President Barack Obama - Term 1 and 2 Thread

[Lula]

good luck getting any responses, jason. force the mother to carry to term, regardless and no, don't ask for assistance. i don't want to make assumptions, just going on a gut feeling. i've said my last piece on this. i think i'll try and read some of the health care reform bills circulating. enjoy your saturday

[RossValoryRocks]

I am a prochoice, libertarian, conservative...which means this: The government should stay out of people's wallets, bedrooms and wombs, PERIOD. The government HAS NO BUSINESS telling us how to live our lives and should NOT BE legislating MORALITY like this. I despise abortion, but it is simply NOT RIGHT for the Government, or anyone else to tell someone how to live their life, or what to do with their body.

I do think there needs to be restrictions on abortion access. Such as a 16 year old girl who can't get her EARS pierced with out parental permission, should not be allowed to get an ABORTION without the same. There is a 24 hour waiting period to get a GUN, shouldn't we make people wait 24 hours to think things through before they teminate the life of THEIR CHILD? There needs to be FIRM time limits: A premature baby can now survive with proper medical care at as few as 22 weeks, so don't you think it only reasonable that we not allow abortions to be performed after that point except of course in certain specific circumstances. In cases of rape, incest or the life of the mother being in danger then there have to be allowances made. There of course are a whole host of other things, but you are generally smart people, you can figure it out!

There is my 2 cents....have at me!

[Lula]

i lke your response, stu. i question the survival at 22 weeks, but i suppose it is possible with extensive medical care. i'll stay on the doctor recommendation to me- 28 weeks, but i'm not going to nitpick on this.
kisses

[Ehwmatt]

Okay, so I know nobody's going to respond to this post b/c every time I jump on this board with some attempt at a serious discussion it goes totallly unnoticed & so I revert right back to talking about something gay until it draws out the usual "Friga" jokes -------------- but anyway:

1. How do all you pro-lifers feel about abortion in cases of rape, incest or if the mother's health is such that her life would be in danger if she should carry a full-term baby?

Unanswerable on general terms... certainly if a mother's life is in danger from carrying the child to term, that would take precedence over trying to deliver [if mother desires]. As for the case of rape/incest... well, on one hand you can say that they should still have it and carry it to term on general principle. On the other hand, you can say the child inside them will be a constant 9-month reminder of the psychologically awful event they had to endure and they should be able to terminate. Or, to counter that, the joy of bringing the child into the world could help mitigate what are undoubtedly two of the worst things that can happen to a human (I personally believe rape is worse than murder in situations where the victim's psyche is permanently altered). This is the hardest question of the abortion debate, imo.

2. If you say "The baby should be born regardless," are you prepared to give more of your tax dollars to support that child through welfare, especially in the case of rape or incest where it's highly unlikely that the mother will keep the baby?

A fair inquiry, but couples wait 3+ years for adoptions to go through. Once the baby finds a home, tax dollars won't be supporting him/her any more than they support any one else besides crooked politicians. And yes, I'm aware it's harder for a child to get adopted after he/she gets older and they may need to be in the "system" a little longer. At any rate, I'd much rather have the tax dollars I'm going to be forced to pay anyway to support a child that wouldn't have had a chance at life otherwise rather than sending my money to some scumbag crack addict on the street or someone that is conning the system (I knew a kid in college that scammed his way to food stamps despite the fact that he really didn't need them).

3. If you say "The baby should be born regardless," are you prepared to give more of your tax dollars to provide counseling to that mother who's obviously going to need it if she's forced to carry a baby to term that was a result of rape or incest? Nine months is a LONG time to have that constant reminder shoved in your face everyday. It's bound to take it's toll on the mother.

Again, there are two approaches to this situation. It could indeed be further damaging for her to carry the child to term. Or, it could bring some mitigating joy to the awful situation and help her cope in the end... who's to say unless they've been in the situation. At any rate, I don't think getting an abortion is automatically going to terminate any need for further counseling/psychological assistance for a victim of said crimes. Indeed, it could even end up requiring more counseling if she has guilt about getting one. This also presumes that all rape and incest victims won't be able to finance their own counseling/care, which is obviously false.

4. If you say "The baby should be born regardless," are you prepared to give more of your tax dollars to provide food, housing, clothing, medical care & so forth for the mother if she's an unwed teen & her parents disown her, kick her out & she has no where to go now that she has revealed to them she's pregnant?

While this stuff still happens today to be sure, this isn't the 1950s any more. Now, assuming pregnancy has occurred as it certainly has in this situation, are parents this vindictive and short-sighted going to just take said daughter back into their home with open arms just because she aborted the baby? Maybe... but is the girl really better off in that situation? Chances are just as good that once she's kicked out, she's out if her parents are going to be like that. This hypothetical kinda reeks of a Lifetime movie, to be honest...

5. Are any of you who say "The baby should be born regardless" taking that stand for religious reasons? (read: Thy shalt not kill)

I'm not religious at this point in my life, although I hope there is something bigger out there for all our sakes. Abortion is a hard issue as some of the issues you've raised show, but I do think there is an aspect of it that's unconscionable for all or at least most of us, even those of us on the left side of the debate. Look no further than the "I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice" line of thought... I truly think that is telling as far as all of us knowing there's something intuitively off, if not wrong about abortion.

For me personally, I would never consent to anyone I was involved with getting one. Politically, I think there are plenty of bigger fish to fry in this country.

[RossValoryRocks]

i lke your response, stu. i question the survival at 22 weeks, but i suppose it is possible with extensive medical care. i'll stay on the doctor recommendation to me- 28 weeks, but i'm not going to nitpick on this.
kisses

Give that little boy a big hug for me...and one for Wyatt too!

[Ehwmatt]

I am a prochoice, libertarian, conservative...which means this: The government should stay out of people's wallets, bedrooms and wombs, PERIOD. The government HAS NO BUSINESS telling us how to live our lives and should NOT BE legislating MORALITY like this. I despise abortion, but it is simply NOT RIGHT for the Government, or anyone else to tell someone how to live their life, or what to do with their body.

I do think there needs to be restrictions on abortion access. Such as a 16 year old girl who can't get her EARS pierced with out parental permission, should not be allowed to get an ABORTION without the same. There is a 24 hour waiting period to get a GUN, shouldn't we make people wait 24 hours to think things through before they teminate the life of THEIR CHILD? There needs to be FIRM time limits: A premature baby can now survive with proper medical care at as few as 22 weeks, so don't you think it only reasonable that we not allow abortions to be performed after that point except of course in certain specific circumstances. In cases of rape, incest or the life of the mother being in danger then there have to be allowances made. There of course are a whole host of other things, but you are generally smart people, you can figure it out!

There is my 2 cents....have at me!

You raise the most problematic issue that courts have had with Roe in the decades since Blackmun authored it. The trimester and "viability" reasoning the Court relied on was based on the current medical technology of the time and has been very problematic when certain fact patterns have been raised in certain cases over the years (eg. Planned Parenthood of PA v. Casey 1992). Medical technology, as we all know, is in a constant state of change and the "viability" of the fetus is not fixed at a certain point in the pregnancy with said advances. Roe has certainly come under attack on these grounds, and probably rightfully so.

[Lula]

i lke your response, stu. i question the survival at 22 weeks, but i suppose it is possible with extensive medical care. i'll stay on the doctor recommendation to me- 28 weeks, but i'm not going to nitpick on this.
kisses

Give that little boy a big hug for me...and one for Wyatt too!

will do. wyatt turned 2 yesterday!

[Angel]

Interesting how the Obama thread has turned to abortion......

I've given this a lot of consideration because I can see all sides of the argument-that being said, I believe abortion is wrong and yes, I do believe it shoud be illegal except in the case of rape, incest, health of the mother or severe anomolies that are incompatible with life in the fetus; such as anacepahly. I don't buy into the argument that it's a woman's body and she has the right to chose-there are always consequences with every choice we make-when two people choose to have sex there is ALWAYS the chance that the woman could become pregnant, if proper birth control is used those chances are almost eliminated but the bottom line is if you choose to have sex and especially unprotected sex, you need to understand the risk and be willing to accept it. If it is OK to say that abortion is OK because it's "my body, my choice" then why not extend that to "my life, my choice" and make infanticide legal??? I mean a newborn baby isn't a contributing member of society yet, so when mom realizes that having a baby is harder than she thought then why is infanticide not OK? I believe the moment of conception is when life begins so there is no question to me at what point it is OK to abort a baby-it's simply not OK.

[JasonD]

I'm undecided on where I stand with the abortion issue. I sometimes agree that it should be legal only in cases of rape, incest & to protect the mother's health, but then I think of my daughter & how much I wouldn't want her going to some filthy underground abortion clinic or flying to some obscure country to get an abortion if she was faced with that decision. She's only 5 years old right now & as much as I would hope she will never be faced with an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy, I have to be realistic in knowing that anything can happen. As her dad, I would want to know that my daughter will be safe & given the best care possible, regardless of what she decided to do. This is a topic that I don't take lightly b/c, afterall, that is MY grandchild I'm hypothetically discussing here & as much as I would want my daughter to keep the baby, my daughter's health & safety would ALWAYS come first.

[donnaplease]

Very good points all around, guys. And look, nobody resorted to insults, name-calling or other browbeating tactics.

I can safely agree with most, if not all, aspects of each argument. Abortion is one of the most highly individualized situations possible, IMO. There are very few identical circumstances, therefore it's difficult for any of us to say definitively it's black or it's white. There are ethical, moral and financial aspects to consider. So, given all those considerations - and getting back on topic - I happen to believe the government should have no real say in this area, and therefore shouldn't include abortion as a covered option in any health care program, EXCEPT in a case where the life of the mother is at risk (and I'm talking about a true life or death situation, and to my knowledge those are pretty hard to come by).

Jason, thank you for your input. As to your comments not being taken seriously, don't fret it. It happens to all of us at some point or another. IDK what's worse, to be ignored, or to be ripped apart for what you say.

[donnaplease]

I'm undecided on where I stand with the abortion issue. I sometimes agree that it should be legal only in cases of rape, incest & to protect the mother's health, but then I think of my daughter & how much I wouldn't want her going to some filthy underground abortion clinic or flying to some obscure country to get an abortion if she was faced with that decision. She's only 5 years old right now & as much as I would hope she will never be faced with an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy, I have to be realistic in knowing that anything can happen. As her dad, I would want to know that my daughter will be safe & given the best care possible, regardless of what she decided to do. This is a topic that I don't take lightly b/c, afterall, that is MY grandchild I'm hypothetically discussing here & as much as I would want my daughter to keep the baby, my daughter's health & safety would ALWAYS come first.

EXACTLY!!! Not only that, but it's really easy for us to sit here and be armchair quarterbacks. It's a totally different situation when we're the ones faced with the tough decisions.

It's all good, though. I think the best thing is to keep the lines of communication open with our kids so that they make good choices, and in the event that a bad choice leads to a life-altering situation, we can work together to make the best outcome possible.

[treetopovskaya]

good luck getting any responses, jason. force the mother to carry to term, regardless and no, don't ask for assistance. i don't want to make assumptions, just going on a gut feeling. i've said my last piece on this. i think i'll try and read some of the health care reform bills circulating. enjoy your saturday

who is saying force a mother to carry to term regardless? i have already stated in this thread that if the mother or baby is at risk... or in cases of rape... or if the female is underage... but if an adult willing has unprotected sex & conceives they should hold themselves accountable... & take responsibility. hey! what about not getting knocked up to begin with? wow... what a concept huh? }:C/

why with all the info out there people still do not have their pets spayed or neutered??? why? ignorance... stupidly... not caring about the outcome. how many animals are homeless & put down each year because of owners that did't give a crap? well... i feel the same way about people not protecting themselves. the info is out there... people need to educate themselves... & start having a little more respect for their bodies in the first place.

[treetopovskaya]

I am a prochoice, libertarian, conservative...which means this: The government should stay out of people's wallets, bedrooms and wombs, PERIOD. The government HAS NO BUSINESS telling us how to live our lives and should NOT BE legislating MORALITY like this. I despise abortion, but it is simply NOT RIGHT for the Government, or anyone else to tell someone how to live their life, or what to do with their body.

I do think there needs to be restrictions on abortion access. Such as a 16 year old girl who can't get her EARS pierced with out parental permission, should not be allowed to get an ABORTION without the same. There is a 24 hour waiting period to get a GUN, shouldn't we make people wait 24 hours to think things through before they teminate the life of THEIR CHILD? There needs to be FIRM time limits: A premature baby can now survive with proper medical care at as few as 22 weeks, so don't you think it only reasonable that we not allow abortions to be performed after that point except of course in certain specific circumstances. In cases of rape, incest or the life of the mother being in danger then there have to be allowances made. There of course are a whole host of other things, but you are generally smart people, you can figure it out!

There is my 2 cents....have at me!

+1

[treetopovskaya]

Interesting how the Obama thread has turned to abortion......

I've given this a lot of consideration because I can see all sides of the argument-that being said, I believe abortion is wrong and yes, I do believe it shoud be illegal except in the case of rape, incest, health of the mother or severe anomolies that are incompatible with life in the fetus; such as anacepahly. I don't buy into the argument that it's a woman's body and she has the right to chose-there are always consequences with every choice we make-when two people choose to have sex there is ALWAYS the chance that the woman could become pregnant, if proper birth control is used those chances are almost eliminated but the bottom line is if you choose to have sex and especially unprotected sex, you need to understand the risk and be willing to accept it. If it is OK to say that abortion is OK because it's "my body, my choice" then why not extend that to "my life, my choice" and make infanticide legal??? I mean a newborn baby isn't a contributing member of society yet, so when mom realizes that having a baby is harder than she thought then why is infanticide not OK? I believe the moment of conception is when life begins so there is no question to me at what point it is OK to abort a baby-it's simply not OK.

+1

[treetopovskaya]

I'm undecided on where I stand with the abortion issue. I sometimes agree that it should be legal only in cases of rape, incest & to protect the mother's health, but then I think of my daughter & how much I wouldn't want her going to some filthy underground abortion clinic or flying to some obscure country to get an abortion if she was faced with that decision. She's only 5 years old right now & as much as I would hope she will never be faced with an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy, I have to be realistic in knowing that anything can happen. As her dad, I would want to know that my daughter will be safe & given the best care possible, regardless of what she decided to do. This is a topic that I don't take lightly b/c, afterall, that is MY grandchild I'm hypothetically discussing here & as much as I would want my daughter to keep the baby, my daughter's health & safety would ALWAYS come first.

prolly the best thing to do is teach her how important having self-respect/self worth is... raise her to be a smart confident women... so many young girls these days seem to think acting dumb is cute... so sad... & drives me nuts. }:C)

"my body my choice" that should begin WAY before someone has to think about getting an abortion.

[donnaplease]

"my body my choice" that should begin WAY before someone has to think about getting an abortion.

Comment of the Day!!!

[treetopovskaya]

http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/why_y ... r_pet.html

important info!! too many animals are being put down. abandoned & abused. kills me. }:~~C(((((((((((((

[donnaplease]

The Lord truly does work in mysterious ways...

I was doing some research on college scholarships for my son, and I stumbled across this. Very ironic. It's perfect to throw into this discussion. Take a peek. I think it will address some of Dean's and Jason's questions/concerns regarding the topic. There truly are people who want to help.

http://www.candleinthewindow.org/

[treetopovskaya]

The Lord truly does work in mysterious ways...

I was doing some research on college scholarships for my son, and I stumbled across this. Very ironic. It's perfect to throw into this discussion. Take a peek. I think it will address some of Dean's and Jason's questions/concerns regarding the topic. There truly are people who want to help.

http://www.candleinthewindow.org/

}:C)

my hubby was adopted... so were his brother & sister.

adoption should be an easier thing to do here in the united states.

[JasonD]

The Lord truly does work in mysterious ways...

I was doing some research on college scholarships for my son, and I stumbled across this. Very ironic. It's perfect to throw into this discussion. Take a peek. I think it will address some of Dean's and Jason's questions/concerns regarding the topic. There truly are people who want to help.

http://www.candleinthewindow.org/

That website is exactly what I was talking about, DP.

Far be it for me to tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her own body by way of banning legal abortions; however, I was dangerously close to the opposite side of that spectrum when my daughter's mother was pregnant with our daughter. She wanted an abortion. I wanted my child. We fault long & hard over the issue. I tried to take her to court but no attorney would touch my case. The ONLY thing that finally caused her to have our baby was me threatening to leave her if she terminated the pregnancy. She knew I was serious & I was. When I look at my little girl today, I can't imagine not having her in my life. She's my whole world.

Still, all of that is easy for ME to say b/c I'm not a pregnant female faced with all that that entails & THAT is why I have a difficult time with challenging the legalities of this issue.

[Eric]

Lula......well said on all your points regarding abortion. You are reasonable with everything you said......perfectly moderate.

[Lula]

wow eric, thanks, i really appreciate that. some might be surprised at how moderate i really am

[fredinator]

Education is the key and sex education in public schools is a must in my view. Schools should provide condoms if they don't already; girls and boys should certainly be educated about the morning after pill; maybe schools ought to have some kind of "fertility pharmacy" or something like that on campus. Public schools should educate or even provide pro bono legal advice for girls who decide to keep their babies--it seems pro-lifers want these kids to have their babies so if these girls make that decision, then the fathers of the babies should be held accountable somehow. That is what angers me the most about pro-lifers--seems like there is never any discussion of support for the seemingly young, ignorant and/or poor girls/women who are post-partum--sounds as though it would cost money and no one wants to pay any freakin' taxes. WTF.

[donnaplease]

Education is the key and sex education in public schools is a must in my view. Schools should provide condoms if they don't already; girls and boys should certainly be educated about the morning after pill; maybe schools ought to have some kind of "fertility pharmacy" or something like that on campus. Public schools should educate or even provide pro bono legal advice for girls who decide to keep their babies--it seems pro-lifers want these kids to have their babies so if these girls make that decision, then the fathers of the babies should be held accountable somehow. That is what angers me the most about pro-lifers--seems like there is never any discussion of support for the seemingly young, ignorant and/or poor girls/women who are post-partum--sounds as though it would cost money and no one wants to pay any freakin' taxes. WTF.

I feel the need to respond to this ridiculous post, but I just have no words that can describe how outraged I am by it. It's got to be THE MOST bullshit post I believe I've ever read here... and I've read a bunch!!!

You can't pray in school, but providing a 'fertility pharmacy' is ok...? WTF indeed!

[Rick]

Education is the key and sex education in public schools is a must in my view. Schools should provide condoms if they don't already; girls and boys should certainly be educated about the morning after pill; maybe schools ought to have some kind of "fertility pharmacy" or something like that on campus. Public schools should educate or even provide pro bono legal advice for girls who decide to keep their babies--it seems pro-lifers want these kids to have their babies so if these girls make that decision, then the fathers of the babies should be held accountable somehow. That is what angers me the most about pro-lifers--seems like there is never any discussion of support for the seemingly young, ignorant and/or poor girls/women who are post-partum--sounds as though it would cost money and no one wants to pay any freakin' taxes. WTF.

I feel the need to respond to this ridiculous post, but I just have no words that can describe how outraged I am by it. It's got to be THE MOST bullshit post I believe I've ever read here... and I've read a bunch!!!

You can't pray in school, but providing a 'fertility pharmacy' is ok...? WTF indeed!

Donna, there is a lot of truth in Nancy's post. It's in the first 4 words.

[donnaplease]

Education is the key and sex education in public schools is a must in my view. Schools should provide condoms if they don't already; girls and boys should certainly be educated about the morning after pill; maybe schools ought to have some kind of "fertility pharmacy" or something like that on campus. Public schools should educate or even provide pro bono legal advice for girls who decide to keep their babies--it seems pro-lifers want these kids to have their babies so if these girls make that decision, then the fathers of the babies should be held accountable somehow. That is what angers me the most about pro-lifers--seems like there is never any discussion of support for the seemingly young, ignorant and/or poor girls/women who are post-partum--sounds as though it would cost money and no one wants to pay any freakin' taxes. WTF.

I feel the need to respond to this ridiculous post, but I just have no words that can describe how outraged I am by it. It's got to be THE MOST bullshit post I believe I've ever read here... and I've read a bunch!!!

You can't pray in school, but providing a 'fertility pharmacy' is ok...? WTF indeed!

Donna, there is a lot of truth in Nancy's post. It's in the first 4 words.

Well, I can't necessarily agree with the 'a lot' sentiment, and after the first four words, it goes all to hell from there on out. I'm truly stunned, Rick, and I didn't think I could be shocked here anymore.

Maybe she should've stopped right after those four words...

[Rick]

Education is the key and sex education in public schools is a must in my view. Schools should provide condoms if they don't already; girls and boys should certainly be educated about the morning after pill; maybe schools ought to have some kind of "fertility pharmacy" or something like that on campus. Public schools should educate or even provide pro bono legal advice for girls who decide to keep their babies--it seems pro-lifers want these kids to have their babies so if these girls make that decision, then the fathers of the babies should be held accountable somehow. That is what angers me the most about pro-lifers--seems like there is never any discussion of support for the seemingly young, ignorant and/or poor girls/women who are post-partum--sounds as though it would cost money and no one wants to pay any freakin' taxes. WTF.

I feel the need to respond to this ridiculous post, but I just have no words that can describe how outraged I am by it. It's got to be THE MOST bullshit post I believe I've ever read here... and I've read a bunch!!!

You can't pray in school, but providing a 'fertility pharmacy' is ok...? WTF indeed!

Donna, there is a lot of truth in Nancy's post. It's in the first 4 words.

Well, I can't necessarily agree with the 'a lot' sentiment, and after the first four words, it goes all to hell from there on out. I'm truly stunned, Rick, and I didn't think I could be shocked here anymore.

Maybe she should've stopped right after those four words...

She would have appeared a genius if she had.

[fredinator]

Oh for heaven's sake, DP, I was throwing some IDEAS out there, something that you cons never have. The prayer argument is weak, weak and lame. Is that argument still that children should recite a prayer in the morning or does it involve a moment a silence? Whatever it is, it doesn't belong in public schools. I don't believe in abortion either--for myself--but what other freaking ideas do YOU have, for those who don't have many options? Adoption? Some girls decide against adoption when the baby is born, then what? What happens if the baby has medical problems? A prayer then? Yeah, right, snort. Education/prevention is key for me.

[treetopovskaya]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... oycotters/

[Eric]

Oh for heaven's sake, DP, I was throwing some IDEAS out there, something that you cons never have.

Bullshit. I've thrown ideas/plans on here for Social Security, Health Reform, Economic recovery, etc. and people like Noble Cause just attack.