OT: Star Trek

[Monker]

I'll throw out there is it's humorous that people actually think of BSG as 'anti-trek'

It totally is.

The main premises of Trek:

1. Technology will save us and create almost a future utopia.

2. Alien life exists everywhere in the damn galaxy - even though 99% of the time they look just like humans with bumpy foreheads or point ears.

3. God does not exist or is never even referred to outside of TOS and plays no part in the destiny of, well, anything.

ST was Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future. Technology advances and in fact some of TOS tech has been seen in our lifetime.

TNG explained why alien life looks similar in the Trek universe...but, I guess you were not paying attention.

Religion and religious politics played a major role on DS9....which is probably why it played such a part in BSG, since Ron Moore was a writer on DS9.

The main premises of BSG:

1. Technology will only make our problems worse.

2. There is no life in the galaxy except for animals, humans - and the stuff they make.

3. God not only exists, but so do angels and they are constantly "guiding" humanity towards a destiny and forcing people to make choices.

BSG was created by Glen A. Larson who used Erich von Däniken's "Chariots of the Gods" as a major influence. So, while there may only be humanity "out there"...there is still SOMETHING out there. The entire intro to BSG:TOS is almost Trek like, "There are those who believe that life here began out there..." This theme was carried from TOS by Ron Moore in his version of the show. It is not as different as you seem to think.

Tech is not futuristic as it is in Trek...it is modern. It is a difference in looking at the world...being futuristic and being modern. That does not make it anti-Trek...just a different concept.

Again, the God thing was written by Ron Moore on DS9. The concept was influenced from Trek....not anti-Trek.

Those two series (and I am speaking mainly of Trek from Next Gen on...) are about as opposite in viewpoint as the Shadows and the Vorlons. If you are uncomfortable with the idea of God as an idea and simply are scared witless by any philosophizing about the nature of God and the universe OR your are a religious fundamental with very strict viewpoints on how YOU think God should be then obviously the very nature of the show may make you uncomfortable. But that doesn't mean it's not brilliant.

I'm not uncomfortible with this discussion at all.

What Ron Moore did was not 'brilliant', or unique, or anti-Trek. he simply took his experience on DS9 and updated BSG. Nothing more...and the only way he could keep his audience captivated and his show in the spotlight, was to throw some shocking scene in every episode.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Also - earlier it was mentioned about the "Opera House" vision as showing how the writers were inept. I posted about this on the BSG forums very early. The Opera House was obviously Galactica, there was no other choice. It's a metaphor for the entire show. From the beginning Moore stated that his show was "basically an opera with the ship as the stage for the performance". The vision was only there as a metaphor for the art that was being created and it was more of a nod from the artist to the audience than it was specific in meaning to the plot itself. I don't know why everyone was so surprised when the ship ended up being the Opera House.

I could go on and on here.

Not buying it.
And the fact that Moore himself admitted he didn't know who the final five would be, tells me you shouldn't either.
Many fans speculated that the episodes were being slapped together largely ad-hoc, but kept the faith because of the good will Moore had built up over the years (DS9, GvsE etc).
Of course, the finale put the lie to that idea.
None of it added up in a sastisfactory way.
All the time spent on Gaius's Number 6 visions only to find out they are angels?
More than likely, Moore just wrote it because it sounded cool at the time, and ended up writing himself into a box.
As it stands, BG would've been better off getting canceled, and letting fans wonder what epic resolutions the writers had in store.
Babylon 5 this wasn't.
The final season collapsed under the weight of it's own lofty multi-arc ideas.


On an unrelated noted, this is the 4th or 5th franchise property scifi has driven into the ground...
Sliders got canned to shore up more money for Farscape (despite ratings staying strong without Jerry O'Connell), Farscape got canned to shore up money for BG (among concerns that it was becoming too impenetrable to the casual viewer), and now BG ends with ratings just as low, if not lower, than either of those two series, as well as a mythology virtually unwatchable to anyone who doesn't own a vintage Dirk Benedict shirtless pinup.
Horrible mismanagement of great properties all around.

[Zedul]

Noble, Monker - of course neither of you are buying it.

You remind me of two old queen bee's nitpicking and nagging about the pretty young girl who just walked into the room and got all the attention.

"Oh god, she's not THAT pretty"

"Look her nose is crooked!"

"I bet those boobs are fake!"

I see that crap all the time in my line of work and it's easily recognizable.

Your arguments are weak sauce. You are straining for things to pick apart and making connections that aren't there.

If you watch Gaius's number 6 visions again, she tells you several times in season ONE and season TWO she is an angel sent by God to see humanity to it's end. The entire time she is pretty much always telling the truth and when she isn't you can obviously see she is just leading him along and frakking with his head to get him to do what she wants.

As for not deciding who the final 5 were until halfway through the series?

Dumas didn't decide if Edmond was going to end up with Mercedes or Haidee until the end of Le Comte De Monte Christo.
Dickens didn't decide that Magwich was Estella's father until over halfway through Great Expectations.
JMS did not decide to make Sinclair Valen until Season 3 of B5

I could go on and on here. Creative decisions are often made at the last minute in all literature, movies, and yes... television!

Making adjustments to your story as you are writing is part of the organic process of telling tale. Criticizing someone for being an artist and a master of their craft and making creative decisions mid story and keeping the tension up during a dramatic TV show is your prerogative but again it sounds like the clucking of two old hens. Sour grapes in the face of astounding success.

The fact is that THEY pulled it off and millions of people all over the world got it. Not even half a year has passed since the final and already it's being hailed as the benchmark Sci-Fi series of the last decade if not all time.

B5 may always be my favorite just for sentimental reasons... but the last season was hard to take. BSG had one of the great last seasons and finals I have ever seen.

DS9 was sloppy crap... but then so was Murder She Wrote, and I won't hold either series against Moore or Strazynski - they were just staff writers on those after all.

Finally. BSG drew huge numbers the last season for Sci-Fi, especially the final... it actually scored higher than many network TV shows and was Cables #1 rated prime time show several times this past year. It averaged between 500k and 1 million viewers more per episode than Farscape, and that's not even including the DVR ratings, rentals or DVD sales. Or that fact that a large percentage of viewers watch the episodes online.

[verslibre]

Sliders got canned to shore up more money for Farscape (despite ratings staying strong without Jerry O'Connell), Farscape got canned to shore up money for BG (among concerns that it was becoming too impenetrable to the casual viewer), and now BG ends with ratings just as low, if not lower, than either of those two series

Source?

[S2M]

TOS aside(cause lord knows anything that is the 'first' of ANYTHING is relgated as the BEST... ), TNG will never be beat as a series.

[bluejeangirl76]

TOS aside(cause lord knows anything that is the 'first' of ANYTHING is relgated as the BEST... ), TNG will never be beat as a series.

*yawn* at the original. Except the one with the Tribbles.

TNG is the only one I like. Never even saw any of the ones that came after.

[verslibre]

*yawn* at the original. Except the one with the Tribbles.

C'mon, you gotta like "The Arena." The one where the Scary Lizard Man is chasing Kirk around Death Valley.

[S2M]

*yawn* at the original. Except the one with the Tribbles.

C'mon, you gotta like "The Arena." The one where the Scary Lizard Man is chasing Kirk around Death Valley.

What's the matter, jimmy boy?!

[The_Noble_Cause]

Noble, Monker - of course neither of you are buying it.

You remind me of two old queen bee's nitpicking and nagging about the pretty young girl who just walked into the room and got all the attention.

"Oh god, she's not THAT pretty"

"Look her nose is crooked!"

"I bet those boobs are fake!"

I see that crap all the time in my line of work and it's easily recognizable.

Your arguments are weak sauce. You are straining for things to pick apart and making connections that aren't there.

I don't think so.
Many fans have said the same thing upon the series conclusion.
The majority of the final four episodes were filler, and even the final two were comprised of flashbacks of Adama puking on himself or Roslin fucking a former student.
In the making-of documentary, Moore even admitted that he was in a bind writing the conclusion and ultimately wrote in big letters on the writing room dryboard, "It's about the characters!"
If there was ample story to tell, time wouldn't have been wasted on such personal crap which had already been exhausted and then some.

As for not deciding who the final 5 were until halfway through the series?

Dumas didn't decide if Edmond was going to end up with Mercedes or Haidee until the end of Le Comte De Monte Christo.
Dickens didn't decide that Magwich was Estella's father until over halfway through Great Expectations.

The final five were a central arc to the series, not just an aside.
Moore's admission of it being an afterthought just proves he was yanking viewers around.
Having Saul's wife be the final cylon was indicative of the entire show.
Another "wouldn't it be cool if" idea with very little substantive payoff.
The finale was a 2-hour exercise in creative backfilling, not that far removed from Lucas's own Star Wars prequels.
The master plan amounted to little more than Moore going back and trying to find ways to connect his own dots.

JMS did not decide to make Sinclair Valen until Season 3 of B5

I am under the impression that Sinclair's arc actually remained the same, it was just moved up.
The actor wanted to leave (or the syndicator wanted him out, depending on who you believe) and JMS tweaked things accordingly.
Didn't change the larger arc involving The Shadows much, if at all.

I could go on and on here. Creative decisions are often made at the last minute in all literature, movies, and yes... television!

Making adjustments to your story as you are writing is part of the organic process of telling tale. Criticizing someone for being an artist and a master of their craft and making creative decisions mid story and keeping the tension up during a dramatic TV show is your prerogative but again it sounds like the clucking of two old hens. Sour grapes in the face of astounding success.

BG was not a typical self-contained episodic show.
It was arc intensive and it's use of dreams and visions seemed to bode for bigger things down the road.
In my opinion, it did not come together.
It imploded.

The fact is that THEY pulled it off and millions of people all over the world got it. Not even half a year has passed since the final and already it's being hailed as the benchmark Sci-Fi series of the last decade if not all time.

Who cares?
When you have disposable tabloid rags like "Entertainment Weekly" hailing its genius, that's not a good thing.
More often than not, future cult scifi TV classics get overlooked by the mainstream press.
It's accolades notwithstanding, this last season was a mess.
Anders' rambling exposition to the Final Five was some of the worst TV writing I've witnessed and, worse still, broke the cardinal rule of entertainment (show don't tell).
You could almost see the writers' mental arithmetic, exasperatingly trying to fill in narative potholes they created for themselves along the way.

BSG had one of the great last seasons and finals I have ever seen.

Ok, and I thought the finale was shit.
What of it?

Finally. BSG drew huge numbers the last season for Sci-Fi,

Hardly.
It was hemoraging viewers like mad.
By the time of its final two seasons it was pulling in Nielsen numbers like 1.3 and 1.4, down from 3.0.
Like I said before, these are the same numbers that earned other scifi shows a pink slip.

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/List_ ... tings_(RDM)

especially the final... it actually scored higher than many network TV shows and was Cables #1 rated prime time show several times this past year.

2.4 for the final was decent, after the channel promo-ed the hell out of it.
As for the season in general, viewership was down.
This was scifi's flagship show.
The miniseries and promos were even screened on network TV (NBC) to help give it a ratings boost.
It died with a whimper.
The same rationales the channel employed to cancel other series ("the mythology is too dense!", "low ratings!") had now become true of BG.

and that's not even including the DVR ratings, rentals or DVD sales. Or that fact that a large percentage of viewers watch the episodes online.

I'm not denying that.

[Sarah]

Furthermore... I took my wife to Trek today and the first thing she said as we left the theater was "Wow it looked and felt like BSG with a little bit of Babylon 5 and not like Star Trek at all...."

Well that's probably because you and your wife are clearly huge BSG fans. My guess is most people compared this new "pew pew pew explosion" Trek to Star Wars, the only two real heavyweights in general public sci-fi. In fact, the headline story on Boxofficemojo after opening weekend called it a "Star Wars-like treatment".

[Zedul]

A 2.4 rating is godly for a show that airs at 11pm on a Friday night.

As for the rest.

It came together, it rocked, it kicked the living shit out of most other Sci-Fi every aired - people I know that are normally not even Sci-Fi fans loved this show.

It's more than just "EW" - it's been quite a bit of writers, critics, and the millions of DVD sales over the years will just cement it.

The BSG haters will always lose!

[The_Noble_Cause]

A 2.4 rating is godly for a show that airs at 11pm on a Friday night.

As for the rest.

It came together, it rocked, it kicked the living shit out of most other Sci-Fi every aired - people I know that are normally not even Sci-Fi fans loved this show.

2.4 was only for the final episode - which was preceeded by a heavy promotional blitz.
The rest of the season (which aired in primetime at 10, not 11) got around a 1.3 or 1.2
The same shit ratings that sent Scifi's other series (Sliders, Invisible Man, Farscape et al) right off the air.
Like an intergalactic robot set to kill, you seem to have a problem with dissenting opinions.

It's more than just "EW" - it's been quite a bit of writers, critics, and the millions of DVD sales over the years will just cement it.

Never said it was just EW.
I specifically mentioned "accolades", that includes winning the prestigious peabody award.
In my opinion, the academy or whoever, should ask for it back.

[SF-Dano]

Sometimes I get the feeling that some here base their opinions of a shows/music/movies quality on what they personally wanted the writers/performers/musicians to do. And just because it is not what they wanted/expected, they lable it as shit. You can like or dislike something, but that does not necessarily make it shit.

I dug BSG. The last season and finale did not go exactly as I expected or hoped for, but it was still a superior show. Well written overall, strong characters, and yes the shock factor was ever present, but entertaining as hell to me anyway.

[Monker]

Sliders got canned to shore up more money for Farscape (despite ratings staying strong without Jerry O'Connell)

I was a huge fan of Sliders....but, it was due to be canceled. The final season really had no point any longer. The writing strayed too far from it's original idea and really had no where to go. In fact, the last two seasons were almost painful to watch, knowing what it once was and how well the original cast meshed.

Farscape got canned to shore up money for BG (among concerns that it was becoming too impenetrable to the casual viewer)

I don't know how true that is...But, the bottom line is they promoted it as their flagship show...the fifth, and final I believe, season was planned and then they canceled it. It really made no sense. They kept messing with it's schedule, and then put it on opposite Monk, one of the most popular cable shows at that time...so of course the ratings dipped a bit. After it was canceled, EVERYTHING on scifi was Stargate this and that...and goofy reality shows. At the time, I thought they were just heavily vested in Stargate. Anyway, it was a huge mistake.

and now BG ends with ratings just as low, if not lower, than either of those two series, as well as a mythology virtually unwatchable to anyone who doesn't own a vintage Dirk Benedict shirtless pinup.

EXACTLY...I can't see this thing going in reruns...There are only a handful of shows from the first season that I would not mind watching again.

[Monker]

Your arguments are weak sauce. You are straining for things to pick apart and making connections that aren't there.

Oh, please. YOU are the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. Moore worked for years on ALL the TNG series, and yet BSG is "anti-Trek". He stole ideas from Trek and brought them to BSG. DS9 was to be a 'darker' version of TNG...but it was never dark enough for him and others. No 'God' in Trek? Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

The fact is that THEY pulled it off and millions of people all over the world got it. Not even half a year has passed since the final and already it's being hailed as the benchmark Sci-Fi series of the last decade if not all time.

I don't care what professional critics say. A benchmark? Nah. Millions watch "Who shot JR?" but that doesn't mean it is a benchmark of anything except how to get ratings.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I was a huge fan of Sliders....but, it was due to be canceled. The final season really had no point any longer. The writing strayed too far from it's original idea and really had no where to go. In fact, the last two seasons were almost painful to watch, knowing what it once was and how well the original cast meshed.

I'm not disagreeing with any of this.
However, the network cited low ratings for the cancellation.
This was false.
It remained very competetive in the lineup even after O'Connell bailed.
Truthfully, the show was fucked after Scifi bought it.
They had the option to bring back the original writer/creator (Tracey Torme from ST:TNG).
Instead, they opted to stick with the FOX hack who killed off John Rhys Davies and turned it into a movie-ripoff-of-the-week.
A few writers (Marc Scott Zicree, Keith Damron) wrote some standout eps, but on the whole, the magic was gone.

But, the bottom line is they promoted it as their flagship show...the fifth, and final I believe, season was planned and then they canceled it. It really made no sense. They kept messing with it's schedule, and then put it on opposite Monk, one of the most popular cable shows at that time...so of course the ratings dipped a bit. After it was canceled, EVERYTHING on scifi was Stargate this and that...and goofy reality shows. At the time, I thought they were just heavily vested in Stargate. Anyway, it was a huge mistake.

Yup.
Alot like Journey and lead singers, the Scifi channel is strongly in a show's corner until they find a reason to wriggle out of it.
At different points, both Farscape and Sliders (and others) were treated as the network's shining crown jewels - only to be abruptly cancelled and followed by some pro-forma PR statement that critized the very show they once stood behind.
To the channel's credit, they gave BG an honorable finish.

[Zedul]

Moore worked for years on ALL the TNG series, and yet BSG is "anti-Trek". He stole ideas from Trek and brought them to BSG. DS9 was to be a 'darker' version of TNG...but it was never dark enough for him and others. No 'God' in Trek? Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!


DS9 was a ripoff of B5 - JMS pitched that original story to the Trek guys as a premise and Berman rejected him... sent him out the door and then stole him blind. It was one of the cheap pieces of shit that Berman always pulled in his little Trek empire. It's one of the reasons why Mrs. Rodenberry would no longer do the voice of the computer on Trek and instead showed up as a guest star on B5.

Ron Moore was involved with the latter half run of Next Gen, and DS9 - and touched only 2 episodes of Voyager which he hated and was long gone before Enterprise arrived. Suffice to say that he was part of the very best of those Trek years - and without him as a staff writer Trek completely went to shit.

I mean really? How good was Next Gen in it's 2 seasons before Moore arrived? And how good was Voyager and Enterprise the series they did after Moore left?

Are you shitting me... how can a writer STEAL HIS OWN IDEAS?

It's like saying "Neal Schon and John Cain stole from Journey when they formed Bad English". Crap - of course the songs are going to sound similar, that's how they fucking write!!!

Your tank is empty.

I'm moving on.

In any case. BSG is over, it had it's run and finished well.

I am just crossing my fingers for "Chuck" to do the same.

[Monker]

It's like saying "Neal Schon and John Cain stole from Journey when they formed Bad English". Crap - of course the songs are going to sound similar, that's how they fucking write!!!

What YOU are saying, and what I am arguing with, is that BSG is 'anti-Trek'. It's like saying BE is anti-Journey...even tho they have the same writers writing the same style of music from Journey.

You have proven my point for me...all but admitting you were wrong.

Your tank is empty.

And, you were running on air from the start of this...not knowing what you were talking about.

[verslibre]

You guys play nice in the sandbox!!!


Looks like Sci Fi is airing Serenity tonight at 9PM. Any good? Maybe I'll tune in. I'm no fan of Joss Whedon, but Summer Glau is in it. She is hawt.

[Zedul]

What YOU are saying, and what I am arguing with, is that BSG is 'anti-Trek'. It's like saying BE is anti-Journey...even tho they have the same writers writing the same style of music from Journey.

You have proven my point for me...all but admitting you were wrong.

And, you were running on air from the start of this...not knowing what you were talking about.

That's not the point I was making an you know it. Stop taking something out of one context and putting into another. Someone's style of telling a story is not the same as a premise of the story itself. The premise of BSG is anti-trek and I already explained why. Remember? No aliens? Technology = bad? And the idea of "God" instead of wormhole space butterflies or whatever those DS9 things were.

This thing has won Emmy's, Saturn's, Hugo's, Peabody awards and many others. It's a top 20 all time best selling TV series on DVD on several charts - it's been lauded and applauded by every television critic from here to the other side of the world and has a rabid following of fans.

But you are going to stand around all day and whine about it because it went right the hell over your head!!!

And you tell me "I don't know what I am talking about."

If you can come up with a better Sci-Fi show then write the damn thing and stop bellyaching about some else's genius and talent.

Next thing I know you will be ripping on Casablanca, and whining about Citizen Kane and telling me that Orson Well's was lost and had no vision.

[Sarah]

I just have to say I saw Trek again tonight: still legendary win.

[Monker]

What YOU are saying, and what I am arguing with, is that BSG is 'anti-Trek'. It's like saying BE is anti-Journey...even tho they have the same writers writing the same style of music from Journey.

You have proven my point for me...all but admitting you were wrong.

And, you were running on air from the start of this...not knowing what you were talking about.

That's not the point I was making an you know it. Stop taking something out of one context and putting into another. Someone's style of telling a story is not the same as a premise of the story itself. The premise of BSG is anti-trek and I already explained why. Remember? No aliens? Technology = bad? And the idea of "God" instead of wormhole space butterflies or whatever those DS9 things were.

So, it's anti-Trek even tho Trek also has its own show which is largely based on religion and religious politics...very much the same as BSG. You just don't want to admit that Moore took the ideas from DS9 and put them in BSG. it's not anti-Trek...it's very much the same.

But you are going to stand around all day and whine about it because it went right the hell over your head!!!'/quote]

It didn't go over my head...I'm just not a Kool-Aid drinking fool.

And you tell me "I don't know what I am talking about."

Yep.

If you can come up with a better Sci-Fi show then write the damn thing and stop bellyaching about some else's genius and talent.

Ron Moore has talent, but he's no genius. It's not genius to take an already existing cult-classic and rewrite into fitting your own desires for 'dark' scifi. When he can come up with his own show, then he can be a genius. Stealing ideas from Trek and injecting them into BSG is not genius. Rodenberry, Lucas, and even Glen A. Larson fit that category MUCH better the Moore...even considering their faults.

Next thing I know you will be ripping on Casablanca, and whining about Citizen Kane and telling me that Orson Well's was lost and had no vision.

Nope. But, I will say that Ron Moore is not Orsen Wells....not even close.

[Duncan]

Eddie Izzard on Star Trek

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbOC0uoK ... re=related

but this is the best... the Death Star Canteen. Cracks me up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv5iEK-I ... re=related

[Monker]

Looks like Sci Fi is airing Serenity tonight at 9PM. Any good? Maybe I'll tune in. I'm no fan of Joss Whedon, but Summer Glau is in it. She is hawt.

Yes, Serenity is very good.

[verslibre]

Looks like Sci Fi is airing Serenity tonight at 9PM. Any good? Maybe I'll tune in. I'm no fan of Joss Whedon, but Summer Glau is in it. She is hawt.

Yes, Serenity is very good.

Nah, it sucked. I fell asleep an hour into it, then I woke up and saw the last half hour!

[verslibre]

Roddenberry, Lucas, and even Glen A. Larson fit that category MUCH better the Moore...even considering their faults.

Do not ever call George Luca$ a genius. Not an artistic one, anyway. More like a con artist. Between Star Trek, Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica, SW is by far the least original of the three, and has the worst acting & writing every which way but loose!

[Don]

Roddenberry, Lucas, and even Glen A. Larson fit that category MUCH better the Moore...even considering their faults.

Do not ever call George Luca$ a genius. Not an artistic one, anyway. More like a con artist. Between Star Trek, Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica, SW is by far the least original of the three, and has the worst acting & writing every which way but loose!

Didn't Lucas basically just transform an Akira Kurosawa Film into a space flick.

Edited: I guess I Should specify who I am talking about.

[Zedul]

It didn't go over my head...I'm just not a Kool-Aid drinking fool.

Nice Monker... but I suppose it's better than "dumb faggot" which is what the last BSG hater I argued with called me.

[Rip Rokken]

Ok, here's a dumb question for the BSG fans. I don't think I even saw the full pilot episode come to think of it, so how did they explain the classic Vipers and Cylon suits from the original show that they worked into the story?

[Sarah]

Looks like Sci Fi is airing Serenity tonight at 9PM. Any good? Maybe I'll tune in. I'm no fan of Joss Whedon, but Summer Glau is in it. She is hawt.

Yes, Serenity is very good.

Nah, it sucked. I fell asleep an hour into it, then I woke up and saw the last half hour!

Firefly was much better imo.

Also, Lucas just might be a genius for the way he "hacked" his way through Star Wars and still ended up making it such a cultural phenom. I'll agree he ruined the prequels, though.

I've realized as I'm reading all this Trek/anti-Trek discussion that the reason I probably didn't like BSG is that it's incredibly depressing. As someone else pointed out, there is no alien life, technology is the enemy etc. Trek is so much more optimistic than that. It's a future I like to hope for and see as a possibility.