Sharia law here in Michigan. Unbelievable

[donnaplease]

But to call me a fool because I question things, develope a theory of my own, and live to try and not do harm while on the earth makes no sense to me. You develope a theory, beleive in it, live your life to do no harm while here and yet you cannot prove your theory either. Yet if I think differently I am to be bashed, made fun of, reprimanded like a stupid child. Why is that?

You know the answer, Ginger.

I like what you said hon. And Rick is an inquisitive soul. I like that about him.

Thanks. Rick is an alright dude in my book too!

[artist4perry]

And no, in 2000 years they won't laugh at todays science, just like we don't laugh at the science of ancient Greek. Ever read up on your Aristotle for example?

I dunno as a Masters degree student who is focusing on Aristotleam metaphysics, logics and ethics, whilst there is much laudable and relevant I do actually think there is a fair bit of in Aristotle which is just plain wrong specifically in some of the scientific and economic areas. not laughable, but stuff we know to be wrong!

ALong the lines of the atheism issue, here is an interesting article from Anthony Flew an athiest at reading who came to the conclusin that there must be a god based on a number of investigations he made , both in the area of metaphysics and science. Im not endorsing what he's saying, but it is an interesting perspective, as someone who became a deist (not a christian, muslim, jew, ect) , he doesnt cheerlead his case like some evangelical tub thumper.

Give it a read. At least it is a thoughtful discussion unlike the craziness on this thread , which has gotta be the craziest thread I ever read on here.

http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/flew-interview.pdf

I am ready to read what you put on here when I have time today. It is an interesting topic.

All I have tried to say today is I have questions and ask questions about all things pertaining to nature and life. I have my own theories, as most of us do. We live by what we believe. I don't expect to recruit anyone to theism by what I have written here today. I just wanted to state my thoughts and perspectives as most of you have. I have not meant to offend, upset, or anger anyone.

But I do have questions and arguements of my own that I should be able to discuss without being disparaged. I have no fear standing up for my beliefs because this is after all a free society where the ability to do so is still a right.

I fear once we go down a road where people are afraid to question anything, or to think for themselves we have traveled a slippery slope that will take away the very thing that makes us civilized.

[artist4perry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXzQD2SRESs

for the guy who said people who believe in God should be stopped. Watch this episode of the twilight zone.

[Behshad]

Parfait , Spend 5 minutes of your precious time and read this. Im not trying to change your mind, just giving you as an example that the existence of God could be proven , while you still hang on to your precious science. Scientists can make erriors . They actually HAVE made errors many times . So just following them blindly like you do and swear by all they say , is in a way YOUR religion and your beliefs. If you lived 3000 years ago, You would be one of the first to laugh at Yajnavalkya when he suggested that the earth may not be flat. You wouldve have call him all the names in the book and tell him he is arguing the scientist at the time who all believed the earth was flat.

----------------------------------------


This is a three part cumulative argument, starting with the weakest and ending with the strongest. The first, although it doesn't prove that
God exists, shows how an atheist lives inconsistently with their belief.

The second lays down all the empirical facts and shows that the best explanation for all of the facts is that God exists. And the
third is the scientific argument which shows that even science points to a God. Keep in mind that no presumption made can be proved as true
for CERTAIN. I'm simply showing you that the belief in a theistic universe is the best explaination for the world's existence. The
scientific theories that I will use to back up the argument for the existence of God have not yet been disproved and are all backed up with
strong evidence such as the Principle of Causality, the Big Bang Theory, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

IF YOUR PRESUMPTION THAT "THERE IS NO THEISTIC UNIVERSE" IS BASED ON SCIENTIFIC THEORIES OTHER
THAN THE THEORIES JUST MENTIONED, PLEASE TELL ME AND EXPLAIN, BUT FIRST READ THROUGH WHY I THINK THEY POINT TO GOD.

I) Psychological Argument For The Existence Of God.

Either God exists or He doesn't. If God doesn't exist then there are three things that are true.

A) Life holds no ULTIMATE significance. Even if you argued that there is significance in
your life such as the enjoyment of doing anything you want, it would not be the Ultimate significance because everyone who has lived
or will live in the future will eventually end up in the grave. Even if reincarnation exists everyone will still die and become nothing because
the world is slowly deteriorating down to nothing itself.

B) Life has no value. Everthing is permissible. There is no such thing is right and wrong because there is no all knowing and all
powerful Creator to define what is good and what is bad. It becomes society who tries to define it. What does that matter though if the
people making laws define right from wrong. They are just as human as any other person in the world. The only thing that truly exists is
personal preference. What Hitler, Stalin, or any other mass murderer did was not wrong at all. They simply had a different personal
preference than you do. The point is, you shouldn't tell anyone that they are wrong or even right because they aren't either of those
things. You can believe that its wrong, but you have no place to ground it. People can do anything they want to do without getting
punished for their actions if the world lived consistently with the belief that God doesn't exist.

C) There is no purpose to life. Life has no ultimate goal. There is no reason for living. Sacrifice for someone else's life would be stupid.


This argument shows that an atheist lives inconsistently with their own belief. If a murderer who believed murder to be ok, came into your
house to brutally murder you and your family, would you think that HE is wrong to do that? If you said no, that he isn't doing any thing
wrong, then you would be living consistantly with your beliefs. But if you said yes, then you would live as if there were objective morals.
But if there is no god to define objective morality then there is only subjective morality. So by saying it is wrong makes it only your
opinion, but not the murderers opinion. You would be "pushing your morality on him" which is the opposite of what you believe. You
probably believe that "it is wrong to push your morality on another person." Even that statement right there is another objective moral
statement. In other words you express your opinions, but don't always live by them.

II) Probable argument.

Scientist say that if you have a group of facts out there, you should have a paradigm that best explains these facts. Here are the facts that
everyone who's sane would agree on.

A) Religious experience
What ever culture you go into, people are incurably religious. In every culture you see three things.

1) Everyone, except the atheist, worships a being higher than themselves.
2) Everyone has a morality they cannot keep.
3) Everyone is psychologically unsatisfied. People feel an emptiness in themselves that they want to fill. If the material world
was the only thing that existed and if all your material needs were met, you should be satesfied right? But how come people who have the
most wealth are usually the most unhappy. They constantly want more and more.
And how can you explain the millions of peoplein the world who say they have felt the closeness of God in their lives? I
personally am included with them. I have felt God's presence in my life on a consistent basis. Now how can you rationally explain that without
God's existence?

B) Miracles.
There are many people in the world who report seeing miracles. In other words there are people who say that they saw a situation occur
where there is no naturalistic explanation for it. I personally know people who have had miraculous situations occur, such as immediate
healings. You might argue that science will someday explain those things, but right now you can't explain them. The best explaination is
God, because if God created the world then it wouldn't be hard to believe that he can intervene supernaturally in this world.

C) Morality
How do you explain where guilt comes from? How do you explain why all people in the world have this feeling called a conscience that
seems to tell them that something is wrong, such as murder. How come people feel a heavy weight on their emotions called guilt when they do
something wrong, such as lie and steal, and the best thing to do to take the weight off themselves is to tell the truth and/or ask for
forgiveness. If God doesn't exist, then how could you rationally explain all that?

D) Design
First of all, explain the existence of the world. How can you have something and not nothing? We see a world so complex that it looks like
someone designed it. It has an incredible amount of order to it. If you walked on a beach and saw the words "I love you" written in the sand,
would you say, "Isn't it funny how the water by random chance formed those words in the sand." No, you would think that some person wrote
those words themselves. If you took apart a computer and examined the complex parts, would you say, "Isn't it funny how a building with
mechanical parts exploded and by random chance came together and created this computer." no, you would think that an intelligent
designer spent his time to put the computer together. But how come you see a world full of more complexity and order then every man made
structure put together and you assume that no intelligent designer created it? A single strand of DNA has more information on it then the
whole Encyclopedia Britannica. You can't even explain it without God.
Tell me, have you ever seen design and never a designer? You might say that science will explain these questions in the future. Do you
think then that the belief in God's existence is stupid? I'm just being what any truly rational person should be, looking at the facts and
choosing the best explanation for all those facts. That's how any scientific hypotheses works. But you still don't want to believe in
God. You are simply not being a rational person with any of the facts that we have. You just don't want to believe it, not for intellectual
reasons, but because you just don't want do believe it period, with no evidence on your side.

THESE THINGS ARE OUT THERE AND THEY NEED AN EXPLAINATION FOR HOW THEY
EXIST. NO ONE CAN BE ABSOLUTLY CERTAIN OF HOW THESE THINGS CAME TO BE.
YOU CAN ONLY FIND THE BEST EXPLAINATION, WHICH IS WHY I BELEIVE IN A
THEISTIC UNIVERSE.

III) The Cosmological argument

A) Principle of Causality: Everything that comes to be needs a cause. All science is built on the principle of causality. If it didn't
exist then we would have to remove the word "because" from our
language. How could we really talk without it?

B) Since something cannot come from nothing, something has to be eternal. It's either God or the World.

C) In 1929 a man named Edward Hubble discovered that the redness of the stars showed that the universe was constantly expanding
equilaterally in all directions. He said that the best explanation for that is that there must have been a point in time, called the Big Bang
theory where the universe was nothing and then came to be.

D) To further the evidence for the universe having a beginning, there is the scientific law, the 2nd law of Thermodynamics. It says
heat moves from hotter bodies to cooler bodies until there is an equilibrium. In other words the universe is constantly winding down
until there is a heat death in our universe. That just goes to prove that if the world was eternal then heat death would have already
occurred, but since it hasn't occured yet, the universe had to have a beginning. You might say, "Maybe new heat is being put into the
universe. But the 1st law of Thermodynamics goes against it because it says that there is no new energy being put into the universe. Since
everything that comes to be (the world) needs a cause, the best explanation for this is God. Because there is only two explanations
that we see exist. 1. God, and 2. the World. God is the best explanation between the two.

The evidence has finally been laid out for you.

[Arianddu]

Believe your part worm, fish, and monkey. Explain why they still exist. I have all of eternity to wait.

Because evolution isn't linear, it is eternally branching, like the ultimate family tree. My uncle is not my daughter and will never be so. This is something I don't understand, Ginger - why assume that evolution being correct is contrary to God creating life? It seems to me that if you believe in God, the processes involved in evolution would make for the most godlike tools imaginable. That's something I've never understood - why people have this idea that belief in an omnipotent God and acceptance of evolutionary theory are incompatible. We don't find the theory that the earth goes around the sun to be incompatible with a belief in God, so why this? Just because we learn how the clock works, and we come up with ideas of how it was made, doesn't mean we know anything about the clockmaker. Do we really need to believe that the hands move because the clockmaker's finger is pushing it?

As for scientist stating the earth is flat, I'm sorry Ginger, but that is totally and utterly wrong; the worst kind of lie because it's usually repeated in ignorance. Scientists have NEVER claimed the earth was flat; they worked out very early on that the earth is round. Only the uneducated looked around them and said 'what I see looks flat, therefore the earth must be flat.' Scientists looked around and said 'hmm, if I climb a mountain, I can see further towards the horizon than if I am on a plain; how does that work? Hmmm, if the earth is curved, then that would explain it. And no matter how far I travel it stays the same. The most logical explaination is that the earth is round all the way.'

[artist4perry]

Believe your part worm, fish, and monkey. Explain why they still exist. I have all of eternity to wait.

Because evolution isn't linear, it is eternally branching, like the ultimate family tree. My uncle is not my daughter and will never be so. This is something I don't understand, Ginger - why assume that evolution being correct is contrary to God creating life? It seems to me that if you believe in God, the processes involved in evolution would make for the most godlike tools imaginable. That's something I've never understood - why people have this idea that belief in an omnipotent God and acceptance of evolutionary theory are incompatible. We don't find the theory that the earth goes around the sun to be incompatible with a belief in God, so why this? Just because we learn how the clock works, and we come up with ideas of how it was made, doesn't mean we know anything about the clockmaker. Do we really need to believe that the hands move because the clockmaker's finger is pushing it?

As for scientist stating the earth is flat, I'm sorry Ginger, but that is totally and utterly wrong; the worst kind of lie because it's usually repeated in ignorance. Scientists have NEVER claimed the earth was flat; they worked out very early on that the earth is round. Only the uneducated looked around them and said 'what I see looks flat, therefore the earth must be flat.' Scientists looked around and said 'hmm, if I climb a mountain, I can see further towards the horizon than if I am on a plain; how does that work? Hmmm, if the earth is curved, then that would explain it. And no matter how far I travel it stays the same. The most logical explaination is that the earth is round all the way.'

Ari, I love you dearly. Sigh..............I do not have a problem with things that change due to adaptation to environment. Only that one thing becomes another. I have seen no proof that is without question that supports this theory. And that is why I question it. Science supports the theory of creation in many ways too, that is what I am saying. And though I trust you allow me the right to question all theories, and to ponder why science has come to one conclusion or another, I asked these things of those who would impose their thoughts on me and call me a fool for having different thoughts, conclusions, or ideals.

Scientists of the time when all thought the earth was flat did threaten those who questioned its roundness. The bible itself says the world is round. I cannot remember exactly where, but when I find it again I will tell you if you wish. Why didn't the scientists of that time refute the flatness of the world? Who declaired it flat? And what about the leeches? How about ulcers are formed because of stress and worry. In just recent years scientist found it is a type of bacteria that forms ulcers. All I am saying is science in itself should always question ALL theories, not dismiss them without cause, or because they don't want to believe in what theories they don't want to. Science should not be just what the scientist want to prove. It should have more objectivity to it. And to not allow a type of question to be even thought is not scientific.

[Michigan Girl]

Nobody alive on this earth knows if there is a god or gods, or what kind of god/s it/they might be. To believe in any religion is to believe with blind faith in something that you have been taught, or indoctrinated, to believe. I haven't accepted anything on blind faith since Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Science gives me something tangible, factual rather than the fantasy and mythology created by people living in a time of ignorance.

I don't call myself an atheist because I don't think you necessarily must "be" one "thing" if your not another "thing". The only "things" that I am are a human, a female, a mother, a wife and a grandmother.

I don't like being lumped into a category whether it's a religious, political or fan (loon) category. Religion is one of the ways that humans categorize themselves. If you have branded yourself in a religion then you've lumped yourself into that category and there are many generalizations that can be made about you because of the doctrine of your chosen religion. If those generalizations don't apply to you then you are not living according to the doctrine of your religion and are therefore something of a hypocrite.

You can't be "a little bit baptist" or "almost catholic" or "sort of muslem". Either you are or you aren't.

If you don't identify yourself with any particular sect but just sort of freelance your religion then there are still several generalities that can apply to you. One of them is that you're gullible because you allow yourself to believe something for which you have no tangible proof. Since it is fact rather than opinion that religion has been the cause of more bloodshed than any other single cause and yet you still support it, one can also assume that you think it's OK to kill anybody who doesn't believe in your god. You know, sort of like Al Qaeda and the Taliban.

Feelings about god are a little bit like feelings in general, unique to each individual.
I have faith, blind faith, and the wonderful thing about my faith is that I don’t have to
explain myself, provide evidence or deny its existence.
I’m categorized every day based on my likes, dislikes, personality and character,
these categories define who I am and not being religious isn’t going to change
being categorized, it will just change the category.
Generalizations are going to be made no matter the category … I’m a sinner, Christians just are!!
BTW~ You're lumped into many more categories than you have listed ...here alone

[S2M]

Parfait , Spend 5 minutes of your precious time and read this. Im not trying to change your mind, just giving you as an example that the existence of God could be proven , while you still hang on to your precious science. Scientists can make erriors . They actually HAVE made errors many times . So just following them blindly like you do and swear by all they say , is in a way YOUR religion and your beliefs. If you lived 3000 years ago, You would be one of the first to laugh at Yajnavalkya when he suggested that the earth may not be flat. You wouldve have call him all the names in the book and tell him he is arguing the scientist at the time who all believed the earth was flat.

----------------------------------------


This is a three part cumulative argument, starting with the weakest and ending with the strongest. The first, although it doesn't prove that
God exists, shows how an atheist lives inconsistently with their belief.

The second lays down all the empirical facts and shows that the best explanation for all of the facts is that God exists. And the
third is the scientific argument which shows that even science points to a God. Keep in mind that no presumption made can be proved as true
for CERTAIN. I'm simply showing you that the belief in a theistic universe is the best explaination for the world's existence. The
scientific theories that I will use to back up the argument for the existence of God have not yet been disproved and are all backed up with
strong evidence such as the Principle of Causality, the Big Bang Theory, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

IF YOUR PRESUMPTION THAT "THERE IS NO THEISTIC UNIVERSE" IS BASED ON SCIENTIFIC THEORIES OTHER
THAN THE THEORIES JUST MENTIONED, PLEASE TELL ME AND EXPLAIN, BUT FIRST READ THROUGH WHY I THINK THEY POINT TO GOD.

I) Psychological Argument For The Existence Of God.

Either God exists or He doesn't. If God doesn't exist then there are three things that are true.

A) Life holds no ULTIMATE significance. Even if you argued that there is significance in
your life such as the enjoyment of doing anything you want, it would not be the Ultimate significance because everyone who has lived
or will live in the future will eventually end up in the grave. Even if reincarnation exists everyone will still die and become nothing because
the world is slowly deteriorating down to nothing itself.

B) Life has no value. Everthing is permissible. There is no such thing is right and wrong because there is no all knowing and all
powerful Creator to define what is good and what is bad. It becomes society who tries to define it. What does that matter though if the
people making laws define right from wrong. They are just as human as any other person in the world. The only thing that truly exists is
personal preference. What Hitler, Stalin, or any other mass murderer did was not wrong at all. They simply had a different personal
preference than you do. The point is, you shouldn't tell anyone that they are wrong or even right because they aren't either of those
things. You can believe that its wrong, but you have no place to ground it. People can do anything they want to do without getting
punished for their actions if the world lived consistently with the belief that God doesn't exist.

C) There is no purpose to life. Life has no ultimate goal. There is no reason for living. Sacrifice for someone else's life would be stupid.


This argument shows that an atheist lives inconsistently with their own belief. If a murderer who believed murder to be ok, came into your
house to brutally murder you and your family, would you think that HE is wrong to do that? If you said no, that he isn't doing any thing
wrong, then you would be living consistantly with your beliefs. But if you said yes, then you would live as if there were objective morals.
But if there is no god to define objective morality then there is only subjective morality. So by saying it is wrong makes it only your
opinion, but not the murderers opinion. You would be "pushing your morality on him" which is the opposite of what you believe. You
probably believe that "it is wrong to push your morality on another person." Even that statement right there is another objective moral
statement. In other words you express your opinions, but don't always live by them.

II) Probable argument.

Scientist say that if you have a group of facts out there, you should have a paradigm that best explains these facts. Here are the facts that
everyone who's sane would agree on.

A) Religious experience
What ever culture you go into, people are incurably religious. In every culture you see three things.

1) Everyone, except the atheist, worships a being higher than themselves.
2) Everyone has a morality they cannot keep.
3) Everyone is psychologically unsatisfied. People feel an emptiness in themselves that they want to fill. If the material world
was the only thing that existed and if all your material needs were met, you should be satesfied right? But how come people who have the
most wealth are usually the most unhappy. They constantly want more and more.
And how can you explain the millions of peoplein the world who say they have felt the closeness of God in their lives? I
personally am included with them. I have felt God's presence in my life on a consistent basis. Now how can you rationally explain that without
God's existence?

B) Miracles.
There are many people in the world who report seeing miracles. In other words there are people who say that they saw a situation occur
where there is no naturalistic explanation for it. I personally know people who have had miraculous situations occur, such as immediate
healings. You might argue that science will someday explain those things, but right now you can't explain them. The best explaination is
God, because if God created the world then it wouldn't be hard to believe that he can intervene supernaturally in this world.

C) Morality
How do you explain where guilt comes from? How do you explain why all people in the world have this feeling called a conscience that
seems to tell them that something is wrong, such as murder. How come people feel a heavy weight on their emotions called guilt when they do
something wrong, such as lie and steal, and the best thing to do to take the weight off themselves is to tell the truth and/or ask for
forgiveness. If God doesn't exist, then how could you rationally explain all that?

D) Design
First of all, explain the existence of the world. How can you have something and not nothing? We see a world so complex that it looks like
someone designed it. It has an incredible amount of order to it. If you walked on a beach and saw the words "I love you" written in the sand,
would you say, "Isn't it funny how the water by random chance formed those words in the sand." No, you would think that some person wrote
those words themselves. If you took apart a computer and examined the complex parts, would you say, "Isn't it funny how a building with
mechanical parts exploded and by random chance came together and created this computer." no, you would think that an intelligent
designer spent his time to put the computer together. But how come you see a world full of more complexity and order then every man made
structure put together and you assume that no intelligent designer created it? A single strand of DNA has more information on it then the
whole Encyclopedia Britannica. You can't even explain it without God.
Tell me, have you ever seen design and never a designer? You might say that science will explain these questions in the future. Do you
think then that the belief in God's existence is stupid? I'm just being what any truly rational person should be, looking at the facts and
choosing the best explanation for all those facts. That's how any scientific hypotheses works. But you still don't want to believe in
God. You are simply not being a rational person with any of the facts that we have. You just don't want to believe it, not for intellectual
reasons, but because you just don't want do believe it period, with no evidence on your side.

THESE THINGS ARE OUT THERE AND THEY NEED AN EXPLAINATION FOR HOW THEY
EXIST. NO ONE CAN BE ABSOLUTLY CERTAIN OF HOW THESE THINGS CAME TO BE.
YOU CAN ONLY FIND THE BEST EXPLAINATION, WHICH IS WHY I BELEIVE IN A
THEISTIC UNIVERSE.

III) The Cosmological argument

A) Principle of Causality: Everything that comes to be needs a cause. All science is built on the principle of causality. If it didn't
exist then we would have to remove the word "because" from our
language. How could we really talk without it?

B) Since something cannot come from nothing, something has to be eternal. It's either God or the World.

C) In 1929 a man named Edward Hubble discovered that the redness of the stars showed that the universe was constantly expanding
equilaterally in all directions. He said that the best explanation for that is that there must have been a point in time, called the Big Bang
theory where the universe was nothing and then came to be.

D) To further the evidence for the universe having a beginning, there is the scientific law, the 2nd law of Thermodynamics. It says
heat moves from hotter bodies to cooler bodies until there is an equilibrium. In other words the universe is constantly winding down
until there is a heat death in our universe. That just goes to prove that if the world was eternal then heat death would have already
occurred, but since it hasn't occured yet, the universe had to have a beginning. You might say, "Maybe new heat is being put into the
universe. But the 1st law of Thermodynamics goes against it because it says that there is no new energy being put into the universe. Since
everything that comes to be (the world) needs a cause, the best explanation for this is God. Because there is only two explanations
that we see exist. 1. God, and 2. the World. God is the best explanation between the two.

The evidence has finally been laid out for you.

B....you are absolutely wrong. Religion is based on morality, but morality isn't based on religion....I'm in no way, shape, or form religious....but I consider myself a moral person....

[S2M]

I refer you to this topic from long ago....

http://forums.melodicrock.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=27646&highlight=divine+command+theory

[parfait]

Parfait , Spend 5 minutes of your precious time and read this. Im not trying to change your mind, just giving you as an example that the existence of God could be proven , while you still hang on to your precious science. Scientists can make erriors . They actually HAVE made errors many times . So just following them blindly like you do and swear by all they say , is in a way YOUR religion and your beliefs. If you lived 3000 years ago, You would be one of the first to laugh at Yajnavalkya when he suggested that the earth may not be flat. You wouldve have call him all the names in the book and tell him he is arguing the scientist at the time who all believed the earth was flat.

----------------------------------------


This is a three part cumulative argument, starting with the weakest and ending with the strongest. The first, although it doesn't prove that
God exists, shows how an atheist lives inconsistently with their belief.

The second lays down all the empirical facts and shows that the best explanation for all of the facts is that God exists. And the
third is the scientific argument which shows that even science points to a God. Keep in mind that no presumption made can be proved as true
for CERTAIN. I'm simply showing you that the belief in a theistic universe is the best explaination for the world's existence. The
scientific theories that I will use to back up the argument for the existence of God have not yet been disproved and are all backed up with
strong evidence such as the Principle of Causality, the Big Bang Theory, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

IF YOUR PRESUMPTION THAT "THERE IS NO THEISTIC UNIVERSE" IS BASED ON SCIENTIFIC THEORIES OTHER
THAN THE THEORIES JUST MENTIONED, PLEASE TELL ME AND EXPLAIN, BUT FIRST READ THROUGH WHY I THINK THEY POINT TO GOD.

I) Psychological Argument For The Existence Of God.

Either God exists or He doesn't. If God doesn't exist then there are three things that are true.

A) Life holds no ULTIMATE significance. Even if you argued that there is significance in
your life such as the enjoyment of doing anything you want, it would not be the Ultimate significance because everyone who has lived
or will live in the future will eventually end up in the grave. Even if reincarnation exists everyone will still die and become nothing because
the world is slowly deteriorating down to nothing itself.

B) Life has no value. Everthing is permissible. There is no such thing is right and wrong because there is no all knowing and all
powerful Creator to define what is good and what is bad. It becomes society who tries to define it. What does that matter though if the
people making laws define right from wrong. They are just as human as any other person in the world. The only thing that truly exists is
personal preference. What Hitler, Stalin, or any other mass murderer did was not wrong at all. They simply had a different personal
preference than you do. The point is, you shouldn't tell anyone that they are wrong or even right because they aren't either of those
things. You can believe that its wrong, but you have no place to ground it. People can do anything they want to do without getting
punished for their actions if the world lived consistently with the belief that God doesn't exist.

C) There is no purpose to life. Life has no ultimate goal. There is no reason for living. Sacrifice for someone else's life would be stupid.


This argument shows that an atheist lives inconsistently with their own belief. If a murderer who believed murder to be ok, came into your
house to brutally murder you and your family, would you think that HE is wrong to do that? If you said no, that he isn't doing any thing
wrong, then you would be living consistantly with your beliefs. But if you said yes, then you would live as if there were objective morals.
But if there is no god to define objective morality then there is only subjective morality. So by saying it is wrong makes it only your
opinion, but not the murderers opinion. You would be "pushing your morality on him" which is the opposite of what you believe. You
probably believe that "it is wrong to push your morality on another person." Even that statement right there is another objective moral
statement. In other words you express your opinions, but don't always live by them.

II) Probable argument.

Scientist say that if you have a group of facts out there, you should have a paradigm that best explains these facts. Here are the facts that
everyone who's sane would agree on.

A) Religious experience
What ever culture you go into, people are incurably religious. In every culture you see three things.

1) Everyone, except the atheist, worships a being higher than themselves.
2) Everyone has a morality they cannot keep.
3) Everyone is psychologically unsatisfied. People feel an emptiness in themselves that they want to fill. If the material world
was the only thing that existed and if all your material needs were met, you should be satesfied right? But how come people who have the
most wealth are usually the most unhappy. They constantly want more and more.
And how can you explain the millions of peoplein the world who say they have felt the closeness of God in their lives? I
personally am included with them. I have felt God's presence in my life on a consistent basis. Now how can you rationally explain that without
God's existence?

B) Miracles.
There are many people in the world who report seeing miracles. In other words there are people who say that they saw a situation occur
where there is no naturalistic explanation for it. I personally know people who have had miraculous situations occur, such as immediate
healings. You might argue that science will someday explain those things, but right now you can't explain them. The best explaination is
God, because if God created the world then it wouldn't be hard to believe that he can intervene supernaturally in this world.

C) Morality
How do you explain where guilt comes from? How do you explain why all people in the world have this feeling called a conscience that
seems to tell them that something is wrong, such as murder. How come people feel a heavy weight on their emotions called guilt when they do
something wrong, such as lie and steal, and the best thing to do to take the weight off themselves is to tell the truth and/or ask for
forgiveness. If God doesn't exist, then how could you rationally explain all that?

D) Design
First of all, explain the existence of the world. How can you have something and not nothing? We see a world so complex that it looks like
someone designed it. It has an incredible amount of order to it. If you walked on a beach and saw the words "I love you" written in the sand,
would you say, "Isn't it funny how the water by random chance formed those words in the sand." No, you would think that some person wrote
those words themselves. If you took apart a computer and examined the complex parts, would you say, "Isn't it funny how a building with
mechanical parts exploded and by random chance came together and created this computer." no, you would think that an intelligent
designer spent his time to put the computer together. But how come you see a world full of more complexity and order then every man made
structure put together and you assume that no intelligent designer created it? A single strand of DNA has more information on it then the
whole Encyclopedia Britannica. You can't even explain it without God.
Tell me, have you ever seen design and never a designer? You might say that science will explain these questions in the future. Do you
think then that the belief in God's existence is stupid? I'm just being what any truly rational person should be, looking at the facts and
choosing the best explanation for all those facts. That's how any scientific hypotheses works. But you still don't want to believe in
God. You are simply not being a rational person with any of the facts that we have. You just don't want to believe it, not for intellectual
reasons, but because you just don't want do believe it period, with no evidence on your side.

THESE THINGS ARE OUT THERE AND THEY NEED AN EXPLAINATION FOR HOW THEY
EXIST. NO ONE CAN BE ABSOLUTLY CERTAIN OF HOW THESE THINGS CAME TO BE.
YOU CAN ONLY FIND THE BEST EXPLAINATION, WHICH IS WHY I BELEIVE IN A
THEISTIC UNIVERSE.

III) The Cosmological argument

A) Principle of Causality: Everything that comes to be needs a cause. All science is built on the principle of causality. If it didn't
exist then we would have to remove the word "because" from our
language. How could we really talk without it?

B) Since something cannot come from nothing, something has to be eternal. It's either God or the World.

C) In 1929 a man named Edward Hubble discovered that the redness of the stars showed that the universe was constantly expanding
equilaterally in all directions. He said that the best explanation for that is that there must have been a point in time, called the Big Bang
theory where the universe was nothing and then came to be.

D) To further the evidence for thhttp://forums.melodicrock.com/phpBB/p ... 95d4c6a00e universe having a beginning, there is the scientific law, the 2nd law of Thermodynamics. It says
heat moves from hotter bodies to cooler bodies until there is an equilibrium. In other words the universe is constantly winding down
until there is a heat death in our universe. That just goes to prove that if the world was eternal then heat death would have already
occurred, but since it hasn't occured yet, the universe had to have a beginning. You might say, "Maybe new heat is being put into the
universe. But the 1st law of Thermodynamics goes against it because it says that there is no new energy being put into the universe. Since
everything that comes to be (the world) needs a cause, the best explanation for this is God. Because there is only two explanations
that we see exist. 1. God, and 2. the World. God is the best explanation between the two.

The evidence has finally been laid out for you.

Alright, I'll take this thing point by point. Now, first of all; you showed me no evidence. The only thing this crap told me was that one guy out there with the help of quasi science, tries to validate the existence of God. That's now how science works. Far from it. Science is the collective effort of many, contributing to OUR own reality.

- "Life holds no ultimate significance." Yes it does. Life is what you make of it. Why do people need to make up fantasy stories about some paradise in the after-life to make this life bearable? This is the one chance we'll get. Make the most of it.

- "Life has no value". That one is retarded. So, you people need some magical dude with a beard to tell you people what's right and wrong? Look at every secular society out there - a lack of religion does not equate to having some nihilistic anarchy. Far from it. I'd say secular societies like France is much better off than, let's say Iran.

- "There is no purpose to life". Talk about metaphysical crap. Find your own purpose in life, if it's gardening, being with your family or getting laid; I don't care. But from evolutionary standpoint; the purpose of life is to breed.

Religion do not have a right to claim moral and ethics their own. That's false. Religion is as immoral as it gets, because religion takes away a person's right to be responsible for his/her own actions, which all ethics are based on.

"Religious experience." Yes, I can explain why you have felt the presence of God. It's a simple psychological response. Nothing fancy about it.

"Miracles" Same thing here. People, often uneducated, see something they would think is not possible, and call it a miracle. Every god damn miracle that has been scientifically studied have been shown to be false. Stigmata for example is nothing more than a symptom of a hysterical religious individual with issociative identity disorders, especially the link between dietary constriction by self-starvation, dissociative mental states and self-mutilation, in the context of a religious belief. Anorexia nervosa cases often display self-mutilation similar to stigmata as part of a ritualistic, obsessive compulsive disorder. If I hadn't known better, I'd call a lunar eclipse for a miracle. Sure looks pretty cool and magical. But no, I know better cause I've been thought the science behind a lunar eclipse.

"Morality" Consciousness is a umbrella term for a lot of things. But from a anatomical standpoint, it's a large amount of mechanisms that in conjunction with our upbringing makes out our own personality. I have a consciousness not because God has told me what's right and wrong, cause then fuck me, he would suck at it. The people that lack a consciousness in the sense the author means, is either suffering from some mental disorder, sociopathy for example, or was brought up in a place where he didn't learn what in our society, we think is right from wrong. Child soldiers in Rwanda for example is kidnapped at a early age and learns a set of morals that, to us, is totally disgusting, so they do now see the harm in taking another life. You see? There's a rational explanation for it. I bet the douchebag writing this article thinks he's all that, throwing fancy words left and right. Well, I'm 19 and easily got the skill to beat him with some simple source checking.

"Design" Complexity does not imply design. Life or objects are described as "orderly" or "ordered", which implies that an intelligent designer has ordered them. However, in reality, there are examples of systems that are non-random or ordered simply because it is following natural physical processes, for example diamonds or snowflakes; however, these particular systems are repetitive in nature that are less complex than a non-repetitive system like DNA. The design claim is often challenged as an argument from ignorance, since it is often unexplained or unsupported, or explained by unscientific conjecture. Supporters of design assume that natural objects and man-made objects have similar properties, therefore both must be designed. However, different objects can have similar properties for different reasons, such as stars and light bulbs. Proponents must therefore demonstrate that only design can cause orderly systems or the argument is invalid.

It is often claimed that a designed organism would contradict evolutionary theory. As most professional biologists support the theory of biological evolution by means of natural selection, they reject the first premise, arguing that evolution is not only an alternative explanation for the complexity of life but a better explanation with more supporting evidence. Living organisms obey the same physical laws as inanimate objects. A range of chemical reactions could take place, forming other chemicals with complex properties and ways of interacting. Over very long periods of time self-replicating structures could arise and later form DNA. This has in fact been demonstrated artificially via the Avida program (check it out, it's cool stuff), which can construct complex programs without being given any design (similar programs have had similar results with building machines). Thus biologists commonly view the design argument as an unimpressive argument for the existence of a God. It's the Occam's razor again. You can't explain it with your religious humbug, so you say; "fuck it, it's designed by God. No need to talk more about it. No. No! That's how it is"

All current evidence points to the non existence of God. It's a faith people. A FAITH! Don't make it anything else than that. Puh-lease. Now, sure, some things aren't worked out yet, but that doesn't mean God exist. The best explanation is that there is no God (if scientific studies is evidence that is, which it isn't for religious people). I believe in the Glittery Omnipotent Hand of the Jockstraps. You people can't tell me he doesn't exist, cause I know he does. I know it!

"Principle of casualty" The guy need to read up on physics. Cause that makes no sense.

" Something from nothing" Experiments in support of quantum theory have shown that particles are continually created and destroyed by "fluctuations in the void". The question is whether some form of physical "void" can be identified with the philosophical logical or metaphysical concept of "nothing" or "nothingness".It is argued, for example by Victor J. Stenger, that the universe could have come from nothing. The positive energy bound up in matter being balanced by the negative energy of gravitation which is responsible for the expansion of the universe.Logically it can be argued that if the universe, including space-time itself, as well as matter and energy, is "everything that exists" then there can be nothing (i.e. there cannot be anything) outside or before it.

Remember that astrophysics is a field that will in time bring some great discoveries. Dark energy, dark matter - a lot of it can't be explained yet because we don't have the technology to do so. But again, this douchebag yaps about metaphysical things, and tries to apply to science - that's not possible!

" ----=----" Same with this one.

"Thermodynamics" Again, the guy bends science to his will, making some quasi assumption. It's a dumb eschatological question. Read this if you want to know more about how thermodynamics really work http://www.enotes.com/science-religion-encyclopedia/thermodynamics-second-law

That should be about it. Please people, just cause you can't explain it with your minuscule amount of knowledge, don't start giving all the props to a "creator". There's a reason why most of the students and professors in universites are either deist or atheist - cause they have the knowledge to KNOW BETTER. There is not one single shred of real evidence to the existence of God. Not one. If it is, please show me the math of it. Show me the evidence. That paper was just a load of philosophical soft morish crap.

Have your faith. You don't need evidence for that or explain yourself. It's your own personal choice to have faith in whatever you want. But call it what it is: BLIND FAITH - a believe in something that is physically impossible. Have faith in your self and the people around you, don't get rid of your problems by talking to some made up man in the sky.

Alright - record breaking long and boring ass point. Why the hell did I spend 20 minutes of my life writing this? That is it for me for a while anyways. Going on a two week sailing trip in the Caribbean sea, starting on Guadeloupe on Saturday.

[Behshad]

Gael,
We can go back and forth on this, point is NO ONE can prove that God does NOT exist. Until the day its proven one way or the other, we just have to agree to disagree..... Just know that I dont asks the man in the sky for help for my actions,,, I pray to him for people in need and people suffering,,,,Huge difference.... without faith, we would be just like animals....

[ohsherrie]

Wow.......... I am sorry sherrie, but because some nut jobs killed in the past in the name of God, the dog Son of sam, or whatever they use to justify killing does not make all religious faith lumped into one catagory. How does a faith that beleives in peaceful existance, obeying the laws of the land, and helping others hurt anyone? Show me this please.

I didn't say everybody who was religious was a killer and I didn't say people who believe peaceful existance, obeying the laws of the land, were hurting others. You're trying to personalize my general comments and if you take it personally that's on you not me.

For this I have been told I should be stopped, punished, eradicated and called a fool who believes in fairy tales. I draw whimsy and fantasy. I know this is part of my imagination. But why do we have imagination?

Drama much? Who said anything about eradicating you or anybody else? It's historically been the christians and muslems trying to eradicate any belief other than their own. I'm not trying to convince anybody to abandon their beliefs, I'm just trying to get reliosoes to quit trying to impose their beliefs on me by influencing the societal and cultural mores in the country where I live and have a right to the same freedom of religious choice as they do. But with me it's not actually a matter of choice because I can't force or fool myself into believing what my mind won't accept as realistically possible.

I have tons of questions on the origins of life, I question how nature works all the time. I study bone structures, muscles, and closely document in drawings the very miniscule features of everything I see. I have questions about theories of science, and study them often. What is the use of our existence if we are just to live, and to die, and become the dirt. We are nothing but future dust to be blown about with no hope or use. I question things of this nature all the time. You see, I love to learn things every day.

I have questions too and nothing in the bible answers them satisfactorily. Science, if not answering every question, at least gives me facts that I can believe. I may not like reality, but I can't dupe myself into living in a fantasy to keep from facing it.

But to call me a fool because I question things, develope a theory of my own, and live to try and not do harm while on the earth makes no sense to me. You develope a theory, beleive in it, live your life to do no harm while here and yet you cannot prove your theory either. Yet if I think differently I am to be bashed, made fun of, reprimanded like a stupid child. Why is that?

I don't think I used the word "fool" in my post. I said you're gullible. To me that means somebody who is easily convinced of irrational things and to me all religiosoes are just that where their religion is concerned. That includes many people who I love very much so it's not meant as an insult, just a statement of fact. Maybe you wouldn't buy snake oil from a huckster but from my point of view you buy the impossible from another form of huckster.

I also never "reprimanded" you or anybody else. You sure are taking on a lot of angst over this. Chill it's just a discussion not a heresy trial or inquisition.

[Don]

A big difference between the two is that Science welcomes challenge and skepticism. It is only through the constant testing and experimentation in hopes of disproving a theory that it can actually be entertained as a fact. Religion, on the other hand is great at being an emotional crutch but beyond that, it draws the line against any real analysis, falling back onto the pseudo defense of "God did it" when it can't adequately prove the foundations of some it's shoddy theology.
For most organized religions, 'Ignorance is bliss' is the basis by which they manage to survive. The ability to exploit the trait of many to be in need of guidance, to be followers instead of a leaders, this is where Religion is truly in it's environment.

[Jana]

A big difference between the two is that Science welcomes challenge and skepticism. It is only through the constant testing and experimentation in hopes of disproving a theory that it can in become a fact. Religion, on the other hand is great at being an emotional crutch but beyond that, it draws the line against any real analysis, falling back onto the pseudo defense of "God did it" when it can't adequately prove the foundations of some it's shoddy theology.
For most organized religions, 'Ignorance is bliss' is the basis by which they manage to survive. The ability to exploit the trait of many to be in need of guidance, to be followers instead of a leaders, this is where is Religion is truly in it's environment.

I always said I never had any doubts and I felt I was in a more intellectual church, Presbyterian, where they took verses from the Bible but the bulk of the sermon was how it applied to actual present day life versus the way I was raised in Southern Baptist where they stayed in the Bible. But in adulthood, when I sat down and attempted to read through the whole Bible again, it defies logic. Plus, how could God let all these children in the world suffer torture, starvation, rape, on and on. I didn't disbelieve anymore, but I was much more questioning and still am. But there was a man who had a ministry in Atlanta, who would go to different churches and speak in Sunday School classes, and who gave a once a week class on the Bible. He had his Ph.D. from Oxford University in Theology, and all faiths were invited. It was in a lecture hall. I really enjoyed him because he would take a book of the Bible and do a series of lectures on it and show how it applied to life and break the verses down to where some didn't seem so incredulous.

[Sarah]

How does a faith that beleives in peaceful existance, obeying the laws of the land, and helping others hurt anyone?

If religion was just that, I don't think many people would be against it. Unfortunately, almost all the people ~in charge~ in this world put so many further restrictions into law based on their personal beliefs and religious tradition, laws that don't help others or foster a peaceful existence...


Jana: I also wonder how people can insist that God loves everyone when there are children who die of cancer, or are molested and abused... what have those children done? =/

[Jana]

How does a faith that beleives in peaceful existance, obeying the laws of the land, and helping others hurt anyone?

If religion was just that, I don't think many people would be against it. Unfortunately, almost all the people ~in charge~ in this world put so many further restrictions into law based on their personal beliefs and religious tradition, laws that don't help others or foster a peaceful existence...


Jana: I also wonder how people can insist that God loves everyone when there are children who die of cancer, or are molested and abused... what have those children done? =/

I don't know. And people that say God answered their prayers, but, yet, what, he didn't answer the prayers of the girl who was held captive and raped by her father for years, fathering his children, and living in a basement locked away? And I saw a woman on Oprah say God answered her prayers and saved her husband in the Twin Towers, but, what, all those other pour souls that were praying and their families were praying, God decided to ignore? It's all too confusing.


My minister from my old church, when I used to go, once said you never pray to ask for something, telling God what you want. You pray to ask for guidance and for strength in handling situationsl.

[Michigan Girl]

Because god gave us free will ...we choose our own paths, including killers and Lucifer!!
We go to god in prayer for strength and guidance and to, hopefully, choose the right
path ...I agree w/ Jana's minister!!

[gr8dane]

Because god gave us free will ...we choose our own paths, including killers and Lucifer!!
We go to god in prayer for strength and guidance and to, hopefully, choose the right
path ...I agree w/ Jana's minister!!

Why don't you just replace god with your own name.

[AlteredDNA]

Because god gave us free will ...we choose our own paths, including killers and Lucifer!!
We go to god in prayer for strength and guidance and to, hopefully, choose the right
path ...I agree w/ Jana's minister!!

As well as this:

The Drowning Man

A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help. Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, “Jump in, I can save you.” The stranded fellow shouted back, “No, it’s OK, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me.”

So the rowboat went on.

Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.” To this the stranded man said, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”

So the motorboat went on.

Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, “Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety.” To this the stranded man again replied, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”

So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, “I had faith in you but you didn’t save me, you let me drown. I don’t understand why!”

To this God replied, “I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?”

[S2M]

Because god gave us free will ...we choose our own paths, including killers and Lucifer!!
We go to god in prayer for strength and guidance and to, hopefully, choose the right
path ...I agree w/ Jana's minister!!

The 'god gave us free will' defense is an excuse that frees religious types from answering the hardball questions that they CAN'T answer....

[artist4perry]

Wow.......... I am sorry sherrie, but because some nut jobs killed in the past in the name of God, the dog Son of sam, or whatever they use to justify killing does not make all religious faith lumped into one catagory. How does a faith that beleives in peaceful existance, obeying the laws of the land, and helping others hurt anyone? Show me this please.

I didn't say everybody who was religious was a killer and I didn't say people who believe peaceful existance, obeying the laws of the land, were hurting others. You're trying to personalize my general comments and if you take it personally that's on you not me.

For this I have been told I should be stopped, punished, eradicated and called a fool who believes in fairy tales. I draw whimsy and fantasy. I know this is part of my imagination. But why do we have imagination?

Drama much? Who said anything about eradicating you or anybody else? It's historically been the christians and muslems trying to eradicate any belief other than their own. I'm not trying to convince anybody to abandon their beliefs, I'm just trying to get reliosoes to quit trying to impose their beliefs on me by influencing the societal and cultural mores in the country where I live and have a right to the same freedom of religious choice as they do. But with me it's not actually a matter of choice because I can't force or fool myself into believing what my mind won't accept as realistically possible.

I have tons of questions on the origins of life, I question how nature works all the time. I study bone structures, muscles, and closely document in drawings the very miniscule features of everything I see. I have questions about theories of science, and study them often. What is the use of our existence if we are just to live, and to die, and become the dirt. We are nothing but future dust to be blown about with no hope or use. I question things of this nature all the time. You see, I love to learn things every day.

I have questions too and nothing in the bible answers them satisfactorily. Science, if not answering every question, at least gives me facts that I can believe. I may not like reality, but I can't dupe myself into living in a fantasy to keep from facing it.

But to call me a fool because I question things, develope a theory of my own, and live to try and not do harm while on the earth makes no sense to me. You develope a theory, beleive in it, live your life to do no harm while here and yet you cannot prove your theory either. Yet if I think differently I am to be bashed, made fun of, reprimanded like a stupid child. Why is that?

I don't think I used the word "fool" in my post. I said you're gullible. To me that means somebody who is easily convinced of irrational things and to me all religiosoes are just that where their religion is concerned. That includes many people who I love very much so it's not meant as an insult, just a statement of fact. Maybe you wouldn't buy snake oil from a huckster but from my point of view you buy the impossible from another form of huckster.

I also never "reprimanded" you or anybody else. You sure are taking on a lot of angst over this. Chill it's just a discussion not a heresy trial or inquisition.

Sherrie, yes someone did say that hitler had the right idea and we should be stopped. Read earlier. I was not just addressing your writings on this but the writings of many who said the words fool, fantasy, etc. You said gullable. Maybe I feel it is gullable to beleive that even though science states as a law that matter must come from something. Yet the whole idea of where life comes from claims that life comes from.................nothing. It just was. It just poof magically came about. I don't care if you believe, don't believe like or dislike religion. And I do not impose my religion on you or anyone else here. All I have asked is the right to believe in my delusions as it were. I am not upset as I said, so the chill isn't necessary.........though here in Arkansas it would be quite cooling! I am just sharing thoughts. I let you tell me what you think without calling you names or putting your thoughts down. Buying from a snake oil salesman or huckster as it were. Believing in god makes one gullible. This is not flattering. I argue that you can no more prove that Big bang theory than I can prove God. Each has the right to believe as it were as they wish. The day someone states, and no this was not you, that religion should be stopped by force if necessary, that becomes a threat. I don't have a problem by not teaching religion in school. I teach art, it is not part of the curriculum. Again, I don't believe in forcing religion any more than I want someone forcing me to stop believing. I am giving the opposing point of view. That about sums it up.

[S2M]

How does a faith that beleives in peaceful existance, obeying the laws of the land, and helping others hurt anyone?

If religion was just that, I don't think many people would be against it. Unfortunately, almost all the people ~in charge~ in this world put so many further restrictions into law based on their personal beliefs and religious tradition, laws that don't help others or foster a peaceful existence...


Jana: I also wonder how people can insist that God loves everyone when there are children who die of cancer, or are molested and abused... what have those children done? =/

I don't know. And people that say God answered their prayers, but, yet, what, he didn't answer the prayers of the girl who was held captive and raped by her father for years, fathering his children, and living in a basement locked away? And I saw a woman on Oprah say God answered her prayers and saved her husband in the Twin Towers, but, what, all those other pour souls that were praying and their families were praying, God decided to ignore? It's all too confusing.


My minister from my old church, when I used to go, once said you never pray to ask for something, telling God what you want. You pray to ask for guidance and for strength in handling situationsl.

Isn't 'guidance' a thing...a something? lol

[StevePerryHair]

Because god gave us free will ...we choose our own paths, including killers and Lucifer!!
We go to god in prayer for strength and guidance and to, hopefully, choose the right
path ...I agree w/ Jana's minister!!

The 'god gave us free will' defense is an excuse that frees religious types from answering the hardball questions that they CAN'T answer....

You are Irish, right? So I'm guessing you have some Catholicism in your family tree? How do you know your morality wasn't learned, based on what each generation in your family passed on...based on what they learned. So therefore your morality very well MAY have come from what you learned from religion and God and you don't even know it

[artist4perry]

Because god gave us free will ...we choose our own paths, including killers and Lucifer!!
We go to god in prayer for strength and guidance and to, hopefully, choose the right
path ...I agree w/ Jana's minister!!

The 'god gave us free will' defense is an excuse that frees religious types from answering the hardball questions that they CAN'T answer....

God gives us free will is not a "defense" as you state it. Free will to me only means we can choose to believe in him and his teachings or not. A person who believes in free will...........and I do........is only stating I am not predestined to go to heaven. I am not part of an elect that God chooses weather they are good or bad. Some religions feel you can have no bearing on being Chosen. Free will means you believe you choose to serve God or not. Simple. I don't use it to answer anything. Except for what that means. Where is this defense thing your talking about?

Just as you have free will to vote Democrat or Republican. No one forces you to choose one way or another.

[Michigan Girl]

Because god gave us free will ...we choose our own paths, including killers and Lucifer!!
We go to god in prayer for strength and guidance and to, hopefully, choose the right
path ...I agree w/ Jana's minister!!

The 'god gave us free will' defense is an excuse that frees religious types from answering the hardball questions that they CAN'T answer....

Good Point ... perhaps he should have more control over us, sort of like Stepford World then your team could win every time and so can mine!!
I don't have the answers, fool, I'm just a sheep, one who believes in God!!
I'm not saying you have to believe ...in fact, your being an ass is more acceptable to me
if you don't!!
See that ^^^^^is free will!!

[artist4perry]

Because god gave us free will ...we choose our own paths, including killers and Lucifer!!
We go to god in prayer for strength and guidance and to, hopefully, choose the right
path ...I agree w/ Jana's minister!!

The 'god gave us free will' defense is an excuse that frees religious types from answering the hardball questions that they CAN'T answer....

Good Point ... perhaps he should have more control over us, sort of like Stepford World then your team could win every time and so can mine!!
I don't have the answers, fool, I'm just a sheep, one who believes in God!!
I'm not saying you have to believe ...in fact, your being an ass is more acceptable to me
if you don't!!
See that ^^^^^is free will!! :wink:

Priceless..........ROTFLMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Argh my sides! Folks I have argued for the sake of debate, but I think it is still ones choice to believe either theory and your still O.K. in my book. Except for that dude or dudette who said Hitler had it right.......... Take that Goose stepping somewhere else please!

And Sherrie and S2M............you are hereby forced by the state to attend no less than Three Journey concerts a year. Can I get an Amen? Hallelujah brothers and sisters put your hand on the speakers and let the music move your soals! OW!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzlpTRNIAvc
Tell us brother James Brown..........I feel good..............duna dunna dunna duh.........I knew that I would now!

[artist4perry]

Because god gave us free will ...we choose our own paths, including killers and Lucifer!!
We go to god in prayer for strength and guidance and to, hopefully, choose the right
path ...I agree w/ Jana's minister!!

Why don't you just replace god with your own name.

Because Michigan Girl takes to long to say during grace?

[Michigan Girl]

Because god gave us free will ...we choose our own paths, including killers and Lucifer!!
We go to god in prayer for strength and guidance and to, hopefully, choose the right
path ...I agree w/ Jana's minister!!

Why don't you just replace god with your own name.

This is a great question ...I feel compelled to recite a commandment,
but that isn't the answer ...anyone?!?! :wink:

[Sarah]

Because god gave us free will ...we choose our own paths, including killers and Lucifer!!
We go to god in prayer for strength and guidance and to, hopefully, choose the right
path ...I agree w/ Jana's minister!!

Then I hope that God rewards those kids who had to endure being killed or molested, rewards them enough to make up for the horrible life they never deserved. If life is a gift from God, it's not much of a gift for those kids. IMO, it's not very loving for God to let innocent/defenseless children be killed or abused. I thought if you were good, you were rewarded not only in the afterlife but in this life, but some kids barely have a chance to try.

It also doesn't explain why God lets children get cancer and die before having a chance.

I prefer not to shrug and accept those kinds of things as part of God's plan.

[Michigan Girl]

Because god gave us free will ...we choose our own paths, including killers and Lucifer!!
We go to god in prayer for strength and guidance and to, hopefully, choose the right
path ...I agree w/ Jana's minister!!

Then I hope that God rewards those kids who had to endure being killed or molested, rewards them enough to make up for the horrible life they never deserved. If life is a gift from God, it's not much of a gift for those kids. IMO, it's not very loving for God to let innocent/defenseless children be killed or abused. I thought if you were good, you were rewarded not only in the afterlife but in this life, but some kids barely have a chance to try.

It also doesn't explain why God lets children get cancer and die before having a chance.

I prefer not to shrug and accept those kinds of things as part of God's plan.

Anyone who tells you they have the answer for that ^^^^is lying ...