This is why Journey only plays the Dirty Dozen

[Jeremey]

So, you are thinking Journey and Journey's management are going to take the time to book ten < 1000 seat venues and take hardly any profit just to satisfy a few vocal internet fans and maybe others who want something else besides a GH concert?

LOL - I find that thought absolutely hillarious.

Journey has done nothing the past five years or so except to go where the money is. They are not going to line their pockets with cotton when they can line them with gold instead.

Nope, I didn't say I thought Journey or their management would do either of those things. I just said that something like that would satisfy fans of the deeper cuts. Never in a million years do I think something like that would actually happen.

[brandonx76]

Disaster?? Hardly - they played this song very well...Haven't heard this in awhile, reminds me of a Seal song...shows another side of the band...can't please them all, especially if you're trash

[Arianddu]

So, you are thinking Journey and Journey's management are going to take the time to book ten < 1000 seat venues and take hardly any profit just to satisfy a few vocal internet fans and maybe others who want something else besides a GH concert?

I'd hope that they'd do it because they are musicians who love the music and would like the chance to be able to express that side with an appreciative audience; sadly, that doesn't seem to be a motivator for Journey any more.

[Matthew]

Holy Shit.

That song is even WORSE live.

It disgraced my ears.

Exactly. On record that's always been a second-rate song - but this was the worst performance I've ever heard Journey give full-stop.

There are plenty of other songs outside the Dirty Dozen that would get a good crowd response - especially if they were performed with some real belief - so this travesty of the Journey name doesn't prove anything....except the shortcomings of that particular line-up.

[Matthew]

Maybe they should jam on a couple of the deeper cuts as an encore, letting the casual fans have the dirty dozen but then throwing in a couple jewels at the end. At this point the fans have gotten what they came to see and who cares if some of them get up and leave.

But when I saw them last year they played four unknown tracks off the new album at various points in the concert and they all went down extremely well. And from what I've read they went down well at the US shows too. The success of a live Journey show isn't entirely down to the familiarity of the songs.

[Monker]

So, you are thinking Journey and Journey's management are going to take the time to book ten < 1000 seat venues and take hardly any profit just to satisfy a few vocal internet fans and maybe others who want something else besides a GH concert?

LOL - I find that thought absolutely hillarious.

Journey has done nothing the past five years or so except to go where the money is. They are not going to line their pockets with cotton when they can line them with gold instead.

Nope, I didn't say I thought Journey or their management would do either of those things. I just said that something like that would satisfy fans of the deeper cuts. Never in a million years do I think something like that would actually happen.

Well, that makes more sense to me.

[Monker]

Holy Shit.

That song is even WORSE live.

It disgraced my ears.

Exactly. On record that's always been a second-rate song - but this was the worst performance I've ever heard Journey give full-stop.

There are plenty of other songs outside the Dirty Dozen that would get a good crowd response - especially if they were performed with some real belief - so this travesty of the Journey name doesn't prove anything....except the shortcomings of that particular line-up.

Not true...the comments were flying BEFORE THE SONG HAD EVEN STARTED. At that point those people were tired of hearing songs they didn't know. ANY obscure or new song being announced would have received the same reaction.

[Monker]

Maybe they should jam on a couple of the deeper cuts as an encore, letting the casual fans have the dirty dozen but then throwing in a couple jewels at the end. At this point the fans have gotten what they came to see and who cares if some of them get up and leave.

But when I saw them last year they played four unknown tracks off the new album at various points in the concert and they all went down extremely well. And from what I've read they went down well at the US shows too. The success of a live Journey show isn't entirely down to the familiarity of the songs.

Yeah, but they didn't play an entire set of pre-Perry stuff in addition to 4-5 'new' songs in a set. The crowd was burned out from the music they didn't know.

[Matthew]

Holy Shit.

That song is even WORSE live.

It disgraced my ears.

Exactly. On record that's always been a second-rate song - but this was the worst performance I've ever heard Journey give full-stop.

There are plenty of other songs outside the Dirty Dozen that would get a good crowd response - especially if they were performed with some real belief - so this travesty of the Journey name doesn't prove anything....except the shortcomings of that particular line-up.

Not true...the comments were flying BEFORE THE SONG HAD EVEN STARTED. At that point those people were tired of hearing songs they didn't know. ANY obscure or new song being announced would have received the same reaction.

Or they were simply tired and irritated by the insipid show on offer...

[Matthew]

Maybe they should jam on a couple of the deeper cuts as an encore, letting the casual fans have the dirty dozen but then throwing in a couple jewels at the end. At this point the fans have gotten what they came to see and who cares if some of them get up and leave.

But when I saw them last year they played four unknown tracks off the new album at various points in the concert and they all went down extremely well. And from what I've read they went down well at the US shows too. The success of a live Journey show isn't entirely down to the familiarity of the songs.

Yeah, but they didn't play an entire set of pre-Perry stuff in addition to 4-5 'new' songs in a set. The crowd was burned out from the music they didn't know.

Oh..don't even bring the pre-Perry stuff into it. Only about three members of the die-hard fanbase like THOSE songs. (And despite this... Journey still played one of those songs when they played here with JSS.) I'm talking about album tracks from any album from the Perry era or even singles which aren't played that often, like "I'll Be Alright Without You".

Also - you can put the word 'new' in ironic quote marks...but they DID play four or five songs from Revelation which had only just been released. Although the crowd wasn't familiar at all with the material, the quality of the song-writing (at least in relation to much of the dirge from the Augeri era) and the belief and enthusiasm of the performance won them over.

[Eric]

What a load of horse shit. This shows you that Journey doesn't really have a connected, true fanbase. They have shallow listeners, who are content with the same old shit night after night. There is plenty of blame to go around here, one being Butterfly is a terrible excuse for a song, and 2, if the band had better mid/deep cut songs, people wouldn't clamour for the fucking dozen hits every night. You can't tell me a true musician wants to play the same crap every night. You can't tell me Schon is content belting out the same fucking chords to AWYWI, DSB and WITS nightly- how boring. This shows that they don't give a shit about the "legacy" and they don't really consider themselves a serious band at this time. To abandon deep cuts in favor of the same shit nightly to me screams sell outs. Screw those shallow wine spritzer fans wanting to "play(hear) something good." A real fan understands what a real musician does, and that is challenge himself with new stuff to keep it fresh. I for one don't understand how many of you here can remain fans of a band that plays the same exact set list they played 10 years ago. Just bewildering.

They don't have good deep cut songs???????? Edge of the Blade, MotherFather, Keep on Runnin', City of the Angels, Just the Same Way, Precious Times to name a few in 5 seconds.

Exact same setlist? It differs by a good 35%-40%. As much if not more than most bands.

[Eric]

They are not a band that has any progressive stance in either their music, or their future...they are a band that is looking back and reliving past success.

Journey has, including bonus tracks, etc.... nearly FIFTY new songs this decade alone. They are scheduled to go back into studio this fall on the heals of a very successful album released just last year. You want to hate them now, so you do Monker. You are bitter and negative.

[Matthew]

Exact same setlist? It differs by a good 35%-40%. As much if not more than most bands.

I think that's exaggerating a bit, Eric. The set-lists are more conservative than that...

Agree though that this not due to a scarcity of great material. The band's hack mentality is the problem.

[kgdjpubs]

I think if the band did a little ten date tour at some smaller venues in the off season and named it "B Sides Live" or something and just did deep cuts, with 4-6 of the giant hits added in, it would satisfy a lot of the fan base that wants to hear the deeper cuts. The summer tours are playing to the lowest common denominator, and people definitely only want familiarity at those shows.

The precedent on how to do this successfully has already been established. British rock band Thunder always did a small show just before Christmas each year in a small venue. A bunch of studio cuts, some random covers, maybe 1-2 "known songs", and a Christmas song to end the show. Sometimes it was acoustic. Sometimes it was electric. Sometimes it was both. The audio was recorded and sold in 2 versions on the website--both with different tracklists. The ticket holders got one version, and anyone could buy the other one. The show was always sold out in advance. One show a year to reward the diehards with songs that just don't get played on the regular tour.

Now, Thunder was on their own label, so they had more freedom than some bands might have, but the Christmas Show was always a big success. This shouldn't be that hard, as the majority of the "big stage production" wouldn't be needed. Do a local show in the SF bay area so you don't have massive moving expenses.

Not saying it would ever happen, but it CAN be done.

[Matthew]

I think if the band did a little ten date tour at some smaller venues in the off season and named it "B Sides Live" or something and just did deep cuts, with 4-6 of the giant hits added in, it would satisfy a lot of the fan base that wants to hear the deeper cuts. The summer tours are playing to the lowest common denominator, and people definitely only want familiarity at those shows.

The precedent on how to do this successfully has already been established. British rock band Thunder always did a small show just before Christmas each year in a small venue. A bunch of studio cuts, some random covers, maybe 1-2 "known songs", and a Christmas song to end the show. Sometimes it was acoustic. Sometimes it was electric. Sometimes it was both. The audio was recorded and sold in 2 versions on the website--both with different tracklists. The ticket holders got one version, and anyone could buy the other one. The show was always sold out in advance. One show a year to reward the diehards with songs that just don't get played on the regular tour.

Now, Thunder was on their own label, so they had more freedom than some bands might have, but the Christmas Show was always a big success. This shouldn't be that hard, as the majority of the "big stage production" wouldn't be needed. Do a local show in the SF bay area so you don't have massive moving expenses.

Not saying it would ever happen, but it CAN be done.

With respect...Thunder don't have the temptation of big shows being offered to them though, do they?

[Ehwmatt]

I think if the band did a little ten date tour at some smaller venues in the off season and named it "B Sides Live" or something and just did deep cuts, with 4-6 of the giant hits added in, it would satisfy a lot of the fan base that wants to hear the deeper cuts. The summer tours are playing to the lowest common denominator, and people definitely only want familiarity at those shows.

The precedent on how to do this successfully has already been established. British rock band Thunder always did a small show just before Christmas each year in a small venue. A bunch of studio cuts, some random covers, maybe 1-2 "known songs", and a Christmas song to end the show. Sometimes it was acoustic. Sometimes it was electric. Sometimes it was both. The audio was recorded and sold in 2 versions on the website--both with different tracklists. The ticket holders got one version, and anyone could buy the other one. The show was always sold out in advance. One show a year to reward the diehards with songs that just don't get played on the regular tour.

Now, Thunder was on their own label, so they had more freedom than some bands might have, but the Christmas Show was always a big success. This shouldn't be that hard, as the majority of the "big stage production" wouldn't be needed. Do a local show in the SF bay area so you don't have massive moving expenses.

Not saying it would ever happen, but it CAN be done.

Even as a "once off" for a DVD filming, this type of thing would be great. I'm still bitter we never got the supposed Generations DVD - whatever else was going on there, I'd still watch it just to see Neal go crazy on that old stuff and hear some of those deep cuts.

[Eric]

Exact same setlist? It differs by a good 35%-40%. As much if not more than most bands.

I think that's exaggerating a bit, Eric. The set-lists are more conservative than that...

Agree though that this not due to a scarcity of great material. The band's hack mentality is the problem.

Does anyone have some setlists from each year?

Example:
Off the top of my head, the Arrival dates I attended each had 3 Arrival songs that are no longer played...and the Revelation dates have had 3 songs off that album. Thats 3 songs. I think Send her My Love, Still They Ride and Raza Del Sol were all played on both Arrival dates I saw. The last 2 years Edge of the Blade, Chain Reaction and Mother/Father I've seen. Thats a total of 6 now. Additionally, I didn't get Open Arms or Only the Young on the Arrival tour....but did hear When You Love a Woman and Message of Love. Thats up to 8 different songs. I also saw Feeling that way/Anytime in 2001, and Keep on Runnin' last year. So..thats 9. If a typical setlist is 20 songs then thats 45% (9/20).

I think they've done okay. They did go away for 12 years and let their GH become bigger then them. They mix it up some, not as much as I'd like, but they do okay.

[Matthew]

Exact same setlist? It differs by a good 35%-40%. As much if not more than most bands.

I think that's exaggerating a bit, Eric. The set-lists are more conservative than that...

Agree though that this not due to a scarcity of great material. The band's hack mentality is the problem.

Does anyone have some setlists from each year?

Example:
Off the top of my head, the Arrival dates I attended each had 3 Arrival songs that are no longer played...and the Revelation dates have had 3 songs off that album. Thats 3 songs. I think Send her My Love, Still They Ride and Raza Del Sol were all played on both Arrival dates I saw. The last 2 years Edge of the Blade, Chain Reaction and Mother/Father I've seen. Thats a total of 6 now. Additionally, I didn't get Open Arms or Only the Young on the Arrival tour....but did hear When You Love a Woman and Message of Love. Thats up to 8 different songs. I also saw Feeling that way/Anytime in 2001, and Keep on Runnin' last year. So..thats 9. If a typical setlist is 20 songs then thats 45% (9/20).

I think they've done okay. They did go away for 12 years and let their GH become bigger then them. They mix it up some, not as much as I'd like, but they do okay.

It's true that Journey did mix it up at certain points during the Augeri years. I mean...they even played Happy To Give. So if we compared set-lists from now and - say - five years ago there might well be that kind of difference.

I wonder though how different the set-lists are when you look at just the tours since 2006. Maybe it's still 40%...but somehow it feels more like 20%...and the new songs account for most of that. Maybe this feeling simply isn't backed up by the facts though.

Of course the other issue is the arrangements. A number of veteran bands - CSN being the most recent I've seen - try to experiment with new ways to play the songs. I think Journey could definitely allow themselves more freedom in this respect.

[WalrusOct9]

I think if the band did a little ten date tour at some smaller venues in the off season and named it "B Sides Live" or something and just did deep cuts, with 4-6 of the giant hits added in, it would satisfy a lot of the fan base that wants to hear the deeper cuts. The summer tours are playing to the lowest common denominator, and people definitely only want familiarity at those shows.

I've been thinking that for years, about a lot of bands....Journey, Billy Joel, etc...but that would make them less money, so they'll never do it.


On the flipside, Springsteen still fills arenas playing whatever the fuck he wants (or whatever the audience wants, in some cases)....it's possible, you just have to cultivate that kind of a fan base over many years, I suppose.

[Jana]

Maybe they should jam on a couple of the deeper cuts as an encore, letting the casual fans have the dirty dozen but then throwing in a couple jewels at the end. At this point the fans have gotten what they came to see and who cares if some of them get up and leave.

But when I saw them last year they played four unknown tracks off the new album at various points in the concert and they all went down extremely well. And from what I've read they went down well at the US shows too. The success of a live Journey show isn't entirely down to the familiarity of the songs.

Same here. I think it was three here last year. But people seemed to enjoy the songs. Obviously, not the same reception as Open Arms or DSB or SW, of course not, but all around me people, even though most it seemed not familiar with the songs, appeared to be enjoying the performance by the band and paying attention, not bored.

[steveo777]

I think there are several good songs from ROR. I don't understand why they are not played. There are four for sure that I'm sure the fans know and love. WCTNGOF, GCHI, HTG and IBAWY are four that come to mind. The challenge is what do you take out of the set if you put those in. OA, Faithfully, AATY?

I read somewhere that Neal really has a dislike for ROR. I wonder if it's not the music, but all the turmoil that went on at the time, leaving him with a bad taste and causing those songs to not be played more. Other thoughts are I've never heard Place In You Heart or Let It Take You Back played by this lineup, although both songs were bonus tracks on export CDs.

[KDOUBLEU]

There were many who say "Why doesn't Journey just JAM OUT, and play a setlist for the older, true fans?" Or "Screw the dirty dozen, they should play songs from the past era's and new era.."

Well, this is why, and it was said before. You think a band wants to hear this shit from the audience?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6xRw52GAeE&NR=1

I thought they sounded like Triumph.

[Jeremey]

I think there are several good songs from ROR. I don't understand why they are not played. There are four for sure that I'm sure the fans know and love. WCTNGOF, GCHI, HTG and IBAWY are four that come to mind. The challenge is what do you take out of the set if you put those in. OA, Faithfully, AATY?

I read somewhere that Neal really has a dislike for ROR. I wonder if it's not the music, but all the turmoil that went on at the time, leaving him with a bad taste and causing those songs to not be played more. Other thoughts are I've never heard Place In You Heart or Let It Take You Back played by this lineup, although both songs were bonus tracks on export CDs.

In fairness I thinks it's just GCHI Neal hates and I don't know why...but I think you hit the nail on the head that the issue seems to be figuring out what songs to cut to make room for those tunes. If you add a ballad you ebtter cut a ballad and same goes for rockers. You can't just start cutting greatest hits willy-nippy. And I don't mean nippy. It's the dumb iPhone autofill.

[KDOUBLEU]

I think there are several good songs from ROR. I don't understand why they are not played. There are four for sure that I'm sure the fans know and love. WCTNGOF, GCHI, HTG and IBAWY are four that come to mind. The challenge is what do you take out of the set if you put those in. OA, Faithfully, AATY?

I read somewhere that Neal really has a dislike for ROR. I wonder if it's not the music, but all the turmoil that went on at the time, leaving him with a bad taste and causing those songs to not be played more. Other thoughts are I've never heard Place In You Heart or Let It Take You Back played by this lineup, although both songs were bonus tracks on export CDs.

In fairness I thinks it's just GCHI Neal hates and I don't know why...but I think you hit the nail on the head that the issue seems to be figuring out what songs to cut to make room for those tunes. If you add a ballad you ebtter cut a ballad and same goes for rockers. You can't just start cutting greatest hits willy-nippy. And I don't mean nippy. It's the dumb iPhone autofill.

Willy Nippy Stupid Phones!

[Eric]

Of course the other issue is the arrangements. A number of veteran bands - CSN being the most recent I've seen - try to experiment with new ways to play the songs. I think Journey could definitely allow themselves more freedom in this respect.

They are though this summer....Anyway you Want it, Separate Ways, Wheel in the Sky and the 2001 DVD DSB thing.

[Matthew]

Of course the other issue is the arrangements. A number of veteran bands - CSN being the most recent I've seen - try to experiment with new ways to play the songs. I think Journey could definitely allow themselves more freedom in this respect.

They are though this summer....Anyway you Want it, Separate Ways, Wheel in the Sky and the 2001 DVD DSB thing.

What's the 2001 DVD DSB thing? I've never been about to watch more than two consecutive minutes of that show...

[Saint John]

Here's my analysis and I think it's very accurate. Journey has a monstrous casual following in the states. The vast majority of these people only do one or, maybe, two shows per year. Because of that, there would be a tremendous backlash at a show if they didn't play The Dirty Dozen. They simply have to play the dozen or so hits that are the most popular songs. What people have to realize is that although there is seemingly very little deviation from the setlist there is a new crowd hearing those very similar setlists each show and that forces Journey to stick to a method that hasn't failed them in over 30 years! You want "deep cuts"? Buy a straight razor.

[Rick]

Here's my analysis and I think it's very accurate. Journey has a monstrous casual following in the states. The vast majority of these people only do one or, maybe, two shows per year. Because of that, there would be a tremendous backlash at a show if they didn't play The Dirty Dozen. They simply have to play the dozen or so hits that are the most popular songs. What people have to realize is that although there is seemingly very little deviation from the setlist there is a new crowd hearing those very similar setlists each show and that forces Journey to stick to a method that hasn't failed them in over 30 years! You want "deep cuts"? Buy a straight razor.

[Eric]

Of course the other issue is the arrangements. A number of veteran bands - CSN being the most recent I've seen - try to experiment with new ways to play the songs. I think Journey could definitely allow themselves more freedom in this respect.

They are though this summer....Anyway you Want it, Separate Ways, Wheel in the Sky and the 2001 DVD DSB thing.

What's the 2001 DVD DSB thing? I've never been about to watch more than two consecutive minutes of that show...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzzUS0E8DCc
(Go to about 4:10)

[Don]

Of course the other issue is the arrangements. A number of veteran bands - CSN being the most recent I've seen - try to experiment with new ways to play the songs. I think Journey could definitely allow themselves more freedom in this respect.

They are though this summer....Anyway you Want it, Separate Ways, Wheel in the Sky and the 2001 DVD DSB thing.

What's the 2001 DVD DSB thing? I've never been about to watch more than two consecutive minutes of that show...

Where they do a little chant near the end of the song repeating Don't Stop" over and over again, with a shout out to the troops or something along those lines. It's original intention may have had some kind of patriotic undertones, I don't know why they brought it back. Probably to eat up more clock without having to add more songs to the setlist.
If you've seen them doing it on the Download video then you don't have to watch the Arrival version. It's a carbon copy.