super bowl add featuring Tebow...

[Ehwmatt]

Religious people can be so god damn judgmental. Here in France we have separated the church and state, and that's how it should be. Any kind of religious marks, bracelets or whatever is illegal in the school for example. Why's that? To avoid any kind of religious moral or "rules" into the citizens life - so that they can decide for them self whether or not they want to have an abortion or whatever. It's a personal choice, and not something some indoctrinated Christian will and can decide for others than them self.

Uh yeah, we have all those same things here, for better or worse.

[bluejeangirl76]

Religious people can be so god damn judgmental. Here in France we have separated the church and state, and that's how it should be. Any kind of religious marks, bracelets or whatever is illegal in the school for example. Why's that? To avoid any kind of religious moral or "rules" into the citizens life - so that they can decide for them self whether or not they want to have an abortion or whatever. It's a personal choice, and not something some indoctrinated Christian will and can decide for others than them self.

Uh yeah, we have all those same things here, for better or worse.

We allegedly have them. We don't usually go to the bother of enforcing them.

[Red13JoePa]

Who are you guys to decide what is right and not for someone else? That's retarded!

Who am I?
The unsilent majority. No go back to trying get national honors and commendations for Ira Einhorn and Mumia Abu Jamal, will you?

[RossValoryRocks]

Who are you guys to decide what is right and not for someone else? That's retarded!

Well after Two world wars that WE in the US had to save your asses, what room do you have to call any of us retarded?

It happens all the time...personally I think I pay to much in taxes...but someone else decided that have to pay that...Society decides all the time what is right and wrong for the individual, whether we like it or not and morals change over the generations, so what was legal is now illegal and vice versa.

But in ALL cases the right of a human being to life has been held as the #1 right, the question in the abortion debate isn't if it is right or wrong, but when does it become a human.


Once we figure that out, ( ) which we will NEVER do, then we can truly tackle the abortion issue.

All of that said...I think the government should be as minimally invasive as possible, this include things like gay marriage, onerus taxes, abortion etc etc.

So in the general principal of the thing I agree with you...that telling someone else what to do with their body, money, love life is pretty retarded.

[RossValoryRocks]

Who are you guys to decide what is right and not for someone else? That's retarded!

Well after Two world wars that WE in the US had to save your asses, what room do you have to call any of us retarded?

It happens all the time...personally I think I pay to much in taxes...but someone else decided that have to pay that...Society decides all the time what is right and wrong for the individual, whether we like it or not and morals change over the generations, so what was legal is now illegal and vice versa.

But in ALL cases the right of a human being to life has been held as the #1 right, the question in the abortion debate isn't if it is right or wrong, but when does it become a human.


Once we figure that out, ( ) which we will NEVER do, then we can truly tackle the abortion issue.

All of that said...I think the government should be as minimally invasive as possible, this include things like gay marriage, onerus taxes, abortion etc etc.

So in the general principal of the thing I agree with you...that telling someone else what to do with their body, money, love life is pretty retarded.

[Red13JoePa]

telling someone else what to do with their body, money, love life is pretty retarded.

I would agree, RVR, if I were telling them for sanctimonious reasons and just for the sake of lording it over them.

I tell them for the sake of the unborn children that are considered so expendable.

[artist4perry]

Religious people can be so god damn judgmental. Here in France we have separated the church and state, and that's how it should be. Any kind of religious marks, bracelets or whatever is illegal in the school for example. Why's that? To avoid any kind of religious moral or "rules" into the citizens life - so that they can decide for them self whether or not they want to have an abortion or whatever. It's a personal choice, and not something some indoctrinated Christian will and can decide for others than them self.

Uh yeah, we have all those same things here, for better or worse.

Did you know the phrase "Seperation of Church and State" comes from a private letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Babtist Association? It is not a law, by line, or ammendment. It is spoken of as though it is law by quite a few people who are quite ignorant of what our laws are.

As for schools, no it is not allowed to be taught in school. But I do hope our teachers are moral people for children to learn from. How to be a good citizen, how to treat others........most of our laws were based on Christian teachings.

Many Christians forget important teachings of Christ when it comes to these things too. Loving your neighbor as yourself. Not commiting murder.....including abortionists, to not be cruel and viscious at abortion clinics..........screaming at girls going in, calin people names, being cruel and unkind for any reason. Forgiveness ; not Judge, Jury, and exocutioner.

Love your enemies.............this being the hardest thing I think to do.

Oh and not all anti abortion people are christians. So do you dislike anti abortion or just Christians in general. Just because someone calls themself a Christian, does not make them one. You have to try to be Christ like. That is loveing.

[parfait]

Religious people can be so god damn judgmental. Here in France we have separated the church and state, and that's how it should be. Any kind of religious marks, bracelets or whatever is illegal in the school for example. Why's that? To avoid any kind of religious moral or "rules" into the citizens life - so that they can decide for them self whether or not they want to have an abortion or whatever. It's a personal choice, and not something some indoctrinated Christian will and can decide for others than them self.

Uh yeah, we have all those same things here, for better or worse.

Did you know the phrase "Seperation of Church and State" comes from a private letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Babtist Association? It is not a law, by line, or ammendment. It is spoken of as though it is law by quite a few people who are quite ignorant of what our laws are.

As for schools, no it is not allowed to be taught in school. But I do hope our teachers are moral people for children to learn from. How to be a good citizen, how to treat others........most of our laws were based on Christian teachings.

Many Christians forget important teachings of Christ when it comes to these things too. Loving your neighbor as yourself. Not commiting murder.....including abortionists, to not be cruel and viscious at abortion clinics..........screaming at girls going in, calin people names, being cruel and unkind for any reason. Forgiveness ; not Judge, Jury, and exocutioner.

Love your enemies.............this being the hardest thing I think to do.

Oh and not all anti abortion people are christians. So do you dislike anti abortion or just Christians in general. Just because someone calls themself a Christian, does not make them one. You have to try to be Christ like. That is loveing.

SvR: I agree with you, man.

I won't turn this into a religious debate, cause that always turns into a shitfest, but seriously artist4perry: These things that you call "Christian morals and values, are nothing but genetically and evolutionary passed down abilities, and common sense. I'm going to quote my man Richard Dawkins:

Over the centuries, we've moved on from Scripture to accumulate precepts of ethical, legal and moral philosophy. We've evolved a liberal consensus of what we regard as underpinnings of decent society, such as the idea that we don't approve of slavery or discrimination on the grounds of race or sex, that we respect free speech and the rights of the individual. All of these things that have become second nature to our morals today owe very little to religion, and mostly have been won in opposition to the teeth of religion.

[artist4perry]

Religious people can be so god damn judgmental. Here in France we have separated the church and state, and that's how it should be. Any kind of religious marks, bracelets or whatever is illegal in the school for example. Why's that? To avoid any kind of religious moral or "rules" into the citizens life - so that they can decide for them self whether or not they want to have an abortion or whatever. It's a personal choice, and not something some indoctrinated Christian will and can decide for others than them self.

Uh yeah, we have all those same things here, for better or worse.

Did you know the phrase "Seperation of Church and State" comes from a private letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Babtist Association? It is not a law, by line, or ammendment. It is spoken of as though it is law by quite a few people who are quite ignorant of what our laws are.

As for schools, no it is not allowed to be taught in school. But I do hope our teachers are moral people for children to learn from. How to be a good citizen, how to treat others........most of our laws were based on Christian teachings.

Many Christians forget important teachings of Christ when it comes to these things too. Loving your neighbor as yourself. Not commiting murder.....including abortionists, to not be cruel and viscious at abortion clinics..........screaming at girls going in, calin people names, being cruel and unkind for any reason. Forgiveness ; not Judge, Jury, and exocutioner.

Love your enemies.............this being the hardest thing I think to do.

Oh and not all anti abortion people are christians. So do you dislike anti abortion or just Christians in general. Just because someone calls themself a Christian, does not make them one. You have to try to be Christ like. That is loveing.

SvR: I agree with you, man.

I won't turn this into a religious debate, cause that always turns into a shitfest, but seriously artist4perry: These things that you call "Christian morals and values, are nothing but genetically and evolutionary passed down abilities, and common sense. I'm going to quote my man Richard Dawkins:

Over the centuries, we've moved on from Scripture to accumulate precepts of ethical, legal and moral philosophy. We've evolved a liberal consensus of what we regard as underpinnings of decent society, such as the idea that we don't approve of slavery or discrimination on the grounds of race or sex, that we respect free speech and the rights of the individual. All of these things that have become second nature to our morals today owe very little to religion, and mostly have been won in opposition to the teeth of religion.[/i]

Well, I guess we will have to differ on the origins of morallity. But truely, my point being, if one claims to be a Christian, one must be Christ like. And no gentler, kinder, more giving man was ever born in my oppinion. And one could never go wrong following his true message of love for mankind. I have heard that arguement before. But I will remain, delusional and keep my faith, and my love for man. I am human and very flawed. But my faith sustains me in hard times and good. Teaches me to strive for a better way to be. And Parfait, I am not trying to covert anyone, just making some statements. I will not debate Christianity with you. I will not be convinced by any arguements you have. You see, I have nature to show me his glory. His handiwork is all around. I won't debate his existance with one who's mind is closed. But understand, I am just saying if one has Christian values, they won't kill a doctor, or act ugly like those weird Babtists who yell and scream at funerals and abortion clinics. That is an act of hatefulness, and ugliness that is far from the teachings of Jesus. That was my point.

[Rhiannon]

telling someone else what to do with their body, money, love life is pretty retarded.

I would agree, RVR, if I were telling them for sanctimonious reasons and just for the sake of lording it over them.

I tell them for the sake of the unborn children that are considered so expendable.

I think, in the cases where it isn't about survival or medically necessary, the whole "don't tell me what to do with my body" thing is a double standard. Some (Note: *SOME*... not ALL, not MOST, but SOME) that throw the my body my choice thing out there don't realize that some (again, SOME) of us are shaking our heads. You don't want someone to tell you what to do with your body, yet you're going to destroy someone else's? Someone who can't speak for themselves nor defend themselves? I think most of the problem between getting Lifers & Choicers together is understanding that someone needs to be a voice for the voiceless.

That's all.

[artist4perry]

telling someone else what to do with their body, money, love life is pretty retarded.

I would agree, RVR, if I were telling them for sanctimonious reasons and just for the sake of lording it over them.

I tell them for the sake of the unborn children that are considered so expendable.

I think, in the cases where it isn't about survival or medically necessary, the whole "don't tell me what to do with my body" thing is a double standard. Some (Note: *SOME*... not ALL, not MOST, but SOME) that throw the my body my choice thing out there don't realize that some (again, SOME) of us are shaking our heads. You don't want someone to tell you what to do with your body, yet you're going to destroy someone else's? Someone who can't speak for themselves nor defend themselves? I think most of the problem between getting Lifers & Choicers together is understanding that someone needs to be a voice for the voiceless.

That's all.

A nice way to put it. It is a life with no voice.

[parfait]

Religious people can be so god damn judgmental. Here in France we have separated the church and state, and that's how it should be. Any kind of religious marks, bracelets or whatever is illegal in the school for example. Why's that? To avoid any kind of religious moral or "rules" into the citizens life - so that they can decide for them self whether or not they want to have an abortion or whatever. It's a personal choice, and not something some indoctrinated Christian will and can decide for others than them self.

Uh yeah, we have all those same things here, for better or worse.

Did you know the phrase "Seperation of Church and State" comes from a private letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Babtist Association? It is not a law, by line, or ammendment. It is spoken of as though it is law by quite a few people who are quite ignorant of what our laws are.

As for schools, no it is not allowed to be taught in school. But I do hope our teachers are moral people for children to learn from. How to be a good citizen, how to treat others........most of our laws were based on Christian teachings.

Many Christians forget important teachings of Christ when it comes to these things too. Loving your neighbor as yourself. Not commiting murder.....including abortionists, to not be cruel and viscious at abortion clinics..........screaming at girls going in, calin people names, being cruel and unkind for any reason. Forgiveness ; not Judge, Jury, and exocutioner.

Love your enemies.............this being the hardest thing I think to do.

Oh and not all anti abortion people are christians. So do you dislike anti abortion or just Christians in general. Just because someone calls themself a Christian, does not make them one. You have to try to be Christ like. That is loveing.

SvR: I agree with you, man.

I won't turn this into a religious debate, cause that always turns into a shitfest, but seriously artist4perry: These things that you call "Christian morals and values, are nothing but genetically and evolutionary passed down abilities, and common sense. I'm going to quote my man Richard Dawkins:

Over the centuries, we've moved on from Scripture to accumulate precepts of ethical, legal and moral philosophy. We've evolved a liberal consensus of what we regard as underpinnings of decent society, such as the idea that we don't approve of slavery or discrimination on the grounds of race or sex, that we respect free speech and the rights of the individual. All of these things that have become second nature to our morals today owe very little to religion, and mostly have been won in opposition to the teeth of religion.[/i]

Well, I guess we will have to differ on the origins of morallity. But truely, my point being, if one claims to be a Christian, one must be Christ like. And no gentler, kinder, more giving man was ever born in my oppinion. And one could never go wrong following his true message of love for mankind. I have heard that arguement before. But I will remain, delusional and keep my faith, and my love for man. I am human and very flawed. But my faith sustains me in hard times and good. Teaches me to strive for a better way to be. And Parfait, I am not trying to covert anyone, just making some statements. I will not debate Christianity with you. I will not be convinced by any arguements you have. You see, I have nature to show me his glory. His handiwork is all around. I won't debate his existance with one who's mind is closed. But understand, I am just saying if one has Christian values, they won't kill a doctor, or act ugly like those weird Babtists who yell and scream at funerals and abortion clinics. That is an act of hatefulness, and ugliness that is far from the teachings of Jesus. That was my point.

I'm not trying to turn you - you're free to have faith in whatever you want, if that is Jesus or the easter bunny Have a great weekend!

I think, in the cases where it isn't about survival or medically necessary, the whole "don't tell me what to do with my body" thing is a double standard. Some (Note: *SOME*... not ALL, not MOST, but SOME) that throw the my body my choice thing out there don't realize that some (again, SOME) of us are shaking our heads. You don't want someone to tell you what to do with your body, yet you're going to destroy someone else's? Someone who can't speak for themselves nor defend themselves? I think most of the problem between getting Lifers & Choicers together is understanding that someone needs to be a voice for the voiceless.

That's all.

You can shake your head as much as you want. It doesn't change the fact that it can't speak or defend itself cause it's... a fetus! The usual last week one can take an abortion is the 22nd, and the baby can't even feel pain until the third trimester ( 28-42)

Please don't start talking about what is medically necessary when you clearly doesn't know what you're talking about. There's a reason no one can remember anything from their early childhood or even fetus period, and you know why? Cause a fetus has no kind of brain function as a child or adult has.

[artist4perry]

Religious people can be so god damn judgmental. Here in France we have separated the church and state, and that's how it should be. Any kind of religious marks, bracelets or whatever is illegal in the school for example. Why's that? To avoid any kind of religious moral or "rules" into the citizens life - so that they can decide for them self whether or not they want to have an abortion or whatever. It's a personal choice, and not something some indoctrinated Christian will and can decide for others than them self.

Uh yeah, we have all those same things here, for better or worse.

Did you know the phrase "Seperation of Church and State" comes from a private letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Babtist Association? It is not a law, by line, or ammendment. It is spoken of as though it is law by quite a few people who are quite ignorant of what our laws are.

As for schools, no it is not allowed to be taught in school. But I do hope our teachers are moral people for children to learn from. How to be a good citizen, how to treat others........most of our laws were based on Christian teachings.

Many Christians forget important teachings of Christ when it comes to these things too. Loving your neighbor as yourself. Not commiting murder.....including abortionists, to not be cruel and viscious at abortion clinics..........screaming at girls going in, calin people names, being cruel and unkind for any reason. Forgiveness ; not Judge, Jury, and exocutioner.

Love your enemies.............this being the hardest thing I think to do.

Oh and not all anti abortion people are christians. So do you dislike anti abortion or just Christians in general. Just because someone calls themself a Christian, does not make them one. You have to try to be Christ like. That is loveing.

SvR: I agree with you, man.

I won't turn this into a religious debate, cause that always turns into a shitfest, but seriously artist4perry: These things that you call "Christian morals and values, are nothing but genetically and evolutionary passed down abilities, and common sense. I'm going to quote my man Richard Dawkins:

Over the centuries, we've moved on from Scripture to accumulate precepts of ethical, legal and moral philosophy. We've evolved a liberal consensus of what we regard as underpinnings of decent society, such as the idea that we don't approve of slavery or discrimination on the grounds of race or sex, that we respect free speech and the rights of the individual. All of these things that have become second nature to our morals today owe very little to religion, and mostly have been won in opposition to the teeth of religion.[/i]

Well, I guess we will have to differ on the origins of morallity. But truely, my point being, if one claims to be a Christian, one must be Christ like. And no gentler, kinder, more giving man was ever born in my oppinion. And one could never go wrong following his true message of love for mankind. I have heard that arguement before. But I will remain, delusional and keep my faith, and my love for man. I am human and very flawed. But my faith sustains me in hard times and good. Teaches me to strive for a better way to be. And Parfait, I am not trying to covert anyone, just making some statements. I will not debate Christianity with you. I will not be convinced by any arguements you have. You see, I have nature to show me his glory. His handiwork is all around. I won't debate his existance with one who's mind is closed. But understand, I am just saying if one has Christian values, they won't kill a doctor, or act ugly like those weird Babtists who yell and scream at funerals and abortion clinics. That is an act of hatefulness, and ugliness that is far from the teachings of Jesus. That was my point.

I'm not trying to turn you - you're free to have faith in whatever you want, if that is Jesus or the easter bunny Have a great weekend!

I think, in the cases where it isn't about survival or medically necessary, the whole "don't tell me what to do with my body" thing is a double standard. Some (Note: *SOME*... not ALL, not MOST, but SOME) that throw the my body my choice thing out there don't realize that some (again, SOME) of us are shaking our heads. You don't want someone to tell you what to do with your body, yet you're going to destroy someone else's? Someone who can't speak for themselves nor defend themselves? I think most of the problem between getting Lifers & Choicers together is understanding that someone needs to be a voice for the voiceless.

That's all.

You can shake your head as much as you want. It doesn't change the fact that it can't speak or defend itself cause it's... a fetus! The usual last week one can take an abortion is the 22nd, and the baby can't even feel pain until the third trimester ( 28-42)

Please don't start talking about what is medically necessary when you clearly doesn't know what you're talking about. There's a reason no one can remember anything from their early childhood or even fetus period, and you know why? Cause a fetus has no kind of brain function as a child or adult has.

That is what you tell yourself..........but your not a fetus...... a desensitized word to get over the fact that it is a child. It is not a puppy, a watermellon, or spam. If it is wanted the mommy calls it baby. And folks are happy of its existence. And congradulate the family on the new BABY. Fetus is what we call the disposable children.

[artist4perry]

Getting tired of the discussion. Basicly I still like each of you, even if I do not agree with all of you. I do think it is conveinent to either demonize people who struggle with such a choice, or to minimalize the value of an unborn child.

As I said, it is sad for all involved.

[RossValoryRocks]

You can shake your head as much as you want. It doesn't change the fact that it can't speak or defend itself cause it's... a fetus! The usual last week one can take an abortion is the 22nd, and the baby can't even feel pain until the third trimester ( 28-42)

Please don't start talking about what is medically necessary when you clearly doesn't know what you're talking about. There's a reason no one can remember anything from their early childhood or even fetus period, and you know why? Cause a fetus has no kind of brain function as a child or adult has.

Uh...can't feel pain???

I good friend of mine works in a neonate ICU where they have had children born under your supposed 28 week line and believe me when I tell you those children can feel pain.

The most preterm baby to survive is 21 weeks...a little girl by the name of Amillia Taylor. Half of all baby born at week 25 will survive, and lead normal and happy lives.

You are now talking out of your ass. Impressive, usually you froggy folks only talk around your cigarette.

And your usual last week thing is bullshit too, well maybe in France, but still only 13 states have a limit on the time an abortion can be performed.

I agree that the government shouldn't tell a woman what to do...but I still think abortion is morally wrong and your claims are nothing but horseshit designed to justify your view point.

Using horseshit to justify a view point is stupid. Horseshit is a fertilizer, not a method to bolster an intellectual position.

[AlteredDNA]

I think, in the cases where it isn't about survival or medically necessary, the whole "don't tell me what to do with my body" thing is a double standard. Some (Note: *SOME*... not ALL, not MOST, but SOME) that throw the my body my choice thing out there don't realize that some (again, SOME) of us are shaking our heads. You don't want someone to tell you what to do with your body, yet you're going to destroy someone else's? Someone who can't speak for themselves nor defend themselves? I think most of the problem between getting Lifers & Choicers together is understanding that someone needs to be a voice for the voiceless.

That's all.

You can shake your head as much as you want. It doesn't change the fact that it can't speak or defend itself cause it's... a fetus! The usual last week one can take an abortion is the 22nd, and the baby can't even feel pain until the third trimester ( 28-42)

Please don't start talking about what is medically necessary when you clearly doesn't know what you're talking about. There's a reason no one can remember anything from their early childhood or even fetus period, and you know why? Cause a fetus has no kind of brain function as a child or adult has.

So if someone, or something as you see it, cannot speak or defend itself, it's ok to snuff it out?

wow...

[RossValoryRocks]

I think, in the cases where it isn't about survival or medically necessary, the whole "don't tell me what to do with my body" thing is a double standard. Some (Note: *SOME*... not ALL, not MOST, but SOME) that throw the my body my choice thing out there don't realize that some (again, SOME) of us are shaking our heads. You don't want someone to tell you what to do with your body, yet you're going to destroy someone else's? Someone who can't speak for themselves nor defend themselves? I think most of the problem between getting Lifers & Choicers together is understanding that someone needs to be a voice for the voiceless.

That's all.

You can shake your head as much as you want. It doesn't change the fact that it can't speak or defend itself cause it's... a fetus! The usual last week one can take an abortion is the 22nd, and the baby can't even feel pain until the third trimester ( 28-42)

Please don't start talking about what is medically necessary when you clearly doesn't know what you're talking about. There's a reason no one can remember anything from their early childhood or even fetus period, and you know why? Cause a fetus has no kind of brain function as a child or adult has.

So if someone, or something as you see it, cannot speak or defend itself, it's ok to snuff it out?

wow...

He better hope he never goes into a coma...or he could be next!

[Ehwmatt]

You can shake your head as much as you want. It doesn't change the fact that it can't speak or defend itself cause it's... a fetus! The usual last week one can take an abortion is the 22nd, and the baby can't even feel pain until the third trimester ( 28-42)

Please don't start talking about what is medically necessary when you clearly doesn't know what you're talking about. There's a reason no one can remember anything from their early childhood or even fetus period, and you know why? Cause a fetus has no kind of brain function as a child or adult has.

Uh...can't feel pain???

I good friend of mine works in a neonate ICU where they have had children born under your supposed 28 week line and believe me when I tell you those children can feel pain.

The most preterm baby to survive is 21 weeks...a little girl by the name of Amillia Taylor. Half of all baby born at week 25 will survive, and lead normal and happy lives.

You are now talking out of your ass. Impressive, usually you froggy folks only talk around your cigarette.

And your usual last week thing is bullshit too, well maybe in France, but still only 13 states have a limit on the time an abortion can be performed.

I agree that the government should tell a woman what to do...but I still think abortion is morally wrong and your claims are nothing but horseshit designed to justify your view point.

Using horseshit to justify a view point is stupid. Horseshit is a fertilizer, not a method to bolster an intellectual position.

Can't remember things from early childhood? Oh, I get it. I can't remember the things I did when I was three years old cause I had [bno brain function[/b]. Makes perfect sense now.

[parfait]

You can shake your head as much as you want. It doesn't change the fact that it can't speak or defend itself cause it's... a fetus! The usual last week one can take an abortion is the 22nd, and the baby can't even feel pain until the third trimester ( 28-42)

Please don't start talking about what is medically necessary when you clearly doesn't know what you're talking about. There's a reason no one can remember anything from their early childhood or even fetus period, and you know why? Cause a fetus has no kind of brain function as a child or adult has.

Uh...can't feel pain???

I good friend of mine works in a neonate ICU where they have had children born under your supposed 28 week line and believe me when I tell you those children can feel pain.

The most preterm baby to survive is 21 weeks...a little girl by the name of Amillia Taylor. Half of all baby born at week 25 will survive, and lead normal and happy lives.

You are now talking out of your ass. Impressive, usually you froggy folks only talk around your cigarette.

And your usual last week thing is bullshit too, well maybe in France, but still only 13 states have a limit on the time an abortion can be performed.

I agree that the government should tell a woman what to do...but I still think abortion is morally wrong and your claims are nothing but horseshit designed to justify your view point.

Using horseshit to justify a view point is stupid. Horseshit is a fertilizer, not a method to bolster an intellectual position.

Can't remember things from early childhood? Oh, I get it. I can't remember the things I did when I was three years old cause I had [bno brain function[/b]. Makes perfect sense now.

Don't twist my words. I said that a fetus does not have the same brain function as a baby, because of the fact that the brain is still evolving. My professor (veteran pathologist) had a long lecture about the exact topic a while ago, and basically says the same thing as I say, (though in a much more complex way, cause let's face it; some of you aren't rocket scientists )

Here's an english review and conclusion done by several doctors. A quote:

Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques.

So please stop with your E.R bullshit. I just state the fact - like it or not.

[Ehwmatt]

Don't twist my words. I said that a fetus does not have the same brain function as a baby, because of the fact that the brain is still evolving. My professor (veteran pathologist) had a long lecture about the exact topic a while ago, and basically says the same thing as I say, (though in a much more complex way, cause let's face it; some of you aren't rocket scientists )

Here's an english review and conclusion done by several doctors. A quote:

Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques.

So please stop with your E.R bullshit. I just state the fact - like it or not.

Right, and I can go and find substantiated medical research that says the exact opposite of what these studies say with a simple google search. Science isn't infallible, and moreover, it's not above politicking. This is one of those things that they'll never be able to know one way or another for sure. The fact that you're on here trumpeting the no pain for the fetus line of thought as unassailable fact is wrong.

[artist4perry]

You can shake your head as much as you want. It doesn't change the fact that it can't speak or defend itself cause it's... a fetus! The usual last week one can take an abortion is the 22nd, and the baby can't even feel pain until the third trimester ( 28-42)

Please don't start talking about what is medically necessary when you clearly doesn't know what you're talking about. There's a reason no one can remember anything from their early childhood or even fetus period, and you know why? Cause a fetus has no kind of brain function as a child or adult has.

Uh...can't feel pain???

I good friend of mine works in a neonate ICU where they have had children born under your supposed 28 week line and believe me when I tell you those children can feel pain.

The most preterm baby to survive is 21 weeks...a little girl by the name of Amillia Taylor. Half of all baby born at week 25 will survive, and lead normal and happy lives.

You are now talking out of your ass. Impressive, usually you froggy folks only talk around your cigarette.

And your usual last week thing is bullshit too, well maybe in France, but still only 13 states have a limit on the time an abortion can be performed.

I agree that the government should tell a woman what to do...but I still think abortion is morally wrong and your claims are nothing but horseshit designed to justify your view point.

Using horseshit to justify a view point is stupid. Horseshit is a fertilizer, not a method to bolster an intellectual position.

Can't remember things from early childhood? Oh, I get it. I can't remember the things I did when I was three years old cause I had [bno brain function[/b]. Makes perfect sense now.

Don't twist my words. I said that a fetus does not have the same brain function as a baby, because of the fact that the brain is still evolving. My professor (veteran pathologist) had a long lecture about the exact topic a while ago, and basically says the same thing as I say, (though in a much more complex way, cause let's face it; some of you aren't rocket scientists )

Here's an english review and conclusion done by several doctors. A quote:

Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques.

So please stop with your E.R bullshit. I just state the fact - like it or not.

Would the "findings" have something to do with the desire to justify the act? Maybe a bit skewed to fit the results needed? Not the first time that was done. And lets go with the arguement that it feels no pain. It is no less dead. If it was alive and the life was taken because of abortion, it is now dead. Dead. A dead child. Sorry, could not resist this arguement. If we leave the baby to grow does it all of a sudden become human. Or was it human from conception. It won't devolope into a dog. So human it is. After abortion it is a dead human. Fact.

[parfait]

Don't twist my words. I said that a fetus does not have the same brain function as a baby, because of the fact that the brain is still evolving. My professor (veteran pathologist) had a long lecture about the exact topic a while ago, and basically says the same thing as I say, (though in a much more complex way, cause let's face it; some of you aren't rocket scientists )

Here's an english review and conclusion done by several doctors. A quote:

Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques.

So please stop with your E.R bullshit. I just state the fact - like it or not.

Right, and I can go and find substantiated medical research that says the exact opposite of what these studies say with a simple google search. Science isn't infallible, and moreover, it's not above politicking. This is one of those things that they'll never be able to know one way or another for sure. The fact that you're on here trumpeting the no pain for the fetus line of thought as unassailable fact is wrong.

This is just stupid. You can tell yourself that it isn't a fact as much as you want, it doesn't make what I say less of a fact. Please make a "simple" google search and find sound research that states otherwise - do it, please! And sure they'll be able to know; it's not that hard of a test either.

You my friend just got... Owned

[artist4perry]

Don't twist my words. I said that a fetus does not have the same brain function as a baby, because of the fact that the brain is still evolving. My professor (veteran pathologist) had a long lecture about the exact topic a while ago, and basically says the same thing as I say, (though in a much more complex way, cause let's face it; some of you aren't rocket scientists )

Here's an english review and conclusion done by several doctors. A quote:

Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques.

So please stop with your E.R bullshit. I just state the fact - like it or not.

Right, and I can go and find substantiated medical research that says the exact opposite of what these studies say with a simple google search. Science isn't infallible, and moreover, it's not above politicking. This is one of those things that they'll never be able to know one way or another for sure. The fact that you're on here trumpeting the no pain for the fetus line of thought as unassailable fact is wrong.

This is just stupid. You can tell yourself that it isn't a fact as much as you want, it doesn't make what I say less of a fact. Please make a "simple" google search and find sound research that states otherwise - do it, please! And sure they'll be able to know; it's not that hard of a test either.

You my friend just got... Owned

Still a dead child so who wins..................

[Ehwmatt]

Don't twist my words. I said that a fetus does not have the same brain function as a baby, because of the fact that the brain is still evolving. My professor (veteran pathologist) had a long lecture about the exact topic a while ago, and basically says the same thing as I say, (though in a much more complex way, cause let's face it; some of you aren't rocket scientists )

Here's an english review and conclusion done by several doctors. A quote:

Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques.

So please stop with your E.R bullshit. I just state the fact - like it or not.

Right, and I can go and find substantiated medical research that says the exact opposite of what these studies say with a simple google search. Science isn't infallible, and moreover, it's not above politicking. This is one of those things that they'll never be able to know one way or another for sure. The fact that you're on here trumpeting the no pain for the fetus line of thought as unassailable fact is wrong.

This is just stupid. You can tell yourself that it isn't a fact as much as you want, it doesn't make what I say less of a fact. Please make a "simple" google search and find sound research that states otherwise - do it, please! And sure they'll be able to know; it's not that hard of a test either.

You my friend just got... Owned

Here is what the VERY FIRST hit on Google yielded. I am headed out for dinner, otherwise I'm sure I could find plenty more. Admittedly, some of the quotes are somewhat dated, but the point is, it's not impossible to fit science to your agenda, especially in a realm where conjecture is going to inherently never be fully resolved, like figuring out what a fuckin fetus feels. I'm not saying one way or the other is 100% truth, but you are, and that's where I take exception. From researching for 5 minutes, it seems the only thing close to a consensus among those in the field is that before 9 weeks the chances of feeling pain are slim.

But early on there is no cerebral cortex for thinking, therefore no pain?

The cortex isn’t needed to feel pain. The thalamus is needed and (see above) is functioning at 8 weeks. Even complete removal of the cortex does not eliminate the sensation of pain. "Indeed there seems to be little evidence that pain information reaches the sensory cortex." Patton et al., Intro. to Basic Neurology, W. B. Saunders Co. 1976, p. 178

But isn’t pain mostly psychological?

There is also organic, or physiological pain which elicits a neurological response to pain. P. Lubeskind, "Psychology & Physiology of Pain," Amer. Review Psychology, vol. 28, 1977, p. 42

From testimony before the US House of Reps:

"The fetus within this time frame of gestation, 20 weeks and beyond, is fully capable of experiencing pain. Without doubt a partial birth abortion is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant. R. White, Dir. Neurosurgery & Brain Research, Case Western Univ.

Also, "Far from being less able to feel pain, such premature newborns may be more sensitive to pain"...that babies under 30 weeks have a "newly established pain system that is raw and unmodified at this tender age." P. Ranalli, Neuro. Dept., Univ. of Toronto

Data in the British Medical Journal, Lancet, gave solid confirmation of such pain. It is known that the fetal umbilical cord has no pain receptors such as the rest of the fetal body. Accordingly, they tested fetal hormone stress response comparing puncturing of the abdomen and of the cord.

They observed "the fetus reacts to intrahepatic (liver) needling with vigorous body and breathing movements, but not to cord needling. The levels of these hormones did not vary with fetal age." M. Fisk, et al., Fetal Plasma Cortisol and B-endorphin Response to Intrauterine Needling, Lancet, Vol. 344, July 9, 1994, Pg. 77

Another excellent British study commented on this:

"It cannot be comfortable for the fetus to have a scalp electrode implanted on his skin, to have blood taken from the scalp or to suffer the skull compression that may occur even with spontaneous delivery. It is hardly surprising that infants delivered by difficult forceps extraction act as if they have a severe headache." Valman & Pearson, "What the Fetus Feels," British Med. Jour., Jan. 26, 1980

Pain can be detected when nociceptors (pain receptors) discharge electrical impulses to the spinal cord and brain. These fire impulses outward, telling the muscles and body to react. These can be measured. Mountcastle, Medical Physiology, St. Louis: C.V. Mosby, pp. 391-427 "Lip tactile response may be evoked by the end of the 7th week. At 11 weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except for the back and the top of the head, are sensitive to pain." S. Reinis & J. Goldman, The Development of the Brain C. Thomas Pub., 1980

A more technical description would add that changes in heart rate and fetal movement also suggest that intrauterine manipulations are painful to the fetus. Volman & Pearson, "What the Fetus Feels," British Med. Journal, Jan. 26, 1980, pp. 233-234.

Listen college boy, just because your Pathology 101 professor says so doesn't make it infallible truth.

[hoagiepete]

And another loving couple loses yet another chance to adopt a beautiful baby child.

[parfait]

I'm not going to bother quoting your whole reply, but what you just posted just proves my point even further. It's stated that a fetus won't feel pain until ca 20nd week.

While the presence of thalamocortical fibers is necessary for pain perception, their mere presence is insufficient—this pathway must also be functional. It has been proposed that transient, functional thalamocortical circuits may form via subplate neurons around midgestation, but no human study has demonstrated this early functionality. Instead, constant SEPs appear at 29 weeks’ PCA, and EEG patterns denoting wakefulness appear around 30 weeks’ PCA. Both of these tests of cortical function suggest that conscious perception of pain does not begin before the third trimester. Cutaneous withdrawal reflexes and hormonal stress responses present earlier in development are not explicit or sufficient evidence of pain perception because they are not specific to noxious stimuli and are not cortically mediated.

All your quotes just states that there is a certain opportunity for the fetus to feel pain, but not one study has ever managed to prove it. The baby will feel pain, but not until in the third trimester, and I don't know about the law in US, but here one can abort a baby up until the 22nd week. I recommend reading this paper:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/294/8/947

And most science isn't infallible, but right now, all the data points to... You know... That I still owned you

[AlteredDNA]

I'm not going to bother quoting your whole reply, but what you just posted just proves my point even further. It's stated that a fetus won't feel pain until ca 20nd week.

While the presence of thalamocortical fibers is necessary for pain perception, their mere presence is insufficient—this pathway must also be functional. It has been proposed that transient, functional thalamocortical circuits may form via subplate neurons around midgestation, but no human study has demonstrated this early functionality. Instead, constant SEPs appear at 29 weeks’ PCA, and EEG patterns denoting wakefulness appear around 30 weeks’ PCA. Both of these tests of cortical function suggest that conscious perception of pain does not begin before the third trimester. Cutaneous withdrawal reflexes and hormonal stress responses present earlier in development are not explicit or sufficient evidence of pain perception because they are not specific to noxious stimuli and are not cortically mediated.

All your quotes just states that there is a certain opportunity for the fetus to feel pain, but not one study has ever managed to prove it. The baby will feel pain, but not until in the third trimester, and I don't know about the law in US, but here one can abort a baby up until the 22nd week. I recommend reading this paper:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/294/8/947

And most science isn't infallible, but right now, all the data points to... You know... That I still owned you

But, if there's a chance, even the tiniest, remotest chance, that they can feel pain, why would anyone still think it's ok?

[artist4perry]

I'm not going to bother quoting your whole reply, but what you just posted just proves my point even further. It's stated that a fetus won't feel pain until ca 20nd week.

While the presence of thalamocortical fibers is necessary for pain perception, their mere presence is insufficient—this pathway must also be functional. It has been proposed that transient, functional thalamocortical circuits may form via subplate neurons around midgestation, but no human study has demonstrated this early functionality. Instead, constant SEPs appear at 29 weeks’ PCA, and EEG patterns denoting wakefulness appear around 30 weeks’ PCA. Both of these tests of cortical function suggest that conscious perception of pain does not begin before the third trimester. Cutaneous withdrawal reflexes and hormonal stress responses present earlier in development are not explicit or sufficient evidence of pain perception because they are not specific to noxious stimuli and are not cortically mediated.

All your quotes just states that there is a certain opportunity for the fetus to feel pain, but not one study has ever managed to prove it. The baby will feel pain, but not until in the third trimester, and I don't know about the law in US, but here one can abort a baby up until the 22nd week. I recommend reading this paper:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/294/8/947

And most science isn't infallible, but right now, all the data points to... You know... That I still owned you

Parfait, I told you a baby sucks his thumb at 15 weeks! A human movement of comfort for a child. Comforting itself at the wee age of 15 weeks. You are not owning anyone when you still see it as not a child. It is you know. A human child. It must feel if it needs to comfort itself. Or finds pleasure doing something so comforting. It doesn't do it because it gives it nourishment. A baby kicks in the womb, dances to music played. Oh my gosh Rose loved music and kept me nauseated by her sqirming. What horror would it be if you find out it can feel pain. It was alive.

[Red13JoePa]

The early "fetus" in The Silent Scream untrasound makes clear defense manuevers to get away from the suction device intended to dismember it.

[treetopovskaya]

ff (i think it was him... maybe rwf) posted a bbc special that followed the development of a baby from conception to birth. amazing stuff. }:C)