This is why Journey only plays the Dirty Dozen

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Postby Matthew » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:11 am

kgdjpubs wrote:
squirt1 wrote:I believe Journey lost 1/3 of their writing power w Perry leaving. They MUST play the hits to survive because that music has such a history. There is evidently little demand for anything written post 1998 or Neal & Jon would play it in a minute.


I don't think writing power has all that much to do with it. You can write the greatest song ever, and without airplay, nobody is going to hear it. This isn't just a "Journey problem". Pick your big band with a large back catalogue and famous hits, and you get the same thing. The majority of people who go to a concert are NOT the ones that have all the albums and know them all by heart. Your average concert goer likes songs they heard on radio/tv, and has never heard and doesn't care about the rest of the catalogue. Go to a Def Leppard concert, you get pretty much the same setlist every time. Bon Jovi will play about 90% hits also. Bon Jovi is lucky in the fact that they are still getting airplay, but once you get away from the hits into the deep album cuts, good luck at seeing it performed live after the tour for X album is done.

Once you break into large appeal beyond the dedicated hardcore fanbase, you pretty much have to cater to that majority--and they want the hits. Otherwise, you play some deep album cut and the audience gets this Twilight Zone trance. I've even seen it happen with Matchbox 20. Take the opposite version, I went to an Elton John concert where he refused to play Crocodile Rock. 90% of the audience went away very angry and hostile towards him ("I can't BELIEVE he didn't play that song....").

Sure, there are some bands that play very interesting setlists and get away with them on a regular basis. Springsteen is one, Jimmy Barnes is another.


...and Metallica. They change their set-list by five songs every single show they play....and avoid playing many of the best known songs which received radio and MTV airplay. Are their fans really more imaginative, open-minded and knowledgeable than Journey fans are?
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Postby Don » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:19 am

Where is Journey's Hysteria, Back in Black, or Slippery When Wet? No where, their best selling package is their Greatest Hits. Where is that one killer album that everyone's got to have? It doesn't exist, just like their hardcore fan base.
Rolling Stone might actually have known what they were talking about when it comes to this band.
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Postby Matthew » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:20 am

Gunbot wrote:Where is Journey's Hysteria, Back in Black, or Slippery When Wet? No where,



Er...Escape? Probably one of the most famous albums ever released....
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Postby portland » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:22 am

Gunbot wrote:Where is Journey's Hysteria, Back in Black, or Slippery When Wet? No where, their best selling package is their Greatest Hits. Where is that one killer album that everyone's got to have? It doesn't exist, just like their hardcore fan base.
Rolling Stone might actually have known what they were talking about when it comes to this band.





The hardcore fan base is there..this band had a problem that the others did not 8)
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Postby Matthew » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:24 am

portland wrote:
Gunbot wrote:Where is Journey's Hysteria, Back in Black, or Slippery When Wet? No where, their best selling package is their Greatest Hits. Where is that one killer album that everyone's got to have? It doesn't exist, just like their hardcore fan base.
Rolling Stone might actually have known what they were talking about when it comes to this band.





The hardcore fan base is there..this band had a problem that the others did not 8)


It also had a genius singer...which those other bands did not.
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Postby portland » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:25 am

Matthew wrote:
portland wrote:
Gunbot wrote:Where is Journey's Hysteria, Back in Black, or Slippery When Wet? No where, their best selling package is their Greatest Hits. Where is that one killer album that everyone's got to have? It doesn't exist, just like their hardcore fan base.
Rolling Stone might actually have known what they were talking about when it comes to this band.





The hardcore fan base is there..this band had a problem that the others did not 8)


It also had a genius singer...which those other bands did not.



Do ya maybe think the two are connected?
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Postby Matthew » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:32 am

portland wrote:
Matthew wrote:
portland wrote:
Gunbot wrote:Where is Journey's Hysteria, Back in Black, or Slippery When Wet? No where, their best selling package is their Greatest Hits. Where is that one killer album that everyone's got to have? It doesn't exist, just like their hardcore fan base.
Rolling Stone might actually have known what they were talking about when it comes to this band.





The hardcore fan base is there..this band had a problem that the others did not 8)


It also had a genius singer...which those other bands did not.



Do ya maybe think the two are connected?


Not really. Journey released more classic albums than any of these bands - with the exception of AC/DC. And all four bands saw their best days end twenty years ago.

The damage caused by Journey's hiatus in the first half of the 1990s is routinely over-rated on this forum. Every band that was half-decent either broke up or released records with barely any impact during this time - and they all now earn a crust playing their best known songs from the 70s and 80s.

In fact Journey are unique in that they sold more copies of their back catalogue after the break up in '87 than they did before. One of the few bands from that era with an 'evergreen' list.

So what's the problem here?
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Postby Since 78 » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:38 am

Matthew wrote:
Gunbot wrote:Where is Journey's Hysteria, Back in Black, or Slippery When Wet? No where,



Er...Escape? Probably one of the most famous albums ever released....


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Postby Don » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:40 am

Matthew wrote:
Gunbot wrote:Where is Journey's Hysteria, Back in Black, or Slippery When Wet? No where,



Er...Escape? Probably one of the most famous albums ever released....


It hasn't hit Diamond status, where as the GH is sitting at 15 million sold. Hysteria and Pyromania are Diamond, Back In Black, Double Diamond. Hell, even the Back Street Boys have two Diamond albums.
When people go to buy a Journey album, they invariably grab the Greatest hits and pass over Frontiers, Escape, etc.
The Eagles, Garth Brooks, Elton John and The Beatles are the only Greatest hits packages that have sold more. The difference being, with the exception of Elton at 70 million, the other three have sold over 100 million albums in the U.S. which shows that their fans buy other albums besides the greatest hits.

My point is, there is probably a greater chance that the majority of People going to Journey concerts own the GH and maybe one other album, while a small minority will own 4 or 5 of the band's albums, and even then, that small faction of fans could be split even further between the pre- captured Journey and the Cain era Journey with an even smaller group of new Revelation only fans.
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Postby Monker » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:03 am

Matthew wrote:
Monker wrote:And, "Under the Radar" and "Main Event" both had "Higher Place", which the crowd went nuts for when I saw them.


So why are you arguing that the fan base can't accept songs outside the DD?


I'm not. I'm saying the comments in the video are from a tour where there was an over kill of songs outside of the GH's.

I am also saying that Journey does not cater to an album for much longer then one tour. After that, they remove the 'new' songs from the set and put the GH's back in. I don't think that most people in Journey's nostalgic audience want to hear those songs...but they perform them anyway. "Higher Place" *DID* catch on and would probably still be in their show if Augeri was with the band.

YOU are trying to compare the current status of the band with Augeri's time...and you insult that time in how you make your comparison. I say there is no difference between the two.
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Postby Since 78 » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:09 am

Gunbot wrote:
Matthew wrote:
Gunbot wrote:Where is Journey's Hysteria, Back in Black, or Slippery When Wet? No where,



Er...Escape? Probably one of the most famous albums ever released....


It hasn't hit Diamond status, where as the GH is sitting at 15 million sold. Hysteria and Pyromania are Diamond, Back In Black, Double Diamond. Hell, even the Back Street Boys have two Diamond albums.
When people go to buy a Journey album, they invariably grab the Greatest hits and pass over Frontiers, Escape, etc.
The Eagles, Garth Brooks, Elton John and The Beatles are the only Greatest hits packages that have sold more. The difference being, with the exception of Elton at 70 million, the other three have sold over 100 million albums in the U.S. which shows that their fans buy other albums besides the greatest hits.

My point is, there is probably a greater chance that the majority of People going to Journey concerts own the GH and maybe one other album, while a small minority will own 4 or 5 of the band's albums, and even then, that small faction of fans could be split even further between the pre- captured Journey and the Cain era Journey with an even smaller group of new Revelation only fans.


Mr. Numbers! I have to agree though. The fans that own all of the Journey catalog are probably a very small percentage.
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Postby Matthew » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:03 pm

Gunbot wrote:
Matthew wrote:
Gunbot wrote:Where is Journey's Hysteria, Back in Black, or Slippery When Wet? No where,



Er...Escape? Probably one of the most famous albums ever released....


It hasn't hit Diamond status, where as the GH is sitting at 15 million sold. Hysteria and Pyromania are Diamond, Back In Black, Double Diamond. Hell, even the Back Street Boys have two Diamond albums.
When people go to buy a Journey album, they invariably grab the Greatest hits and pass over Frontiers, Escape, etc.
The Eagles, Garth Brooks, Elton John and The Beatles are the only Greatest hits packages that have sold more. The difference being, with the exception of Elton at 70 million, the other three have sold over 100 million albums in the U.S. which shows that their fans buy other albums besides the greatest hits.

My point is, there is probably a greater chance that the majority of People going to Journey concerts own the GH and maybe one other album, while a small minority will own 4 or 5 of the band's albums, and even then, that small faction of fans could be split even further between the pre- captured Journey and the Cain era Journey with an even smaller group of new Revelation only fans.


Every estimate I've ever read puts Journey's back catalogue overall at around 70 million. So where you get this idea that people only buy the GH is beyond me.
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Postby Matthew » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:37 pm

Monker wrote:I am also saying that Journey does not cater to an album for much longer then one tour. After that, they remove the 'new' songs from the set and put the GH's back in.


Every band does that so I'm not sure why you're singling Journey out for criticism...

"Higher Place" *DID* catch on and would probably still be in their show if Augeri was with the band.


That song enjoys a cult following at best. Also - the band did perform the song live after Augeri left.

YOU are trying to compare the current status of the band with Augeri's time...and you insult that time in how you make your comparison. I say there is no difference between the two.


No difference? I guess not...except for the Top 5 Billboard hit album...the authentic, unembarrassing live performances...the media coverage...the positive reviews in the previously hostile music press....
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