Kevin Chalfant singing "Separate Ways" live, 2009!

[kgdjpubs]

And for whatever reason, Neal chose not to hire KC in 1998 when they hired Steve Augeri and made the same decision in 2007 when they considered Jeremey and then Arnel.

Frankly, I wouldn't have hired Chalfant in 2007. He's done a good job keeping his voice, but you are playing with fire to hire someone that age to sing the Journey catalog. And as far as '98, that might not be exactly the way it went down....

[Monker]

And for whatever reason, Neal chose not to hire KC in 1998 when they hired Steve Augeri and made the same decision in 2007 when they considered Jeremey and then Arnel.

Frankly, I wouldn't have hired Chalfant in 2007. He's done a good job keeping his voice, but you are playing with fire to hire someone that age to sing the Journey catalog. And as far as '98, that might not be exactly the way it went down....

What do you mean that isn't how it went down? Neal said in an interview on this site that they considered Chalfant but decided against it because they had already been there, and the Storm was kind of a mini-Journey anyway. The only other buzz I heard back then was Perry stopped it cuz he absolutely did not want Chalfant in the band.

[kgdjpubs]

And for whatever reason, Neal chose not to hire KC in 1998 when they hired Steve Augeri and made the same decision in 2007 when they considered Jeremey and then Arnel.

Frankly, I wouldn't have hired Chalfant in 2007. He's done a good job keeping his voice, but you are playing with fire to hire someone that age to sing the Journey catalog. And as far as '98, that might not be exactly the way it went down....

What do you mean that isn't how it went down? Neal said in an interview on this site that they considered Chalfant but decided against it because they had already been there, and the Storm was kind of a mini-Journey anyway. The only other buzz I heard back then was Perry stopped it cuz he absolutely did not want Chalfant in the band.

check your messages.

[SherriBerry]

Almost all of the radio-friendly hits that came out during the Rolie years that TNC mentioned are Perry/Schon songs, with the exception of WITS (which has no writing credit for Rolie) and Feeling That Way, which is a Perry/Rolie/Dunbar song.

Valid point.
But Cain would still have been in the group.
Throw in Schon and Chalfant, and who knows what they would've came up with.

Neal is already one of the most important parts of the Journey hitmaking team - the question is what Rolie or Chalfant bring to the songwriting. What exactly is it that you expect them to contribute that would be better than what resulted with TBF?

At the time, no one in their right mind would have given up a chance to have Steve Perry back in Journey - the label wanted it, the band obviously wanted it, and the fans especially wanted it.

Herbie Herbert wanted Perry out even earlier than ROR.
Success comes with taking risks.
Once again, they should've listened to the big man.

Herbie wanted Perry out because he was the only one who challenged his authority and prevented him from taking full ownership of the band. What was best for Journey may not have been what was best for Herbie, but as a manager I can understand why he would not want to deal with SP.

'Trial By Fire' is a beautiful album, so they were on the right track.

On the right track to do what?

On the right track to producing a beautiful album, the only one that ever garnered a Grammy nod and a potentially amazing reunion.

No one could have predicted SP's hip surgery (not wanting to tour, well, HH did predict that) or predicted SA's vocal problems or what would have become of adding Rolie/Chalfant.

Not to be repetitious, but Herbie seems to have had the foresight of all these things.

No he didn't. He initially liked SA and didn't realize there was a problem until the Vegas show they recorded for the DVD. He could not have predicted SP's hip! He did like KC, but pointed out that he was barely in the original key back then and that may have been an issue in his not being hired.

As for SA's vocal problems, I had my doubts about him handling the catalog just from listening to his live Tyketto boots back in the day.

Hindsight is 20/20 - funny how you have a better ear than Neal!

They aren't hitmakers on their own...

Not sure if you're aware of this, but the band has released three albums without Perry since 2001...

Taken out of context. Reread my original post - I was obviously talking about Rolie and Chalfant, not Cain and Schon. And I own every Journey album with the exception of 'Red 13', so yes I am aware of what they have produced since 2001.

Given what he knew at the time, I believe Neal made the right decisions. Considering how well Journey is currently doing with Arnel - I think that was another smart decision.

I don't see how you can put down the songwriting potential of Chalfant and Rolie, who have solid rock street cred, while holding up the Augeri and Arnel lineups as models of success.
Just what exactly did they contribute to the process again?

I'm not putting down their potential - I'm saying I have not seen anything that demonstrates that their songwriting potential would have outshone what was produced with SP in Trial By Fire. If KC has better songs in his sock drawer, he should record them. You should reread my original post, because you missed quite a bit. I said nothing about SA's or Arnel's songwriting - I simply pointed out that Neal had the chance to hire KC on two separate occasions and chose to hire SA and Arnel instead, so perhaps there is something to that, particularly given the success Journey is currently enjoying with Arnel. Rolie didn't write any radio friendly hits while he was with Journey the first time and it isn't the sound that he likes anyway, so what exactly is it that you think has changed?

[Abitaman]

I think, with Kevin and Greg in the band, it would have only made the band better, which is good already.
Kevin is not a Perry clone, he can sound close to Perry without being Perry. Kevin is a proven singer, writer and producer, plus can play some instruments.
Rolie is a proven singer, keyboardist, and writer.
Put that together with Neal, the best guitarist on the face of the earth, plus a good song writer, and..
Jon Cain the (co)song writer of Journey top songs, plus a keyboardist, guitar player, and producer, along with
Deen and great drummer and great singer in his own right.

I believe this could have been a new era for Journey (and I do not mean this to take away from the current line up who is doing well, the Augeri years which I loved, or the JSS time, which like Kevin could have been something awesome, or Jeremy who could be taking the band the road with new music like the current line up.) Double keys or guitars on songs. The vocal harmony could have been awe inspiring. Who knows what could have happened on the charts, hit or miss, the band would have had a line up that could have been theri best. But we will never know, and that is the sad thing.

[Monker]

I'm not putting down their potential - I'm saying I have not seen anything that demonstrates that their songwriting potential would have outshone what was produced with SP in Trial By Fire. If KC has better songs in his sock drawer, he should record them. You should reread my original post, because you missed quite a bit.

The songs in his sock drawer are songs he wrote with Gregg, Neal and Jonathan. If you read the full interview where he made that comment, you would see he put those comments in the context of saying he prefered the pre-Escape sound of Journey and TBF did nothing to recapture that magic...in fact it does nothing for those who were expecting more from Journey then an album full ballads and mid-tempo pop songs, with only a couple interesting rock songs.

That's his opinion and I think a lot of people agree with it.

Rolie didn't write any radio friendly hits

Feeling That Way, Just the Same Way, Anytime.

What is your point? A hall of famer, a founding member of three bands that had success in three different decades....this person could not be a valuable member of the band?

it isn't the sound that he likes anyway, so what exactly is it that you think has changed?

He only soured to the pop sound after Sony, Journey, and particularly Neal, screwed him, KC, and Herbie with Journey and Abraxas Pool. That left a sour taste in his mouth for pop bands...and I don't blame him for feeling that way.

[Abitaman]

Rolie didn't write any radio friendly hits

Feeling That Way, Just the Same Way, Anytime.

What is your point? A hall of famer, a founding member of three bands that had success in three different decades....this person could not be a valuable member of the band?

.

Rolie hits were not as big as Cain's true. But what a lot of people seem to be thinking that Greg is replacing Jon. That's not it. It would have been Jon and Greg together with Neal, Deen (or Smitty) and Kevin. They actually would have had more writing power and a bigger field and variety to pull from. Journey would not been a Santana sound alike. Journey would have had more choice and power to pick from. Jon would not have gave up keyboards, he would have played more guitar true, but think of what they could have done with two keyboardists on a song, or two guitarist and one keyboardist. A lot more room to explore. Plus you would have Jon to write the weepy (but good) ballads.
This line up would only have been a plus, even without the voice.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Neal is already one of the most important parts of the Journey hitmaking team - the question is what Rolie or Chalfant bring to the songwriting.

This is a false argument.
You can’t commend Neal for choosing Arnel, who has little to zilch in terms of writing cred, and then turn around and disqualify Gregg and Chalfant for not being prolific songwriters.
Between the two Storm albums, Two Fires, and Rolie’s various contributions to Journey and Santana, I don’t even know why you’re asking this.

What exactly is it that you expect them to contribute that would be better than what resulted with TBF?

How about becoming an active creative unit again?
Y’know, one that actually wrote and toured, rather than went on an all-expense-paid Sony PR junket that served little but to puff up Perry’s ego.

'Trial By Fire' is a beautiful album, so they were on the right track.

On the right track to do what?

On the right track to producing a beautiful album, the only one that ever garnered a Grammy nod and a potentially amazing reunion.

By any conservative measure TBF hurt the band more than it helped.
Sure, it helped move a few copies of the GH, but as far as the post-Perry lineup was concerned, it was a setback.
The Perry lineup getting a Grammy nod also did little favors for the re-formed group.
In fact, it only convinced people of Perry’s supposed indispensability.
The worst part is, the end result is exactly where they were before the reunion – starting a new lineup.
As Neal said: “It was like we had nothing. We had something but it was like a big tease. We got together, it was a big tease and now it is gone already. Screw it man.”

As for a “potentially amazing reunion”…that’s meaningless.
If you’re going to argue from the land of what-ifs and make believe then I might as well make up anything too.
For all we know, the Chalfant/Rolie lineup had the *potential* to release albums that swept the Grammys, went triple platinum, and sold out Wembley Stadium weeks at a time.
See how that works?

Hindsight is 20/20 - funny how you have a better ear than Neal!

You mean the admitted tinnitus sufferer who’s been standing next to refrigerator-sized amplifiers since the age of ten?
Whether or not Augeri was capable of the Journey catalog has been discussed online for years - even prior to Arrival.
It’s nothing special.
Many people questioned if he could hack it, not the least of which being the man himself.
Augeri has stated repeatedly that singing Journey was far removed from anything he did before.
Go dust off the Tyketto Live album.
Hell, he’s hardly even a tenor there.

They aren't hitmakers on their own...

Not sure if you're aware of this, but the band has released three albums without Perry since 2001...

Taken out of context. Reread my original post - I was obviously talking about Rolie and Chalfant, not Cain and Schon.

Actually, NO, it wasn’t obvious.
In fact, the post after mine, by Onstepper, also thought you were referring to Cain and Schon.
That said, The Storm did have singles that charted.
So either you're ignorant or biased, or maybe both.

I'm not putting down their potential - I'm saying I have not seen anything that demonstrates that their songwriting potential would have outshone what was produced with SP in Trial By Fire.

You are arguing in favor of ONE album over the fruitless span of 12 years, compared to a lineup that, in all likelihood, would’ve toured and made multiple albums.
Even now, Perry is toiling away on new music at the pace of Michelangelo on the Sistine Chapel.
TBF is a decent album, but is it worth sacrificing whatever new music the KC/Rolie lineup would’ve created?
This fan says no.

I said nothing about SA's or Arnel's songwriting - I simply pointed out that Neal had the chance to hire KC on two separate occasions and chose to hire SA and Arnel…

No, you merely used writing talent as the litmus test for Chalfant and Rolie, while never applying it to the guys who were ultimately picked.

So perhaps there is something to that, particularly given the success Journey is currently enjoying with Arnel.

I don’t know what this means.
If your standard for new band members is whether or not they write equal to or better than Perry, then this should be applied equally.

Rolie didn't write any radio friendly hits while he was with Journey the first time and it isn't the sound that he likes anyway, so what exactly is it that you think has changed?

The Storm was plenty radio friendly, Rolie also scored hits outside of Journey and The Storm.
Besides, as you’ve demonstrated repeatedly, writing talent isn’t even the real issue here.
If that were truly the case, you’d be up in arms over the exactly ZERO writing credits Arnel has on Revelation.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Rolie hits were not as big as Cain's true. But what a lot of people seem to be thinking is Greg is replacing Jon. That's not it. It would have been Jon and Greg together with Neal, Deen (or Smitty) and Kevin. They actually would have had more writing power and a bigger field and variety to pull from. Journey would not been a Santana sound alike. Journey would have had more choice and power to pick from. Jon would not ahve gave up keyboards, he would have palyed more guiatr true, but think of what they could have done with two keyboardists on a song, or two guitarist and one keyboardist. A lot more room to explore. Plus you would have Jon to write the weepy (but good) ballads.
This line up would only ahve been a plus, even without the voice.

Great post.
Good to see ya Eric.

[The_Noble_Cause]

What is your point? A hall of famer, a founding member of three bands that had success in three different decades....this person could not be a valuable member of the band?

That about sums it up right there.

[Aaron]

Kevin sounds good and the song sounds like it's in it's original key. I'm still morning the Chalfant, Rolie, Schon, Ross, Smitty line up that only happened once. : ( Does anyone have a boot of that Hawaii show?

[SherriBerry]

Neal is already one of the most important parts of the Journey hitmaking team - the question is what Rolie or Chalfant bring to the songwriting.

This is a false argument.
You can’t commend Neal for choosing Arnel, who has little to zilch in terms of writing cred, and then turn around and disqualify Gregg and Chalfant for not being prolific songwriters.
Between the two Storm albums, Two Fires, and Rolie’s various contributions to Journey and Santana, I don’t even know why you’re asking this.

This is ridiculous - you have taken comments from completely different parts of my post that had nothing to do with each other and twisted them around. Here I was responding to your statement about the songwriting potential of Schon and Chalfant and pointing out we were discussing Rolie and Chalfant, not Neal. If you are going to argue, at least include the quote of what I am responding to - this was not in my original post. I noted in my original post that in '98 and 2007 Neal could have chosen to hire KC and opted not to, hiring SA and Arnel respectively and that Journey is now enjoying great success with Arnel. It simply demonstrates that whatever incredible potential you feel was there in hiring KC to be the lead singer was not shared by the band. And in my original post, I compared their potential songwriting contributions to those of Steve Perry - NOT Arnel or SA. I never said Rolie or Chalfant were not "prolific" songwriters - those are your words, not mine. "Prolific" means "abundant" and does not relate to the style, quality, or relative success of the songs produced. We were discussing the choice to go with SP over a Rolie/Chalfant lineup back in 96 for TBF, remember?

What exactly is it that you expect them to contribute that would be better than what resulted with TBF?

Well, here you conveniently remember.

How about becoming an active creative unit again?
Y’know, one that actually wrote and toured, rather than went on an all-expense-paid Sony PR junket that served little but to puff up Perry’s ego.

This demonstrates you simply have an anti-Perry bias. They did write and rather well on TBF. I'm as sorry as anyone that it didn't work out!

'Trial By Fire' is a beautiful album, so they were on the right track.

On the right track to do what?

On the right track to producing a beautiful album, the only one that ever garnered a Grammy nod and a potentially amazing reunion.

By any conservative measure TBF hurt the band more than it helped.

I don't agree that it hurt more than it helped. It was simply a two year delay tacked on to a decade. And if you are going to bring up the tour advance they had to give back, note that it was an advance against touring, so if one nickel was spent by anyone before they fulfilled their contract and earned it, that is simply poor financial planning.

As for a “potentially amazing reunion”…that’s meaningless.
If you’re going to argue from the land of what-ifs and make believe then I might as well make up anything too.
For all we know, the Chalfant/Rolie lineup had the *potential* to release albums that swept the Grammys, went triple platinum, and sold out Wembley Stadium weeks at a time.
See how that works?

Actually, it is not meaningless. One can consider Journey's history of success during the Perry/Cain/Schon years with tours and millions in album sales, combined with a new album receiving their first Grammy nomination and the continued sales success of their original Greatest Hits, and extrapolate from that a great potential for continued success. The potential success of the band fronted by KC and with Rolie has no track record and there are too many unknowns to gauge its potential with any degree of certainty.

However, The Storm, which combined KC, Rolie, Valory and Smitty did not reach a fraction of Journey's success and after a few years, Rolie left and went back to "the Santana sound" with Abraxas Pool. He is currently touring playing the Santana style music and nothing he wrote while in Journey, which should at least cause one to question how long he would have stayed in Journey playing pop/rock and the potential longevity of that lineup. See how that works?

Hindsight is 20/20 - funny how you have a better ear than Neal!

You mean the admitted tinnitus sufferer who’s been standing next to refrigerator-sized amplifiers since the age of ten?
Whether or not Augeri was capable of the Journey catalog has been discussed online for years - even prior to Arrival.
It’s nothing special.

Again, I am responding to your statement that you in fact claimed to know better when you first heard of SA's hiring. And there is a difference between one's level of hearing and their "ear" for music. I will take the "ear" of one of the greatest rock guitarists in the world, who plays music "by ear" and has what HH referred to as "dog hearing" - the ability to catch every note SA sang on stage while standing in front of said refrigerator-sized amplifiers - over yours!

They aren't hitmakers on their own...

Not sure if you're aware of this, but the band has released three albums without Perry since 2001...

Taken out of context. Reread my original post - I was obviously talking about Rolie and Chalfant, not Cain and Schon.

Actually, NO, it wasn’t obvious.
In fact, the post after mine, by Onstepper, also thought you were referring to Cain and Schon.

I spent two paragraphs writing about Rolie and Chalfant and then started a sentence with "they" directly after discussing them in the previous sentence. Rather straightforward. I believe Onestepper was simply responding to your interpretation.

That said, The Storm did have singles that charted.
So either you're ignorant or biased, or maybe both.

Yes, I am aware that they had 3 songs that charted. But I believe you and I have a different definition of what constitutes a "hit" and I do not really consider charting for a week or two and then never hearing the song on the radio again to be a level of success that would define either as "hitmakers".

I'm not putting down their potential - I'm saying I have not seen anything that demonstrates that their songwriting potential would have outshone what was produced with SP in Trial By Fire.

You are arguing in favor of ONE album over the fruitless span of 12 years, compared to a lineup that, in all likelihood, would’ve toured and made multiple albums.
Even now, Perry is toiling away on new music at the pace of Michelangelo on the Sistine Chapel.
TBF is a decent album, but is it worth sacrificing whatever new music the KC/Rolie lineup would’ve created?
This fan says no.

You're entitled to your opinion, but in 1996 I would have taken the potential of a Perry-led Journey over the potential of a Rolie/Chalfant lineup which was the point of my original post. When Perry reunited with Journey, they wrote TBF in a matter of weeks, so his solo songwriting versus what he helps write while with Cain and Schon are two completely different things and does not support your point.

I said nothing about SA's or Arnel's songwriting - I simply pointed out that Neal had the chance to hire KC on two separate occasions and chose to hire SA and Arnel…

No, you merely used writing talent as the litmus test for Chalfant and Rolie, while never applying it to the guys who were ultimately picked.

I questioned what they could have contributed to the songwriting that was greater than what would have been contributed by Steve Perry - again, you are the one making this erroneous connection. I was discussing the Rolie/Chalfant lineup versus Perry reuniting with Journey pre-TBF.

So perhaps there is something to that, particularly given the success Journey is currently enjoying with Arnel.

I don’t know what this means.
If your standard for new band members is whether or not they write equal to or better than Perry, then this should be applied equally.

You left off the previous sentence when you quoted this. I was referring to the fact that after TBF and the axed Rolie/Chalfant lineup, Neal chose again not to hire KC to be Journey's lead singer - he didn't hire him 2 years after the Rolie/Chalfant lineup fell apart and he didn't hire him 11 years later. I would like to know why, since you are convinced of the great potetial KC brought to Journey. What happened? Perhaps there is something we are not aware of - it certainly would not be the first time with this band!

Rolie didn't write any radio friendly hits while he was with Journey the first time and it isn't the sound that he likes anyway, so what exactly is it that you think has changed?

The Storm was plenty radio friendly, Rolie also scored hits outside of Journey and The Storm.
Besides, as you’ve demonstrated repeatedly, writing talent isn’t even the real issue here.
If that were truly the case, you’d be up in arms over the exactly ZERO writing credits Arnel has on Revelation.

A song being a "radio friendly hit" or just simply "radio friendly" is not the same thing and I specified "while he was with Journey" which is important, as in my original post I stated quite clearly that Rolie is a very talented singer and musician, but I questioned what he would contribute to Journey in terms of moving their sound forward. He keeps going back to his roots, which is what Journey sought to get away from musically with Cain. My only mention of Arnel was that Journey is doing very well with him as lead singer. Neal's choosing him over KC in 2007 simply supports the notion that many here are overestimating the potential of the Rolie/Chalfant lineup. I certainly did not say there was no potential, but compared to the possibility of an SP reunion in 1996? Many here have guessed that Journey would jump at the chance to reunite and tour with SP now!

It is quite evident that I consider Rolie to be a great talent - I didn't spend $100 on a ticket 7 months ago to hear him in concert because I don't like his music. And I complimented KC's talent as a vocalist! Did you miss that part too?

[SherriBerry]

What is your point? A hall of famer, a founding member of three bands that had success in three different decades....this person could not be a valuable member of the band?

That about sums it up right there.

Except I never said he could not be a valuable member of the band! I stated quite clearly that he is a very talented singer and musician, but merely questioned what he would have contributed to move Journey's sound forward in 1996 that would have outshone what Journey accomplished with Steve Perry on TBF. Particularly when Rolie's favourite sound is the 70s era Santana sound that he consistently returns to and currently plays, not pop/rock and nothing from the Journey catalogue.

Don't put words in my mouth and quite frankly, a few of you need to get the knots out of your shorts! The only reason I won't be standing in front of the stage on Sunday to hear the Gregg Rolie Band live is that my surgery recently got scheduled for the Friday two days before and even with painkillers I will not be in any kind of shape to go - although in that condition I would probably fit in more easily.

[Abitaman]

Rolie hits were not as big as Cain's true. But what a lot of people seem to be thinking is Greg is replacing Jon. That's not it. It would have been Jon and Greg together with Neal, Deen (or Smitty) and Kevin. They actually would have had more writing power and a bigger field and variety to pull from. Journey would not been a Santana sound alike. Journey would have had more choice and power to pick from. Jon would not ahve gave up keyboards, he would have palyed more guiatr true, but think of what they could have done with two keyboardists on a song, or two guitarist and one keyboardist. A lot more room to explore. Plus you would have Jon to write the weepy (but good) ballads.
This line up would only ahve been a plus, even without the voice.

Great post.
Good to see ya Eric.

Good to see you too!!!
I have been busy at work and other things, takes a good post to get me on.
I tell you, I need to start checking my spelling before hitting submit..................................

[Abitaman]

What is your point? A hall of famer, a founding member of three bands that had success in three different decades....this person could not be a valuable member of the band?

That about sums it up right there.

Except I never said he could not be a valuable member of the band! I stated quite clearly that he is a very talented singer and musician, but merely questioned what he would have contributed to move Journey's sound forward in 1996 that would have outshone what Journey accomplished with Steve Perry on TBF. Particularly when Rolie's favourite sound is the 70s era Santana sound that he consistently returns to and currently plays, not pop/rock and nothing from the Journey catalogue.

Don't put words in my mouth and quite frankly, a few of you need to get the knots out of your shorts! The only reason I won't be standing in front of the stage on Sunday to hear the Gregg Rolie Band live is that my surgery recently got scheduled for the Friday two days before and even with painkillers I will not be in any kind of shape to go - although in that condition I would probably fit in more easily.

IMO, just about anything would have been better than most of Trail By Fire. It is my least favorite Perry era Journey cd. When compared to anything the Storm did, the Storm wins hands down. When compared to anything done by Chalfant in that time peroid, solo, Storm, or Two Fires, Kevin wins and Perry loses, IMO. And when Kevin's and Perry's work is compared since the Trial By Fire cd, Kevin Wins big time.
I know Perry has written material in the past that is part of rock history, but until Perry does something new, he is just a part of history.

[Eric]

Trial by Fire is not what Journey fans expected (consensus wise)

I wish they would have hired Mickey Thomas in 1984 after the Frontiers tour when Herbie wanted them to dump Perry. They wouldn't have missed a beat.

[G.I.Jim]

Trial by Fire is not what Journey fans expected (consensus wise)

I wish they would have hired Mickey Thomas in 1984 after the Frontiers tour when Herbie wanted them to dump Perry. They wouldn't have missed a beat.

I love Mickey Thomas, but he woudn't have fit Journey at all vocal-wise. At least I don't think so. Not to mention that some of you here are calling Chalfant boring on stage... have you seen Mickey? I have the Starship dvd, and it is boring (and weak) as HELL! I had more fun watching Winger live on dvd, and they just stood there like statues. At least Winger SOUNDED awesome.

[Abitaman]

Just got a Starship/airpalne box set a couple weeks ago. Mickey can sing, but your right, I do not see him fitting Journey. But who knows, once he was in Journey with Cain and Neal that could have changed.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Except I never said he could not be a valuable member of the band! I stated quite clearly that he is a very talented singer and musician, but merely questioned what he would have contributed to move Journey's sound forward in 1996 that would have outshone what Journey accomplished with Steve Perry on TBF.

TBF is a one-off album.
There was no tour.
The band ended up moving on with three replacement singers who never "contributed to move Journey's sound forward."
So this is a bogus argument.

Particularly when Rolie's favourite sound is the 70s era Santana sound that he consistently returns to and currently plays, not pop/rock and nothing from the Journey catalogue.

Once again, you dismiss his efforts with The Storm.
You also fail to mention that Rolie has been known to play Journeys songs at his solo shows.
FTW/Anytime, and AWYWI, have been covered by Chalfant and others.

[Eric]

Just got a Starship/airpalne box set a couple weeks ago. Mickey can sing, but your right, I do not see him fitting Journey. But who knows, once he was in Journey with Cain and Neal that could have changed.

Remember that he used 3-4 Journey tracks booted from Arrival for his Over the Edge CD. I thought at the time he sounded like a strong Augeri on those. However, I was thinking more about 1984 more than a replacement now. Journey would have continued throughout the 80's and early 90's...then taken their break at a more appropriate time, then maybe could have regrouped with Perry this decade. Continuing with a burnt out Perry after Frontiers was just no good for anyone. We got ROR and TBF and a half a tour from '84-'97....and then they needed to regroup without Perry at a much more difficult stage of their career.

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/mus ... e+Edge.htm

Also, Mickey Thomas can write and had a following of his own to bring into the band in '84.....

Not great on this, but not terrible...and again...prolly woulda worked in '84:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-nU2gK_aXM

[Abitaman]

Particularly when Rolie's favourite sound is the 70s era Santana sound that he consistently returns to and currently plays, not pop/rock and nothing from the Journey catalogue.

Once again, you dismiss his efforts with The Storm.
You also fail to mention that Rolie has been known to play Journeys songs at his solo shows.
FTW/Anytime, and AWYWI, have been covered by Chalfant and others.

Have to remember too, that the main reason he contiunes with the Santana sound instead of Journey, is the main fact he can not sing like Steve Perry. When he has covered Journey songs on his solo tours, Kevin as been there, or he has brought a high pitched singer to do the job for those songs. So why should he write like Journey or sing like them, when he can not sound like Perry. When he wanted to do the Journey type of song, he did! And did it better with his and Kevin's 2 Storm cds, than Journey did with ROR and TBF.

[The_Noble_Cause]

This is ridiculous - you have taken comments from completely different parts of my post that had nothing to do with each other and twisted them around. Here I was responding to your statement about the songwriting potential of Schon and Chalfant and pointing out we were discussing Rolie and Chalfant, not Neal. If you are going to argue, at least include the quote of what I am responding to - this was not in my original post. I noted in my original post that in '98 and 2007 Neal could have chosen to hire KC and opted not to, hiring SA and Arnel respectively and that Journey is now enjoying great success with Arnel. It simply demonstrates that whatever incredible potential you feel was there in hiring KC to be the lead singer was not shared by the band. And in my original post, I compared their potential songwriting contributions to those of Steve Perry - NOT Arnel or SA. I never said Rolie or Chalfant were not "prolific" songwriters - those are your words, not mine. "Prolific" means "abundant" and does not relate to the style, quality, or relative success of the songs produced. We were discussing the choice to go with SP over a Rolie/Chalfant lineup back in 96 for TBF, remember?

Lady, look, I don’t know what you’re rambling about anymore, and I really don't care.
Truthfully, I don’t even think you know what you’re trying to say.
As with many others in this thread, my initial point was that the Chalfant/Rolie lineup would’ve been something special.
If you view that as some perceived slight to Steve Perry, that is not my problem.
That is all.

Y’know, one that actually wrote and toured, rather than went on an all-expense-paid Sony PR junket that served little but to puff up Perry’s ego.

This demonstrates you simply have an anti-Perry bias. They did write and rather well on TBF. I'm as sorry as anyone that it didn't work out!

The band DID not tour after TBF.

I don't agree that it hurt more than it helped. It was simply a two year delay tacked on to a decade. And if you are going to bring up the tour advance they had to give back, note that it was an advance against touring, so if one nickel was spent by anyone before they fulfilled their contract and earned it, that is simply poor financial planning.

Wrong.
As Monker already pointed out, after TBF, the band had to prove their worth to Sony before even getting a record deal.
You think that would’ve been the case with Herbie pulling the strings at the height of their popularity with a Chalfant/Rolie lineup?
Think again.

Actually, it is not meaningless. One can consider Journey's history of success during the Perry/Cain/Schon years with tours and millions in album sales, combined with a new album receiving their first Grammy nomination and the continued sales success of their original Greatest Hits, and extrapolate from that a great potential for continued success.

But the Augeri era didn’t have “continued success” coming off of TBF.
They toured reasonably well, but Arrival flopped.
TBF didn’t do anything but remind people that Journey was Perry and Perry was Journey.
If anything, it made it harder for the band to move out from under his shadow.

However, The Storm, which combined KC, Rolie, Valory and Smitty did not reach a fraction of Journey's success and after a few years,...

And FTLOSM didn’t come close to equaling Journey’s success.
What’s your point?
You’re grabbing at straws.
First, it was writing credentials.
Now it’s album sales.
At this point, you’ll reach for anything to diminish Chalfant and Rolie’s abilities.
If either of those things are the sine qua non of being in Journey than why haven’t you applied them to Arnel or Augeri or JSS?
Your posts are a lot of noise.

Rolie left and went back to "the Santana sound" with Abraxas Pool.

So?
How many times has Neal went careening off in different musical directions?
What is your point?

He is currently touring playing the Santana style music and nothing he wrote while in Journey, which should at least cause one to question how long he would have stayed in Journey playing pop/rock and the potential longevity of that lineup. See how that works?

Rolie has included Journey songs in his live sets on many occasions. Try again.
Also, by your own arbitrarily applied standard, Perry should never have returned to the fold.
Considering that he has yet to return to the public spotlight since TBF, this would seem to indicate he would not be sticking with Journey for the long haul.

Again, I am responding to your statement that you in fact claimed to know better when you first heard of SA's hiring. And there is a difference between one's level of hearing and their "ear" for music. I will take the "ear" of one of the greatest rock guitarists in the world, who plays music "by ear" and has what HH referred to as "dog hearing" - the ability to catch every note SA sang on stage while standing in front of said refrigerator-sized amplifiers - over yours!

Anyone familiar with Augeri’s non-Journey work, including Augeri himself, would tell you this was going to be a tough row to hoe.
And it was.
If you think Neal is infallible, especially when it comes to business decisions, you have not been paying attention.

Yes, I am aware that they had 3 songs that charted. But I believe you and I have a different definition of what constitutes a "hit" and I do not really consider charting for a week or two and then never hearing the song on the radio again to be a level of success that would define either as "hitmakers".

Neal and Jon never had commercial success on their own.
By that standard, perhaps they show throw their own asses out of the band, right?
Remind me, how many hits again did Arnel, Jeff, and SA score?
This is just another random yardstick you’ve whipped out to confirm your own biases.

You're entitled to your opinion, but in 1996 I would have taken the potential of a Perry-led Journey over the potential of a Rolie/Chalfant lineup which was the point of my original post. When Perry reunited with Journey, they wrote TBF in a matter of weeks, so his solo songwriting versus what he helps write while with Cain and Schon are two completely different things and does not support your point.

My only point is, Chalfant and Rolie are great talents, with ties to Journey, and would’ve been tremendous assets to the band.
Besides, Herbie wanted Chalfant in even prior to TBF.
I think its Journey’s loss – period.

You left off the previous sentence when you quoted this.

No, I didn’t.
I responded to the first part of your sentence, and even added an ellipsis (…) to show the quote was not finished.
I then tackled the remaining second part. I have not quoted you out of context.
Stop bitching.

A song being a "radio friendly hit" or just simply "radio friendly" is not the same thing and I specified "while he was with Journey" which is important, as in my original post I stated quite clearly that Rolie is a very talented singer and musician….

I hear “Feeling that Way” and “Anytime” on classic rock stations frequently.
To be sure, they’re not played with the same regularity as DSB or SW, but they’re there.

…but I questioned what he would contribute to Journey in terms of moving their sound forward. He keeps going back to his roots, which is what Journey sought to get away from musically with Cain.

Cain changed the band’s sound, it goes without saying, because he is a different musician.
I don’t think they actively ran away from their sound.
The concerted effort to go more commercial was already in progress.
As for how Rolie and Chalfant would “move their sound forward”, I think you’re interest in this bogus.
TBF is hardly what I call cutting edge.
In fact, Revelation tracks like “What I Needed” and “Like a Sunshower” are decidedly vintage Infinity-era throwbacks.
So where is your outrage?

My only mention of Arnel was that Journey is doing very well with him as lead singer. Neal's choosing him over KC in 2007 simply supports the notion that many here are overestimating the potential of the Rolie/Chalfant lineup.

Right.
Because a few Journey covers on YouTube clearly surpasses two lifetimes of original work in the genre, ranging from Santana to Journey to The Storm to Two Fires.
You seem to place your faith in Neal as some omnipotent being who can do no wrong.
Who are you kidding?
This band has fucked up repeatedly.

It is quite evident that I consider Rolie to be a great talent - I didn't spend $100 on a ticket 7 months ago to hear him in concert because I don't like his music. And I complimented KC's talent as a vocalist! Did you miss that part too?

I read it. I don’t buy it.
There’s a laser like focus on Steve Perry throughout your comments, even when not relevant, that tells me you are more interested in defending an idol, than talking rationally.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Particularly when Rolie's favourite sound is the 70s era Santana sound that he consistently returns to and currently plays, not pop/rock and nothing from the Journey catalogue.

Once again, you dismiss his efforts with The Storm.
You also fail to mention that Rolie has been known to play Journeys songs at his solo shows.
FTW/Anytime, and AWYWI, have been covered by Chalfant and others.

Have to remember too, that the main reason he contiunes with the Santana sound instead of Journey, is the main fact he can not sing like Steve Perry. When he has covered Journey songs on his solo tours, Kevin as been there, or he has brought a high pitched singer to do the job for those songs. So why should he write like Journey or sing like them, when he can not sound like Perry. When he wanted to do the Journey type of song, he did! And did it better with his and Kevin's 2 Storm cds, than Journey did with ROR and TBF.

Yup. Of course.
The idea that doing one genre of music precludes Rolie from doing another is garbage.
AOR may not be where he's at anymore, but on top of that, for guys like him, there's really no market for it.
If Journey wasn't an already established money train, would Neal being playing this stuff?
Doubtful.
I think he'd rather be in Soul Sirkus or Chickenfoot.

[Abitaman]

Chickenfoot.

ROCKS

[Monker]

Particularly when Rolie's favourite sound is the 70s era Santana sound that he consistently returns to and currently plays, not pop/rock and nothing from the Journey catalogue.

This shows how ignorant you really are to where Gregg was in 1996. Sure, he had been in Abraxas Pool...But, he was abandoning that to join Journey. ALL of his solo albums prior to that were pop/rock - not Santana. Just a couple years prior, he (and Kevin) were performing Joureny songs as they toured with the Storm. To say he would bring some type of Santana sound to Journey in 1996 is opinion based on your wishful thinking and where Gregg is NOW, not where he was back then.

Again, you ignore the fact the entire Journey bullshit is what turned him off to pop and why he returned to his 'roots' in Santana. Gregg himself has said this in interviews in the past.

[SherriBerry]

This is ridiculous - you have taken comments from completely different parts of my post that had nothing to do with each other and twisted them around. Here I was responding to your statement about the songwriting potential of Schon and Chalfant and pointing out we were discussing Rolie and Chalfant, not Neal. If you are going to argue, at least include the quote of what I am responding to - this was not in my original post. I noted in my original post that in '98 and 2007 Neal could have chosen to hire KC and opted not to, hiring SA and Arnel respectively and that Journey is now enjoying great success with Arnel. It simply demonstrates that whatever incredible potential you feel was there in hiring KC to be the lead singer was not shared by the band. And in my original post, I compared their potential songwriting contributions to those of Steve Perry - NOT Arnel or SA. I never said Rolie or Chalfant were not "prolific" songwriters - those are your words, not mine. "Prolific" means "abundant" and does not relate to the style, quality, or relative success of the songs produced. We were discussing the choice to go with SP over a Rolie/Chalfant lineup back in 96 for TBF, remember?

Lady, look, I don’t know what you’re rambling about anymore, and I really don't care.
Truthfully, I don’t even think you know what you’re trying to say.
As with many others in this thread, my initial point was that the Chalfant/Rolie lineup would’ve been something special.
If you view that as some perceived slight to Steve Perry, that is not my problem.
That is all.

Y’know, one that actually wrote and toured, rather than went on an all-expense-paid Sony PR junket that served little but to puff up Perry’s ego.

This demonstrates you simply have an anti-Perry bias. They did write and rather well on TBF. I'm as sorry as anyone that it didn't work out!

The band DID not tour after TBF.

I don't agree that it hurt more than it helped. It was simply a two year delay tacked on to a decade. And if you are going to bring up the tour advance they had to give back, note that it was an advance against touring, so if one nickel was spent by anyone before they fulfilled their contract and earned it, that is simply poor financial planning.

Wrong.
As Monker already pointed out, after TBF, the band had to prove their worth to Sony before even getting a record deal.
You think that would’ve been the case with Herbie pulling the strings at the height of their popularity with a Chalfant/Rolie lineup?
Think again.

Actually, it is not meaningless. One can consider Journey's history of success during the Perry/Cain/Schon years with tours and millions in album sales, combined with a new album receiving their first Grammy nomination and the continued sales success of their original Greatest Hits, and extrapolate from that a great potential for continued success.

But the Augeri era didn’t have “continued success” coming off of TBF.
They toured reasonably well, but Arrival flopped.
TBF didn’t do anything but remind people that Journey was Perry and Perry was Journey.
If anything, it made it harder for the band to move out from under his shadow.

However, The Storm, which combined KC, Rolie, Valory and Smitty did not reach a fraction of Journey's success and after a few years,...

And FTLOSM didn’t come close to equaling Journey’s success.
What’s your point?
You’re grabbing at straws.
First, it was writing credentials.
Now it’s album sales.
At this point, you’ll reach for anything to diminish Chalfant and Rolie’s abilities.
If either of those things are the sine qua non of being in Journey than why haven’t you applied them to Arnel or Augeri or JSS?
Your posts are a lot of noise.

Rolie left and went back to "the Santana sound" with Abraxas Pool.

So?
How many times has Neal went careening off in different musical directions?
What is your point?

He is currently touring playing the Santana style music and nothing he wrote while in Journey, which should at least cause one to question how long he would have stayed in Journey playing pop/rock and the potential longevity of that lineup. See how that works?

Rolie has included Journey songs in his live sets on many occasions. Try again.
Also, by your own arbitrarily applied standard, Perry should never have returned to the fold.
Considering that he has yet to return to the public spotlight since TBF, this would seem to indicate he would not be sticking with Journey for the long haul.

Again, I am responding to your statement that you in fact claimed to know better when you first heard of SA's hiring. And there is a difference between one's level of hearing and their "ear" for music. I will take the "ear" of one of the greatest rock guitarists in the world, who plays music "by ear" and has what HH referred to as "dog hearing" - the ability to catch every note SA sang on stage while standing in front of said refrigerator-sized amplifiers - over yours!

Anyone familiar with Augeri’s non-Journey work, including Augeri himself, would tell you this was going to be a tough row to hoe.
And it was.
If you think Neal is infallible, especially when it comes to business decisions, you have not been paying attention.

Yes, I am aware that they had 3 songs that charted. But I believe you and I have a different definition of what constitutes a "hit" and I do not really consider charting for a week or two and then never hearing the song on the radio again to be a level of success that would define either as "hitmakers".

Neal and Jon never had commercial success on their own.
By that standard, perhaps they show throw their own asses out of the band, right?
Remind me, how many hits again did Arnel, Jeff, and SA score?
This is just another random yardstick you’ve whipped out to confirm your own biases.

You're entitled to your opinion, but in 1996 I would have taken the potential of a Perry-led Journey over the potential of a Rolie/Chalfant lineup which was the point of my original post. When Perry reunited with Journey, they wrote TBF in a matter of weeks, so his solo songwriting versus what he helps write while with Cain and Schon are two completely different things and does not support your point.

My only point is, Chalfant and Rolie are great talents, with ties to Journey, and would’ve been tremendous assets to the band.
Besides, Herbie wanted Chalfant in even prior to TBF.
I think its Journey’s loss – period.

You left off the previous sentence when you quoted this.

No, I didn’t.
I responded to the first part of your sentence, and even added an ellipsis (…) to show the quote was not finished.
I then tackled the remaining second part. I have not quoted you out of context.
Stop bitching.

A song being a "radio friendly hit" or just simply "radio friendly" is not the same thing and I specified "while he was with Journey" which is important, as in my original post I stated quite clearly that Rolie is a very talented singer and musician….

I hear “Feeling that Way” and “Anytime” on classic rock stations frequently.
To be sure, they’re not played with the same regularity as DSB or SW, but they’re there.

…but I questioned what he would contribute to Journey in terms of moving their sound forward. He keeps going back to his roots, which is what Journey sought to get away from musically with Cain.

Cain changed the band’s sound, it goes without saying, because he is a different musician.
I don’t think they actively ran away from their sound.
The concerted effort to go more commercial was already in progress.
As for how Rolie and Chalfant would “move their sound forward”, I think you’re interest in this bogus.
TBF is hardly what I call cutting edge.
In fact, Revelation tracks like “What I Needed” and “Like a Sunshower” are decidedly vintage Infinity-era throwbacks.
So where is your outrage?

My only mention of Arnel was that Journey is doing very well with him as lead singer. Neal's choosing him over KC in 2007 simply supports the notion that many here are overestimating the potential of the Rolie/Chalfant lineup.

Right.
Because a few Journey covers on YouTube clearly surpasses two lifetimes of original work in the genre, ranging from Santana to Journey to The Storm to Two Fires.
You seem to place your faith in Neal as some omnipotent being who can do no wrong.
Who are you kidding?
This band has fucked up repeatedly.

It is quite evident that I consider Rolie to be a great talent - I didn't spend $100 on a ticket 7 months ago to hear him in concert because I don't like his music. And I complimented KC's talent as a vocalist! Did you miss that part too?

I read it. I don’t buy it.
There’s a laser like focus on Steve Perry throughout your comments, even when not relevant, that tells me you are more interested in defending an idol, than talking rationally.

I'm not the one rambling - you misunderstood my initial post and attacked it, making erroneous assumptions and mixing up statements. I don't consider the Rolie/Chalfant lineup to be a slight against Perry, I merely said I believed its potential was overestimated and many others agreed. Other than the fact that you appear to be an idiot who can't follow a simple statement, that is all.

[Monker]

Have to remember too, that the main reason he contiunes with the Santana sound instead of Journey, is the main fact he can not sing like Steve Perry.

That is just not true. Gregg turned to this sound on Roots - before he toured solo. You don't think that he couldn't approach KC and get a Storm together TODAY? That is just not what he is interested in any longer.

When he has covered Journey songs on his solo tours, Kevin as been there, or he has brought a high pitched singer to do the job for those songs. So why should he write like Journey or sing like them, when he can not sound like Perry.

Explain to me why he doesn't write songs like are on his first two solo albums where he does not sound anything like Santana or Journey.

When he wanted to do the Journey type of song, he did! And did it better with his and Kevin's 2 Storm cds, than Journey did with ROR and TBF.

That is true...

[The_Noble_Cause]

I'm not the one rambling - you misunderstood my initial post and attacked it, making erroneous assumptions and mixing up statements.

Sorry.
Look around.
You’re a lone voice in the wilderness on this one.
Many longtime fans in this thread have expressed their appreciation for Chalfant and Rolie’s talents.
If I ever used a partial quote of yours’ rather than a full block paragraph, it was for the purpose of saving Andrew bandwidth and nothing more.
You were not taken out of context, or attacked.
Stop playing the refs, and stand by your utterly shitty excuse for an argument.

I don't consider the Rolie/Chalfant lineup to be a slight against Perry, I merely said I believed its potential was overestimated and many others agreed.

No, you relentlessly compared the Rolie/Chalfant lineup to the TBF-Perry writing sessions.
You also apparently read the entrails of a small animal and decided that the criteria for being in Journey is based on record sales.
A random measuring stick of which NONE of the three Perry-replacements would ever meet.
So the whole argument is just bogus

[Rolie] would have been great back in Journey, but I'm not sure what he would have added in terms of moving their sound forward or that he would have stayed with their heavy touring.

'Megaforce' was a very long time ago, so I'm curious to know what [Chalfant] would have added to the overall songwriting.

Neal is already one of the most important parts of the Journey hitmaking team - the question is what Rolie or Chalfant bring to the songwriting. What exactly is it that you expect them to contribute that would be better than what resulted with TBF?

I'm saying I have not seen anything that demonstrates that their songwriting potential would have outshone what was produced with SP in Trial By Fire.

I questioned what they could have contributed to the songwriting that was greater than what would have been contributed by Steve Perry

…but I questioned what [Chalfant and Rolie] would contribute to Journey in terms of moving their sound forward.

[Abitaman]

Have to remember too, that the main reason he contiunes with the Santana sound instead of Journey, is the main fact he can not sing like Steve Perry.

That is just not true. Gregg turned to this sound on Roots - before he toured solo. You don't think that he couldn't approach KC and get a Storm together TODAY? That is just not what he is interested in any longer.
[quote]

Oh so he does sound like Steve Perry? Solo he sounds like Steve Perry? That is what I am talking about. I have heard just about everthing Greg has done and have a few boots of him, and while his solo isn't either it is closer to Santana than to Journey.
Yeah I think he could get back in the Storm, but he is happier doing his thing.

[Abitaman]

When he has covered Journey songs on his solo tours, Kevin as been there, or he has brought a high pitched singer to do the job for those songs. So why should he write like Journey or sing like them, when he can not sound like Perry.

Explain to me why he doesn't write songs like are on his first two solo albums where he does not sound anything like Santana or Journey.

Sorry I just don't get your question here, he doesn't sound like San of jrny, so his cds are like his own?