OFFICIAL NFL Week by Week Thread:

General Intelligent Discussion & One Thread About That Buttknuckle

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Postby Don » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:06 pm

Enigma869 wrote:
Gunbot wrote:Speaking of bad defense, How about Montana scoring 40 unanswered points against South Dakota State after trailing 48 -27 with five minutes left in the third quarter.

http://www.argusleader.com/article/2009 ... -past-SDSU



College football doesn't count, because that shit happens all the time in college football.


I remember the Eagles hanging 40 on the 49ers and everyone said the sky was falling. San Francisco turned around after that game and rolled everybody including the Chargers in the Super Bowl. I don't put much creedence into what happened tonight as everything can change in a heartbeat in the NFL.
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Postby YoungJRNY » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:08 pm

Enigma869 wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:John, I don't now if the Pats are that bad, you have Brady and Moss so there's hope. I'm just thinking the Saints might be the real deal, christ they look unbeatable tonight. This is the first Saint's game I've seen this season but damn they look impressive.


Honestly, it's not the end of the world and the talk of someone being inside of Brady and Belichick's head is moronic. This game had absolutely NOTHING to do with Brady or Belichick. The Patriots defense was fucking HORRID. One of the worst defensive displays I've EVER seen in the NFL, by any team. As of right now, the AFC still doesn't scare me. After the Colts and the Chargers, it's really a coin flip. Hell, Pittsburgh has lost three straight and their star receiver calling their QB a pussy on national TV and they're still alive for a playoff spot!


It's pretty much a washout at this point in both Conferences. It's the Vikes/Saints & Colts/Chargers right now that are the two dominating teams in the NFL. Who's in the NFC that can hold a candle to Saints or Vikes? Dallas? (Don't make me laugh) Arizona? Philadelphia? Green Bay? They can't protect their stud QB for the life of them. The Giants have become as pathetic as ANY team in the league.

The Colts can spot ANY team in the AFC combined 24 points and Manning could STILL find a way to beat you.
The Chargers at this point is romping everybody and I think they are actually scarier than the Colts at this point. Watch out for the Super Chargers, there's something about them right now.
The Bengals have looked sloppy all season, even in a 7-3 effort and can barely squeak by bad teams.
The Pats are 50/50 and with this defensive performance tonight, almost every team in the running can take it to them. The trend is that when they get into a physical game, they don't perform well (Jets, Broncos, Saints) and the magic of scoring 50 points a game is over and the defense is now forced to stop somebody.

Pittsburgh has dominated in every game played but can't hold a 4th quarter lead against a womens division. They lost to the Bears, the Bengals twice, the Chiefs and Ravens, and beat the Chargers, the Broncos, and the Vikings in honorable fashion. They have also been hit with the injury bug to KEY starters on both sides of the ball and can't cover on special teams.

The Broncos aren't going to survive too much longer and they are on their way to kissing the feet of SD like they do every year. They've come back down to Earth and will get handled from here on out.
The Jags are really the most pathetic team to ever grace a WC spot. They won't survive as well.

So other than the Saints, Vikes, Colts and Chargers, the rest of the league is looking up only to DREAM to compete with these teams as of right now.
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Postby Enigma869 » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:10 pm

Gunbot wrote:
I remember the Eagles hanging 40 on the 49ers and everyone said the sky was falling. San Francisco turned around after that game and rolled everybody including the Chargers in the Super Bowl. I don't put much creedence into what happened tonight as everything can change in a heartbeat in the NFL.


I remember that game quite well, and you're absolutely correct that things change week to week in the NFL. That said, the only way that I'll personally take the Patriots seriously as a legitimate playoff contender is if they run the table from here on out.
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Postby YoungJRNY » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:10 am

Regardless of record or who beat who, I'm using the tactic to who I think is the best teams in football, talent Vs talent.. in this weeks Power Rankings.

1. New Orleans Saints
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. San Diego Chargers
4. Indianapolis Colts
5. Green Bay Packers
6. New England Patriots
7. Dallas Cowboys
8. Philadelphia Eagles
9. Cincinnati Bengals
10. Arizona Cardinals
---------------------------------

On the fringe: Baltimore Ravens, Pittsburgh Steelers, Denver Broncos, Tennesee Titans, Atlanta Falcons, Jacksonville Jaguars
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Postby Ehwmatt » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:08 am

I've gotta admit, I thought the Saints wheels were going to come off in the face of an established dynasty like the Bradychick Patriots. Boy was I wrong. They looked like an undefeated team, just like the 07 Pats. The Colts have yet to look that good or even come close to it.
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Postby Rockindeano » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:57 am

7 Wishes wrote:The Patriots are not a very good team. I was wrong. They have NO chance in the AFC this year. Their CB's, FS's, and SS's are all horrendous. That's how they blew the game against the Colts.


NE's defense sucks. Why you think Belichek goes for it on almost every manageable 4th down? He knows they can't stop anybody.
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Postby Red13JoePa » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:02 am

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Postby Rockindeano » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:05 am

YoungJRNY wrote:Regardless of record or who beat who, I'm using the tactic to who I think is the best teams in football, talent Vs talent.. in this weeks Power Rankings.

1. New Orleans Saints
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. San Diego Chargers
4. Indianapolis Colts
5. Green Bay Packers
6. New England Patriots
7. Dallas Cowboys
8. Philadelphia Eagles
9. Cincinnati Bengals
10. Arizona Cardinals
---------------------------------



LOL at this list.

NE, GB, Dalla and Philly over Cincinnati? Are you fucking kidding me? Philly? The Packers? OMG. Dude, I like you and actually respect your football knowledge but your bias against Cincinnati is ridiculous. At least Pittsburgh is in it's rightful 12th place or so.
:)
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Postby lights1961 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:02 am

Rockindeano wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:Regardless of record or who beat who, I'm using the tactic to who I think is the best teams in football, talent Vs talent.. in this weeks Power Rankings.

1. New Orleans Saints
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. San Diego Chargers
4. Indianapolis Colts
5. Green Bay Packers
6. New England Patriots
7. Dallas Cowboys
8. Philadelphia Eagles
9. Cincinnati Bengals
10. Arizona Cardinals
---------------------------------



LOL at this list.

NE, GB, Dalla and Philly over Cincinnati? Are you fucking kidding me? Philly? The Packers? OMG. Dude, I like you and actually respect your football knowledge but your bias against Cincinnati is ridiculous. At least Pittsburgh is in it's rightful 12th place or so.
:)


I still am not convinced about GB yet... and they are not better than the Pats...


Colts and Saints keep winning... should be top 2 power teams... Vikings #3.
The saints have two great corners now MacKenize and Sharper... will be tough to beat in the playoffs... Would love to see one them or both intercept Favre in the championship game.. Would be SWEET revenge... former Packers intercepting a former Packer!!
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Postby Don » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:05 am

For the moment, I'm thinking Vikings - Chargers.
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Postby Enigma869 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:46 am

YoungJRNY wrote:Regardless of record or who beat who, I'm using the tactic to who I think is the best teams in football, talent Vs talent.. in this weeks Power Rankings.

1. New Orleans Saints
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. San Diego Chargers
4. Indianapolis Colts
5. Green Bay Packers
6. New England Patriots
7. Dallas Cowboys
8. Philadelphia Eagles
9. Cincinnati Bengals
10. Arizona Cardinals
---------------------------------

On the fringe: Baltimore Ravens, Pittsburgh Steelers, Denver Broncos, Tennesee Titans, Atlanta Falcons, Jacksonville Jaguars


I agree with your top two and would be STUNNED if that wasn't the NFC title game. The Chargers look awesome, but the Colts are undefeated and somehow manage to win games they shouldn't win. As for the Packers at 5...um, no! I'd rank Dallas ahead of them, talent wise. I'm not sold on Cincinatti, AT ALL, and don't think they would beat the Patriots in a playoff game. That said, based on current performances, I'd rank them ahead of the Patriots right now, even though nothing matters for another month.
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Postby lights1961 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:34 am

Enigma869 wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:Regardless of record or who beat who, I'm using the tactic to who I think is the best teams in football, talent Vs talent.. in this weeks Power Rankings.

1. New Orleans Saints
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. San Diego Chargers
4. Indianapolis Colts
5. Green Bay Packers
6. New England Patriots
7. Dallas Cowboys
8. Philadelphia Eagles
9. Cincinnati Bengals
10. Arizona Cardinals
---------------------------------

On the fringe: Baltimore Ravens, Pittsburgh Steelers, Denver Broncos, Tennesee Titans, Atlanta Falcons, Jacksonville Jaguars


I agree with your top two and would be STUNNED if that wasn't the NFC title game. The Chargers look awesome, but the Colts are undefeated and somehow manage to win games they shouldn't win. As for the Packers at 5...um, no! I'd rank Dallas ahead of them, talent wise. I'm not sold on Cincinatti, AT ALL, and don't think they would beat the Patriots in a playoff game. That said, based on current performances, I'd rank them ahead of the Patriots right now, even though nothing matters for another month.


GB is better than Dallas... they beat them on the field... and got close to shutting that offense out.
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Postby Don » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:37 am

lights1961 wrote:
Enigma869 wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:Regardless of record or who beat who, I'm using the tactic to who I think is the best teams in football, talent Vs talent.. in this weeks Power Rankings.

1. New Orleans Saints
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. San Diego Chargers
4. Indianapolis Colts
5. Green Bay Packers
6. New England Patriots
7. Dallas Cowboys
8. Philadelphia Eagles
9. Cincinnati Bengals
10. Arizona Cardinals
---------------------------------

On the fringe: Baltimore Ravens, Pittsburgh Steelers, Denver Broncos, Tennesee Titans, Atlanta Falcons, Jacksonville Jaguars


I agree with your top two and would be STUNNED if that wasn't the NFC title game. The Chargers look awesome, but the Colts are undefeated and somehow manage to win games they shouldn't win. As for the Packers at 5...um, no! I'd rank Dallas ahead of them, talent wise. I'm not sold on Cincinatti, AT ALL, and don't think they would beat the Patriots in a playoff game. That said, based on current performances, I'd rank them ahead of the Patriots right now, even though nothing matters for another month.


GB is better than Dallas... they beat them on the field... and got close to shutting that offense out.


GB is better than Dallas IF Rodgers plays extremely well. He seems to have a habit of holding onto the ball too long.
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Postby LordofDaRing » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:45 am

"Bandwagon Jumpers"...bwahahahahahahah, you guys must have Saints fans confused with the fans of "America's Team"....

"You're wrong about that, I live in Saints Country and these people are DIE~Hard Fans. They have waited a looooonnng time
for this team and they deserve every bit of joy that comes with it!!!
It's hard not to be happy for a die hard Saints Fan... "

Well said, I can recall the days when the Saints were the only team never to have won a playoff game. Its easy to be a good winner, for the people down here to stick with this program with the likes of owners like Meacom and Benson, draft disasters like Russel Exrleben and lets not forget that little natural disater we had a few years ago, says a lot about the fans.
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Postby Enigma869 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:51 am

lights1961 wrote:GB is better than Dallas... they beat them on the field.



Just because a team beats another team doesn't mean they're better. This is the NFL, and teams lose to teams they shouldn't lose to EVERY week. If I bought that logic, that means Kansas City is better than Pittburgh and Oakland is better than Cincinatti.
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Postby Rockindeano » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:04 am

lights1961 wrote:... and got close to shutting that offense(Dallas) out.


Dude, the Cowgirls scored 1, I repeat 1 lone TD against the vaunted Washington Redskins. Dallas' offense has about as much potency as a dude with no balls.
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Postby Rockindeano » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:05 am

Enigma869 wrote:
lights1961 wrote:GB is better than Dallas... they beat them on the field.



Just because a team beats another team doesn't mean they're better. This is the NFL, and teams lose to teams they shouldn't lose to EVERY week. If I bought that logic, that means Kansas City is better than Pittburgh and Oakland is better than Cincinatti.


And would you please learn how to spell Cincinnati? !!!
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Postby YoungJRNY » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:07 am

Rockindeano wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:Regardless of record or who beat who, I'm using the tactic to who I think is the best teams in football, talent Vs talent.. in this weeks Power Rankings.

1. New Orleans Saints
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. San Diego Chargers
4. Indianapolis Colts
5. Green Bay Packers
6. New England Patriots
7. Dallas Cowboys
8. Philadelphia Eagles
9. Cincinnati Bengals
10. Arizona Cardinals
---------------------------------



LOL at this list.

NE, GB, Dalla and Philly over Cincinnati? Are you fucking kidding me? Philly? The Packers? OMG. Dude, I like you and actually respect your football knowledge but your bias against Cincinnati is ridiculous. At least Pittsburgh is in it's rightful 12th place or so.
:)


Laugh all you want, this is how I feel things are ranked right now. Like I said, I don't care what the record indicates, or who beat who. This is strictly who I think deserves the rankings at this point, team wise on how they perform and how they do it, regardless of wins or losses. Like John said and I'm a firm believer in this that just because a good team loses to a bad team, doesn't mean that team's better overall.

ALL of those teams you've mentioned above would indeed kick the SNOT out of Cincy at this point. I've had the pleasure of watching Cincy mostly all year and ESP over the last couple weeks. Their offense is inept at the moment and breaking down. Palmer and company can barely move the ball and certainly can't put it in the endzone. Their defense still has holes, so I still really don't think they are THAT great and will be one of the weaker teams in the playoffs, IF NOT THE WEAKEST. They've struggled against Oak and even the Browns 2 weeks in a row. They looked as bad as the Steelers looked in their game with each other as well, so I'm not sold.

Green Bay, believe it or not is hot right now, and I told Rick a couple weeks ago to NOT give up on this squad. In my opinion, they are a completely different looking team and they are starting to come around and will be a team that noone would want to face in the playoffs. All of those sacks on Rodgers is still a concern, but he is starting to use his ability and scorch teams when they blitz and he can certainly make you pay. Their defense is also playing much better and is limiting mistakes. I like GB a lot right now.

Pittsburgh, is tied for 7th as of right now for the WC and I expect them to at least land the 5th spot when it's all over. I expect them to win out (Oakland, @ Cleve, Balty, and @ Miami) or at least lose one more. 10 or 11 will get them in.
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Postby Rockindeano » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:15 am

I could care less who beats who as far as rankings go.

Let's take GB. Three wins in 12 days. great. Dallas at home, SF and Detroit. Fuck, stop the presses. Lets go back four weeks and they get the snot kicked out of them by Tampa Bay. GB is a fraud.

Dallas is an even bigger fraud. The worst offense in the NFL.

Philadelphia is even worse. Westbrook is hurt, McNabb is an old man and they can't score for shit.

As for Cincinnati, Cedric Benson makes a huge difference and he should return next week. They are struggling but to say their Defense has holes? No way dude. Cincinnati's defense has won them a lot of games this year.
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Postby Enigma869 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:17 am

Rockindeano wrote:And would you please learn how to spell Cincinnati? !!!


Sorry dude. Spelling the name of Cincinatti isn't much of a priority in my life. I'm a pretty solid speller but fuck up spellings on little used words that look too fucking goofy to spell :shock:
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Postby YoungJRNY » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:19 am

Rockindeano wrote:
lights1961 wrote:... and got close to shutting that offense(Dallas) out.


Dude, the Cowgirls scored 1, I repeat 1 lone TD against the vaunted Washington Redskins. Dallas' offense has about as much potency as a dude with no balls.


But yet, the team you're pimping, the '85 Bears (Cincinnati Bengals) has scored only 1, I repeat 1 touchdown against the vaunted Cleveland Browns defense, and only 2 (two Palmer runs) against Oakland. Not much better than the Dallas team with no balls.
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Postby YoungJRNY » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:23 am

Rockindeano wrote:I could care less who beats who as far as rankings go.

Let's take GB. Three wins in 12 days. great. Dallas at home, SF and Detroit. Fuck, stop the presses. Lets go back four weeks and they get the snot kicked out of them by Tampa Bay. GB is a fraud.

Dallas is an even bigger fraud. The worst offense in the NFL.

Philadelphia is even worse. Westbrook is hurt, McNabb is an old man and they can't score for shit.

As for Cincinnati, Cedric Benson makes a huge difference and he should return next week. They are struggling but to say their Defense has holes? No way dude. Cincinnati's defense has won them a lot of games this year.


Until Cincinnati can hold their own in a playoff win, and actually finish off a solid season down the stretch, I'm not sold. They STILL have games @ SD and @ Minny back to back weeks and I believe they will get murdered in each of those meetings. You can just feel them hitting a wall, and when you give up 10 points against the Raiders in the last minute, and if Brady Quinn could actually throw an accurate pass past 4 yards, the Browns could of pulled that out as well.
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Postby 7 Wishes » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:38 am

The Patriots, even in defensive disarray, are a much better team than the Bungles.

The Pats are only vunerable against team with multiple deep threats AND a great QB (notwithstanding their losses to the Jets and Broncos before Brady got his legs back) - hence the losses to the Saints and Colts. I would take the Pats by a substantial margin over Cincy whether at home or on the road.

I'm also not sold on the Chargers. They can't win big games.
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Postby Rockindeano » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:59 am

7 Wishes wrote:I'm also not sold on the Chargers. They can't win big games.


Ask Indy about that.
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Postby larryfromnextdoor » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:20 am

i love this thread! good stuff..
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Postby 7 Wishes » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:05 am

The Chargers have exactly one big win since their referee-aided trip to be mauled by the Niners in the Super Bowl in the mid-90's. They are a bunch of chokers. But I am glad they beat the Colts last year - Peyton Manning is one referee-rigged AFC Championship "win" against the Pats from being the only Manning brother without a ring.
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Postby YoungJRNY » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:20 am

7 Wishes wrote:The Chargers have exactly one big win since their referee-aided trip to be mauled by the Niners in the Super Bowl in the mid-90's. They are a bunch of chokers. But I am glad they beat the Colts last year - Peyton Manning is one referee-rigged AFC Championship "win" against the Pats from being the only Manning brother without a ring.


#1 The Chargers of '94 had no business sharing the field with the 49'ers in Super Bowl 29. Should of been Steelers/9'ers and even though the 9'ers were a dynasty, the Steelers would of put up atleast a fight. Yet, another Cowher led, home Championship loss. That said, the Chargers, right now, are the AFC's best team to go into Indy and beat them, something they showed they could do as early as last season and that's beat Manning.

#2 I think we're seeing a theme from you 7-wishes :lol: The referee thing gets old sometimes and if you want to play that card, then ANY team that wins on the grid iron should not be commended since there are many judgmental calls in every football game in existence. It's a trend, if a team loses, the refs handed the winning team the game. Even though there are so-so calls, the refs have gotten better at letting the players play in a crucial situation at the end of the game, unless a team does a legitimate and unworthy thing to jeopardize their team that could in fact decide the outcome.

I think we all need to come to realize that calls, bad or good are part of the game and shouldn't be made into ANY excuse. We all do it. There's plenty of opportunities that a team can handle and put themselves in better position and 2 or 3 calls won't make a difference.
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Postby Ehwmatt » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:24 am

YoungJRNY wrote:
7 Wishes wrote:The Chargers have exactly one big win since their referee-aided trip to be mauled by the Niners in the Super Bowl in the mid-90's. They are a bunch of chokers. But I am glad they beat the Colts last year - Peyton Manning is one referee-rigged AFC Championship "win" against the Pats from being the only Manning brother without a ring.


#2 I think we're seeing a theme from you 7-wishes :lol: The referee thing gets old sometimes and if you want to play that card, then ANY team that wins on the grid iron should not be commended since there are many judgmental calls in every football game in existence. It's a trend, if a team loses, the refs handed the winning team the game. Even though there are so-so calls, the refs have gotten better at letting the players play in a crucial situation at the end of the game, unless a team does a legitimate and unworthy thing to jeopardize their team that could in fact decide the outcome.

I think we all need to come to realize that calls, bad or good are part of the game and shouldn't be made into ANY excuse. We all do it. There's plenty of opportunities that a team can handle and put themselves in better position and 2 or 3 calls won't make a difference.


Well said, with the exception of making sure that the refs have integrity (Exhibit A: Tim Donaghy of the NBA). I myself get so annoyed at Cavs fanboys who sit there and bitch about how LeBron didn't get that call at the end of the game to try and win with two foul shots or when LeBron was hacked all night and got no calls blah blah blah. Yeah, they miss some calls, and I've seen some truly horrendous games, but it's just so tiring to sit there and analyze every call in slow motion.

Picture some nerd sitting in his mom's basement, one hand on his limp, 3 inch cock, one hand on the mouse on YouTube going slo-mo on each call back and forth back and forth and posting to blogs about the unfairness of it all :roll:
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Postby YoungJRNY » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:36 am

Ehwmatt wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:
7 Wishes wrote:The Chargers have exactly one big win since their referee-aided trip to be mauled by the Niners in the Super Bowl in the mid-90's. They are a bunch of chokers. But I am glad they beat the Colts last year - Peyton Manning is one referee-rigged AFC Championship "win" against the Pats from being the only Manning brother without a ring.


#2 I think we're seeing a theme from you 7-wishes :lol: The referee thing gets old sometimes and if you want to play that card, then ANY team that wins on the grid iron should not be commended since there are many judgmental calls in every football game in existence. It's a trend, if a team loses, the refs handed the winning team the game. Even though there are so-so calls, the refs have gotten better at letting the players play in a crucial situation at the end of the game, unless a team does a legitimate and unworthy thing to jeopardize their team that could in fact decide the outcome.

I think we all need to come to realize that calls, bad or good are part of the game and shouldn't be made into ANY excuse. We all do it. There's plenty of opportunities that a team can handle and put themselves in better position and 2 or 3 calls won't make a difference.


Well said, with the exception of making sure that the refs have integrity (Exhibit A: Tim Donaghy of the NBA). I myself get so annoyed at Cavs fanboys who sit there and bitch about how LeBron didn't get that call at the end of the game to try and win with two foul shots or when LeBron was hacked all night and got no calls blah blah blah. Yeah, they miss some calls, and I've seen some truly horrendous games, but it's just so tiring to sit there and analyze every call in slow motion.

Picture some nerd sitting in his mom's basement, one hand on his limp, 3 inch cock, one hand on the mouse on YouTube going slo-mo on each call back and forth back and forth and posting to blogs about the unfairness of it all :roll:


Can we picture a chick fondling her breasts instead? :shock: 8)

It's really walking a fine line when trashing refs. These guys, in my opinion, in ANY sport, esp football have a TOUGH job. Take Hoculi for instance, for YEARS he was considered one of the best ref's in the game, but that ALL changed in that Denver game last season on that muffed call that gave the Broncos the win. (Cutler's fumble ruled incomplete.) He went on to make a couple more horrid calls that season and his rep has changed.

Things happen so fast and to be pin point on EVERYTHING is simply impossible, but I must say they do a HELLUVA job at times of what the human eye can actually catch with grown men.. beasts.. running full speed on a field. I can't tell you how many times I've thrown my hat at the T.V from what I thought was a bad call, but sometimes I calm down once they make a call against the other team, it's just the nature of the game and also being human IMO. Refs do all they can do, and a game should NEVER come down to a blown call.

I'm sure the NFL has their cry babies that go into NFL off season meetings and suggest to use REPLAY to overturn penalties. :roll:
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Postby 7 Wishes » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:08 am

Ehwmatt wrote:Picture some nerd sitting in his mom's basement, one hand on his limp, 3 inch cock, one hand on the mouse on YouTube going slo-mo on each call back and forth back and forth and posting to blogs about the unfairness of it all :roll:


I take offense to that. I live in the ATTIC, and mine is TWO inches, not THREE. Thank you very much.
But around town, it was well known...when they got home at night
Their fat and psychopathic wives
Would thrash them within inches of their lives!
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