President Barack Obama - Term 1 and 2 Thread

[RossValoryRocks]

for all of us self-employed and for so many of my middle-class friends whose companies have stopped coverage or so many have lost their jobs and are now seeing the astronomical cost of health care coverage for their families, health care reform is something desperately needed. I can't begin to tell you the number of people I know who were afraid of this years ago, myself included, but are now in favor of it b/c of how health care coverage has affected their lives after being covered all of their lives and now bearing the burden with policies sky-rocketing every year, not just a minimal jump in cost annually. It's shocking. I wouldn't have said this four years ago. I pray this is the answer, but to do nothing is more fightening to me.

Jana is may suprise you, but I agree with EVERYTHING you said.

We desperately need reform, but THIS bastardize MONSTROSITY isn't it.

It depends FAR too much on the Governement, actually WORSE, the POLITICIANS to do what they say they will to achieve the cost savings the CBO indicated in the intitial assesment. We all know, regarless of political leanings, that a politiician will say ANYTHING and do ANYTHING if they think it is good for them. That is the one thing these crooks are very bipartisan on.

We cannot trust them to CUT $400 billion out of Medicare and Medicaid....it just won't happen...and that is one of the bigger cuts in the bill that is supposed to make it revenue neutral. It won't be and it will bankrupt, I should say FURTHER bankrupt, our country.

[Jana]

for all of us self-employed and for so many of my middle-class friends whose companies have stopped coverage or so many have lost their jobs and are now seeing the astronomical cost of health care coverage for their families, health care reform is something desperately needed. I can't begin to tell you the number of people I know who were afraid of this years ago, myself included, but are now in favor of it b/c of how health care coverage has affected their lives after being covered all of their lives and now bearing the burden with policies sky-rocketing every year, not just a minimal jump in cost annually. It's shocking. I wouldn't have said this four years ago. I pray this is the answer, but to do nothing is more fightening to me.

Jana is may suprise you, but I agree with EVERYTHING you said.

We desperately need reform, but THIS bastardize MONSTROSITY isn't it.

It depends FAR too much on the Governement, actually WORSE, the POLITICIANS to do what they say they will to achieve the cost savings the CBO indicated in the intitial assesment. We all know, regarless of political leanings, that a politiician will say ANYTHING and do ANYTHING if they think it is good for them. That is the one thing these crooks are very bipartisan on.

We cannot trust them to CUT $400 billion out of Medicare and Medicaid....it just won't happen...and that is one of the bigger cuts in the bill that is supposed to make it revenue neutral. It won't be and it will bankrupt, I should say FURTHER bankrupt, our country.

Actually, it doesn't surprise me, as I know you are more of a moderate than anything on many issues, and I'm also more centrist leaning than outright liberal, only liberal on certain causes. Like I said, I pray, b/c it's an unknown. I would have preferred reform in a different way, but no one, Rep or Dem, have come up with anything except flowery promises re healthcare, buzz words regarding bringing down costs, but no concrete plans or proposals these last years, so I have little hope regarding anything different to bring down healthcare cost but empty promises, blah, blah, blah, and continuing skyrocketing costs, and b/c of that, my fear regarding this vote on Universal coverage is greatly reduced. Now, may I live to regret that feeling? Maybe so. We'll see. I will always blame the insurance companies for their greed in the astronomical hiking up of policies year after year on why many Americans are now open to this. They should blame themselves for this. I'm just disgusted, basically. Just my opinion only. I'm not stating that as a fact.

[Jana]

Your hatred of Insurance Companies is unfounded. The largest insurer in America, United Health, makes on average $54 per person per year profit. The insurance companies raise the premiums because the amount they are billed by Docs and hospitals is what is going up not the other way around.

I believe you on hospitals. But all I ever hear from doctors in depositions is quite the opposite re insurance companies slashing their charges, on and on, and they blame the insurance companies. It goes round and round. I don't know the answer. I only know for myself and other family members and friends that it's shocking at the skyrocketing jump annually if you want full coverage and many people need it b/c of healthcare issues with children and/or themselves or spouses. And then you go to different insurance companies, even companies providing it to their employees, and the coverage is subpar you find out. I hear complaints about that all the time now from people even being covered. We have been with United Healthcare for years, and their jump in rates is hard to stomach.

[Behshad]

I'm tired of being forced to pay for the costs of other people’s irresponsibility.

Guess you need to move to a country without taxation system

[jrnychick]

Sadly, I think that the passage of this bill will REALLY show the difference between the "haves" and the "have nots." Eventually we'll have government-run healthcare (passing this bill really puts us on that yellow brick road). The poor people will be waiting their turn for whatever care they need. You need non-life threatening surgery? You can wait 3 months. The rich people will pay for private doctors and hospitals to get the care right away. Don't think that will happen? That is what happens in England right now. They don't see commercials for medications all the time on TV. Why not? They have NO SAY in what medications they get. They get whatever their doctors prescribe, and that is whatever the government thinks is cheapest.

[Behshad]

Sadly, I think that the passage of this bill will REALLY show the difference between the "haves" and the "have nots." Eventually we'll have government-run healthcare (passing this bill really puts us on that yellow brick road). The poor people will be waiting their turn for whatever care they need. You need non-life threatening surgery? You can wait 3 months. The rich people will pay for private doctors and hospitals to get the care right away. Don't think that will happen? That is what happens in England right now. They don't see commercials for medications all the time on TV. Why not? They have NO SAY in what medications they get. They get whatever their doctors prescribe, and that is whatever the government thinks is cheapest.

Not true. They have MORE option than we have now. Our options right now are pay huge amounts to the insurance companies and let them decide who we can go to (the network bullcrap ) and on top of that pay even more when we have any kind of surgery. Or simply not have insurance and file got bankruptcy if you happen to need any kinda surgery.

Something needs to be done and this is the first step towards getting away from the corrupted system we currently have. An xray that costs $25 in Sweden, shouldn't cost $1100 here. It's a scamming system where BOTH the insurance companies and the Hospitals are guilty equally .

[Behshad]

I'm tired of being forced to pay for the costs of other people’s irresponsibility.

Guess you need to move to a country without taxation system

There ain't one. I'll fight from here.

Fight against reality ?! Sounds about right.

[The_Noble_Cause]

They don't see commercials for medications all the time on TV. Why not? They have NO SAY in what medications they get. They get whatever their doctors prescribe, and that is whatever the government thinks is cheapest.

Uh, this country also banned prescription drug TV ads until 1997, after advertising laws were relaxed.
It has NOTHING to do with the US or the UK healthcare system.
Huuuge stretch.

[Jana]

They don't see commercials for medications all the time on TV. Why not? They have NO SAY in what medications they get. They get whatever their doctors prescribe, and that is whatever the government thinks is cheapest.

Uh, this country also banned prescription drug TV ads until 1997, after advertising laws were relaxed.
It has NOTHING to do with the US or the UK healthcare system.
Huuuge stretch.

also, by jrnychick's logic we get whatever medication we want. true in theory. But for years you could get whatever med you wanted and pay the co-pay. But now most insurance companies have their formulary lists of the drugs you save on with their co-pay plan and it's a very restricted list, and after that, you pay steeper prices. and rarely are the meds on the list the ones I tolerate well or that work for me. I pay hefty insurance premiums, and yet in the last four years, when I'm prescribed medicine I have to pay much heftier bills for that, too. It used to be, if you needed to not use generic for specific reasons, you still only paid the co-pay, as long as the doctor checked the label box, but now I have to pay the difference for not using generic.

[RossValoryRocks]

An xray that costs $25 in Sweden, shouldn't cost $1100 here. It's a scamming system where BOTH the insurance companies and the Hospitals are guilty equally.

$1100 for an x-ray?? What the hell hospital/doctor are you going to?

I had a chest x-ray last week for my yearly, and it cost me $37 out of pocket...and my insurance picked up the other $60.

Look I don't disagree we need to reform the system...but not by bankrupting the country, and not by forcing companies out of business.

Dean would say that people shouldn't make a profit on other peoples illness...but people have to make a living. Companies make money who PAY the people who provide care. As our esteemed President said, it will be a race to the bottom. Competition is the ONLY true and good way to lower costs and impove the quality of a product.

TNC make sure you cut this post in it's entirety so that in 5 years we can come back and you can put it up and I can say I told you so.

This bill is going to fuck this country. Trusting politicians to put our interests above thier own is suicidal. The won't deliver the cuts they say, they will raise taxes through the roof and we as a country will have been irrevocably changed and not for the better.

[Behshad]

An xray for $97 ?! Let me guess , at the dentist office.

An xray costs anywhere between $700-$1300 , including the specialists involved. My share was $230.

[The_Noble_Cause]

TNC make sure you cut this post in it's entirety so that in 5 years we can come back and you can put it up and I can say I told you so.

I don't really care either way at this point.
It can pass or it can fail.
I'm more with Kucinich, let's leave it up to the states to try their own variations of reform.

[RossValoryRocks]

An xray for $97 ?! Let me guess , at the dentist office.

An xray costs anywhere between $700-$1300 , including the specialists involved. My share was $230.

No a chest x-ray for my yearly physical.

My dentals are covered 100% by my insurance, 1 time per year that is.

[RossValoryRocks]

I'm more with Kucinich, let's leave it up to the states to try their own variations of reform.

I take everything nasty back I ever said about you!!! That is brilliant! And I agree 110%.

Though I do think they should open up the market so that all insurance companies can get into all the states.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I take everything nasty back I ever said about you!!! That is brilliant! And I agree 110%.

We have also previously seen eye-to-eye on the fair tax and the 2nd amendment.
I'm willing to give you credit for your streaks of independence, not sure why you can't do the same more often for 7, myself, or hell, even Monker (who increasingly strikes me as more of the fertilizer bomb making agrarian-anarchist type).

Though I do think they should open up the market so that all insurance companies can get into all the states.

The counter-argument I keep reading against this is, like the credit card companies, the insurance companies will just move to the state(s) with the least consumer protections.

[RossValoryRocks]

I take everything nasty back I ever said about you!!! That is brilliant! And I agree 110%.

We have also previously seen eye-to-eye on the fair tax and the 2nd amendment.
I'm willing to give you credit for your streaks of independence, not sure why you can't do the same more often for 7, myself, or hell, even Monker (who increasingly strikes me as more of the fertilizer bomb making agrarian-anarchist type).

Though I do think they should open up the market so that all insurance companies can get into all the states.

The counter-argument I keep reading against this is, like the credit card companies, the insurance companies will just move to the state(s) with the least consumer protections.

True...but there is a way to do it...I actually agree with the President on this...speaking of the lowest common denominator...if it becomes a case of interstate commernce...well then the Federal Government has jurisdiction...so they can regulate it...much as they have FINALLY started going after the abusive practices of the CC companies....now we just need a Federal usury law and we are set.

The main reason I have trouble with you, Monker and 7 is you are amazing at casting blame for the past...and you all spend so much time looking back rather than forward, and it gets frustrating. Because the excuse is always: Well the Republicans did it too...but that doesn't make it right. I know I have excused the behavior of so called "conservatives" at times, and at times I was WRONG to do so, but what is going now is a travesty, ramming this bill down our throats for political points is NUTS. There was NO NEED to rush this bill through....and I think starting over would have brought a large group of us together to find the BEST way through...no just throw something out there for the sake of "getting something, ANYTHING done" is just plain not sound thinking, and it reeks of political chicanery.

We all know mistakes have been made by both sides of the aisle, REALLY big ones, but we as citizens REALLY need to be forward looking right now. The politicians are running this coutry into the ground...at the risk of being a hypocrite here...if you look back a Rome this is exactly how it collapsed. High taxes, give the masses "bread and circuses" so the elites (Senators etc) could keep their privileged status and Rome fell...we are on that path now and frankly its scary.

[S2M]

Welcome to feudal America......

[The_Noble_Cause]

The main reason I have trouble with you, Monker and 7 is you are amazing at casting blame for the past...and you all spend so much time looking back rather than forward, and it gets frustrating. Because the excuse is always: Well the Republicans did it too...but that doesn't make it right. I know I have excused the behavior of so called "conservatives" at times, and at times I was WRONG to do so,…

I appreciate that RVR.

I can’t speak for everyone, but on the occasions I point out a double-standard, I’m doing that only to point out hypocrisy, not to absolve Obama for any personal failures.
If he fucks up, I want him to be called out.
I think the Cons on here (as well as Deano) are doing a mostly good job of keeping him in check.
But not all criticisms are equal…
The lifeblood of talk radio and, to an extent, Fox News is outrage and anger over something, anything.
As a result, some of the pet peeves on the right these days (no flag lapel, bowing, shoes on the oval office desk) are just petty, random, and stupid.
I’m surprised half get as much media traction as they do.

… but what is going now is a travesty, ramming this bill down our throats for political points is NUTS. There was NO NEED to rush this bill through....and I think starting over would have brought a large group of us together to find the BEST way through...no just throw something out there for the sake of "getting something, ANYTHING done" is just plain not sound thinking, and it reeks of political chicanery.

In purely political terms, I have to give Obama credit for sticking to his guns and seeing this bill through.
Contrary to the characterizations out there, he has not pulled a radical 180.
This bill is pretty much what he campaigned on delivering, (and Hillary for that matter), and he did it.
I don’t think it’s the silver bullet Obama pretends, or the Trojan horse to socialized care the hysterical opposition claims.

Personally, to me, since any insurance pool (gov't or private) requires everyone paying in to offset costs of others, it just makes sense to let that be handled by a centralized gov’t agency like Medicare.
Let businesses be concerned with maximizing profit, not providing healthcare to citizens.

We all know mistakes have been made by both sides of the aisle, REALLY big ones, but we as citizens REALLY need to be forward looking right now. The politicians are running this coutry into the ground...at the risk of being a hypocrite here...if you look back a Rome this is exactly how it collapsed. High taxes, give the masses "bread and circuses" so the elites (Senators etc) could keep their privileged status and Rome fell...we are on that path now and frankly its scary.

Part of the problem in getting libs and cons to agree is that their economists view the crisis in different ways. The Keynsians are pointing to the spending policies of The Great Depression and post-WW2 as the solution (ignoring the fact that our manufacturing sector has since been outsourced). Whereas the Neo-Classical/Conservatives are shouting “STOP!”, and warning of imminent inflation and societal collapse. Whatever the answer is, unity is not likely to be achieved through The Tea Party. At a certain point, you just have to say “fuck it” and accept your role as a spectator in an unfolding Greek tragedy on a national scale.

[7 Wishes]

I find the furious rants by Limbaugh to be the most entertaining of all the Chickenhawk Five, as Rush (in the 80's) suckled off the proverbial teat of the welfare (and free healthcare) system for six years after his unemployment ran out - as he, by his own account, mowed the occasional lawn and mostly sat on his couch, watching TV, and eating potato chips. Now THAT was proactive of him. "Don't do as I did - do as I say you should." What a riot.

[conversationpc]

I find the furious rants by Limbaugh to be the most entertaining of all the Chickenhawk Five, as Rush (in the 80's) suckled off the proverbial teat of the welfare (and free healthcare) system for six years after his unemployment ran out - as he, by his own account, mowed the occasional lawn and mostly sat on his couch, watching TV, and eating potato chips. Now THAT was proactive of him. "Don't do as I did - do as I say you should." What a riot.

I've always thought Limbaugh was an elitist ideologue. His show is insufferable, in my opinion.

[7 Wishes]

Believe it or not, conceptually, I am wrestling with the idea of mandated insurance.

On the one hand, it does seem to infringe, at least in theory, with a basic civil liberty - yet on the other hand, we are required to carry insurance on any vehicle we own and drive.

Additionally, taxpayers foot the bill for anyone without insurance - if someone chooses to not carry insurance but needs urgent care or hospitalization, they cannot be turned down. So we wind up, as as society, paying for it in the long term - perhaps this is where the CBO budgetary reduction figures come into play.

But there is no evidence to suggest legislation that will REDUCE the defecit in the short- and long- term, will conversely "ruin" the economy.

[Lula]

I find the furious rants by Limbaugh to be the most entertaining of all the Chickenhawk Five, as Rush (in the 80's) suckled off the proverbial teat of the welfare (and free healthcare) system for six years after his unemployment ran out - as he, by his own account, mowed the occasional lawn and mostly sat on his couch, watching TV, and eating potato chips. Now THAT was proactive of him. "Don't do as I did - do as I say you should." What a riot.

i had no idea!! wow, really takes his hypocrisy to a whole new level! add this to his rant about drug addicts being criminals, etc...

[RedWingFan]

after his unemployment ran out - as he, by his own account, mowed the occasional lawn and mostly sat on his couch, watching TV, and eating potato chips. Now THAT was proactive of him.

Where'd you get this info from?

[separate_wayz]

Believe it or not, conceptually, I am wrestling with the idea of mandated insurance.

On the one hand, it does seem to infringe, at least in theory, with a basic civil liberty - yet on the other hand, we are required to carry insurance on any vehicle we own and drive.

Additionally, taxpayers foot the bill for anyone without insurance - if someone chooses to not carry insurance but needs urgent care or hospitalization, they cannot be turned down. So we wind up, as as society, paying for it in the long term - perhaps this is where the CBO budgetary reduction figures come into play.

But there is no evidence to suggest legislation that will REDUCE the defecit in the short- and long- term, will conversely "ruin" the economy.

The health care bill as passed will grossly exacerbate the deficit, not in any way reduce it.

Nobody in Washington honestly believes that it will reduce the deficit. The CBO numbers were tweaked by changing the assumptions, with the final result providing political cover for Democrat fencesitters who were worried that they'd be labeled as big spenders.

[conversationpc]

I find the furious rants by Limbaugh to be the most entertaining of all the Chickenhawk Five, as Rush (in the 80's) suckled off the proverbial teat of the welfare (and free healthcare) system for six years after his unemployment ran out - as he, by his own account, mowed the occasional lawn and mostly sat on his couch, watching TV, and eating potato chips. Now THAT was proactive of him. "Don't do as I did - do as I say you should." What a riot.

i had no idea!! wow, really takes his hypocrisy to a whole new level! add this to his rant about drug addicts being criminals, etc...

From what I gather, he was unemployed for eight weeks and drew unemployment for that period of time. Hardly welfare. If it was six years, that's something different and I'd like to see an unbiased source for it. I can't stand Limbaugh but I rarely believe these things on face value until I've researched them.

[RossValoryRocks]

Believe it or not, conceptually, I am wrestling with the idea of mandated insurance.

On the one hand, it does seem to infringe, at least in theory, with a basic civil liberty - yet on the other hand, we are required to carry insurance on any vehicle we own and drive.

Additionally, taxpayers foot the bill for anyone without insurance - if someone chooses to not carry insurance but needs urgent care or hospitalization, they cannot be turned down. So we wind up, as as society, paying for it in the long term - perhaps this is where the CBO budgetary reduction figures come into play.

But there is no evidence to suggest legislation that will REDUCE the defecit in the short- and long- term, will conversely "ruin" the economy.

Buying car insurance is different...because driving is a privilege, the courts have consistently upheld that you don't have a right to drive, therefore the states can mandate you carry insurance.

You have the right to your health and body...either way...to take care of it or not to...that is your right period.

The CBO figures are smoke and mirrors...as I have been saying for a week...you actually think they are going to cut $400 billion from Medicare...I don't mean reduce waste, lower the costs here, I mean CUT as in take it out of the budget? Seriously...a politician??? CUT? Never going to happen.

In addition...the next item on the agenda of the healthcare hit parade is immigration reform...and the democrats are already talking about giving the healthcare to the illegals that are already here...so the CBO projection doesn't include those 14 million people.

WE CANNOT PAY FOR THIS...there is NO WAY to do so without borrowing ASTRONOMICAL sums of money...and NO ONE WILL LEND IT TO US...and if they try and raise taxes (BTW how's that promise the President made about not raising the taxes of people making under $250K going, oh wait...this bill raises my taxes and I don't make $250K/yr....hmmmmmm) to the level needed to support this at all it will tank the economy...so we would be back to borrowing.

Basic math... 1+1=2 right? This bill is trying to make 1+1=5...and it just won't work.

[Rockindeano]

Not only is Limbaugh a hypocrite of the worst kind, he also wanted all drug pushers, addicts and criminals locked up for life...this of course before he became one himself. He promoted the sentence of life in prison for said criminals, except when he got busted..of course Blowhard plea bargained it down to probation of 3 years and no trace of a criminal record. Nice. See, Rush wasn't a criminal, he had an illness. LOL

Or, how about this one? Limbaugh of course didn't serve in the military, he just wants you to do it, or your kids. When the time came for Rush to go, he got a deferment...A deferment for what reason? An inoperative pilonidal cyst..or more commonly called, an in grown hair in your asshole. Talk about a tough cookie? I am sure he would have been a brave soldier in the war. Yet he can make fun of and also create lies about Senator Kerry, who not only voluntarily enlisted for Vietnam, but also won 3 purple hearts and a Congressional medal of Honor for brave service. Typical GOP chicken hawk. Talk up a war, send the blacks and the poor, but leave me out of it!

Go ahead Cons, beat that down with some good ol fashion Swiftboat crap. I know where you're going before you do.

[Rockindeano]

I find the furious rants by Limbaugh to be the most entertaining of all the Chickenhawk Five, as Rush (in the 80's) suckled off the proverbial teat of the welfare (and free healthcare) system for six years after his unemployment ran out - as he, by his own account, mowed the occasional lawn and mostly sat on his couch, watching TV, and eating potato chips. Now THAT was proactive of him. "Don't do as I did - do as I say you should." What a riot.

i had no idea!! wow, really takes his hypocrisy to a whole new level! add this to his rant about drug addicts being criminals, etc...

From what I gather, he was unemployed for eight weeks and drew unemployment for that period of time. Hardly welfare. If it was six years, that's something different and I'd like to see an unbiased source for it. I can't stand Limbaugh but I rarely believe these things on face value until I've researched them.

I figured you would give Limbaugh a pass,or the benefit of the doubt because after all, he is a good republican. If anything, he should never get a fucking pass. Hope he like Cheney, enjoys Hell.

I just gave you two good solid reasons why Limbaugh is a piece of shit, but of course you want it from another source right? I would love to see Senator Kerry kick the living shit out of Limbaugh.

[Rockindeano]

More CON BS- Blah blah blah. The CBO numbers don't mean anything...they won't cut Medicare. They won't do this or that. Blah blah blah. You also all said this won't get done, it's unconstitutional, blah blah blah.

Scoreboard. The bill is now law. You must learn to live with it. It will not be overturned. It will not be repealed.

It's a good law. it will help millions and millions of Americans. it was the right thing to do. Of course I don't expect nor want any of you Pubbies to accept it nor try to. You are sore losers. You got beat, straight up. Obie nutted up and whooped your sorry asses. You better hope this fails, which I am certain you all are. You're only chance at relevancy is for this law not to work as intended. Nowhere to be found is a single republican. A law that helps millions upon millions of your fellow countrymen, and yet not one of you voted for it. Man, how do look in the mirror and feel good about being a republican? I know I couldn't. My condolences.

[RossValoryRocks]

More CON BS- Blah blah blah. The CBO numbers don't mean anything...they won't cut Medicare. They won't do this or that. Blah blah blah. You also all said this won't get done, it's unconstitutional, blah blah blah.

Scoreboard. The bill is now law. You must learn to live with it. It will not be overturned. It will not be repealed.

It's a good law. it will help millions and millions of Americans. it was the right thing to do. Of course I don't expect nor want any of you Pubbies to accept it nor try to. You are sore losers. You got beat, straight up. Obie nutted up and whooped your sorry asses. You better hope this fails, which I am certain you all are. You're only chance at relevancy is for this law not to work as intended. Nowhere to be found is a single republican. A law that helps millions upon millions of your fellow countrymen, and yet not one of you voted for it. Man, how do look in the mirror and feel good about being a republican? I know I couldn't. My condolences.

It is Unconstitutional...10th Amendment...look it up...beyond that we can't afford it...no more than you could afford to just go buy a Ferrari.

As for the rest of your balh blah blah comment...well RockinWino...you still haven't answered one damn question...you just repeat the supporter talking points I hear on MSNBC and don't address a single question with fact other than to continue to cheer the demise of our country because you are looking beyond tomorrow for anything...I however and worried about how my daughter is going to grow up when this country collapses under the weight of it's debt.

I am certainly not against helping my fellow Americans...but how do we pay for it? Answer me that...Hell I'll even give you 10 minutes to run off to the latest liberal blog and find the "answer"...LOL

I think there are some good parts to the bill...I think they could have redone major portions and kept it deficit neutral...but they didn't...and now we all pay. Once again congrats on finishing off what the bone headed Republicans started when they started the spending spree!