Senator Ted Kennedy dies

[donnaplease]

It's still a travesty burying this piece of shit among solders that died for the flag that Fat Teddy was so hell bent on allowing people to burn...

Soldiers don't die for a flag. They die for an ideal of protecting their country and their people, or to protect their comrades in arms, sometimes for a political ideal, but most often they die because their job is to be a soldier, and one of the risks is getting killed.

Many (if not all) of our servicemen & women see the American flag as the symbol of that very ideal you speak of, and it has been since the Revolutionary War, when Francis Scott Key saw that star spangled banner waving in the sky. They dedicate their blood, sweat and tears to uphold the right of every American to have the freedom to express themselves as they see fit. However, they also see it as a slap in the face to desecrate the very symbol of that freedom that they themselves are protecting in such a manner. It's disrespectful, to say the least, and downright dishonorable. The people that do such things do it for the shock value, because they can, and that only adds insult to injury, IMO.


O! say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O! say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! Oh long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more!
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

O! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.'
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

[donnaplease]

it makes no difference. i'm not arguing the right to burn the flag, just stating the fact that the act is protected under the first amendment. i think it is pathetic the way this thread went, but why should this be any different than any other political subject discussed here .

peace be with the kennedy family as they mourn their loss and with those he championed.

Actually, you are arguing the right to burn the flag, simply by stating that it is protected under the first amendment.

I'm sure Ted Kennedy's legacy (kinda like SP's) will be in his wonderful acts of goodness and his royal flub-ups. His place in history is set, though, that's for sure.

[Arianddu]

It's still a travesty burying this piece of shit among solders that died for the flag that Fat Teddy was so hell bent on allowing people to burn...

Soldiers don't die for a flag. They die for an ideal of protecting their country and their people, or to protect their comrades in arms, sometimes for a political ideal, but most often they die because their job is to be a soldier, and one of the risks is getting killed.

Many (if not all) of our servicemen & women see the American flag as the symbol of that very ideal you speak of, and it has been since the Revolutionary War, when Francis Scott Key saw that star spangled banner waving in the sky. They dedicate their blood, sweat and tears to uphold the right of every American to have the freedom to express themselves as they see fit. However, they also see it as a slap in the face to desecrate the very symbol of that freedom that they themselves are protecting in such a manner. It's disrespectful, to say the least, and downright dishonorable. The people that do such things do it for the shock value, because they can, and that only adds insult to injury, IMO.

You missed what I said about the value of protest and having to take the consequences, obviously.

No doubt what you say about the symbolism is true, but every member of the armed forces I know would never say they joined the forces to defend the flag, no matter in which branch they serve, and I know many, from Australia, the US, the UK, France, New Zealand, Canada, Israel and Italy. That sort of stuff is said to justify what is done, it doesn't have much bearing on the reasons why people join the forces, or what they actually do as a member of them. Some of those people that I personally know were conscripts; they are soldiers because they have to do national service. With only one exception, all the Australians and NZ soldiers and sailors I know joined to get training in a trade. About half of the American servicemen and women I know joined because they come from depressed areas and had few other job prospects. Four of them joined because it was the only way they saw that they could get a college level education. I doubt GI Jim gets many people to sign up just because of love for the old Stars and Stripes. The Vietnam vets I know, the fathers of my friends, both Australian and American, were drafted, and get pretty damn angry when people start saying the things you say, because they feel that they were sent to kill other people, and to be killed, for bogus political reasons, and the jingoistic, national pride stuff was gilding on the lies to get people to feel ok about it. The ONLY American I know who actually burnt a flag is an ex-Marine, Vietnam vet who was awarded several bravery medals. He burnt the flag in protest because his son, who served in the first Gulf War, was denied his medical benefits as a war veteran.

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. Wilfred Owen got it right; it was true in 1917, it's still true now. http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/ww1lit/collections/item/3303?CISOBOX=1&REC=1

And why do I get het up about this at all? Because a lot of people are bleating semantics and polemics, when the reality is some people lost someone they love today, some people are grieving for the family or friend who will never be seen again. and others wait with a shadow of fear on their heart every day for someone they love who has no choice about where they get posted. When you are in that place, having to read this bullshit gets kind of maddening.

[donnaplease]

It's still a travesty burying this piece of shit among solders that died for the flag that Fat Teddy was so hell bent on allowing people to burn...

Soldiers don't die for a flag. They die for an ideal of protecting their country and their people, or to protect their comrades in arms, sometimes for a political ideal, but most often they die because their job is to be a soldier, and one of the risks is getting killed.

Many (if not all) of our servicemen & women see the American flag as the symbol of that very ideal you speak of, and it has been since the Revolutionary War, when Francis Scott Key saw that star spangled banner waving in the sky. They dedicate their blood, sweat and tears to uphold the right of every American to have the freedom to express themselves as they see fit. However, they also see it as a slap in the face to desecrate the very symbol of that freedom that they themselves are protecting in such a manner. It's disrespectful, to say the least, and downright dishonorable. The people that do such things do it for the shock value, because they can, and that only adds insult to injury, IMO.

You missed what I said about the value of protest and having to take the consequences, obviously.

No doubt what you say about the symbolism is true, but every member of the armed forces I know would never say they joined the forces to defend the flag, no matter in which branch they serve, and I know many, from Australia, the US, the UK, France, New Zealand, Canada, Israel and Italy. That sort of stuff is said to justify what is done, it doesn't have much bearing on the reasons why people join the forces, or what they actually do as a member of them. Some of those people that I personally know were conscripts; they are soldiers because they have to do national service. With only one exception, all the Australians and NZ soldiers and sailors I know joined to get training in a trade. About half of the American servicemen and women I know joined because they come from depressed areas and had few other job prospects. Four of them joined because it was the only way they saw that they could get a college level education. I doubt GI Jim gets many people to sign up just because of love for the old Stars and Stripes. The Vietnam vets I know, the fathers of my friends, both Australian and American, were drafted, and get pretty damn angry when people start saying the things you say, because they feel that they were sent to kill other people, and to be killed, for bogus political reasons, and the jingoistic, national pride stuff was gilding on the lies to get people to feel ok about it. The ONLY American I know who actually burnt a flag is an ex-Marine, Vietnam vet who was awarded several bravery medals. He burnt the flag in protest because his son, who served in the first Gulf War, was denied his medical benefits as a war veteran.

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. Wilfred Owen got it right; it was true in 1917, it's still true now. http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/ww1lit/collections/item/3303?CISOBOX=1&REC=1

And why do I get het up about this at all? Because a lot of people are bleating semantics and polemics, when the reality is some people lost someone they love today, some people are grieving for the family or friend who will never be seen again. and others wait with a shadow of fear on their heart every day for someone they love who has no choice about where they get posted. When you are in that place, having to read this bullshit gets kind of maddening.

I didn't miss it. I actually agree with you. The military nowadays is seen more as a 'job' (and those other things you mentioned) than a 'cause' or what have you. When my husband joined the Navy, he did it for training and an adventure, but he also did it because of a family 'tradition' of serving in the military, especially in the Navy. His father was a Vietnam vet, his grandfather WWII, etc. I guess the symbolism of which I'm referring isn't as prevalent as it used to be, but it's still there in some form or fashion. Pat Tillman is an example of that kind of person, IMO.

I wish Ted Kennedy's family peace and comfort at this time, and pray for the folks in the service who put themselves in harm's way for the ideals I'm discussing on this message board. Sorry if I'm contributing to your madness, just discussing current events and trying to do it in a respectful way.

[StevePerryHair]

It's still a travesty burying this piece of shit among solders that died for the flag that Fat Teddy was so hell bent on allowing people to burn...

Soldiers don't die for a flag. They die for an ideal of protecting their country and their people, or to protect their comrades in arms, sometimes for a political ideal, but most often they die because their job is to be a soldier, and one of the risks is getting killed.

Many (if not all) of our servicemen & women see the American flag as the symbol of that very ideal you speak of, and it has been since the Revolutionary War, when Francis Scott Key saw that star spangled banner waving in the sky. They dedicate their blood, sweat and tears to uphold the right of every American to have the freedom to express themselves as they see fit. However, they also see it as a slap in the face to desecrate the very symbol of that freedom that they themselves are protecting in such a manner. It's disrespectful, to say the least, and downright dishonorable. The people that do such things do it for the shock value, because they can, and that only adds insult to injury, IMO.

You missed what I said about the value of protest and having to take the consequences, obviously.

No doubt what you say about the symbolism is true, but every member of the armed forces I know would never say they joined the forces to defend the flag, no matter in which branch they serve, and I know many, from Australia, the US, the UK, France, New Zealand, Canada, Israel and Italy. That sort of stuff is said to justify what is done, it doesn't have much bearing on the reasons why people join the forces, or what they actually do as a member of them. Some of those people that I personally know were conscripts; they are soldiers because they have to do national service. With only one exception, all the Australians and NZ soldiers and sailors I know joined to get training in a trade. About half of the American servicemen and women I know joined because they come from depressed areas and had few other job prospects. Four of them joined because it was the only way they saw that they could get a college level education. I doubt GI Jim gets many people to sign up just because of love for the old Stars and Stripes. The Vietnam vets I know, the fathers of my friends, both Australian and American, were drafted, and get pretty damn angry when people start saying the things you say, because they feel that they were sent to kill other people, and to be killed, for bogus political reasons, and the jingoistic, national pride stuff was gilding on the lies to get people to feel ok about it. The ONLY American I know who actually burnt a flag is an ex-Marine, Vietnam vet who was awarded several bravery medals. He burnt the flag in protest because his son, who served in the first Gulf War, was denied his medical benefits as a war veteran.

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. Wilfred Owen got it right; it was true in 1917, it's still true now. http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/ww1lit/collections/item/3303?CISOBOX=1&REC=1

And why do I get het up about this at all? Because a lot of people are bleating semantics and polemics, when the reality is some people lost someone they love today, some people are grieving for the family or friend who will never be seen again. and others wait with a shadow of fear on their heart every day for someone they love who has no choice about where they get posted. When you are in that place, having to read this bullshit gets kind of maddening.

I didn't miss it. I actually agree with you. The military nowadays is seen more as a 'job' (and those other things you mentioned) than a 'cause' or what have you. When my husband joined the Navy, he did it for training and an adventure, but he also did it because of a family 'tradition' of serving in the military, especially in the Navy. His father was a Vietnam vet, his grandfather WWII, etc. I guess the symbolism of which I'm referring isn't as prevalent as it used to be, but it's still there in some form or fashion. Pat Tillman is an example of that kind of person, IMO.

I wish Ted Kennedy's family peace and comfort at this time, and pray for the folks in the service who put themselves in harm's way for the ideals I'm discussing on this message board. Sorry if I'm contributing to your madness, just discussing current events and trying to do it in a respectful way.

I still say many join up for the patriotism even though it is also tradition. I know a young woman who left for basic training for the navy on Monday. She didn't have to join the Navy. College was an easy option for her. But her father though a police officer most of his life, was in the Navy before that , and her father is always preaching patriotism, the flag, and pride in defending our country. Their house if full of pictures that reflect that. And I think a lot of us have pride or whatever, but most people don't preach it and live it the way they do. We were at a party on Sunday, and he used that as a time to say bye to his daughter, which was very emotional for him, because he knows this is a dangerous time, but you could also feel his pride in her. She was not forced to join for money, she was not pressured because her dad did it and pressured her, because he was genuinely worried about her. She did it because she felt the pride in defending this country like she grew up listening to her father talk about. The thing is we live in a country where it IS a choice. No matter what the reasons for the choice, it IS a choice, so I have a lot of respect for that. I don't buy that most are joining because of money and they need a job. I think there are still people with that patriotism in their blood.

I think it's also hard for people from other countries to understand. My mom has friends from the Netherlands and they told her recently how they just don't understand how we can pledge allegiance to a flag. They thought it was the weirdest thing that we do that here in the U.S. My mom had not ever thought of that being weird to others and she just explained to her that you are actually the flag was just a symbol of the country, and it's the country you are actually pledging allegiance to. She still found it weird. I think we just have customs here that make it hard to understand. Not to mention the fact that most European countries do force everyone to join the military and serve, and they have no choice. Mainly because they are too small to have a voluntary military. It is a whole different mentality when you are forced to join.

Maybe G.I. Jim can chime in and tell us his numbers and what he sees and hears out there as far as WHY they are joining.

[Enigma869]

Well said John, as always. Where you been anyway?. We could of used you here recently!. Yeah got into some heavy Perry debates, all we needed was a post from you, and it would of been all she wrote, good night charlie to that debate.

RIP
Senator Kennedy.

Hey Vladan...

Where are the latest links for the latest Perry debates you're alluding to? I have to catch up on some reading

[Lula]

Actually, you are arguing the right to burn the flag, simply by stating that it is protected under the first amendment.

I'm sure Ted Kennedy's legacy (kinda like SP's) will be in his wonderful acts of goodness and his royal flub-ups. His place in history is set, though, that's for sure.

no donna i'm not, by stating it is protected as free speech to the lot that doesn't seem to understand constitutional rights. i don't give damn what the so called kennedy haters say, if it's protected under the first amendment so be it. if anything i'm arguing the first amendment. i didn't bring the flag burning act up, just wanting to interject some facts in the little fantasy world some here seem to exist in.

this thread has really gone the way of the toilet. so glad we have such stand up blowhards to defend this great country from their keyboards. pathetic

[Blueskies]

Maybe G.I. Jim can chime in and tell us his numbers and what he sees and hears out there as far as WHY they are joining.

I'm not intending to speak for Jim, it would be good to read his input, but I would like to relate what I've recently seen.

My son graduated from bootcamp in July. He joined at 25 and had a good job before entering the service. He didn't need to enlist, he wanted to. He wanted to take a different career path, he wanted the disipline of the service and he wanted the pride of wearing the uniform and had the desire to serve something more then just himself....there is also a history of service in my family from every generation back to the Revolutionary War. There were 2 days given for graduation....the first was family day and the next was the ceremony and then hanging out the rest of the day. During those two days I asked other soldiers... a number of friends of my son he introduced me to....I asked them why they joined and got a variety of answers. Yes, there were some younger ones that said they joined out of need and thought it was the best path for them to take but many did not have to and had other options available but chose to join for some of the same reasons as my son. I was surprised at how many of my sons friends were older then him....some much older...who enlisted even though they already have college degrees and had held good jobs.

So what I'm saying is there was no one common answer to the question....but from the number I talked to more joined from want and not need.....and when I looked at all their faces during the graduation ceremony they all were proud to be wearing the uniform regardless of what initial reasons they had for enlisting.
Now is this accounting a proper tally as to why the majority of people join the military? No, of course not..Jim could give a better answer to that....it's just a small group sample from my own recent interactions.

[Tito]

He was not a good person.

He is the reason for the need of term limits.

He's the reason we have to press "one" for english, thanks to his wonderful immigration law of 1965. He was not a patriot by a long shot.

[RaisedOnRadio92]

He was not a good person.

He is the reason for the need of term limits.

He's the reason we have to press "one" for english, thanks to his wonderful immigration law of 1965. He was not a patriot by a long shot.

+1

Let's not forget that fact that he was a drunken murderer.

[Tito]

flag burning is protected under the first amendment, like it or not.

bullshit. The flag burning argument is a fucking ludicrous one. Freedom is not something that should be protected in the absolute.....

do you have the freedom to walk up to someone and urinate in their mouth? Do you have the freedom to wipe your feces on the front door of the local supermarket? Do you have the freedom to burn a swastika into the lawn of your neighbor?

All could be inappropriately argued as a freedom of expression. Oh come on...what's a little swastika for fun and expression....eh?
The problem is that they are wrong on ALL levels....


Why is it not ok for someone to fly the civil war flag of the south but it's a freedom of expression if you burn the american flag?

Riddle me that one Lula?

You can't have your cake and eat it too.....


I guarantee you that there are very few soldiers who went to war at the request of the fat lying scumbags in congress like Fat Teddie or whatever president is sitting in office.....with the express intent of defending individuals who would deface the very flag they wear on their arm walking into battle.


The flag is a symbol of freedom. Burning the symbol is not an expression of the very freedom it represents...

I guess by that line of reasoning it's ok to burn a cross in someone's yard, right?

Seriously, though, I wonder why flag burning isn't considered a 'hate' crime, especially when it's done at a political/military rally. How is that different than burning a cross at a KKK rally? Both seem to express a certain disdain for a group of individuals who are not deserving of such treatment. Just some food for thought.

(For the record, I'm not advocating cross burning, the KKK, or anything else. Just playing devil's advocate, here.)

There should be no hate crimes. A crime is a crime.

[Blueskies]

He was not a good person.

He is the reason for the need of term limits.

He's the reason we have to press "one" for english, thanks to his wonderful immigration law of 1965. He was not a patriot by a long shot.

There are a number of Republicans who considered him a good man and were close friends with him even if they disagreed on some issues. You are so biased to one side that you don't look and consider anything listed on the positive side of the balance sheet.

I could say that you don't seem like a good man either...going by the summation of what you say here.....but would that be a completely fair and accurate judgement of you? Is there more to you that can't be seen from you're posts here? Are you just as hateful as you've come across here? Are you only out for yourself in life and have never done a thing for someone else? No good deeds done? I don't know since I've never met you....never talked to you off of this board. So I can only go by what you say here...but is it fair to make a complete assessment from that? Does that give me the whole truth of who you are? Should I just consider who you really are only thru my bias from your posts?

So, like I said earlier in this thread.....
Put aside your political bias to more accurately look at the whole ledger of the man from what is known and weigh the positive and negative and you'll find the balance of truth.

[Blueskies]

He was not a good person.

He is the reason for the need of term limits.

He's the reason we have to press "one" for english, thanks to his wonderful immigration law of 1965. He was not a patriot by a long shot.

+1

Let's not forget that fact that he was a drunken murderer.

Did he set out to kill someone? No. Did his actions cause the death? Yes.
Just like any drunk driver who's actions cause the death of someone he should have stood trial for it and if found guilty should have gotten punished for it.
but that didn't happen. I do think he punished himself, though...and he also paid for it too.......and worked hard for the rest of his life to try to do some good for others.


Was he perfect? No...no one is. Did he make many mistakes in life, especially when he was young? Yes....and the death of Mary Jo due to his actions was a huge one. But did he learn along the way and tried to give back as best he could .... in the way he saw he could? Yes.

Does his ledger balance out? For some yes for others no. But at least try to put aside political bias when viewing it...as his many friends on both sides of the aisle did in becoming friends with him and seeing him further past the surface level. If you would look more clearly and fairly you would see more too....you just choose to only look at what you want...but there is more to the picture.

[strangegrey]

There are a number of Republicans who considered him a good man....

Name one


...John McCain doesn't count, as he's not a republican by a long shot. Other politicians are merely paying their 'respets' to Fat Teddie to capitalize on the political chips they can easily collect on their verbal tribute.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Did he set out to kill someone? No. Did his actions cause the death? Yes.
Just like any drunk driver who's actions cause the death of someone he should have stood trial for it and if found guilty should have gotten punished for it.
but that didn't happen. I do think he punished himself, though...and he also paid for it too.......and worked hard for the rest of his life to try to do some good for others.

Save your breath.
It's a false issue.
These guys genuinely care about Mary Jo as much as they do about the dead bodies stacked up like cordwood in Iraq.
In other words, they don't give a coagulated bison turd.
It's just a cover to bitch about liberals.

[The_Noble_Cause]

...John McCain doesn't count, as he's not a republican by a long shot.

By what standard?
Put his voting record up against Reagan and I think you'd find they match practically toe-to-toe.
You also say George W. Bush wasn't a Republican or a Conservative.
Well, he has the lone distinction of never raising taxes.
That's more than can be said about past Republican presidents.

[The_Noble_Cause]

The difference is that the liberals attack the living shit out of every controversial conservative IN LIFE, NOT DEATH!

RIGHT.
As if the mere mention of Kennedy’s name didn’t elicit a chorus of taunts like “The Swimmer!”, “Chappaquiddick!”, and “Mari Jo!” back when he still graced the surly bonds of earth?
Hate to break it to ya, but nothing you are saying hasn’t been said a thousand times before.
In fact, these same grave dancing potshots were made on the forum back when it was first announced he had terminal brain cancer.
I have ZERO problem with casket pissing, but don’t justify it with some bogus lib vs. con relativism that doesn’t exist.
No Democrat has been more ridiculed in life than Ted Kennedy.

If someone like Beck or Rush died tomorrow, liberals wouldn't change a fucking thing....

Those guys are shock jocks, paid to say controversial things every day for three hours.
No comparison.
Is that the best the Conservative movement has got?
Two drug-addled uneducated disc jockeys?
The day when the Democratic Party looks to Rosie O'Donnell or Bill Maher for leadership, I will personally kill it myself.

Hell.....the amount of undeserved shit that Glen Beck is taking right now, because of the sack of shit media is unconscionable. Holy crap....Keith Olbermann or that clam-licking Rachel Maddow deserve 10X what the libs are dishing out on fucking Beck.

You can’t really buy Beck’s bullshit, do you?
The guy was the biggest Bush asskisser around.
Now, with the GOP is tatters, he has shifted gears into Alex Jones conspiratorial BS.
His show has gone so far off the rails he routinely cautions his audience not to do anything stupid and commit acts of violence.
Show me one example of Maddow or Olbermann hysterically crying on live TV, or warning America of the looming threat of Nazi eugenics and FEMA concentration camps.
Just one.
Not even one month into his term, Beck was already playing black and white montages of Hitler, Stalin, and Obama and urging his audience to “Rise Up!” – meanwhile, back in reality, Obama is moving billions from Main Street to bail out Wall Sreet.
That's not socialism you can believe in.

....and it's quite all right with the libs to attack him mercilessly.

Why the fuck not?
When the Dixie Chicks dared to express their embarrassment over Bush, the Right organized boycotts and album bonfires all across the country.
If people want to boycott Beck (who has said far worse), let them.

[Tito]

Did he set out to kill someone? No. Did his actions cause the death? Yes.
Just like any drunk driver who's actions cause the death of someone he should have stood trial for it and if found guilty should have gotten punished for it.
but that didn't happen. I do think he punished himself, though...and he also paid for it too.......and worked hard for the rest of his life to try to do some good for others.

Save your breath.
It's a false issue.
These guys genuinely care about Mary Jo as much as they do about the dead bodies stacked up like cordwood in Iraq.
In other words, they don't give a coagulated bison turd.
It's just a cover to bitch about liberals.

I care.

[Blueskies]

There are a number of Republicans who considered him a good man....

Name one


...John McCain doesn't count, as he's not a republican by a long shot. Other politicians are merely paying their 'respets' to Fat Teddie to capitalize on the political chips they can easily collect on their verbal tribute.

Ronald and Nancy Reagan for starters....and a few others mentioned in this article....
http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/54987117.html
as well as other articles and several that commented on television yesterday.
Isn't John McCain a member of the Republican Party and was even their nomination to run for President?

Hey, these men and women in government will fight on issues but some of them respect each other and some of opposing sides are even good personal friends. Are all your friends only either Democrat or Republican or Independents, etc. ....will you only accept someone as a friend if they agree with you on everything or do you have some that differ but you still like them and respect them?
Frank, do you ever consider anyone elses views...are open to what someone else is saying and really listen and consider it or are you totally frozen in place?

[Enigma869]

It's sort of ironic that politics (The Kennedy's family business) is the impetus that allows for all of this hate. As I said previously, I would NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER begin to defend Ted Kennedy's actions that caused the death of Mary Jo Kopechne. His actions that caused her death were inexcusable. His reaction to the event was disgusting. He penalty for causing the death of another human being was an insult to what the word justice means.

Having said all of that, I can't believe that even the buffoons on this forum aren't aware of the significance of Ted Kennedy. I am certain (partisan politics aside) that American History will view him as the most significant legistlator, EVER! He has over 2500 bills with his name on them and over 300 laws with his name on them. He is THE REASON that disabled Americans have access in this country, period. He is THE REASON you get to cast your vote at 18 and not 21! He was a huge champion of civil rights. He supported gay rights more than 25 years ago...long before anyone even thought of being so bold to speak out for equal treatment! While many on this board have an elitist arrogance that they're the smartest fucks on the planet, their moronic statements bely that fact. I'm honestly not trying to convert ANYONE to like Ted Kennedy, because I honestly don't give a fuck who likes the guy or not. I just think spewing this much hatred for ANY human being, before the body is cold, is completely out of line.

My final point is this...I've already capitulated on the fact that the event at Chappaquiddick was HORRIFFIC and my heart breaks for the family of Mary Jo Kopechne. I'm certain that her family has never gotten over the loss of a young 28 year old woman, who had her entire life in front of her, and it was snuffed out because Kennedy couldn't put the bottle down! Chappaquiddick is THE REASON that Kennedy didn't ascend to the presidency and had zero shot of that ever happening. That said, I still believe that he did a whole lot of good for many people in this country and we would all do well to do one 100th of the work he did, on behalf of the American people! My experience in life tells me that EVERY human being is flawed. I realize that not all of us is flawed to the point that we've caused the death of another human. I also don't think that one can ever really atone for the loss of another human life. I just don't think the work he did over almost 50 years is rendered insignificant because of a horrendous error in judgment!

[Enigma869]

Name one

Orrin Hatch and even though Reagan is dead, he was also very close with Kennedy and considered him to be a friend, and the reason anything ever got done in Washington!

[Tito]

The true obit for Saint Kennedy

1. He was caught cheating at Harvard when he attended it. He was expelled twice, once for cheating on a test, and once for paying a classmate to cheat for him.

2. While expelled, Kennedy enlisted in the Army, but mistakenly signed up for four years instead of two. Oops! The man can't count to four! His father, Joseph P. Kennedy, former U.S. Ambassador to England (a step up from bootlegging liquor into the US from Canada during prohibition), pulled the necessary strings to have his enlistment shortened to two years, and to ensure that he served in Europe, not Korea , where a war was raging. No preferential treatment for him! (like he charged that President Bush received).

3. Kennedy was assigned to Paris , never advanced beyond the rank of Private, and returned to Harvard upon being discharged.. Imagine a person of his "education" NEVER advancing past the rank of Private!

4. While attending law school at the University of Virginia , he was cited for reckless driving four times, including once when he was clocked driving 90 miles per hour in a residential neighborhood with his headlights off after dark. Yet his Virginia driver's license was never revoked. Coincidentally, he passed the bar exam in 1959. Amazing!

5. In 1964, he was seriously injured in a plane crash, and hospitalized for several months. Test results done by the hospital at the time he was admitted had shown he was legally intoxicated. The results of those tests remained a "state secret" until in the 1980's when the report was unsealed. Didn't hear about that from the unbiased media, did we?

6. On July 19, 1969, Kennedy attended a party on Chappaquiddick Island in Massachusetts . At about 11:00 PM, he borrowed his chauffeur's keys to his Oldsmobile limousine, and offered to give a ride home to Mary Jo Kopechne, a campaign worker. Leaving the island via an unlit bridge with no guard rail, Kennedy steered the car off the bridge, flipped, and into Poucha Pond.

7. He swam to shore and walked back to the party, passing several houses and a fire station. Two friends then returned with him to the scene of the accident. According to their later testimony, they told him what he already knew - that he was required by law to immediately report the accident to the authorities. Instead Kennedy made his way to his hotel, called his lawyer, and went to sleep. Kennedy called the police the next morning and by then the wreck had already been discovered. Before dying, Kopechne had scratched at the upholstered floor above her head in the upside-down car.

The Kennedy family began "calling in favors", ensuring that any inquiry would be contained. Her corpse was whisked out-of-state to her family, before an autopsy could be conducted. Further details are uncertain, but after the accident Kennedy says he repeatedly dove under the water trying to rescue Kopechne and he didn't call police because he was in a state of shock. It is widely assumed Kennedy was drunk, and he held off calling police in hopes that his family could fix the problem overnight. Since the accident, Kennedy's "political enemies" have referred to him as the distinguished Senator from Chappaquiddick. He pled guilty to leaving the scene of an accident, and was given a SUSPENDED SENTENCE OF TWO MONTHS. Kopechne's family received a small payout from the Kennedy's insurance policy, and never sued. There was later an effort to have her body exhumed and autopsied, but her family successfully fought against this in court, and Kennedy's family paid their attorney's bills... a "token of friendship"?

8. Kennedy has held his Senate seat for more than forty years, but considering his longevity, his accomplishments seem scant. He authored or argued for legislation that ensured a variety of civil rights, increased the minimum wage in 1981, made access to health care easier for the indigent, and funded Meals on Wheels for fixed-income seniors and is widely held as the "standard-bearer for liberalism". In his very first Senate roll, he was the floor manager for the bill that turned U.S. immigration policy upside down and opened the floodgate for immigrants from third world countries.

9. Since that time, he has been the prime instigator and author of every expansion of an increase in immigration, up to and including the latest attempt to grant amnesty to illegal aliens. Not to mention the pious grilling he gave the last two Supreme Court nominees, as if he was the standard bearer for the nation in matters of "what's right". What a pompous ass!

10. He is known around Washington as a public drunk, loud, boisterous and very disrespectful to ladies. JERK is a better description than "great American". "A blonde in every pond" is his motto.

Let's not allow the spin doctors make this jerk a hero -- how quickly the American public forgets what his real legacy is. Let's keep this going for truth, justice and the American way!

Too bad things weren't reversed at Chappaquiddick, so Mary Jo could of walked away, and Teddy been the one left in the back seat

[Enigma869]

The true obit for Saint Kennedy

1. He was caught cheating at Harvard when he attended it. He was expelled twice, once for cheating on a test, and once for paying a classmate to cheat for him.

2. While expelled, Kennedy enlisted in the Army, but mistakenly signed up for four years instead of two. Oops! The man can't count to four! His father, Joseph P. Kennedy, former U.S. Ambassador to England (a step up from bootlegging liquor into the US from Canada during prohibition), pulled the necessary strings to have his enlistment shortened to two years, and to ensure that he served in Europe, not Korea , where a war was raging. No preferential treatment for him! (like he charged that President Bush received).

3. Kennedy was assigned to Paris , never advanced beyond the rank of Private, and returned to Harvard upon being discharged.. Imagine a person of his "education" NEVER advancing past the rank of Private!

4. While attending law school at the University of Virginia , he was cited for reckless driving four times, including once when he was clocked driving 90 miles per hour in a residential neighborhood with his headlights off after dark. Yet his Virginia driver's license was never revoked. Coincidentally, he passed the bar exam in 1959. Amazing!

5. In 1964, he was seriously injured in a plane crash, and hospitalized for several months. Test results done by the hospital at the time he was admitted had shown he was legally intoxicated. The results of those tests remained a "state secret" until in the 1980's when the report was unsealed. Didn't hear about that from the unbiased media, did we?

6. On July 19, 1969, Kennedy attended a party on Chappaquiddick Island in Massachusetts . At about 11:00 PM, he borrowed his chauffeur's keys to his Oldsmobile limousine, and offered to give a ride home to Mary Jo Kopechne, a campaign worker. Leaving the island via an unlit bridge with no guard rail, Kennedy steered the car off the bridge, flipped, and into Poucha Pond.

7. He swam to shore and walked back to the party, passing several houses and a fire station. Two friends then returned with him to the scene of the accident. According to their later testimony, they told him what he already knew - that he was required by law to immediately report the accident to the authorities. Instead Kennedy made his way to his hotel, called his lawyer, and went to sleep. Kennedy called the police the next morning and by then the wreck had already been discovered. Before dying, Kopechne had scratched at the upholstered floor above her head in the upside-down car.

The Kennedy family began "calling in favors", ensuring that any inquiry would be contained. Her corpse was whisked out-of-state to her family, before an autopsy could be conducted. Further details are uncertain, but after the accident Kennedy says he repeatedly dove under the water trying to rescue Kopechne and he didn't call police because he was in a state of shock. It is widely assumed Kennedy was drunk, and he held off calling police in hopes that his family could fix the problem overnight. Since the accident, Kennedy's "political enemies" have referred to him as the distinguished Senator from Chappaquiddick. He pled guilty to leaving the scene of an accident, and was given a SUSPENDED SENTENCE OF TWO MONTHS. Kopechne's family received a small payout from the Kennedy's insurance policy, and never sued. There was later an effort to have her body exhumed and autopsied, but her family successfully fought against this in court, and Kennedy's family paid their attorney's bills... a "token of friendship"?

8. Kennedy has held his Senate seat for more than forty years, but considering his longevity, his accomplishments seem scant. He authored or argued for legislation that ensured a variety of civil rights, increased the minimum wage in 1981, made access to health care easier for the indigent, and funded Meals on Wheels for fixed-income seniors and is widely held as the "standard-bearer for liberalism". In his very first Senate roll, he was the floor manager for the bill that turned U.S. immigration policy upside down and opened the floodgate for immigrants from third world countries.

9. Since that time, he has been the prime instigator and author of every expansion of an increase in immigration, up to and including the latest attempt to grant amnesty to illegal aliens. Not to mention the pious grilling he gave the last two Supreme Court nominees, as if he was the standard bearer for the nation in matters of "what's right". What a pompous ass!

10. He is known around Washington as a public drunk, loud, boisterous and very disrespectful to ladies. JERK is a better description than "great American". "A blonde in every pond" is his motto.

Let's not allow the spin doctors make this jerk a hero -- how quickly the American public forgets what his real legacy is. Let's keep this going for truth, justice and the American way!

Too bad things weren't reversed at Chappaquiddick, so Mary Jo could of walked away, and Teddy been the one left in the back seat

Come up with an original fucking thought, and stop copying and pasting from right-wing websites. You're a fucking douche!

[Tito]

Come up with an original fucking thought, and stop copying and pasting from right-wing websites. You're a fucking douche!

I wish you were in the car instead of Mary Jo Kopechne. How's that?

[RossValoryRocks]

Come up with an original fucking thought, and stop copying and pasting from right-wing websites. You're a fucking douche!

I wish you were in the car instead of Mary Jo Kopechne. How's that?

Wow...trying for another vacation Tito?

[Blueskies]

Come up with an original fucking thought, and stop copying and pasting from right-wing websites. You're a fucking douche!

I wish you were in the car instead of Mary Jo Kopechne. How's that?

You are not a good person, Tito.

[Tito]

Come up with an original fucking thought, and stop copying and pasting from right-wing websites. You're a fucking douche!

I wish you were in the car instead of Mary Jo Kopechne. How's that?

You are not a good person, Tito.

YES I AM! I'm the real deal.

[Blueskies]

Come up with an original fucking thought, and stop copying and pasting from right-wing websites. You're a fucking douche!

I wish you were in the car instead of Mary Jo Kopechne. How's that?

You are not a good person, Tito.

YES I AM! I'm the real deal.

No...a good person would not wish death on another. You are sadly a mess of a person with an ill soul.

[Saint John]

Come up with an original fucking thought, and stop copying and pasting from right-wing websites. You're a fucking douche!

I wish you were in the car instead of Mary Jo Kopechne. How's that?

You are not a good person, Tito.

YES I AM! I'm the real deal.

No...a good person would not wish death on another. You are sadly a mess of a person with an ill soul.

It was hyperbole, not to mention impossible. Hop on your broom and go fly into a jet turbine.

[Blueskies]

Come up with an original fucking thought, and stop copying and pasting from right-wing websites. You're a fucking douche!

I wish you were in the car instead of Mary Jo Kopechne. How's that?

You are not a good person, Tito.

YES I AM! I'm the real deal.

No...a good person would not wish death on another. You are sadly a mess of a person with an ill soul.

It was hyperbole, not to mention impossible. Hop on your broom and go fly into a jet turbine.

There is no question to why you two are friends. Like minds.