Some fix for stevew2...

[Jana]

Without Cain, Perry wrote a mediocre album called FTLOSM with the help of like a bazillion co-writers.

Lame Jana. Without Perry, Cain never wrote a good album, period. Oh, I do believe Street Talk sold 2 million on it's own, without the help of Cain.

Pwned

With the help of ten writers. Perry had the voice. You can't compare. I'm just saying Jon never gets the credit he deserves re songwriting.

[Rockindeano]

Without Cain, Perry wrote a mediocre album called FTLOSM with the help of like a bazillion co-writers.

Lame Jana. Without Perry, Cain never wrote a good album, period. Oh, I do believe Street Talk sold 2 million on it's own, without the help of Cain.

Pwned

With the help of ten writers. Perry had the voice. You can't compare. I'm just saying Jon never gets the credit he deserves re songwriting.

He can have all of it. It's all cheese. Is it fun to listen to? Sure, some of the big hits are, but man does "faded photographs" and "State of Grace" get old real quick.

[Don]

It's a bit ironic that the only #1 song Jon is associated with was written by someone else, ie., Diane Warren.

I think as a musician, Cain is top notch. He is a good songwriter but definitely not one of the best out there, especially without Neal and Steve collaborating with him and vice versa.

[Jana]

Without Cain, Perry wrote a mediocre album called FTLOSM with the help of like a bazillion co-writers.

Lame Jana. Without Perry, Cain never wrote a good album, period. Oh, I do believe Street Talk sold 2 million on it's own, without the help of Cain.

Pwned

With the help of ten writers. Perry had the voice. You can't compare. I'm just saying Jon never gets the credit he deserves re songwriting.

He can have all of it. It's all cheese. Is it fun to listen to? Sure, some of the big hits are, but man does "faded photographs" and "State of Grace" get old real quick.

They can't all be Springsteen and Bono.

[Ehwmatt]

Without Cain, Perry wrote a mediocre album called FTLOSM with the help of like a bazillion co-writers.

Lame Jana. Without Perry, Cain never wrote a good album, period. Oh, I do believe Street Talk sold 2 million on it's own, without the help of Cain.

Pwned

With the help of ten writers. Perry had the voice. You can't compare. I'm just saying Jon never gets the credit he deserves re songwriting.

He can have all of it. It's all cheese. Is it fun to listen to? Sure, some of the big hits are, but man does "faded photographs" and "State of Grace" get old real quick.

Dean, you sound like a fuckin hippie Rolling Stone writer who loves listening to someone who sings like Jason would after being gang-throatfucked by 14 black cocks so long as the lyrics are "deep." I appreciate a good lyrical song when it comes along, but great songwriting is so much more than lyrics.

The melody and the hook are what really should set a song apart. Great lyrics, whether they just be really creative, a form of social commentary, have great meter whatever else, certainly help, but just because someone doesn't pen Dylanesque or Springsteenesque lyrics doesn't mean they are not a good songwriter or the song itself isn't worth being considered "great."

It's possible to write great lyrics and not have the other songwriting chops to make them worth a damn - hell, I bet any half-decent upper level college poetry class has some kids that write pretty great "lyrics." If they can't write a melody and/or a hook that makes me want to decipher or picture the lyrics, it's not a song. On the other hand, it's not really possible to be able to pen a great melody and hook and not be able to churn out a great song.

Hell, by these standards, most of the Beatles songs aren't well-written.

End result: Writing a good melody and a good hook (and probably a bridge too... most songs without a bridge meander for me) are far more valuable/worthwhile criteria for assessing songwriting skills.

[Rockindeano]

Easy there Spongebob-

I believe I said the hits were fun to listen to, did I not? My point being that it's just so cornbally...the majority of his songs, hell, 99% of them. No one can deny that. Faithfully- beautiful song, no doubt. DSB, great hook, although technically not the way to write a proper song....But there are so many that simply mirror each other and there is never a song with social reflection, nothing that is serious. Can the dude write a love song? Absolutely. Can he write a pop song? Definitely. Can he write something that really matters, that makes you think? I don't see it.

Just my two cents.

Now, put all three of those heads together, and you have a really healthy writing team...I just wish they would have written about something other than boy/girl all the time.

And dude, the deepthroating, 14 black cocks in Jason's mouth? That I definitely did not need to read. Fuckin gross bastard.

[Ehwmatt]

Easy there Spongebob-

I believe I said the hits were fun to listen to, did I not? My point being that it's just so cornbally...the majority of his songs, hell, 99% of them. No one can deny that. Faithfully- beautiful song, no doubt. DSB, great hook, although technically not the way to write a proper song....But there are so many that simply mirror each other and there is never a song with social reflection, nothing that is serious. Can the dude write a love song? Absolutely. Can he write a pop song? Definitely. Can he write something that really matters, that makes you think? I don't see it.

Just my two cents.

Now, put all three of those heads together, and you have a really healthy writing team...I just wish they would have written about something other than boy/girl all the time.

And dude, the deepthroating, 14 black cocks in Jason's mouth? That I definitely did not need to read. Fuckin gross bastard.

I'm just saying, a pop song is unbelievably hard to craft and do it well. A songwriter's "skill" to me is measured more by the craftsmanship of the melody/hook as I said. Different strokes I guess.

And as for the Jason analogy, that's G-rated by your standards cocksmoker

[Jana]

Easy there Spongebob-

I believe I said the hits were fun to listen to, did I not? My point being that it's just so cornbally...the majority of his songs, hell, 99% of them. No one can deny that. Faithfully- beautiful song, no doubt. DSB, great hook, although technically not the way to write a proper song....But there are so many that simply mirror each other and there is never a song with social reflection, nothing that is serious. Can the dude write a love song? Absolutely. Can he write a pop song? Definitely. Can he write something that really matters, that makes you think? I don't see it.

Just my two cents.

Now, put all three of those heads together, and you have a really healthy writing team...I just wish they would have written about something other than boy/girl all the time.

And dude, the deepthroating, 14 black cocks in Jason's mouth? That I definitely did not need to read. Fuckin gross bastard.

You're right, it is boy/girl most of the time, probably much more so compared to other bands. But most people relate songs that they really emotionally connect to to be regarding some type of love - love lost, new love, etc, a good portion of the time.

But I agree with Matt re melodies and hooks. Songs that stay with me sometimes aren't very deep, but they have such melody and catchy hooks that they stand the test of time or memories of when they came out.

[Michigan Girl]

Easy there Spongebob-

I believe I said the hits were fun to listen to, did I not? My point being that it's just so cornbally...the majority of his songs, hell, 99% of them. No one can deny that. Faithfully- beautiful song, no doubt. DSB, great hook, although technically not the way to write a proper song....But there are so many that simply mirror each other and there is never a song with social reflection, nothing that is serious. Can the dude write a love song? Absolutely. Can he write a pop song? Definitely. Can he write something that really matters, that makes you think? I don't see it.
Just my two cents.
Now, put all three of those heads together, and you have a really healthy writing team...I just wish they would have written about something other than boy/girl all the time.
And dude, the deepthroating, 14 black cocks in Jason's mouth? That I definitely did not need to read. Fuckin gross bastard.

I'm just saying, a pop song is unbelievably hard to craft and do it well. A songwriter's "skill" to me is measured more by the craftsmanship of the melody/hook as I said. Different strokes I guess.
And as for the Jason analogy, that's G-rated by your standards cocksmoker 8)

It did sound a little racial, Matty!!!

[Ehwmatt]

Easy there Spongebob-

I believe I said the hits were fun to listen to, did I not? My point being that it's just so cornbally...the majority of his songs, hell, 99% of them. No one can deny that. Faithfully- beautiful song, no doubt. DSB, great hook, although technically not the way to write a proper song....But there are so many that simply mirror each other and there is never a song with social reflection, nothing that is serious. Can the dude write a love song? Absolutely. Can he write a pop song? Definitely. Can he write something that really matters, that makes you think? I don't see it.
Just my two cents.
Now, put all three of those heads together, and you have a really healthy writing team...I just wish they would have written about something other than boy/girl all the time.
And dude, the deepthroating, 14 black cocks in Jason's mouth? That I definitely did not need to read. Fuckin gross bastard.

I'm just saying, a pop song is unbelievably hard to craft and do it well. A songwriter's "skill" to me is measured more by the craftsmanship of the melody/hook as I said. Different strokes I guess.
And as for the Jason analogy, that's G-rated by your standards cocksmoker 8)

It did sound a little racial, Matty!!!

Of course it's racial... I'd love to have that stereotype

[steveo777]

Easy there Spongebob-

I believe I said the hits were fun to listen to, did I not? My point being that it's just so cornbally...the majority of his songs, hell, 99% of them. No one can deny that. Faithfully- beautiful song, no doubt. DSB, great hook, although technically not the way to write a proper song....But there are so many that simply mirror each other and there is never a song with social reflection, nothing that is serious. Can the dude write a love song? Absolutely. Can he write a pop song? Definitely. Can he write something that really matters, that makes you think? I don't see it.
Just my two cents.
Now, put all three of those heads together, and you have a really healthy writing team...I just wish they would have written about something other than boy/girl all the time.
And dude, the deepthroating, 14 black cocks in Jason's mouth? That I definitely did not need to read. Fuckin gross bastard.

I'm just saying, a pop song is unbelievably hard to craft and do it well. A songwriter's "skill" to me is measured more by the craftsmanship of the melody/hook as I said. Different strokes I guess.
And as for the Jason analogy, that's G-rated by your standards cocksmoker 8)

It did sound a little racial, Matty!!!

Of course it's racial... I'd love to have that stereotype

Yep, it's a pretty true stereotype. Now if they could just make the distinction between their 14 inch black cocks and their brains...........

[Andrew]

Cain is responsible for the one of the best known songs in Australian rock history - Jimmy Barnes' Workign Class Man - almost a national anthem here and played daily on every radio station country wide.

[Ligzig]

DSB, great hook, although technically not the way to write a proper song....

I'm finding it hard to understand what a "proper" song would be? I think it's terrible that music should be restricted. Three minute long songs fit for radio that repeat the verse/chorus music form?

[Rockindeano]

DSB, great hook, although technically not the way to write a proper song....

I'm finding it hard to understand what a "proper" song would be? I think it's terrible that music should be restricted. Three minute long songs fit for radio that repeat the verse/chorus music form?

Hey, I love the song, just to make it clear. What I am saying is the chorus doesn't come until the very very end. It's just a really weird tune in that it is not your typical lyrics, chorus, lyrics, chorus repeat thing.

Another thing I want to say is Cain is definitely a terrific pop song writer. Dude can write a pop song with the great pop writers, Bryan Adams, Phil Collins, Elton John, etc. Perhaps there is a difference between a pop song and a rock tune.

[fredinator]

That would be Neal.

[Rockindeano]

That would be Neal.

What's Neal? Besides a giant liar and a guy who lacks a tonne(for you Euro Fags), character? I will admit the dude is fun to party with and he is great when he is on your side. I can't say I didn't have fun with the guy. You should hear about our trip to a Boston bar..man, that is a great story. I can tell it if coerced..

[steveo777]

That would be Neal.

What's Neal? Besides a giant liar and a guy who lacks a tonne(for you Euro Fags), character? I will admit the dude is fun to party with and he is great when he is on your side. I can't say I didn't have fun with the guy. You should hear about our trip to a Boston bar..man, that is a great story. I can tell it if coerced..

He wouldn't be as much fun now. He got sober, although rockers seldom stay that way. I guess it would depend on whether you caught him on or off the wagon.

[Rockindeano]

That would be Neal.

What's Neal? Besides a giant liar and a guy who lacks a tonne(for you Euro Fags), character? I will admit the dude is fun to party with and he is great when he is on your side. I can't say I didn't have fun with the guy. You should hear about our trip to a Boston bar..man, that is a great story. I can tell it if coerced..

He wouldn't be as much fun now. He got sober, although rockers seldom stay that way. I guess it would depend on whether you caught him on or off the wagon.

Are you sure he is sober still? I believe he did that when he had his new girl, who is gone now right? All I can say is he was fun when we got smashed. I do remember vividly hoping for some reason while we were out partying that JT the road Mgr would die in his fuckin sleep that night. Man I hate that fucker. He looked like a pale overweight Oompa Loompa. Dude is not handsome at all.

[fredinator]

I would love to hear the story (minus bathroom parts, sex, you know, mean, gross stuff, okay?)...

[Rockindeano]

I would love to hear the story (minus bathroom parts, sex, you know, mean, gross stuff, okay?)...

Well, Boston, last show on the tour before a month long break. Everyone is at the Boston Hilton partying at the hotel bar. For some reason, the bar closes down at 10PM. Um, ok. Time to seek out a place to go. We had this guy along named Jeremy, who had a 7 passenger sled. We all make plans to go out, and tell Valory. He is busy stealing a drink in a bar glass out the door and gets caught talking to some guy about Los Angeles class submarines. We pile in the car, text him a few times, and Neal finally says, "fuck him, let's go." That was hysterical. We take off to a Irish bar in Boston..Good God, all hot blondes and well endowed chicks everywhere. Neal was hammered as was I and Soto too. Now mind you, we were the oldest there..Most folks were about 22-26. Anyway, after an hour or so hitting the vodka bar, and helping Schon to the pisser, it was time to split..about 150AM. We somehow told the bar management that Neal was there and explained who he was and all that stuff. So as we're walking out, the sound system goes down and they start playing DSB real loud. The place goes nuts and a spotlight shines on Neal. I backed away and let him have his moment. It was great for him. Soon we had the bartender up on the bar itself dumping Jaeger into Soto's piehole and then mine..about a 3 foot pour..it was awesome. Neal was posing with hot chicks, taking pictures... It was a great time, and it was really cool to hang with Neal. I remember throwing two hundies at the bartender and telling him thank you for the great time. We split, and to this day I have no idea how this Jeremy dude got us back to the Hilton, but we made it. The party didn't stop there, but the rest of the night is off limits. There are certain things I am not talking about.

[Ligzig]

DSB, great hook, although technically not the way to write a proper song....

I'm finding it hard to understand what a "proper" song would be? I think it's terrible that music should be restricted. Three minute long songs fit for radio that repeat the verse/chorus music form?

Hey, I love the song, just to make it clear. What I am saying is the chorus doesn't come until the very very end. It's just a really weird tune in that it is not your typical lyrics, chorus, lyrics, chorus repeat thing.

Another thing I want to say is Cain is definitely a terrific pop song writer. Dude can write a pop song with the great pop writers, Bryan Adams, Phil Collins, Elton John, etc. Perhaps there is a difference between a pop song and a rock tune.

I think we need more "weird" songs like that, IMO. I think If Journey were to have continued writing songs in a more creative style they wouldn't have been labeled as "corporate" - It almost makes me want to punch a kitten to think about the greatness this band could have achieved at their peak with the talent they had, but they stuck to such cliche themes.

[fredinator]

I would love to hear the story (minus bathroom parts, sex, you know, mean, gross stuff, okay?)...

Well, Boston, last show on the tour before a month long break. Everyone is at the Boston Hilton partying at the hotel bar. For some reason, the bar closes down at 10PM. Um, ok. Time to seek out a place to go. We had this guy along named Jeremy, who had a 7 passenger sled. We all make plans to go out, and tell Valory. He is busy stealing a drink in a bar glass out the door and gets caught talking to some guy about Los Angeles class submarines. We pile in the car, text him a few times, and Neal finally says, "fuck him, let's go." That was hysterical. We take off to a Irish bar in Boston..Good God, all hot blondes and well endowed chicks everywhere. Neal was hammered as was I and Soto too. Now mind you, we were the oldest there..Most folks were about 22-26. Anyway, after an hour or so hitting the vodka bar, and helping Schon to the pisser, it was time to split..about 150AM. We somehow told the bar management that Neal was there and explained who he was and all that stuff. So as we're walking out, the sound system goes down and they start playing DSB real loud. The place goes nuts and a spotlight shines on Neal. I backed away and let him have his moment. It was great for him. Soon we had the bartender up on the bar itself dumping Jaeger into Soto's piehole and then mine..about a 3 foot pour..it was awesome. Neal was posing with hot chicks, taking pictures... It was a great time, and it was really cool to hang with Neal. I remember throwing two hundies at the bartender and telling him thank you for the great time. We split, and to this day I have no idea how this Jeremy dude got us back to the Hilton, but we made it. The party didn't stop there, but the rest of the night is off limits. There are certain things I am not talking about.

This is awesome; what FUN that must have been! A great memory for you and a really good story, thanks, Dean...

P.S. You really can be adorable...

[Rockindeano]

DSB, great hook, although technically not the way to write a proper song....

I'm finding it hard to understand what a "proper" song would be? I think it's terrible that music should be restricted. Three minute long songs fit for radio that repeat the verse/chorus music form?

Hey, I love the song, just to make it clear. What I am saying is the chorus doesn't come until the very very end. It's just a really weird tune in that it is not your typical lyrics, chorus, lyrics, chorus repeat thing.

Another thing I want to say is Cain is definitely a terrific pop song writer. Dude can write a pop song with the great pop writers, Bryan Adams, Phil Collins, Elton John, etc. Perhaps there is a difference between a pop song and a rock tune.

I think we need more "weird" songs like that, IMO. I think If Journey were to have continued writing songs in a more creative style they wouldn't have been labeled as "corporate" - It almost makes me want to punch a kitten to think about the greatness this band could have achieved at their peak with the talent they had, but they stuck to such cliche themes.

Agreed. Great point.

[JRNYFan]

I would love to hear the story (minus bathroom parts, sex, you know, mean, gross stuff, okay?)...

Well, Boston, last show on the tour before a month long break. Everyone is at the Boston Hilton partying at the hotel bar. For some reason, the bar closes down at 10PM. Um, ok. Time to seek out a place to go. We had this guy along named Jeremy, who had a 7 passenger sled. We all make plans to go out, and tell Valory. He is busy stealing a drink in a bar glass out the door and gets caught talking to some guy about Los Angeles class submarines. We pile in the car, text him a few times, and Neal finally says, "fuck him, let's go." That was hysterical. We take off to a Irish bar in Boston..Good God, all hot blondes and well endowed chicks everywhere. Neal was hammered as was I and Soto too. Now mind you, we were the oldest there..Most folks were about 22-26. Anyway, after an hour or so hitting the vodka bar, and helping Schon to the pisser, it was time to split..about 150AM. We somehow told the bar management that Neal was there and explained who he was and all that stuff. So as we're walking out, the sound system goes down and they start playing DSB real loud. The place goes nuts and a spotlight shines on Neal. I backed away and let him have his moment. It was great for him. Soon we had the bartender up on the bar itself dumping Jaeger into Soto's piehole and then mine..about a 3 foot pour..it was awesome. Neal was posing with hot chicks, taking pictures... It was a great time, and it was really cool to hang with Neal. I remember throwing two hundies at the bartender and telling him thank you for the great time. We split, and to this day I have no idea how this Jeremy dude got us back to the Hilton, but we made it. The party didn't stop there, but the rest of the night is off limits. There are certain things I am not talking about.

Weren't you and the band on the outs after TG?

[fredinator]

Also, what is a "Los Angeles class submarine?"

[Rockindeano]

Also, what is a "Los Angeles class submarine?"

They're a class of nuclear submarines in the US Navy. Ross seemed excited to be speaking of them.

[kgdjpubs]

Cain is responsible for the one of the best known songs in Australian rock history - Jimmy Barnes' Working Class Man - almost a national anthem here and played daily on every radio station country wide.

still partial to Jimmy's re-writing of the lyrics on the bridge

original lyrics (pretty much classic Jonathan Cain)...
well he loves a little woman
some day he'll make his wife
saving all the overtime
for the one love of his life

Barnes re-write (pretty much classic Jimmy Barnes)
well he loves a little woman
but you best not tell his wife
or she's going to cut his balls off now
with a six-inch carving knife


wonder if Cain ever heard that one?!?

[kgdjpubs]

DSB, great hook, although technically not the way to write a proper song....

I'm finding it hard to understand what a "proper" song would be? I think it's terrible that music should be restricted. Three minute long songs fit for radio that repeat the verse/chorus music form?

Hey, I love the song, just to make it clear. What I am saying is the chorus doesn't come until the very very end. It's just a really weird tune in that it is not your typical lyrics, chorus, lyrics, chorus repeat thing.

I hear what you're saying about the deviation from the normal formula...but I've always been under the impression that you can break almost any rule on songwriting (or anything else) if a) you know what you're doing....and b) the situation allows it.

one of the best deviations I've heard from Cold Chisel, later covered by John Farnham during his Little River Band tenure. Some good "non-pop" lyrics on this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsFFBc7dhD0

chorus intro
verse 1
guitar solo
verse 2
verse 3
chorus out

Another thing I want to say is Cain is definitely a terrific pop song writer. Dude can write a pop song with the great pop writers, Bryan Adams, Phil Collins, Elton John, etc. Perhaps there is a difference between a pop song and a rock tune.

interestingly enough, for his ability to write pop songs, I always thought Phil Collins' greatest lyrical ability was the non-pop songs that he did. For all the pop airplay that it got, In The Air Tonight is just about the most non-commercial pop hit that ever got massive airplay, and for that matter, the entire Face Value album is pretty far away from a "pop album". He did a bunch of those type of songs also.

I think we need more "weird" songs like that, IMO. I think If Journey were to have continued writing songs in a more creative style they wouldn't have been labeled as "corporate" - It almost makes me want to punch a kitten to think about the greatness this band could have achieved at their peak with the talent they had, but they stuck to such cliche themes.

Agreed. Great point.

I'm not sure about that. Themes, yes....but odd song structures won't win you any points with the critics if your repertoire is based on love songs with cheesy pop lyrics. It gets you lots of sales if done and promoted well, but not the critical accolades.

For what it's worth, I've always thought the hardest type of song to write was the serious lyrics turned into a pop melody. Presuming you have a knack for writing lyrics, stringing 200 words together into one of the Springsteen "wordfests with musical accompaniment" is one thing. Condensing that to a pop melody while retaining the essence of the song is MUCH harder.

For example, here's an example off the top of my head. Deadly serious lyrics condensed into a pop melody.
Rob Thomas - Her Diamonds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srg5qHHQ9i4 (see lyrics in video)

[Ehwmatt]

So Dean, being an appreciator of great lyrical artists,

How do you feel about Jackson Browne and Dan Fogelberg? I was driving around last night, windows down here in Cleveland in March, 60 degrees at 10 o clock at night (rare as hell!) and listening to those two guys. It doesn't get much better than them. I like Fogelberg more than Browne, but damn are they both good lyricists.

[Vladan]

Cain is responsible for the one of the best known songs in Australian rock history - Jimmy Barnes' Working Class Man - almost a national anthem here and played daily on every radio station country wide.

still partial to Jimmy's re-writing of the lyrics on the bridge

original lyrics (pretty much classic Jonathan Cain)...
well he loves a little woman
some day he'll make his wife
saving all the overtime
for the one love of his life

Barnes re-write (pretty much classic Jimmy Barnes)
well he loves a little woman
but you best not tell his wife
or she's going to cut his balls off now
with a six-inch carving knife


wonder if Cain ever heard that one?!?

Wow, I didn't know that. Barnes is still awesome though! It's very unaustralian not to be a fan, though Jimmy Barnes & Cold Chisel are kickass anyway. One the Australian Idols did a cover of Working Class Man, it became an instant hit pretty quickly, though the Barnes version as Andrew said, is played every single day, probably 2-3 times?. I hear it all the time. all the time.