This is why Journey only plays the Dirty Dozen

[ScarabGator]

oh fuck, not augeris best performance...

[marco17]

I believe this is from the Irvine show and he sounded pretty rough most of the show. There were a couple lipped tracks mixed in. I always wondered how they got away with him sounding great on the lipped songs then sounded like this on others, and nobody caught on....

[squirt1]

I believe Journey lost 1/3 of their writing power w Perry leaving. They MUST play the hits to survive because that music has such a history. There is evidently little demand for anything written post 1998 or Neal & Jon would play it in a minute.

[kgdjpubs]

I think if the band did a little ten date tour at some smaller venues in the off season and named it "B Sides Live" or something and just did deep cuts, with 4-6 of the giant hits added in, it would satisfy a lot of the fan base that wants to hear the deeper cuts. The summer tours are playing to the lowest common denominator, and people definitely only want familiarity at those shows.

The precedent on how to do this successfully has already been established. British rock band Thunder always did a small show just before Christmas each year in a small venue. A bunch of studio cuts, some random covers, maybe 1-2 "known songs", and a Christmas song to end the show. Sometimes it was acoustic. Sometimes it was electric. Sometimes it was both. The audio was recorded and sold in 2 versions on the website--both with different tracklists. The ticket holders got one version, and anyone could buy the other one. The show was always sold out in advance. One show a year to reward the diehards with songs that just don't get played on the regular tour.

Now, Thunder was on their own label, so they had more freedom than some bands might have, but the Christmas Show was always a big success. This shouldn't be that hard, as the majority of the "big stage production" wouldn't be needed. Do a local show in the SF bay area so you don't have massive moving expenses.

Not saying it would ever happen, but it CAN be done.

With respect...Thunder don't have the temptation of big shows being offered to them though, do they?

Well, they were offered pretty high bills on stuff like Monsters of Rock festival in the UK. Due to timing and other factors, they never really broke out of Britain and Japan, but managed to maintain a good following both of those places. Judging by their tour dates, they seemed to sustain a 20-date tour across the UK every year filling 5-10k venues (basically the same places Journey played when they went over there). They weren't filling Wembley and stuff by themselves, but they DID play those venues. Apparently, they were quite in demand for the "big shows".

[Jubilee]

I believe Journey lost 1/3 of their writing power w Perry leaving. They MUST play the hits to survive because that music has such a history. There is evidently little demand for anything written post 1998 or Neal & Jon would play it in a minute.

I agree. Also, IMHO, there's little demand for anything written post 1998 because nothing beyond that ever really got any airplay and therefore has not become a part of Journey's history. People, unless they're Journey die-hards, or "true fans", simply haven't had the opportunity to become familiar with anything post-Perry. You can't fault so-called "casual fans" for being befuddled at anything other than the DD, as far as they know, that's all there is.

[kgdjpubs]

I believe Journey lost 1/3 of their writing power w Perry leaving. They MUST play the hits to survive because that music has such a history. There is evidently little demand for anything written post 1998 or Neal & Jon would play it in a minute.

I don't think writing power has all that much to do with it. You can write the greatest song ever, and without airplay, nobody is going to hear it. This isn't just a "Journey problem". Pick your big band with a large back catalogue and famous hits, and you get the same thing. The majority of people who go to a concert are NOT the ones that have all the albums and know them all by heart. Your average concert goer likes songs they heard on radio/tv, and has never heard and doesn't care about the rest of the catalogue. Go to a Def Leppard concert, you get pretty much the same setlist every time. Bon Jovi will play about 90% hits also. Bon Jovi is lucky in the fact that they are still getting airplay, but once you get away from the hits into the deep album cuts, good luck at seeing it performed live after the tour for X album is done.

Once you break into large appeal beyond the dedicated hardcore fanbase, you pretty much have to cater to that majority--and they want the hits. Otherwise, you play some deep album cut and the audience gets this Twilight Zone trance. I've even seen it happen with Matchbox 20. Take the opposite version, I went to an Elton John concert where he refused to play Crocodile Rock. 90% of the audience went away very angry and hostile towards him ("I can't BELIEVE he didn't play that song....").

Sure, there are some bands that play very interesting setlists and get away with them on a regular basis. Springsteen is one, Jimmy Barnes is another. Barnes has been known to change his setlist every month, and out of 23-28 songs a night, you can pick about 8-10 songs that will be played and anything else is up in the air. With a large catalogue of solo material, 2-4 songs a show taken from a large songlist from when he was with Cold Chisel (who were very popular), and the odd cover thrown in every now and then, you never know what is going to be played. You may get 3 songs from an album that didn't even sell all that well on a particular night. Recently, the first 8 songs of the show were all new material--that's 40 minutes straight of new material. On another tour, he responded to a suggestion on the forum, and played a different setlist with a "new song" (meaning one not yet played that tour) every night for a 15-show European tour. His attendance doesn't seem to be suffering.

So, how can some bands play variable setlists, and others play a rather static one? I think a lot of it has to do with some amount of airplay so that you are getting new fans. Some of it has to do with the band members being willing to mix things up a bit. Some of it has to do with the amount of time you are allotted to play. If you have a 2hr concert, you can throw a lot of oddballs and deep album cuts in while still being able to play the hits to appease the vocal majority. If you are playing 70-90 minutes, your choices of what to play diminish somewhat.

Give Journey it's credit. They HAVE mixed up the setlist a lot more than some bands do, especially when you get a 2hr concert. Both the 2003-2004 tours when they went off on their own had quite a bit of rarities in there, and the Generations tour was unheard of for most bands to play that kind of setlist. The longer Arnel shows and the Graspop show are mixing things up a bit also. Compare that to REO Speedwagon who have a fairly static setlist, or Def Leppard or Styx or Night Ranger. You might get a new song or two, and that's about it. It may not be what the diehards want, but from a performance standpoint, Journey is considerably more variable than most.

[Monker]

They are not a band that has any progressive stance in either their music, or their future...they are a band that is looking back and reliving past success.

Journey has, including bonus tracks, etc.... nearly FIFTY new songs this decade alone. They are scheduled to go back into studio this fall on the heals of a very successful album released just last year. You want to hate them now, so you do Monker. You are bitter and negative.

No, I don't hate them and I'm not bitter...I just don't care so much. Revisiting their 'legacy sound' from the 80's is very boring to me. The fifty songs from 'this decade alone' are hardly even performed...and the Augeri years are very much irrelevant because of their return to the 'legacy sound'.

[Don]

If Journey does play something pre-Captured and it sounds terrible because Pineda doesn't have the range for it, are you guys going to give the band a free pass because they mixed up the setlist or would you rather they not play classic songs if they can't really do justice to them anymore?

[steveo777]

They played Winds of March tonight

[Don]

They played Winds of March tonight

Who sang it? JSS tried it a few years ago but much like Patiently, it fits Deen's natural range better than any of the post Perry singers.

[Monker]

Oh..don't even bring the pre-Perry stuff into it.

I am staying on topic...I'm fairly certain that performing the pre-Perry set is one of the reason the crowd in this video was begging for familiar songs. Having a few songs from a new album is a bit easier to digest when they are not surriounded by a bunch of other obscure songs.

Also - you can put the word 'new' in ironic quote marks...but they DID play four or five songs from Revelation which had only just been released. Although the crowd wasn't familiar at all with the material, the quality of the song-writing (at least in relation to much of the dirge from the Augeri era) and the belief and enthusiasm of the performance won them over.

So what? They did the same thing with Arrival...playing up to five from songs from it in a show...In fact, they performed the entire Arrival album on tour..except for one song. So, I guess by your logic above, Arrival was just as good as Revelation. The tours that followed did not have four or five Arrival songs...despite the whining internet fans. It seems they cut back on this this tour as well.

They return to the hits cuz that is what the crowd pays for. An over abundance of unfamiliarity is what the crowd boos.

[Monker]

Geez, I suggested that years ago. Write an albums worth of songs. Instead of paying for a studio, perform it live. Then release it on DVD/CD. Very much like HSAS.

I think if the band did a little ten date tour at some smaller venues in the off season and named it "B Sides Live" or something and just did deep cuts, with 4-6 of the giant hits added in, it would satisfy a lot of the fan base that wants to hear the deeper cuts. The summer tours are playing to the lowest common denominator, and people definitely only want familiarity at those shows.

The precedent on how to do this successfully has already been established. British rock band Thunder always did a small show just before Christmas each year in a small venue. A bunch of studio cuts, some random covers, maybe 1-2 "known songs", and a Christmas song to end the show. Sometimes it was acoustic. Sometimes it was electric. Sometimes it was both. The audio was recorded and sold in 2 versions on the website--both with different tracklists. The ticket holders got one version, and anyone could buy the other one. The show was always sold out in advance. One show a year to reward the diehards with songs that just don't get played on the regular tour.

Now, Thunder was on their own label, so they had more freedom than some bands might have, but the Christmas Show was always a big success. This shouldn't be that hard, as the majority of the "big stage production" wouldn't be needed. Do a local show in the SF bay area so you don't have massive moving expenses.

Not saying it would ever happen, but it CAN be done.

Even as a "once off" for a DVD filming, this type of thing would be great. I'm still bitter we never got the supposed Generations DVD - whatever else was going on there, I'd still watch it just to see Neal go crazy on that old stuff and hear some of those deep cuts.

[steveo777]

They played Winds of March tonight

Who sang it? JSS tried it a few years ago but much like Patiently, it fits Deen's natural range better than any of the post Perry singers.

I haven't heard who sang it, but frankly I hope it was Deen. Ya never know, they had some time to rehearse. I'm skeptical about AP on that song, but he might be able to pull it off.

[Monker]

And, they also did the 'new arrangement' thing with Augeri...remember the accoustic set from Under the Radar?

Exact same setlist? It differs by a good 35%-40%. As much if not more than most bands.

I think that's exaggerating a bit, Eric. The set-lists are more conservative than that...

Agree though that this not due to a scarcity of great material. The band's hack mentality is the problem.

Does anyone have some setlists from each year?

Example:
Off the top of my head, the Arrival dates I attended each had 3 Arrival songs that are no longer played...and the Revelation dates have had 3 songs off that album. Thats 3 songs. I think Send her My Love, Still They Ride and Raza Del Sol were all played on both Arrival dates I saw. The last 2 years Edge of the Blade, Chain Reaction and Mother/Father I've seen. Thats a total of 6 now. Additionally, I didn't get Open Arms or Only the Young on the Arrival tour....but did hear When You Love a Woman and Message of Love. Thats up to 8 different songs. I also saw Feeling that way/Anytime in 2001, and Keep on Runnin' last year. So..thats 9. If a typical setlist is 20 songs then thats 45% (9/20).

I think they've done okay. They did go away for 12 years and let their GH become bigger then them. They mix it up some, not as much as I'd like, but they do okay.

It's true that Journey did mix it up at certain points during the Augeri years. I mean...they even played Happy To Give. So if we compared set-lists from now and - say - five years ago there might well be that kind of difference.

I wonder though how different the set-lists are when you look at just the tours since 2006. Maybe it's still 40%...but somehow it feels more like 20%...and the new songs account for most of that. Maybe this feeling simply isn't backed up by the facts though.

Of course the other issue is the arrangements. A number of veteran bands - CSN being the most recent I've seen - try to experiment with new ways to play the songs. I think Journey could definitely allow themselves more freedom in this respect.

[Matthew]

And, they also did the 'new arrangement' thing with Augeri...remember the accoustic set from Under the Radar?

I've seen an acoustic version of Liberty from around that time...and Schon was amazing on it.

But let's be honest...it's crumbs from the table. If we all put our minds to it we could think of perhaps ten examples of innovation and improvisation regarding the arrangements over the last decade.

Certainly in the last three shows I saw there were no surprises at all. The only moments which differed from a studio album playback was Cain's harmonica solo.

At least the JSS era brought a new hard rock edge to the old favourites - as opposed to the light Broadway vibe of the current line-up. Of all the non-classic line-ups this one - after it had time to settle in - was by far the most exciting and impressive, I reckon.

[steveo777]

How I missed this I have no idea. I did not realize they did Feeling that Way with Arnel, but last year they did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UAC0P5esmQ

[Matthew]

I am staying on topic...I'm fairly certain that performing the pre-Perry set is one of the reason the crowd in this video was begging for familiar songs. Having a few songs from a new album is a bit easier to digest when they are not surriounded by a bunch of other obscure songs.

But Monker...the heckling guy in the crowd didn't say: "Play something familiar..." He said: "Play something GOOD."

It's not just a question of familiarity. It's also about quality - and those pre-Perry songs haven't dated well. And the simple fact is...the consensus amongst the vast majority of fans is that the pre-Perry songs just aren't that great. They also belong to an entirely different genre of music as well.

Plus - judging from that clip - the performance was truly wretched that night.

And the same thing with Arrival...playing up to five from songs from it in a show...In fact, they performed the entire Arrival album on tour..except for one song. So, I guess by your logic above, Arrival was just as good as Revelation. The tours that followed did not have four or five Arrival songs...despite the whining internet fans. It seems they cut back on this this tour as well.

They return to the hits cuz that is what the crowd pays for. An over abundance of unfamiliarity is what the crowd boos.

Well of course they played more songs from Arrival on...the Arrival tour...than they did on subsequent tours.

Did those songs go on to be much-loved by the fanbase? Not especially because - again - they just weren't that great compared to the songs of the classic era. Will the new songs be played on future tours? Too early to tell but for now the fans are enjoying them (and I've seen this with my own eyes) so the Journey faithful are far more open-minded than you or the band credit them for.

[Ehwmatt]

I am staying on topic...I'm fairly certain that performing the pre-Perry set is one of the reason the crowd in this video was begging for familiar songs. Having a few songs from a new album is a bit easier to digest when they are not surriounded by a bunch of other obscure songs.

But Monker...the heckling guy in the crowd didn't say: "Play something familiar..." He said: "Play something GOOD."

You honestly think that drunken buffoon had any idea what the song Butterfly really was? He said it before a single note had been played. Although BF is definitely one of the worst songs out of the Augeri era, it really has nothing to do with quality in this instance.

It has to do with our collective attention span as Americans and probably even as humans worldwide... we want instant gratification, no experimenting, no risks. It's the same reason the album's dead, no one has the attention span or desire to listen to 12 tracks in the context of a cohesive whole any more, and it's a damn shame.

[Eric]

At least the JSS era brought a new hard rock edge to the old favourites - as opposed to the light Broadway vibe of the current line-up. Of all the non-classic line-ups this one - after it had time to settle in - was by far the most exciting and impressive, I reckon.

While I agree the JSS stint was the most exciting time post-Perry because of the different edge, the set Journey did at Graspop was probably the hardest rocking versions I've heard of the songs. Here's an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpPenP0x ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR-YcE_V ... re=related

This Graspop show is something I'd love on CD. Just like that boot Dean-O got in the fall of '06....I still listen to that.....you can feel the energy.

[Rockindeano]

At least the JSS era brought a new hard rock edge to the old favourites - as opposed to the light Broadway vibe of the current line-up. Of all the non-classic line-ups this one - after it had time to settle in - was by far the most exciting and impressive, I reckon.

While I agree the JSS stint was the most exciting time post-Perry because of the different edge, the set Journey did at Graspop was probably the hardest rocking versions I've heard of the songs. Here's an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpPenP0x ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR-YcE_V ... re=related

This Graspop show is something I'd love on CD. Just like that boot Dean-O got in the fall of '06....I still listen to that.....you can feel the energy.

Is that the one of Atlantic City? That was the easiest soundboard boot to get.

[Deb]

At least the JSS era brought a new hard rock edge to the old favourites - as opposed to the light Broadway vibe of the current line-up. Of all the non-classic line-ups this one - after it had time to settle in - was by far the most exciting and impressive, I reckon.

[Art Vandelay]

What a load of horse shit. This shows you that Journey doesn't really have a connected, true fanbase. They have shallow listeners, who are content with the same old shit night after night. There is plenty of blame to go around here, one being Butterfly is a terrible excuse for a song, and 2, if the band had better mid/deep cut songs, people wouldn't clamour for the fucking dozen hits every night. You can't tell me a true musician wants to play the same crap every night. You can't tell me Schon is content belting out the same fucking chords to AWYWI, DSB and WITS nightly- how boring. This shows that they don't give a shit about the "legacy" and they don't really consider themselves a serious band at this time. To abandon deep cuts in favor of the same shit nightly to me screams sell outs. Screw those shallow wine spritzer fans wanting to "play(hear) something good." A real fan understands what a real musician does, and that is challenge himself with new stuff to keep it fresh. I for one don't understand how many of you here can remain fans of a band that plays the same exact set list they played 10 years ago. Just bewildering.

Deano, I understand what you are saying, as I have full appreciation for artistic talent and expression. But I gotta disagree with you here, to a point. There are plenty of interviews from back in their heyday, even one from the Infinity tour (The Soundstage show), where the band says that with their new vocal direction (when Perry joined), they were at the point where they needed to play a specific setlist. Of course, back then they were able to mix it up a bit with new songs here and there. Journey is no longer a relevant top 10 act. Most of those crowds are going to hear the greatest hits because that's all they know and care about. And that is the material that they are associated with. Springsteen can get away with mixing it up because that's his style. His sound is also much more versatile than Journey. People go to singer/songwriter shows expecting to hear different stuff. And you're damn right that Journey probably aren't content with playing the same stuff every night. But the greatest hits is their main product. That's their identity. And unfortunately, that's show business.

[Rockindeano]

Deano, I understand what you are saying, as I have full appreciation for artistic talent and expression. But I gotta disagree with you here, to a point. There are plenty of interviews from back in their heyday, even one from the Infinity tour (The Soundstage show), where the band says that with their new vocal direction (when Perry joined), they were at the point where they needed to play a specific setlist. Of course, back then they were able to mix it up a bit with new songs here and there. Journey is no longer a relevant top 10 act. Most of those crowds are going to hear the greatest hits because that's all they know and care about. And that is the material that they are associated with. Springsteen can get away with mixing it up because that's his style. His sound is also much more versatile than Journey. People go to singer/songwriter shows expecting to hear different stuff. And you're damn right that Journey probably aren't content with playing the same stuff every night. But the greatest hits is their main product. That's their identity. And unfortunately, that's show business.

So they couldn't call an audible and instead of Lights, say go to A Better Life or maybe It's Never Too Late? Hell, throw in Suzanne or maybe even Raised on Radio? Man, just mix it up already! I personally think they can't pull it off on the fly.

[Art Vandelay]

Deano, I understand what you are saying, as I have full appreciation for artistic talent and expression. But I gotta disagree with you here, to a point. There are plenty of interviews from back in their heyday, even one from the Infinity tour (The Soundstage show), where the band says that with their new vocal direction (when Perry joined), they were at the point where they needed to play a specific setlist. Of course, back then they were able to mix it up a bit with new songs here and there. Journey is no longer a relevant top 10 act. Most of those crowds are going to hear the greatest hits because that's all they know and care about. And that is the material that they are associated with. Springsteen can get away with mixing it up because that's his style. His sound is also much more versatile than Journey. People go to singer/songwriter shows expecting to hear different stuff. And you're damn right that Journey probably aren't content with playing the same stuff every night. But the greatest hits is their main product. That's their identity. And unfortunately, that's show business.

So they couldn't call an audible and instead of Lights, say go to A Better Life or maybe It's Never Too Late? Hell, throw in Suzanne or maybe even Raised on Radio? Man, just mix it up already! I personally think they can't pull it off on the fly.

Again, I don't disagree with you. I would love to see that. Unfortunately, it seems to be all about product and identity at this point in their career.

[Arkansas]

So, you are thinking Journey and Journey's management are going to take the time to book ten < 1000 seat venues and take hardly any profit just to satisfy a few vocal internet fans and maybe others who want something else besides a GH concert?

I'd hope that they'd do it because they are musicians who love the music and would like the chance to be able to express that side with an appreciative audience; sadly, that doesn't seem to be a motivator for Journey any more.

And what about the promoter who pays the bills, rents the venue, advertises the show, etc? It's his job to fill the seats, not the band's. Do you think people will buy tickets to a "Journey, but not the Journey you know" tour? Even if people do show up, there'll be a riot and the promoter's insurer will cancel him.

How is Journey gonna be able to sell themselves to the promoters & venues, if they say they're not playing the DD?

And what about the tribute bands? Let's see them go out and jam on Kahoutek for an hour. What do you think will happen?


later~

[Monker]

But Monker...the heckling guy in the crowd didn't say: "Play something familiar..." He said: "Play something GOOD."

...and he said it before the song even started. And, that's schematics anyway.

It's not just a question of familiarity.

I don't think so. Those concerts had a huge number of obscure and new songs.

Well of course they played more songs from Arrival on...the Arrival tour...than they did on subsequent tours.

If you expect that...then don't make the argument that Revelation songs are especialy good...because there is really difference between the Relation and Arrival tours.

Not especially because - again - they just weren't that great compared to the songs of the classic era. Will the new songs be played on future tours? Too early to tell but for now the fans are enjoying them (and I've seen this with my own eyes) so the Journey faithful are far more open-minded than you or the band credit them for.

And, "Under the Radar" and "Main Event" both had "Higher Place", which the crowd went nuts for when I saw them. So, you can't make the argument to me that there is any difference between now and then. They are playing only a couple 'new' songs...and next tour I doubt there will be any Revelation songs. If you are lucky you will get some songs from a new album...if not, you will hear even more 'hits'.

[Eric]

At least the JSS era brought a new hard rock edge to the old favourites - as opposed to the light Broadway vibe of the current line-up. Of all the non-classic line-ups this one - after it had time to settle in - was by far the most exciting and impressive, I reckon.

While I agree the JSS stint was the most exciting time post-Perry because of the different edge, the set Journey did at Graspop was probably the hardest rocking versions I've heard of the songs. Here's an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpPenP0x ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR-YcE_V ... re=related

This Graspop show is something I'd love on CD. Just like that boot Dean-O got in the fall of '06....I still listen to that.....you can feel the energy.

Is that the one of Atlantic City? That was the easiest soundboard boot to get.

Such a great boot to have....

[Eric]

Journey didn't keep going after '86, so instead of songs continuing to get replaced every tour, they became legends on the GH album. Thats where Journey is different than an Aerosmith...they went away toooooo long. They'd have this problem even if Perry came back...their hits are monsters and incredibly well-known. They switch 4-8 songs out per tour on average - and thats about all they can do. I don't give them an A, but they are a C+ - B- for setlists. If Perry came back and they played 6 songs off TBF on a summer tour they'd be boo'ed.

And Dean-O you ask how someone can be a fan of them still...and I'll say the same thing as I have for 13 years....as long as they create new music I'll support them. Without the new disc on Revelation...I'm not even on this board anymore.

And no matter what Monker says...there are some excellent songs on Revelation.

[steveo777]

Journey didn't keep going after '86, so instead of songs continuing to get replaced every tour, they became legends on the GH album. Thats where Journey is different than an Aerosmith...they went away toooooo long. They'd have this problem even if Perry came back...their hits are monsters and incredibly well-known. They switch 4-8 songs out per tour on average - and thats about all they can do. I don't give them an A, but they are a C+ - B- for setlists. If Perry came back and they played 6 songs off TBF on a summer tour they'd be boo'ed.

And Dean-O you ask how someone can be a fan of them still...and I'll say the same thing as I have for 13 years....as long as they create new music I'll support them. Without the new disc on Revelation...I'm not even on this board anymore.

And no matter what Monker says...there are some excellent songs on Revelation.

Agreed! Now let's see if Neal means what he says and there will be more rockers on the 2010 album. If you have ever heard Arnel cover some rockers when he was with the Zoo, you'll understand why I think he will really shine on an album full of them. Unfortunately, anything new introduced is gonna be met with the same attitude all the non DD songs get met with. The fans that attend these concerts just don't care about anything else. On the rare occasion that they play some of the deeper cuts, they still hardly ever make it to YouTube....just the DD.

[Matthew]

And, "Under the Radar" and "Main Event" both had "Higher Place", which the crowd went nuts for when I saw them.

So why are you arguing that the fan base can't accept songs outside the DD?