keep shooting. But type of stuff happened all the time, as these days it doesn't or you just don't hear about it as much. Personally I think fight scenes are worse now these days due to all the safety, but you can thank the likes of Tony Jaa, bringing the old school craziness back on the big screen. No Wires, No Stunt Man, And less safety always looks good.

Here a few best fight scenes ever directed, as there are many more out there, feel free to ad to the great list!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXVp9938Uq4 Jackie Chan VS Benny Urquidez in Wheels On Meals (Choreographed by Sammo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiIGGqC0Lv8 Sammo Hung VS Lau Kar Leung in the Pedicab Driver (Choreographed by Sammo & Lau Kar Leung?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEeHNHcogXY - Jackie Chan VS Thugs in Drunken Master 2 (This movie started out as a Lau Kar Leung choreography, but Chan didn't like the style, and and fired him or something, then directed the action himself)

Ok - now check out of Yuen Woo Pings earlier action scene with Donnie Yen (IMO very cheesy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZGZUL_gruM Donnie Yen vs Michael Wood in tiger Cage 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFU0E4gtDuU Donnie Yen vs Michael Woods in In The Line of Duty 4

[kgdjpubs]

on Dragons Forever...I'm hoping somebody OTHER than Tai Seng will release it. Never been really impressed by their dvds for some reason. Hong Kong Legends has been putting some good stuff out in the UK, and they have it, so I might have to get that one. Getting a dvd player crack isn't that hard...

As yes good question. I picked up the Hong Kong Legends version some years ago, seems to be the best print of Dragons Forever out there (compared to all the other prints I have, it's the best), lots of extras, but the picture is actually clear, subtitles are decent and readable, and they didn't re-dub the English soundtrack, like they did with Wheels On Meals and ruin it.

Since you have the HKL version, maybe you can answer this....does it have the outtakes on it? I know they exist, but for some reason, they got left off 98% of the versions out there.

Best martial arts choreographer, in his day, Sammo Hung is up there, I can tell you why as well if anyone is interested. That is also If I could be bothered. But coming from a martial arts background myself, and having worked on several projects, I do understand from experience what it takes, and what it doesn't! Also I have been serious kung fu movie collector, since the early 90's, but that's another thread.

Most westerners today will say Yuen Woo-ping and co are the best, due to the fact they have been more mainstream these days seen on our big screens (The Matrix, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, The Forbidden Kingdom, and so on). They won't give you any real technical knowledge, other than it's a preference thing. But in his day, there was no better than Sammo Hung, there really wasn't. Sammo style is very different to most, and I think Tony Jaa and his team today are pretty close. The thing what makes Sammo stand out is the fact that many years ago, Sammo fight choreography wasn't all show, most of it was real contact, people got knocked for real, and they kept shooting. Take "Wheels On Meals" for instance, probably one of the best still, if not the best directed fight scenes to date (Jackie Chan vs Benny Urquidez) most of that fight was real contact, and that's why it's so good, but also what makes a good fight scene is not only the contact, but its the camera work, closeup shots, and also the editing as well, the timing of the editing plays a major factor, and Jackie, Sammo, also Woo Ping and likes of Lau Kar Leung invented it as they went along, as there was a lot of trial and error, but those guys are the pioneers. People will argue till the cows come home on who was the best, I have my opinion, people have there's.

Personally I like them all, although the reason Woo Ping probably gets more work today is because his team is one of the best in the business, but also a very good resume and reputation, after all these guys invented all the tricks you see, as they are all very safe at what they do, it's not the old days, where stunties literally would die on set, they would cover it up, and keep shooting (example: Jackie Chan's Police Story) at the start, guy falls out of the bus windows, guy falls on neck, it doesn't end well, they keep shooting. But type of stuff happened all the time, as these days it doesn't or you just don't hear about it as much. Personally I think fight scenes are worse now these days due to all the safety, but you can thank the likes of Tony Jaa, bringing the old school craziness back on the big screen. No Wires, No Stunt Man, And less safety always looks good.

I agree with you on this one. Yuen Woo Ping has worked on several high-profile films in the US, while Sammo is still somewhat underground. Hard to tell what Sammo could do in the US with the regulations and stuff. I still think he could give Yuen Woo Ping a run for his money. Hard to go wrong with either of them though. Yuen is slightly more flamboyant with some wires and stuff. Sammo is more hardcore intense fighting. Just depends on your preference.

For anybody who is unconvinced of Sammo's fight choreography, just watch one of Jackie's movies without Sammo and then something like Wheels on Meals/Dragons Forever back to back. Sammo Hung will give you a very good fight scene; Jackie will give you a good fight scene with props--but probably less intense and more comedic. Different styles, but Jackie seldom looked as good fighting as when Sammo was doing the fight sequences. Some of that probably comes from Sammo knowing EXACTLY how far he could push Jackie, as he knew what Jackie was and wasn't able to do.

I was under the impression that the Benny Urquidez vs. Jackie fight was "real" more for the fact that Benny wasn't used to fighting in movies, and kept hitting Jackie. My favorite of the two might be the rematch in Dragons Forever by a slight margin, but the extinguishing candle scene in Wheels on Meals is hard to beat, and Wheels is longer. Close call, either way.

Here a few best fight scenes ever directed, as there are many more out there, feel free to ad to the great list!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEeHNHcogXY - Jackie Chan VS Thugs in Drunken Master 2 (This movie started out as a Lau Kar Leung choreography, but Chan didn't like the style, and and fired him or something, then directed the action himself)

I was under the impression that Lau Kar Leung directed the action for everything except the final factory fight?????



as far as the Dragons Forever fight scene that everybody else is wondering about...

part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khWcczhXgKQ
mainly Yuen Biao, with a little Jackie and Benny Urquidez makes an appearance at the end. The window scene with Yuen Biao is simply breathtaking.

part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYTvpcP2 ... re=related
Jackie vs. Benny Urquidez rematch, with Yuen Wah interfering and a bit of a drugged Sammo.

[Vladan]

on Dragons Forever...I'm hoping somebody OTHER than Tai Seng will release it. Never been really impressed by their dvds for some reason. Hong Kong Legends has been putting some good stuff out in the UK, and they have it, so I might have to get that one. Getting a dvd player crack isn't that hard...

As yes good question. I picked up the Hong Kong Legends version some years ago, seems to be the best print of Dragons Forever out there (compared to all the other prints I have, it's the best), lots of extras, but the picture is actually clear, subtitles are decent and readable, and they didn't re-dub the English soundtrack, like they did with Wheels On Meals and ruin it.

Since you have the HKL version, maybe you can answer this....does it have the outtakes on it? I know they exist, but for some reason, they got left off 98% of the versions out there.

Best martial arts choreographer, in his day, Sammo Hung is up there, I can tell you why as well if anyone is interested. That is also If I could be bothered. But coming from a martial arts background myself, and having worked on several projects, I do understand from experience what it takes, and what it doesn't! Also I have been serious kung fu movie collector, since the early 90's, but that's another thread.

Most westerners today will say Yuen Woo-ping and co are the best, due to the fact they have been more mainstream these days seen on our big screens (The Matrix, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, The Forbidden Kingdom, and so on). They won't give you any real technical knowledge, other than it's a preference thing. But in his day, there was no better than Sammo Hung, there really wasn't. Sammo style is very different to most, and I think Tony Jaa and his team today are pretty close. The thing what makes Sammo stand out is the fact that many years ago, Sammo fight choreography wasn't all show, most of it was real contact, people got knocked for real, and they kept shooting. Take "Wheels On Meals" for instance, probably one of the best still, if not the best directed fight scenes to date (Jackie Chan vs Benny Urquidez) most of that fight was real contact, and that's why it's so good, but also what makes a good fight scene is not only the contact, but its the camera work, closeup shots, and also the editing as well, the timing of the editing plays a major factor, and Jackie, Sammo, also Woo Ping and likes of Lau Kar Leung invented it as they went along, as there was a lot of trial and error, but those guys are the pioneers. People will argue till the cows come home on who was the best, I have my opinion, people have there's.

Personally I like them all, although the reason Woo Ping probably gets more work today is because his team is one of the best in the business, but also a very good resume and reputation, after all these guys invented all the tricks you see, as they are all very safe at what they do, it's not the old days, where stunties literally would die on set, they would cover it up, and keep shooting (example: Jackie Chan's Police Story) at the start, guy falls out of the bus windows, guy falls on neck, it doesn't end well, they keep shooting. But type of stuff happened all the time, as these days it doesn't or you just don't hear about it as much. Personally I think fight scenes are worse now these days due to all the safety, but you can thank the likes of Tony Jaa, bringing the old school craziness back on the big screen. No Wires, No Stunt Man, And less safety always looks good.

I agree with you on this one. Yuen Woo Ping has worked on several high-profile films in the US, while Sammo is still somewhat underground. Hard to tell what Sammo could do in the US with the regulations and stuff. I still think he could give Yuen Woo Ping a run for his money. Hard to go wrong with either of them though. Yuen is slightly more flamboyant with some wires and stuff. Sammo is more hardcore intense fighting. Just depends on your preference.

For anybody who is unconvinced of Sammo's fight choreography, just watch one of Jackie's movies without Sammo and then something like Wheels on Meals/Dragons Forever back to back. Sammo Hung will give you a very good fight scene; Jackie will give you a good fight scene with props--but probably less intense and more comedic. Different styles, but Jackie seldom looked as good fighting as when Sammo was doing the fight sequences. Some of that probably comes from Sammo knowing EXACTLY how far he could push Jackie, as he knew what Jackie was and wasn't able to do.

I was under the impression that the Benny Urquidez vs. Jackie fight was "real" more for the fact that Benny wasn't used to fighting in movies, and kept hitting Jackie. My favorite of the two might be the rematch in Dragons Forever by a slight margin, but the extinguishing candle scene in Wheels on Meals is hard to beat, and Wheels is longer. Close call, either way.

Here a few best fight scenes ever directed, as there are many more out there, feel free to ad to the great list!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEeHNHcogXY - Jackie Chan VS Thugs in Drunken Master 2 (This movie started out as a Lau Kar Leung choreography, but Chan didn't like the style, and and fired him or something, then directed the action himself)

I was under the impression that Lau Kar Leung directed the action for everything except the final factory fight?????



as far as the Dragons Forever fight scene that everybody else is wondering about...

part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khWcczhXgKQ
mainly Yuen Biao, with a little Jackie and Benny Urquidez makes an appearance at the end. The window scene with Yuen Biao is simply breathtaking.

part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYTvpcP2 ... re=related
Jackie vs. Benny Urquidez rematch, with Yuen Wah interfering and a bit of a drugged Sammo.

Totally dude, spot on mate, I agree with that you said, I reckon if you really know your stuff, which it looks like you do (you'd agree with me!) and about Benny and Jackie in Wheels, yeah you are probably right, it's been so long as I can't exactly remember, but I know the "slow motion" part at the end fight, where Benny is backed into a corner, and Jackie is laying into him (that was all out, no holding back) Jackie clocked Benny a good one in the jaw, as they both agreed to just make it look real as possible.

But with regards to HKL Dragons Forever, that is a good question! really good question. I will have to take a look and get back to you on this one.

Nice videos as well. As a personal preference, Yuen Biao is my favourite kicker from the 80's, he is a very under rated kicker. Great balance, air time, technique, and a unique style.