Should the Mosque at Ground Zero be allowed

[Rip Rokken]

It's foolishness for sure, but like I said before, I wonder if there's not some strategery going on here. Maybe they think if they have a mosque nearby reduces the chance of another major terrorist hit on that area. Still, death to them all I says.

[RossValoryRocks]

It is absolutely within their rights to build on the site if the want to...the government has no right to tell them no...PERIOD. If we are a nation of laws then those have to apply equally to all people in all situations.

Now if you want to debate if it is smart for them to do so, that's fair game...and my opinion is that it is not smart to build there. It will do NOTHING to promote a reconcilliation between people...just the opposite.

Stu. this a absoutley wrong. Did you see my post on the Obama thread regarding this? I showed just 4 or 5 examples out of tons you can find on google where Churches have been denied the right to build on their own property. The Courts have verified as much. Just this month a Mosque was denied a permit to build on a particular plot of land in Florence, Ky. They re-filed and moved the mosque location and then were given permission. The local Zoning boards and Commissioners et al have been given the right to decide what is built in thier community across this Country. It happens every day. Fuck, a local McD's franchisee wanted to buy a vacant piece of loooong abandoned property in my Community. Nearly everyone I know thought it was great, the local Council said no. It's still an abandoned piece of urban blight.

I am right...the government is WRONG to deny a church/mosque/synagogue/sweat lodge the right to build...they are NOT following the Constitution and they should be called on it. A McDonald's isn't the same as a church...you cannot compare the two...one is a financial enterprise engaged in business and in it to make money the other is a place to get a burger... Sorry I couldn't resist.

[RossValoryRocks]

You mean a course in YOUR version of history, right? Religion is not under attack, that's just chum for the religous zealots who WANT to believe that and to have something to bitch about. They'd better be careful because if they continue to try to take the rights of others away, their rights aren't far behind and that's been proven throughout history.

You already proven your grasp of history is sadly lacking...now you are compounding the error...religion of all types has been under attack in this country for decades by people JUST LIKE YOU...People who think freedom OF religion actually means freedom FROM religion and that in some weird way the founders of this country meant it to be that way.

You do know that early in the history of this country that the Capitol building in DC was used as a CHURCH on Sundays right? And that Jefferson, who was President at the time, had a specific seat there held for him and never missed a service? You know, the same Jefferson who wrote we "are all endowed by our CREATOR" and made mention of a separation of Church and State...but to protect the CHURCH from being run by the State not the other way around...of course not...in your "version" of History those facts aren't actually there.

[Rip Rokken]

A McDonald's isn't the same as a church...you cannot compare the two...one is a financial enterprise engaged in business and in it to make money the other is a place to get a burger... Sorry I couldn't resist.

LOL, these days there's really not much difference. McMegachurches specialize in soft-serve, fast food religion. Billions and Billions served!

[The_Noble_Cause]

You do know that early in the history of this country that the Capitol building in DC was used as a CHURCH on Sundays right? And that Jefferson, who was President at the time, had a specific seat there held for him and never missed a service? You know, the same Jefferson who wrote we "are all endowed by our CREATOR" and made mention of a separation of Church and State...but to protect the CHURCH from being run by the State not the other way around...of course not...in your "version" of History those facts aren't actually there.

All true, but let's not forget the famous Jefferson bible, in which all references to miracles were removed by Jefferson. He also made sure his university had no campus chapel - a first of its kind - and the teaching of theology was banned.

[RossValoryRocks]

You do know that early in the history of this country that the Capitol building in DC was used as a CHURCH on Sundays right? And that Jefferson, who was President at the time, had a specific seat there held for him and never missed a service? You know, the same Jefferson who wrote we "are all endowed by our CREATOR" and made mention of a separation of Church and State...but to protect the CHURCH from being run by the State not the other way around...of course not...in your "version" of History those facts aren't actually there.

All true, but let's not forget the famous Jefferson bible, in which all references to miracles were removed by Jefferson. He also made sure his university had no campus chapel - a first of its kind - and the teaching of theology was banned.

If you take religion out of the schools who do the students send prayers to at finals time?

Yes Jefferson did that...because if you read his writings...he felt everyone should come to God on their own terms...NOT have it forced upon them, especially not in an educational setting where religious views may change depending on who is teaching them, because he thought, and rightly so, that is was a person decision.

At least add the reason why he did it, TNC, not make it look like Jefferson was anti-religion when he wasn't.

[artist4perry]

I GOT IT... PUT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS NEXT TO THE MOSQUE about the same height and width...
lets let the liberals trash the ten commandments and go pray in the mosque ( i mean community center.) ... HAHAHA....

So, this really is about your religion being better than theirs.

It's not "One Nation Under God" just for shits and giggles or a . There's a history to this fight you know?

America was founded on freedom of religion, and the choice for every person to believe as they wished. You limit one religious groups right then you limit them all. That's what America is about.

You aren't paying attention. Religious freedoms have been under assualt in this Country for the last 40 plus years. All kinds. This is no different if you want to be fair. Which you probably do not.

Please explain before I say something unfair. LOL I need examples of how religion has been under attack.

You need a course in history.

You mean a course in YOUR version of history, right? Religion is not under attack, that's just chum for the religous zealots who WANT to believe that and to have something to bitch about. They'd better be careful because if they continue to try to take the rights of others away, their rights aren't far behind and that's been proven throughout history.

Bobby Honey, religion is under attack. The right to have monuments with crosses has been fought in more courts than I can remember. And Lets not forget the LA seal having three crosses on it representing the churches that helped found the city were removed because someone was "offended" by three tiny crosses the size of a 1/4 of an inch tall, among many images. The cross in the desert that was covered up, torn down, rebuilt, covered up and still under fire by anti religous people who think their head would explode at the sight of a cross. It is out in the middle of a desert for crying out loud! Hardly any traffic goes by and it was errected for War Vets.

I am not against the rights of muslims. I just think it is a poor location for the victims of 9/11 to have to look at so close to where they lost their loved ones. I have a friend who is a peaceful muslim. I love her so much. She is a gentle soul. I have no problem with her faith, because she wants peace. As I said. It is not about their religion it is about their location choice. Why csan they not build it farther back? Why insist on that location if they know it hurts the victims?

[The_Noble_Cause]

You do know that early in the history of this country that the Capitol building in DC was used as a CHURCH on Sundays right? And that Jefferson, who was President at the time, had a specific seat there held for him and never missed a service? You know, the same Jefferson who wrote we "are all endowed by our CREATOR" and made mention of a separation of Church and State...but to protect the CHURCH from being run by the State not the other way around...of course not...in your "version" of History those facts aren't actually there.

All true, but let's not forget the famous Jefferson bible, in which all references to miracles were removed by Jefferson. He also made sure his university had no campus chapel - a first of its kind - and the teaching of theology was banned.

If you take religion out of the schools who do the students send prayers to at finals time?

Yes Jefferson did that...because if you read his writings...he felt everyone should come to God on their own terms...NOT have it forced upon them, especially not in an educational setting where religious views may change depending on who is teaching them, because he thought, and rightly so, that is was a person decision.

At least add the reason why he did it, TNC, not make it look like Jefferson was anti-religion when he wasn't.

Didn't mean to imply that Jefferson was anti-religious. I have said before that all of the Founders (with the exception of that "dirty atheist" Paine) were religious men. I would say that Jefferson was prolly the most deist of them all, and guided more by the Enlightenment than scripture.

[RossValoryRocks]

You do know that early in the history of this country that the Capitol building in DC was used as a CHURCH on Sundays right? And that Jefferson, who was President at the time, had a specific seat there held for him and never missed a service? You know, the same Jefferson who wrote we "are all endowed by our CREATOR" and made mention of a separation of Church and State...but to protect the CHURCH from being run by the State not the other way around...of course not...in your "version" of History those facts aren't actually there.

All true, but let's not forget the famous Jefferson bible, in which all references to miracles were removed by Jefferson. He also made sure his university had no campus chapel - a first of its kind - and the teaching of theology was banned.

If you take religion out of the schools who do the students send prayers to at finals time?

Yes Jefferson did that...because if you read his writings...he felt everyone should come to God on their own terms...NOT have it forced upon them, especially not in an educational setting where religious views may change depending on who is teaching them, because he thought, and rightly so, that is was a person decision.

At least add the reason why he did it, TNC, not make it look like Jefferson was anti-religion when he wasn't.

Didn't mean to imply that Jefferson was anti-religious. I have said before that all of the Founders (with the exception of that "dirty atheist" Paine) were religious men.

Paine wasn't an atheist...a really really hard to please deist...but not an atheist...yes I know he wrote atheist leaning stuff...he wrote lots of deist leaning stuff too...for example:

"How different is [Christianity] to the pure and simple profession of Deism! The true Deist has but one Deity, and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him in everything moral, scientifical, and mechanical."

[The_Noble_Cause]

Paine wasn't an atheist...a really really hard to please deist...but not an atheist...yes I know he wrote atheist leaning stuff...he wrote lots of deist leaning stuff too...for example:

"How different is [Christianity] to the pure and simple profession of Deism! The true Deist has but one Deity, and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him in everything moral, scientifical, and mechanical."

"Dirty atheist" was the nick-name he earned for his screeds against Christianity and the bible. Not my terminology (hence the quotes). Paine was a heterodox thinker and likely would've been branded a "secular progressive" today - regardless of his belief in God. Definitely the most frwd thinking of the Founders.

[BobbyinTN]

You mean a course in YOUR version of history, right? Religion is not under attack, that's just chum for the religous zealots who WANT to believe that and to have something to bitch about. They'd better be careful because if they continue to try to take the rights of others away, their rights aren't far behind and that's been proven throughout history.

You already proven your grasp of history is sadly lacking...now you are compounding the error...religion of all types has been under attack in this country for decades by people JUST LIKE YOU...People who think freedom OF religion actually means freedom FROM religion and that in some weird way the founders of this country meant it to be that way.

You do know that early in the history of this country that the Capitol building in DC was used as a CHURCH on Sundays right? And that Jefferson, who was President at the time, had a specific seat there held for him and never missed a service? You know, the same Jefferson who wrote we "are all endowed by our CREATOR" and made mention of a separation of Church and State...but to protect the CHURCH from being run by the State not the other way around...of course not...in your "version" of History those facts aren't actually there.

If only it were as black and white as you'd like it to be. The leaders of the country knew the people needed to be lead and God needed to be feared. They simply continued a long line of rule based on the peons not being educated and believing everything they were told. What kind of revisionist history are you spouting exactly? Do you know why the Founding Fathers fled England? Do you have any grasp of what was going on over there to force them to come here? I don't think you do.

[BobbyinTN]

Benjamin Franklin

(1706-1790) American public official, writer, scientist, and printer who played a major part in the American Revolution

◦I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.
◦They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
◦The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle.
◦Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
John Adams
(1735-1826) Second President of the United States

◦I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
◦What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion’s Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years.
Thomas Jefferson
(1743-1826) The third President of the United States

◦Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
◦The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.
◦History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
◦In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purposes.
◦The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
James Madison

(1751-1836) The fourth President of the United States

◦The civil government … functions with complete success … by the total separation of the Church from the State.
◦Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect.
◦What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient allies.
◦During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.



Thomas Jefferson The third president of the United States was Thomas Jefferson. He had been the author of the Declaration of Independence and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. In an age of great men Jefferson was remarkable for his wide-ranging curiosity on many subjects. He helped the United States get started, and his plans for the future helped it grow. Many of the good things Americans enjoy today have come from Jefferson's devotion to human rights.
Jefferson is often called the founder of the Democratic party. Many other groups also claim to follow his principles. He developed the theory of states' rights, which was against giving much authority to the federal government. He is known to everyone as the author of the ringing statement in the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal, that among their inalienable rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. His writings have stood as a torch to the defenders of individual freedom, in spiritual as well as in worldly affairs. .
---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia Deluxe
Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
.


"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
- to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
.


"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
- "Notes on Virginia"
.


"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
- letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787
.


"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."
- to John Adams, 1803
.


"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
.


"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."
- to Carey, 1816
.


"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."
-in his private journal, Feb. 1800
.


"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." - to Carey, 1816
.


"The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore."
- to Story, Aug. 4, 1820
.


"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.
1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.
3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save."
- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822
.


"Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."

"Notes on Virginia"
.

"Creeds have been the bane of the Christian church ... made of Christendom a slaughter-house."
- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822
.


"Let us, then, fellow citizens, unite with one heart and one mind. Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and affection without which liberty and even life itself are but dreary things. And let us reflect that having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of a bitter and bloody persecutions."
.


"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
.


"It has been fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and then I considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."
.


"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation [birth] of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation [birth] of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
- to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823
.


"They [preachers] dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."
.


"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
.


"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ."
.


"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever."
-Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
.


"... I am not afraid of priests. They have tried upon me all their various batteries of pious whining, hypocritical canting, lying and slandering. I have contemplated their order from the Magi of the East to the Saints of the West and I have found no difference of character, but of more or less caution, in proportion to their information or ignorance on whom their interested duperies were to be played off. Their sway in New England is indeed formidable. No mind beyond mediocrity dares there to develop itself."
- letter to Horatio Spofford, 1816
.


"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
.


.
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."
-letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814
.

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot.... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
- to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
.


"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
-letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT
"The Complete Jefferson" by Saul K. Padover, pp 518-519

[stevew2]

Let um build it, some good ole boys will hope hopefully torch it right before it opens

[Angel]

Let um build it, some good ole boys will hope hopefully torch it right before it opens

Sounds like a job for you n' tator!!!


(PS, I'm only kidding, so no one get your panties in a wad!!)

[Clasicrockldy]

Of course I would if they startes some shit like the Mormons with Prop. 8. Mormons suck. LOL

I take offence to this! ^ I am Mormon...and I do have a brother-in-law who is gay. And even though my ward is 99.9999% for Prop 8...( I am the only one who doesn't support it).. I feel that no one should tell another who they can or can't marry. It is between the two people involved and their higher power... whomever it may be.

[stevew2]

Let um build it, some good ole boys will hope hopefully torch it right before it opens

Sounds like a job for you n' tator!!!


(PS, I'm only kidding, so no one get your panties in a wad!!)

Hell yea, we could take it out and make you airtight in 20 mintues and be drinkin miller light in some woods in New Jersey

[Monker]

It is absolutely within their rights to build on the site if the want to...the government has no right to tell them no...PERIOD. If we are a nation of laws then those have to apply equally to all people in all situations.

Now if you want to debate if it is smart for them to do so, that's fair game...and my opinion is that it is not smart to build there. It will do NOTHING to promote a reconcilliation between people...just the opposite.

Stu. this a absoutley wrong. Did you see my post on the Obama thread regarding this? I showed just 4 or 5 examples out of tons you can find on google where Churches have been denied the right to build on their own property. The Courts have verified as much. Just this month a Mosque was denied a permit to build on a particular plot of land in Florence, Ky. They re-filed and moved the mosque location and then were given permission. The local Zoning boards and Commissioners et al have been given the right to decide what is built in thier community across this Country. It happens every day. Fuck, a local McD's franchisee wanted to buy a vacant piece of loooong abandoned property in my Community. Nearly everyone I know thought it was great, the local Council said no. It's still an abandoned piece of urban blight.

What you are not showing is what type of structure is and is not allowed. Stuie's point is that it would be unconstitutional if zoning laws discriminated against religious structure. If you want to debate that point, you need to look up the specific zoning laws and how they define what can and can't be built....if it is zoned as business, residential, or something else...and if a church is considered business or residential, or something else.

[Monker]

Anyone else find it so freakin' funny how the same ones that BITCH AND WHINE about christians (not judging them as people, of course) are beating their chests about the rights of other religious people to practice their religion? It would really piss me off if it wasn't so hilarious. You people do things to divide people and bring wrath upon yourselves, and then you act like the victim when you're called out about it. Sound familiar, anyone...?

Not addressed to me specifically, but I would say the same thing if it were a church that people were whining about being built.

If he wanted to address this issue appropriately, perhaps BO should've told the muslims attending the Ramadan dinner (or whatever it was) that although it was within their legal right to build this MOSQUE in this site, in the interest of peace and sensitivity perhaps they should reconsider the location of it, as the loved ones of the victims of the 9/11 attack (and the majority of Americans) are opposed to the LOCATION, not the right to build it. Of course he isn't going to do that though, because that's not what he's about. If anybody still thinks this man is about uniting our country, I'm here to tell ya you're crazy.

No, that would be completely WRONG. In fact, I think his later clarification was an inappropriate statement. He swore an oath to uphold the Constitution...and his original words upheld that oath and he should have left it at that, or further emphasized his defense of the Constitution and that Republicans no longer have faith in it.

[Monker]

from what i understand, the st nicholas greek orthodox church that stood at 155 cedar street from 1922 until the day it was destroyed on 9/11 by the tower that stood 250 feet from it, has not been given permission to rebuild nor has it been offered another place to build on...why is this ok?

Seems to me that you know no details about WHY that hasn't happened...at least you didn't give any.

It sounds to me like it be so close that the land may be used for any potential memorial...and if it is, I would expect the land to be purchased and the church able to build somewhere else. If that is not the case, or something similar, then you are correct and this is wrong too.

[Monker]

I GOT IT... PUT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS NEXT TO THE MOSQUE about the same height and width...
lets let the liberals trash the ten commandments and go pray in the mosque ( i mean community center.) ... HAHAHA....

So, this really is about your religion being better than theirs.

It's not "One Nation Under God" just for shits and giggles or a . There's a history to this fight you know?

America was founded on freedom of religion, and the choice for every person to believe as they wished. You limit one religious groups right then you limit them all. That's what America is about.

You aren't paying attention. Religious freedoms have been under assualt in this Country for the last 40 plus years. All kinds. This is no different if you want to be fair. Which you probably do not.

The irony is that it is now the Republicans who want to limit religious freedoms. Funny how it matter for silly things like department stores saying "Merry Christmas"...but when it comes to the Constitution and a religion they don't care for, THEY want those freedoms to be limited.

[Monker]

It is absolutely within their rights to build on the site if the want to...the government has no right to tell them no...PERIOD. If we are a nation of laws then those have to apply equally to all people in all situations.

Now if you want to debate if it is smart for them to do so, that's fair game...and my opinion is that it is not smart to build there. It will do NOTHING to promote a reconcilliation between people...just the opposite.

Stu. this a absoutley wrong. Did you see my post on the Obama thread regarding this? I showed just 4 or 5 examples out of tons you can find on google where Churches have been denied the right to build on their own property. The Courts have verified as much. Just this month a Mosque was denied a permit to build on a particular plot of land in Florence, Ky. They re-filed and moved the mosque location and then were given permission. The local Zoning boards and Commissioners et al have been given the right to decide what is built in thier community across this Country. It happens every day. Fuck, a local McD's franchisee wanted to buy a vacant piece of loooong abandoned property in my Community. Nearly everyone I know thought it was great, the local Council said no. It's still an abandoned piece of urban blight.

I am right...the government is WRONG to deny a church/mosque/synagogue/sweat lodge the right to build...they are NOT following the Constitution and they should be called on it. A McDonald's isn't the same as a church...you cannot compare the two...one is a financial enterprise engaged in business and in it to make money the other is a place to get a burger... Sorry I couldn't resist.

But, Stuie, if a church is considered a 'business' for zoning purposes, then, yes, it IS zoned the same as the McD's. If it is considered a residence, then it zoned the same as your house. Are there any other options for zoning...and which IS a church zoned as? Those are the real questions...and I doubt either of you know the answer to any of them and should probably look it up if you want to continue the argument.

[steveo777]

Let um build it, some good ole boys will hope hopefully torch it right before it opens

Simple and right on the money. While they're at it, think it would be possible to throw Obama in there before they do the torching?

[stevew2]

Let um build it, some good ole boys will hope hopefully torch it right before it opens

Simple and right on the money. While they're at it, think it would be possible to throw Obama in there before they do the torching?

I agree with the first part fat ass,but I like Obama ,you queer fucker

[steveo777]

I used to like Obama, but he does some stupid shit.

[stevew2]

I used to like Obama, but he does some stupid shit.

They all do stupid shit, I would not want to be president at all

[conversationpc]

Benjamin Franklin

(1706-1790) American public official, writer, scientist, and printer who played a major part in the American Revolution

◦I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.
◦They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
◦The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle.
◦Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
John Adams
(1735-1826) Second President of the United States

◦I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
◦What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion’s Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years.
Thomas Jefferson
(1743-1826) The third President of the United States...

There are tons more quotes out there that support the other side of the argument as well. Many of them on both sides of this argument are taken completely out of context. Also, with Benjamin Franklin for instance...Later in life, he became good friends with a Christian evangelist and changed his views on organized religion.

That being said, you have to also look at what they DID along with what they SAID. While the federal government never established an official religion and was prohibited by the Constitution from doing so, many of the state governments at the time did have official connections with religions.

[Rip Rokken]

There are tons more quotes out there that support the other side of the argument as well. Many of them on both sides of this argument are taken completely out of context. Also, with Benjamin Franklin for instance...Later in life, he became good friends with a Christian evangelist and changed his views on organized religion.

These days organized religion is a very viable business opportunity -- it may even be recession-proof. You don't have to live modestly like they used to. Target the emerging upper-income developments and plant a multi-million dollar "ministry tool" megachurch right in the middle. The preachers make enough these days to live amongst the flock and retire early. The key to success is to attract people with all the physical comforts and conveniences (and man, do these places compete to see who can offer the most), then keep them with light, inspirational teaching that's none to heavy on all that negative stuff that makes you feel kinda bad. After about 15-20 years, get inspired by the Spirit to build another multi-million dollar "ministry tool" in the heart of the next hot developing area of town, then hit up the flock to pay for it. Nobody's following the Spirit in these places -- they're just following the rich. I don't believe there was any precedent in the New Testament for believers to make a professional living in the ministry. They all had their own careers. Nobody seems to pay much attention to example of Jesus whipping the money changers in the temple anymore.

[AlteredDNA]

Proposed Mosque location - for reference

[Rip Rokken]

Proposed Mosque location - for reference

[BobbyinTN]

I GOT IT... PUT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS NEXT TO THE MOSQUE about the same height and width...
lets let the liberals trash the ten commandments and go pray in the mosque ( i mean community center.) ... HAHAHA....

So, this really is about your religion being better than theirs.

It's not "One Nation Under God" just for shits and giggles or a . There's a history to this fight you know?

America was founded on freedom of religion, and the choice for every person to believe as they wished. You limit one religious groups right then you limit them all. That's what America is about.

You aren't paying attention. Religious freedoms have been under assualt in this Country for the last 40 plus years. All kinds. This is no different if you want to be fair. Which you probably do not.

The irony is that it is now the Republicans who want to limit religious freedoms. Funny how it matter for silly things like department stores saying "Merry Christmas"...but when it comes to the Constitution and a religion they don't care for, THEY want those freedoms to be limited.

Exactly. Hypocrisy at its best.