Arnel Pineda flatly denies rumors that he is leaving Journey

[Jana]

Sweet & Simple!!!

Anyway you want it!!

good one MG.. .

After the Fall -

Separate Ways

[Escape81]

????

What's your point Steveo? I'm not sure I follow..... the fact that both Steve and Neal admit to their mistakes doesn't change the fact that they made them..... it means both have enough class and humility to admit to the press, media, and the WORLD that they fucked up. I personally respect that.... but I also believe NS has a lot more to be angry about than SP..... especially if those rumors are true about Steve being paid like a full fledged member for ten years.

If Perry got paid, it was only because Neal agreed to it. Schon could have just said fuck it, changed the name of the band and still performed Journey songs. It takes two to tango. Coming back 10 years after you agreed to something and crying about it just sounds like sour grapes.

????

Herbie mentioned that the band was under gag orders courtesy of Steve's attorney....... the gag orders presumably ended when the contract ended in 08. THAT (speculation of course) seems like a VERY good reason why he came back ten years later to bitch about it..... Im not for attacking or dehumanizing SP, but I think phrases like "takes two to tango" and proposing that NS should change the name of the band HE created takes it a bit too far. IF he made them pay him like a full fledged member, that's a bullshit move. Why cant people just accept that SP made a couple of asshole moves and move on....?

[Don]

Oh lord. here we go.

Steve Augeri with them ten years, made a ton of money, I'm sure a millionaire, instead of working at the GAP. Left only b/c his voice couldn't handle the catalogue anymore. JSS made more money from them in that brief period of time than he probably has in many, many of his own years combined, plus I'm sure he got something on the termination. Poor Journey singers, they really go to the poorhouse.

When it ends it ends with Arnel, and he will walk away a millionaire -- multi-millionaire.

Jana, you couldn't be more wrong with every situation you presented. Wrong, wrong and wrong.

RockinDeano is probably their book keeper masquerading as a flamboyant MR poster.

Re-reading it. I can see what Deano's talking about. I missed it the first time as I was looking more at the multi-millionaire part of the post.

[Don]

????

What's your point Steveo? I'm not sure I follow..... the fact that both Steve and Neal admit to their mistakes doesn't change the fact that they made them..... it means both have enough class and humility to admit to the press, media, and the WORLD that they fucked up. I personally respect that.... but I also believe NS has a lot more to be angry about than SP..... especially if those rumors are true about Steve being paid like a full fledged member for ten years.

If Perry got paid, it was only because Neal agreed to it. Schon could have just said fuck it, changed the name of the band and still performed Journey songs. It takes two to tango. Coming back 10 years after you agreed to something and crying about it just sounds like sour grapes.

????

Herbie mentioned that the band was under gag orders courtesy of Steve's attorney....... the gag orders presumably ended when the contract ended in 08. THAT (speculation of course) seems like a VERY good reason why he came back ten years later to bitch about it..... Im not for attacking or dehumanizing SP, but I think phrases like "takes two to tango" and proposing that NS should change the name of the band HE created takes it a bit too far. IF he made them pay him like a full fledged member, that's a bullshit move. Why cant people just accept that SP made a couple of asshole moves and move on....?

He made? No one makes anyone do any thing in this country without going to court. To paint Neal as a victim doesn't compute. When Schon does something deemed unsavory to Augeri or JSS, it's just business. When Perry does something to protect the work he has contributed heavily to for the last 20 years, he's an asshole.

Why is there a double standard here.?

As far as getting paid, Herbie set the precedent for that already when Ross and Smitty got paid during ROR.

[Escape81]

You're joking, right??? There is no double standard on my end whatsoever...... I'm FAR more interested in the music these guys put out (ALL of them) rather than the personal soap opera between them...... what happened to Jeff and Steve A. WAS ridiculous, I agree. It's one thing to fire a singer or replace one, but HOW you do it is important. From my understanding, Steve A. was dropped the second Jeff got rave reviews during the tour w/ Def Leppard.... and someone from REO Speedwagon or Styx told Jeff that he was replaced, right???? It was highly unethical and devious of management to do.... and if I get confirmation that Neal was the mastermind behind it all, rather than the management itself, then Ill happily heap the blame his way.

Now tell me how SP wanting to get paid like a full fledged member, the subsequent gag orders and other BS constitutes him trying to protect the work he contributed heavily to.

[Escape81]

Steve S. and Ross were terminated on a WHIM in exchange for drum machines and a small army of studio bassists + Randy Jackson...... I personally never understood the rationale for getting rid of them both.... they werent the lyricists or musical masterminds.... if Steve wanted to change the formula so badly, he probably should have tried to get rid of Neal.... to my knowledge, Steve S. and Ross never carried real leverage against the process..... they seemed to just take the backseat. Steve P. on the other hand REFUSED TO TOUR. So this is hardly the same thing.

Why are YOU so determined to defend him if I may ask??

[journeyrock]

????

What's your point Steveo? I'm not sure I follow..... the fact that both Steve and Neal admit to their mistakes doesn't change the fact that they made them..... it means both have enough class and humility to admit to the press, media, and the WORLD that they fucked up. I personally respect that.... but I also believe NS has a lot more to be angry about than SP..... especially if those rumors are true about Steve being paid like a full fledged member for ten years.

If Perry got paid, it was only because Neal agreed to it. Schon could have just said fuck it, changed the name of the band and still performed Journey songs. It takes two to tango. Coming back 10 years after you agreed to something and crying about it just sounds like sour grapes.

????

Herbie mentioned that the band was under gag orders courtesy of Steve's attorney....... the gag orders presumably ended when the contract ended in 08. THAT (speculation of course) seems like a VERY good reason why he came back ten years later to bitch about it..... Im not for attacking or dehumanizing SP, but I think phrases like "takes two to tango" and proposing that NS should change the name of the band HE created takes it a bit too far. IF he made them pay him like a full fledged member, that's a bullshit move. Why cant people just accept that SP made a couple of asshole moves and move on....?

He made? No one makes anyone do any thing in this country without going to court. To paint Neal as a victim doesn't compute. When Schon does something deemed unsavory to Augeri or JSS, it's just business. When Perry does something to protect the work he has contributed heavily to for the last 20 years, he's an asshole.

Why is there a double standard here.?

As far as getting paid, Herbie set the precedent for that already when Ross and Smitty got paid during ROR.

for the life of me I will never understand this notion that Neal created this band. Herbie is the one that created the band, not Neal. Granted, he created it around Neal and Greg, but without Herbie going to Neal AND Greg by the way, it would never have been created at all. So how is it that Neal gets all the credit and it's "HIS BAND"

[Escape81]

????

What's your point Steveo? I'm not sure I follow..... the fact that both Steve and Neal admit to their mistakes doesn't change the fact that they made them..... it means both have enough class and humility to admit to the press, media, and the WORLD that they fucked up. I personally respect that.... but I also believe NS has a lot more to be angry about than SP..... especially if those rumors are true about Steve being paid like a full fledged member for ten years.

If Perry got paid, it was only because Neal agreed to it. Schon could have just said fuck it, changed the name of the band and still performed Journey songs. It takes two to tango. Coming back 10 years after you agreed to something and crying about it just sounds like sour grapes.

????

Herbie mentioned that the band was under gag orders courtesy of Steve's attorney....... the gag orders presumably ended when the contract ended in 08. THAT (speculation of course) seems like a VERY good reason why he came back ten years later to bitch about it..... Im not for attacking or dehumanizing SP, but I think phrases like "takes two to tango" and proposing that NS should change the name of the band HE created takes it a bit too far. IF he made them pay him like a full fledged member, that's a bullshit move. Why cant people just accept that SP made a couple of asshole moves and move on....?

He made? No one makes anyone do any thing in this country without going to court. To paint Neal as a victim doesn't compute. When Schon does something deemed unsavory to Augeri or JSS, it's just business. When Perry does something to protect the work he has contributed heavily to for the last 20 years, he's an asshole.

Why is there a double standard here.?

As far as getting paid, Herbie set the precedent for that already when Ross and Smitty got paid during ROR.

for the life of me I will never understand this notion that Neal created this band. Herbie is the one that created the band, not Neal. Granted, he created it around Neal and Greg, but without Herbie going to Neal AND Greg by the way, it would never have been created at all. So how is it that Neal gets all the credit and it's "HIS BAND"

If it was created around Neal (which it was according to BTM).... then it's his....... even Steve P. called it Neal's band in the GQ interview..... and lest we forget, Steve P. demanded that they get rid of Herbie too.

[Don]

You're joking, right??? There is no double standard on my end whatsoever...... I'm FAR more interested in the music these guys put out (ALL of them) rather than the personal soap opera between them...... what happened to Jeff and Steve A. WAS ridiculous, I agree. It's one thing to fire a singer or replace one, but HOW you do it is important. From my understanding, Steve A. was dropped the second Jeff got rave reviews during the tour w/ Def Leppard.... and someone from REO Speedwagon or Styx told Jeff that he was replaced, right???? It was highly unethical and devious of management to do.... and if I get confirmation that Neal was the mastermind behind it all, rather than the management itself, then Ill happily heap the blame his way.

Now tell me how SP wanting to get paid like a full fledged member, the subsequent gag orders and other BS constitutes him trying to protect the work he contributed heavily to.

Gag orders, like the one JSS and augeri signed? Sounds like standard practice for Journey.
I'm telling you to pay me as a fullfledged member and you don't tell me no, you don't take me to court, even though it's your band?
Conveniently though, while I'm getting paid, I never tour or sing Journey music in front of a paying audience. In short, I never compete against you for your audience.

I know Lora has debunked the non-compete clause idea but why would Neal give in so willingly then? He is supposed to be Mr. Badass yet he lets egomaniacal Perry tell him that he has to pay him even though it's his band?

None of it make sense.

[Escape81]

You didnt answer my question.... out of curiosity, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you trying to make an actual point that I'm just not seeing??? Im not sure who Lora is, but I take it that she's someone close to Steve P.?? If she debunked the idea that Steve was forced to not compete against Journey for ten years, then why bring it up at all?

[journeyrock]

Well, I agree it was created around Neal.....AND Greg, don't forget, but Neal had squat to do with it becoming one of the top bands other than his playing, and everyone else's talent in the band. It was Herbies baby.

My point is that everyone insinuates that Neal "made" the band, which he did not. And he should not be given all the credit for the success of "his band". We could go through all the old arguments of what would have happened if.......

Yes, he has every right to keep it going, and that's fine, but don't say "the band Neal made".

[steveo777]

You're joking, right??? There is no double standard on my end whatsoever...... I'm FAR more interested in the music these guys put out (ALL of them) rather than the personal soap opera between them...... what happened to Jeff and Steve A. WAS ridiculous, I agree. It's one thing to fire a singer or replace one, but HOW you do it is important. From my understanding, Steve A. was dropped the second Jeff got rave reviews during the tour w/ Def Leppard.... and someone from REO Speedwagon or Styx told Jeff that he was replaced, right???? It was highly unethical and devious of management to do.... and if I get confirmation that Neal was the mastermind behind it all, rather than the management itself, then Ill happily heap the blame his way.

Now tell me how SP wanting to get paid like a full fledged member, the subsequent gag orders and other BS constitutes him trying to protect the work he contributed heavily to.

Gag orders, like the one JSS and augeri signed? Sounds like standard practice for Journey.
I'm telling you to pay me as a fullfledged member and you don't tell me no, you don't take me to court, even though it's your band?
Conveniently though, while I'm getting paid, I never tour or sing Journey music in front of a paying audience. In short, I never compete against you for your audience.

I know Lora has debunked the non-compete clause idea but why would Neal give in so willingly then? He is supposed to be Mr. Badass yet he lets egomaniacal Perry tell him that he has to pay him even though it's his band?

None of it make sense.

Being paid proper royalties has nothing to do with whose band it is. The man's name is on the writing of a huge portion of their catalog. I'm sure his rights were legally protected and he got whatever royalties he had coming as a contingency written into his contract, don't ya think?

[Escape81]

BTM makes it clear that it was around Neal.... Gregg was just an accessory. And no he should not get ALL of the credit for "his band"..... Im pretty sure no one here has said that..... in fact, more people I see want to give ALL the credit to Steve, not Neal. I personally give most of the credit to Steve, but a substantial amount also needs to be given to Neal and Jonathan in my book....

[steveo777]

Well, I agree it was created around Neal.....AND Greg, don't forget, but Neal had squat to do with it becoming one of the top bands other than his playing, and everyone else's talent in the band. It was Herbies baby.

My point is that everyone insinuates that Neal "made" the band, which he did not. And he should not be given all the credit for the success of "his band". We could go through all the old arguments of what would have happened if.......

Yes, he has every right to keep it going, and that's fine, but don't say "the band Neal made".

I don't think anyone said Neal made the band, but he sure the hell ended up with it.

[Escape81]

I might have said that he made it.... journeyrock is right, he HELPED make it, but did not do it singlehandedly.

[perryswoman]

As he would later admit, looking back, that he would not have done it again.

It seems by that statement that Mr. Perry learned something from his ethic there, the others just keep repeating it.

I agree with you. I know many people who done something, where if they had it to do all over again, would have made a different decision. People can learn and grow from their mistakes. I also believe the other members of this band can do the same.

And that is where the difference with Perry and Schon lies.....Perry admits he was a prick at times and made a mistake Neal just says Fuck HIM were done!!!

Actually..... I think in the GQ interview, NS admits he was "no picnic" to be around (esp. when he was drinking)..... I think the apologies from SP have demonstrated that he has a measure of class to him...... as for NS "fuck you" comments, you should understand that given the problems with ROR and TBF, and his constant attempts to build that bridge again (not to mention his repeated invitations to Mr. P)..... and last but not least the rumors that SP was paid like a full fledged member from '98 to '08.... NS has EVERY RIGHT to be angry with SP.

I agree love them both but neither a picnic to live with I'm quite sure!!

[journeyrock]

BTM makes it clear that it was around Neal.... Gregg was just an accessory. And no he should not get ALL of the credit for "his band"..... Im pretty sure no one here has said that..... in fact, more people I see want to give ALL the credit to Steve, not Neal. I personally give most of the credit to Steve, but a substantial amount also needs to be given to Neal and Jonathan in my book....

I agree with that 100%. Without Jon's song writing, I don't think they would have gone as far as they did either. Every member of that band, except maybe Ross (imho) is a legend in their own right. I think it was a magical combination that will never be duplicated by any of them solo.

[Don]

You didnt answer my question.... out of curiosity, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you trying to make an actual point that I'm just not seeing??? Im not sure who Lora is, but I take it that she's someone close to Steve P.?? If she debunked the idea that Steve was forced to not compete against Journey for ten years, then why bring it up at all?

What was your question, how Steve was trying to protect the music? I think he has explained it ad nauseum his reasoning for the band not continuing on as Journey. Does it all make sense, no but they were his reasons none the less.

I brought up what Lora said, because no one is coming up with a good reason why Neal never went to court and even offered a challenge to Perry's demands. The non-compete thing is the only thing I can think of, despite what she said. As there were gag orders, we'll just have to wait out the statute of limitations I guess to see what really happened.

[Escape81]

As he would later admit, looking back, that he would not have done it again.

It seems by that statement that Mr. Perry learned something from his ethic there, the others just keep repeating it.

I agree with you. I know many people who done something, where if they had it to do all over again, would have made a different decision. People can learn and grow from their mistakes. I also believe the other members of this band can do the same.

And that is where the difference with Perry and Schon lies.....Perry admits he was a prick at times and made a mistake Neal just says Fuck HIM were done!!!

Actually..... I think in the GQ interview, NS admits he was "no picnic" to be around (esp. when he was drinking)..... I think the apologies from SP have demonstrated that he has a measure of class to him...... as for NS "fuck you" comments, you should understand that given the problems with ROR and TBF, and his constant attempts to build that bridge again (not to mention his repeated invitations to Mr. P)..... and last but not least the rumors that SP was paid like a full fledged member from '98 to '08.... NS has EVERY RIGHT to be angry with SP.

I agree love them both but neither a picnic to live with I'm quite sure!!

Amen! But thats okay...... sparring aside, I only care for their music..... if they were professors or lecturers of business ethics, then maybe I'd be more vocal with my concerns.... but....

[steveo777]

BTM makes it clear that it was around Neal.... Gregg was just an accessory. And no he should not get ALL of the credit for "his band"..... Im pretty sure no one here has said that..... in fact, more people I see want to give ALL the credit to Steve, not Neal. I personally give most of the credit to Steve, but a substantial amount also needs to be given to Neal and Jonathan in my book....

I agree with that 100%. Without Jon's song writing, I don't think they would have gone as far as they did either. Every member of that band, except maybe Ross (imho) is a legend in their own right. I think it was a magical combination that will never be duplicated by any of them solo.

Ross makes legendary faces.

[Don]

As he would later admit, looking back, that he would not have done it again.

It seems by that statement that Mr. Perry learned something from his ethic there, the others just keep repeating it.

I agree with you. I know many people who done something, where if they had it to do all over again, would have made a different decision. People can learn and grow from their mistakes. I also believe the other members of this band can do the same.

And that is where the difference with Perry and Schon lies.....Perry admits he was a prick at times and made a mistake Neal just says Fuck HIM were done!!!

Actually..... I think in the GQ interview, NS admits he was "no picnic" to be around (esp. when he was drinking)..... I think the apologies from SP have demonstrated that he has a measure of class to him...... as for NS "fuck you" comments, you should understand that given the problems with ROR and TBF, and his constant attempts to build that bridge again (not to mention his repeated invitations to Mr. P)..... and last but not least the rumors that SP was paid like a full fledged member from '98 to '08.... NS has EVERY RIGHT to be angry with SP.

I agree love them both but neither a picnic to live with I'm quite sure!!

Amen! But thats okay...... sparring aside, I only care for their music..... if they were professors or lecturers of business ethics, then maybe I'd be more vocal with my concerns.... but....

Are you familiar with Gideon by chance? You're not in Kentucky are you?

[steveo777]

As he would later admit, looking back, that he would not have done it again.

It seems by that statement that Mr. Perry learned something from his ethic there, the others just keep repeating it.

I agree with you. I know many people who done something, where if they had it to do all over again, would have made a different decision. People can learn and grow from their mistakes. I also believe the other members of this band can do the same.

And that is where the difference with Perry and Schon lies.....Perry admits he was a prick at times and made a mistake Neal just says Fuck HIM were done!!!

Actually..... I think in the GQ interview, NS admits he was "no picnic" to be around (esp. when he was drinking)..... I think the apologies from SP have demonstrated that he has a measure of class to him...... as for NS "fuck you" comments, you should understand that given the problems with ROR and TBF, and his constant attempts to build that bridge again (not to mention his repeated invitations to Mr. P)..... and last but not least the rumors that SP was paid like a full fledged member from '98 to '08.... NS has EVERY RIGHT to be angry with SP.

I agree love them both but neither a picnic to live with I'm quite sure!!

Amen! But thats okay...... sparring aside, I only care for their music..... if they were professors or lecturers of business ethics, then maybe I'd be more vocal with my concerns.... but....

Are you familiar with Gideon by chance? You're not in Kentucky are you?

Doh! That might be a "money shot".

[Escape81]

You didnt answer my question.... out of curiosity, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you trying to make an actual point that I'm just not seeing??? Im not sure who Lora is, but I take it that she's someone close to Steve P.?? If she debunked the idea that Steve was forced to not compete against Journey for ten years, then why bring it up at all?

What was your question, how Steve was trying to protect the music? I think he has explained it ad nauseum his reasoning for the band not continuing on as Journey. Does it all make sense, no but they were his reasons none the less.

I brought up what Lora said, because no one is coming up with a good reason why Neal never went to court and even offered a challenge to Perry's demands. The non-compete thing is the only thing I can think of, despite what she said. As there were gag orders, we'll just have to wait out the statute of limitations I guess to see what really happened.

Anyone can give reasons, especially ones that dont make sense! Like I said, there arent any double standards on my end.... I have no personal investment in this..... but I dont see anyone trying to support Steve P. in this instance doing a great job of proving their point...... just accept that he made some selfish moves (like Journey's management and Neal and Jon have) and move on!

[journeyrock]

I might have said that he made it.... journeyrock is right, he HELPED make it, but did not do it singlehandedly.

Thanks, I was trying to find that post.

[journeyrock]

You didnt answer my question.... out of curiosity, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you trying to make an actual point that I'm just not seeing??? Im not sure who Lora is, but I take it that she's someone close to Steve P.?? If she debunked the idea that Steve was forced to not compete against Journey for ten years, then why bring it up at all?

What was your question, how Steve was trying to protect the music? I think he has explained it ad nauseum his reasoning for the band not continuing on as Journey. Does it all make sense, no but they were his reasons none the less.
I brought up what Lora said, because no one is coming up with a good reason why Neal never went to court and even offered a challenge to Perry's demands. The non-compete thing is the only thing I can think of, despite what she said. As there were gag orders, we'll just have to wait out the statute of limitations I guess to see what really happened.

I think it all makes sense. Just look at the mess that has surrounded the Journey name and it's legacy since that. THAT is exactly what SP DIDN'T want to happen. He knew what would happen if Neal were at the realm. That is why he said if they continued on with Journey, there was no going back. He was trying to protect the "JOURNEY" name.

[portland]

As he would later admit, looking back, that he would not have done it again.

It seems by that statement that Mr. Perry learned something from his ethic there, the others just keep repeating it.

I agree with you. I know many people who done something, where if they had it to do all over again, would have made a different decision. People can learn and grow from their mistakes. I also believe the other members of this band can do the same.

And that is where the difference with Perry and Schon lies.....Perry admits he was a prick at times and made a mistake Neal just says Fuck HIM were done!!!

Actually..... I think in the GQ interview, NS admits he was "no picnic" to be around (esp. when he was drinking)..... I think the apologies from SP have demonstrated that he has a measure of class to him...... as for NS "fuck you" comments, you should understand that given the problems with ROR and TBF, and his constant attempts to build that bridge again (not to mention his repeated invitations to Mr. P)..... and last but not least the rumors that SP was paid like a full fledged member from '98 to '08.... NS has EVERY RIGHT to be angry with SP.

I agree love them both but neither a picnic to live with I'm quite sure!!

Amen! But thats okay...... sparring aside, I only care for their music..... if they were professors or lecturers of business ethics, then maybe I'd be more vocal with my concerns.... but....

Are you familiar with Gideon by chance? You're not in Kentucky are you?

Hmmmmmmmmmm I wonder???

[Escape81]

I might have said that he made it.... journeyrock is right, he HELPED make it, but did not do it singlehandedly.

Thanks, I was trying to find that post.

Anytime. Ive probably said it multiple times so....... my bad.

[journeyrock]

You didnt answer my question.... out of curiosity, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you trying to make an actual point that I'm just not seeing??? Im not sure who Lora is, but I take it that she's someone close to Steve P.?? If she debunked the idea that Steve was forced to not compete against Journey for ten years, then why bring it up at all?

What was your question, how Steve was trying to protect the music? I think he has explained it ad nauseum his reasoning for the band not continuing on as Journey. Does it all make sense, no but they were his reasons none the less.

I brought up what Lora said, because no one is coming up with a good reason why Neal never went to court and even offered a challenge to Perry's demands. The non-compete thing is the only thing I can think of, despite what she said. As there were gag orders, we'll just have to wait out the statute of limitations I guess to see what really happened.

Me too. I firmly believe that there was a no compete clause.

And that would also be a good "excuse" why Perry never performed or released anything during that time. He knew he couldn't tour or perform and not do Journey songs. And now, just after the end of that contract, Perry comes out and says he wants to put out a new cd.

[Jana]

You didnt answer my question.... out of curiosity, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you trying to make an actual point that I'm just not seeing??? Im not sure who Lora is, but I take it that she's someone close to Steve P.?? If she debunked the idea that Steve was forced to not compete against Journey for ten years, then why bring it up at all?

What was your question, how Steve was trying to protect the music? I think he has explained it ad nauseum his reasoning for the band not continuing on as Journey. Does it all make sense, no but they were his reasons none the less.

I brought up what Lora said, because no one is coming up with a good reason why Neal never went to court and even offered a challenge to Perry's demands. The non-compete thing is the only thing I can think of, despite what she said. As there were gag orders, we'll just have to wait out the statute of limitations I guess to see what really happened.

I don't get the non-compete you come up with. Perry would never have signed that unless he just flat-out didn't want to perform and didn't care anyway. I don't believe he would give that kind of control of his career up. Neal didn't go to court b/c litigation costs a fortune, and Perry wouldn't have gone without a fight. They had attorneys advising them, and I'm sure they were advised it was their best option unless they wanted to be tied up in litigation for years and years to come and not be able to move on, which there again they would have lost the momentum from the release of TBF. Lawsuits move at a snail's pace. It was like a divorce. Neither side were completely happy, but it was something they both could live with.

[steveo777]

So, Escape, do you know of any good proxies?