Should the Mosque at Ground Zero be allowed

[BobbyinTN]

There are tons more quotes out there that support the other side of the argument as well. Many of them on both sides of this argument are taken completely out of context. Also, with Benjamin Franklin for instance...Later in life, he became good friends with a Christian evangelist and changed his views on organized religion.

These days organized religion is a very viable business opportunity -- it may even be recession-proof. You don't have to live modestly like they used to. Target the emerging upper-income developments and plant a multi-million dollar "ministry tool" megachurch right in the middle. The preachers make enough these days to live amongst the flock and retire early. The key to success is to attract people with all the physical comforts and conveniences (and man, do these places compete to see who can offer the most), then keep them with light, inspirational teaching that's none to heavy on all that negative stuff that makes you feel kinda bad. After about 15-20 years, get inspired by the Spirit to build another multi-million dollar "ministry tool" in the heart of the next hot developing area of town, then hit up the flock to pay for it. Nobody's following the Spirit in these places -- they're just following the rich. I don't believe there was any precedent in the New Testament for believers to make a professional living in the ministry. They all had their own careers. Nobody seems to pay much attention to example of Jesus whipping the money changers in the temple anymore.

A most excellent point. People will tell you that Jesus got angry and reacted violently things, but they never seem to tell you what he got angry about, which was the "money changers" taking advantage of the regular folk coming to temple. How many televangelists and fake prechers do that these days?

[conversationpc]

A most excellent point. People will tell you that Jesus got angry and reacted violently things, but they never seem to tell you what he got angry about, which was the "money changers" taking advantage of the regular folk coming to temple. How many televangelists and fake prechers do that these days?

Most of the televangelists do that, in my opinion.

[MCC620]

from what i understand, the st nicholas greek orthodox church that stood at 155 cedar street from 1922 until the day it was destroyed on 9/11 by the tower that stood 250 feet from it, has not been given permission to rebuild nor has it been offered another place to build on...why is this ok?

Seems to me that you know no details about WHY that hasn't happened...at least you didn't give any.

It sounds to me like it be so close that the land may be used for any potential memorial...and if it is, I would expect the land to be purchased and the church able to build somewhere else. If that is not the case, or something similar, then you are correct and this is wrong too.

it appears from the church's website http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/ (no updates since 2008), that the church is suffering from the same hold ups as the rest of the rebuilding effort. but now the mosque is bringing the church's issue to light again.
http://indyposted.com/38342/greek-ortho ... t-rebuilt/ it should take precedence since it was destroyed as a result of the attack on 9/11. families and friends and many new yorkers feel that mayor bloomberg should put his commitment behind rebuilding the trade center area first. after all there are 7 existing mosques right on the island of manhattan. so no one is being denied their freedom to worship.

[BobbyinTN]

Benjamin Franklin

(1706-1790) American public official, writer, scientist, and printer who played a major part in the American Revolution

◦I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.
◦They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
◦The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle.
◦Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
John Adams
(1735-1826) Second President of the United States

◦I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
◦What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion’s Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years.
Thomas Jefferson
(1743-1826) The third President of the United States...

There are tons more quotes out there that support the other side of the argument as well. Many of them on both sides of this argument are taken completely out of context. Also, with Benjamin Franklin for instance...Later in life, he became good friends with a Christian evangelist and changed his views on organized religion.

That being said, you have to also look at what they DID along with what they SAID. While the federal government never established an official religion and was prohibited by the Constitution from doing so, many of the state governments at the time did have official connections with religions.

I think what you have to pay attention to is what these men, the Founding Fathers, did and said and wrote in private. They all had their public persona, but the majority of them were deists and some of them even atheists. They wanted the public, the “little people” to believe in church and God and to keep the peace. They thought of themselves as the “elite” and above any kind of act like praying, etc.

And this should say it all:




The agreement's 11th article (out of twelve) reads: As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

[conversationpc]

I don't believe there was any precedent in the New Testament for believers to make a professional living in the ministry. They all had their own careers.

Early on, they certainly did but that doesn't mean it's wrong to devote yourself full time to a ministry. I know very few pastors who would be able to make any kind of a living at all if they had to hold a profession outside their ministry. The believers in the Bible who headed up churches had their own unique set of circumstances to deal with and, that being said, there's no prohibition against it in the Bible, either.

Nobody seems to pay much attention to example of Jesus whipping the money changers in the temple anymore.

I think most Christians think any display of public anger is wrong. Jesus did it on more than one occasion and, in this case, it was somewhat violent anger in the temple against those who were supposed to be doing God's business. Anyway, today's money changers are the aforementioned televangelists (not all of them, but most) and those commercializing the church for sure.

[BobbyinTN]

A most excellent point. People will tell you that Jesus got angry and reacted violently things, but they never seem to tell you what he got angry about, which was the "money changers" taking advantage of the regular folk coming to temple. How many televangelists and fake prechers do that these days?

Most of the televangelists do that, in my opinion.

I agree. Did you know there's a passage in the Bible where Jesus tells people not to pray in public? It was considered boastful and He didn't like it.

[conversationpc]

I think what you have to pay attention to is what these men, the Founding Fathers, did and said and wrote in private. They all had their public persona, but the majority of them were deists and some of them even atheists. They wanted the public, the “little people” to believe in church and God and to keep the peace. They thought of themselves as the “elite” and above any kind of act like praying, etc.

And this should say it all:

The agreement's 11th article (out of twelve) reads: As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

No, the last quote doesn't say it all... God and Government

[BobbyinTN]

I think what you have to pay attention to is what these men, the Founding Fathers, did and said and wrote in private. They all had their public persona, but the majority of them were deists and some of them even atheists. They wanted the public, the “little people” to believe in church and God and to keep the peace. They thought of themselves as the “elite” and above any kind of act like praying, etc.

And this should say it all:

The agreement's 11th article (out of twelve) reads: As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

No, the last quote doesn't say it all... God and Government

But why in this world would anyone think God favors one nation over another? That just doesn't make sense to me. It's like those asshole football players who think that praying is gonna help them win a game. It's just amazingly naive and borders on stupid to think that God is taking sides. That's putting too many human qualities on God and making Him in our image, instead of vice versa.

[conversationpc]

Did you know there's a passage in the Bible where Jesus tells people not to pray in public? It was considered boastful and He didn't like it.

Well, that's not quite the whole story, though...You're talking about this passage in the book of Matthew:

Mat 6:5-6 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. (6) But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

However, if Jesus literally meant to always pray only in private then that would make him a hypocrite. He often prayed in public both with his disciples present and others. His disciples, who carried on the faith and started Christianity after him prayed in public. It's also interesting to note that right after the above-quoted passage, Jesus himself then prays in public, teaching them the Lord's prayer.

[conversationpc]

But why in this world would anyone think God favors one nation over another? That just doesn't make sense to me.

You don't think God favors one nation over another? The Bible says God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble. That applies to nations as well as individual people, in my opinion.

It's like those asshole football players who think that praying is gonna help them win a game. It's just amazingly naive and borders on stupid to think that God is taking sides. That's putting too many human qualities on God and making Him in our image, instead of vice versa.

First off, please note that you're judging people again, something you said you don't do. Secondly, I don't know many, or any for that matter, who think God takes sides in a simple game. The prayer is not for victory. The flag football league my daughter plays in, for instance, starts with a prayer at the beginning of the game, not for victory but for safety and to give Him thanks.

[lights1961]

I GOT IT... PUT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS NEXT TO THE MOSQUE about the same height and width...
lets let the liberals trash the ten commandments and go pray in the mosque ( i mean community center.) ... HAHAHA....

So, this really is about your religion being better than theirs.

actually look at the fuss you all (liberals) put up about putting the tablets in a federal court house, school houses,etc...NOT TO BE ABLE TO put up the ten commandments... and for that matter not even celebrating christmas in the schools... because WE might offend the one person who doesnt believe... but want to build a mosque right in the heart of where the terrorist attacked WHERE ALL AMERICANS have been effected... no problem...

see my point...

[conversationpc]

I GOT IT... PUT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS NEXT TO THE MOSQUE about the same height and width...
lets let the liberals trash the ten commandments and go pray in the mosque ( i mean community center.) ... HAHAHA....

So, this really is about your religion being better than theirs.

actually look at the fuss you all (liberals) put up about putting the tablets in a federal court house, school houses,etc...NOT TO BE ABLE TO put up the ten commandments... and for that matter not even celebrating christmas in the schools... because WE might offend the one person who doesnt believe... but want to build a mosque right in the heart of where the terrorist attacked WHERE ALL AMERICANS have been effected... no problem...

see my point...

We do not have the right to not be offended.

[lights1961]

I GOT IT... PUT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS NEXT TO THE MOSQUE about the same height and width...
lets let the liberals trash the ten commandments and go pray in the mosque ( i mean community center.) ... HAHAHA....

So, this really is about your religion being better than theirs.

actually look at the fuss you all (liberals) put up about putting the tablets in a federal court house, school houses,etc...NOT TO BE ABLE TO put up the ten commandments... and for that matter not even celebrating christmas in the schools... because WE might offend the one person who doesnt believe... but want to build a mosque right in the heart of where the terrorist attacked WHERE ALL AMERICANS have been effected... no problem...

see my point...

We do not have the right to not be offended.

that just is double talk!!!

[Monker]

Did you know there's a passage in the Bible where Jesus tells people not to pray in public? It was considered boastful and He didn't like it.

Well, that's not quite the whole story, though...You're talking about this passage in the book of Matthew:

Mat 6:5-6 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. (6) But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

However, if Jesus literally meant to always pray only in private then that would make him a hypocrite. He often prayed in public both with his disciples present and others. His disciples, who carried on the faith and started Christianity after him prayed in public. It's also interesting to note that right after the above-quoted passage, Jesus himself then prays in public, teaching them the Lord's prayer.

What I read from that passage is that Jesus is saying these people are praying to get the attention of others...and you should be praying to get the attention of God.

[conversationpc]

Did you know there's a passage in the Bible where Jesus tells people not to pray in public? It was considered boastful and He didn't like it.

Well, that's not quite the whole story, though...You're talking about this passage in the book of Matthew:

Mat 6:5-6 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. (6) But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

However, if Jesus literally meant to always pray only in private then that would make him a hypocrite. He often prayed in public both with his disciples present and others. His disciples, who carried on the faith and started Christianity after him prayed in public. It's also interesting to note that right after the above-quoted passage, Jesus himself then prays in public, teaching them the Lord's prayer.

What I read from that passage is that Jesus is saying these people are praying to get the attention of others...and you should be praying to get the attention of God.

Exactly.

[ohsherrie]

I don’t know whether to call it irony or hypocrisy, probably both, but consider this. George Bush lied us into a war in Iraq but even after it was known that their were no WMDs there and that Saddam Hussein wasn’t training terrorists the war mongering rethugs still tried to validate the war by calling it “Operation Iraqi Freedom”. They justified it by saying we were freeing all of those poor downtrodden Iraqis from the evil despot Saddam Hussein. We needed to free them so that they could become a Democracy and enjoy the same freedoms that we do.

What are those poor downtrodden Iraqis? They’re muslims. Yes folks, sunni’s and shiites are muslims.

Now those same ironic hypocrites who avowed that those Iraqi muslims were worth killing 4,000 + American soldiers to free, don’t think American muslims should have the same freedoms in this country.

I can't say it surprises me though.

[AlteredDNA]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... 77179.html

There's a new argument emerging among supporters of the Ground Zero mosque. Distressed by President Obama's waffling on the issue, they're calling on former President George W. Bush to announce his support for the project, because in this case Bush understands better than Obama the connection between the war on terror and the larger question of America's relationship with Islam. It's an extraordinary change of position for commentators who long argued that Bush had done grievous harm to America's image in the Muslim world and that Obama represented a fresh start for the United States. Nevertheless, they are now seeing a different side of the former president.

"It's time for W. to weigh in," writes the New York Times' Maureen Dowd. Bush, Dowd explains, understands that "you can't have an effective war against the terrorists if it is a war on Islam." Dowd finds it "odd" that Obama seems less sure on that matter. But to set things back on the right course, she says, "W. needs to get his bullhorn back out" -- a reference to Bush's famous "the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon!" speech at Ground Zero on September 14, 2001.

Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson is also looking for an assist from Bush. "I…would love to hear from former President Bush on this issue," Robinson wrote Tuesday in a Post chat session. "He held Ramadan iftar dinners in the White House as part of a much broader effort to show that our fight against the al-Qaeda murderers who attacked us on 9/11 was not a crusade against Islam. He was absolutely right on this point, and it would be helpful to hear his views."

And Peter Beinart, a former editor of the New Republic, is also feeling some nostalgia for the former president. "Words I never thought I'd write: I pine for George W. Bush," Beinart wrote Tuesday in The Daily Beast. "Whatever his flaws, the man respected religion, all religion." Beinart longs for the days when Bush "used to say that the 'war on terror' was a struggle on behalf of Muslims, decent folks who wanted nothing more than to live free like you and me…"

For the moment, with Obama failing to live up to expectations, Bush-bashing is over. It's all a little amusing -- and perhaps a little maddening -- for some members of the Bush circle. When I asked Karl Rove to comment, he responded that it means "redemption is always available for liberals and time causes even the most stubborn of ideologues to revisit mistaken judgments." But won't these Bush critics shortly return to criticizing Bush? "This Bush swoon by selected members of the left commentariat is temporary," Rove answered. "Their swamp fevers will return momentarily."

Bush himself has declined to comment on the mosque affair.

[conversationpc]

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Mosque-supporters-beg-George-W-Bush-to-come-to-Obamas-rescue-100977179.html

There's a new argument emerging among supporters of the Ground Zero mosque. Distressed by President Obama's waffling on the issue, they're calling on former President George W. Bush to announce his support for the project, because in this case Bush understands better than Obama the connection between the war on terror and the larger question of America's relationship with Islam. It's an extraordinary change of position for commentators who long argued that Bush had done grievous harm to America's image in the Muslim world and that Obama represented a fresh start for the United States. Nevertheless, they are now seeing a different side of the former president.

"It's time for W. to weigh in," writes the New York Times' Maureen Dowd. Bush, Dowd explains, understands that "you can't have an effective war against the terrorists if it is a war on Islam." Dowd finds it "odd" that Obama seems less sure on that matter. But to set things back on the right course, she says, "W. needs to get his bullhorn back out" -- a reference to Bush's famous "the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon!" speech at Ground Zero on September 14, 2001.

Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson is also looking for an assist from Bush. "I…would love to hear from former President Bush on this issue," Robinson wrote Tuesday in a Post chat session. "He held Ramadan iftar dinners in the White House as part of a much broader effort to show that our fight against the al-Qaeda murderers who attacked us on 9/11 was not a crusade against Islam. He was absolutely right on this point, and it would be helpful to hear his views."

And Peter Beinart, a former editor of the New Republic, is also feeling some nostalgia for the former president. "Words I never thought I'd write: I pine for George W. Bush," Beinart wrote Tuesday in The Daily Beast. "Whatever his flaws, the man respected religion, all religion." Beinart longs for the days when Bush "used to say that the 'war on terror' was a struggle on behalf of Muslims, decent folks who wanted nothing more than to live free like you and me…"

For the moment, with Obama failing to live up to expectations, Bush-bashing is over. It's all a little amusing -- and perhaps a little maddening -- for some members of the Bush circle. When I asked Karl Rove to comment, he responded that it means "redemption is always available for liberals and time causes even the most stubborn of ideologues to revisit mistaken judgments." But won't these Bush critics shortly return to criticizing Bush? "This Bush swoon by selected members of the left commentariat is temporary," Rove answered. "Their swamp fevers will return momentarily."

Bush himself has declined to comment on the mosque affair.

I would be surprised if Bush publicly comments on this. That's one thing I actually like about him is that he's remained respectfully quiet about the current President, in contrast to a crappy President from the lat 70s.

[Monker]

I GOT IT... PUT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS NEXT TO THE MOSQUE about the same height and width...
lets let the liberals trash the ten commandments and go pray in the mosque ( i mean community center.) ... HAHAHA....

So, this really is about your religion being better than theirs.

actually look at the fuss you all (liberals) put up about putting the tablets in a federal court house, school houses,etc...NOT TO BE ABLE TO put up the ten commandments...

The problem with this, IMO, is if you open up the public schools for displays of Christianity, you have to open up public schools for displays of ALL religion...Judaism, Muslim, Hindu, Wiccan, Satanism, whatever...Do you want all of that in the public schools? Maybe they should have a room with a pentagram on the floor for the Satanists, and a stone circle in the playground for the Celts.

And, IMO, the religious right has pushed the 'prayer in school' issue to the point where anything is challenged as 'offensive'...because the 'atheist left' does not want to allow ANY opening for prayer to return. It is a two way street and neither side wants to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

and for that matter not even celebrating christmas in the schools... because WE might offend the one person who doesnt believe...

Correct...it's a PUBLIC school. Supporting one religion over another is wrong. If you want to celebrate Christian holidays in school, send them to a private school.

but want to build a mosque right in the heart of where the terrorist attacked WHERE ALL AMERICANS have been effected... no problem...

Correct...because that is the law. And, there are already Mosques in the area. Are you proposing they are offensive and should be torn down? The entire argument is ridiculous, IMO.

[Monker]

I don’t know whether to call it irony or hypocrisy, probably both, but consider this. George Bush lied us into a war in Iraq but even after it was known that their were no WMDs there and that Saddam Hussein wasn’t training terrorists the war mongering rethugs still tried to validate the war by calling it “Operation Iraqi Freedom”. They justified it by saying we were freeing all of those poor downtrodden Iraqis from the evil despot Saddam Hussein. We needed to free them so that they could become a Democracy and enjoy the same freedoms that we do.

What are those poor downtrodden Iraqis? They’re muslims. Yes folks, sunni’s and shiites are muslims.

Yep...so when these Muslim fundamentalists finally DO have control over their county, their Democracy will not be voting in the types of leaders that we would like...I have always believed that an Iraqi 'democracy' will resemble Iran more then any other nation...and that is NOT a good thing.

[AlteredDNA]

Correct...it's a PUBLIC school. Supporting one religion over another is wrong. If you want to celebrate Christian holidays in school, send them to a private school.

So is it your belief then that no extra provisions should be made for Muslims in public schools?

[Rip Rokken]

I don't believe there was any precedent in the New Testament for believers to make a professional living in the ministry. They all had their own careers.

Early on, they certainly did but that doesn't mean it's wrong to devote yourself full time to a ministry. I know very few pastors who would be able to make any kind of a living at all if they had to hold a profession outside their ministry. The believers in the Bible who headed up churches had their own unique set of circumstances to deal with and, that being said, there's no prohibition against it in the Bible, either.

I kind of think of it (very loosely) like politicians who are supported by taxpayer money. Sure, the government is empowered to levy a tax sufficient to maintain the government, but I doubt the founding fathers intended on giving politicians carte blanche to live as wastefully and extravagantly as they do. Ya know? I could argue that morally, they have an obligation to take as little as they can for themselves so that more could be used for the good of the taxpayers. Of course it's debatable where to draw that line, but safe to say that when you read that Michelle Obama is taking heat for taking extravagant vacations while the country is in general recession, they probably don't need to be drawing that line themselves.

With ministers, the Apostles traveled around and received hospitality, but even Paul wrote that when they came among the churches, they worked with their own hands to support themselves. This whole notion of paid professional ministry came about with the clergy-laity system, which really effectively killed the equal functioning of members and made them dependent on guys at the top. It was never supposed to be the practice, but it's now traditional. Back to the money, if someone wants to accept paid clergy, then that line comes back into play, and who draws it? The Bible indicates that the Christian life is one of rejection and suffering to an extent, but lots of these guys these days are all for becoming well-known and esteemed in the community, then living a lifestyle to match. 6-figure salaries, big homes, all that good stuff. Probably not much suffering or rejection, and definitely lots of money wasted on making the flock comfortable as well rather than feeding the poor, supporting missions, etc. Most of that stuff is a drop in the bucket compared to what it costs to support the staff and the huge structures they build, complete with built-in Starbucks, extremely expensive A/V systems, etc. Not to mention the bookstores where the church sells their own products from t-shirts to books to recorded sermons. Lot of money to be made in ministry these days.

Here's a kicker for ya... I do contract work for a well-known local denominational church who expanded quite a bit in the last few years to get that megachurch thing going on. I came by one day and noticed two of the new buildings were named after 2 of the sitting senior pastors (e.g., "The Rev. Joe A. Blow Discipleship Center"). I made a joke to one of the staffers and asked, "Did something happen to them?" She replied with kind of an embarrassed smile, "No... they're still alive and well." Most of their staff aren't even members so it's easy to get their opinions, lol. I mean, WTH?!? How can someone seriously pass themselves off as a model for Biblical Christian living when they erect large monuments to themselves basically, for their own legacy I guess? The Bible paints a totally different picture of what a Christian should be.

Nobody seems to pay much attention to example of Jesus whipping the money changers in the temple anymore.

I think most Christians think any display of public anger is wrong. Jesus did it on more than one occasion and, in this case, it was somewhat violent anger in the temple against those who were supposed to be doing God's business. Anyway, today's money changers are the aforementioned televangelists (not all of them, but most) and those commercializing the church for sure.

Commercialization in Christianity is the order of the day anymore, at least here in America. Jesus would have a field day. I remember when it really hit me the most. It was when I saw "LEFT BEHIND" emergency post-rapture survival kits being sold in Christian bookstores. I'd already thought those authors were probably raking it in by dragging the Left Behind series out much longer than it needed to be, but to sell kits supposedly for anyone who finds themselves missing the rapture was tasteless and exploitative of the whole idea.

[Rip Rokken]

But why in this world would anyone think God favors one nation over another? That just doesn't make sense to me. It's like those asshole football players who think that praying is gonna help them win a game. It's just amazingly naive and borders on stupid to think that God is taking sides. That's putting too many human qualities on God and making Him in our image, instead of vice versa.

LOL, I agree totally. Very few things used to irk me more than people spiritualizing sports events, etc. I can understand praying to perform well, not get injured, etc. I know a lot of it is tongue-in-cheek but I think there really are people who believe God cares about football. People definitely create God in their own image, I think it's kinda the standard for many. Even in recovery programs, they talk about the "God of their understanding". I've seen people describe God in pretty godless terms, cussing them out and stuff, just because that was the way they wanted to visualize God. Something is either true or it's not, so God is either that way or He ain't. One thing I've never had a desire to do was worship a God of my own creation to make me feel better or feel "spiritual". I'd either want to know who He really was and relate to Him on His terms, or dispense with the idea altogether.

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

Commercialization in Christianity is the order of the day anymore, at least here in America. Jesus would have a field day. I remember when it really hit me the most. It was when I saw "LEFT BEHIND" emergency post-rapture survival kits being sold in Christian bookstores. I'd already thought those authors were probably raking it in by dragging the Left Behind series out much longer than it needed to be, but to sell kits supposedly for anyone who finds themselves missing the rapture was tasteless and exploitative of the whole idea.

I dont understand why would anyone who get left behind be in a christian book store. Dont all the Christians ascend at once. Non Christians wouldnt frequent christian bookstores. The sellers of these kits ought to be selling em at Titty Bars and Motley Crue concerts shouldn't they?. Heck its the unsaved left behind that would need the left behind kit? Sounds like crap marketing strategy!!!

[BobbyinTN]

I GOT IT... PUT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS NEXT TO THE MOSQUE about the same height and width...
lets let the liberals trash the ten commandments and go pray in the mosque ( i mean community center.) ... HAHAHA....

So, this really is about your religion being better than theirs.

actually look at the fuss you all (liberals) put up about putting the tablets in a federal court house, school houses,etc...NOT TO BE ABLE TO put up the ten commandments... and for that matter not even celebrating christmas in the schools... because WE might offend the one person who doesnt believe... but want to build a mosque right in the heart of where the terrorist attacked WHERE ALL AMERICANS have been effected... no problem...

see my point...

What the hell does that mean? Christians can still have their churches, worship whenever they please, they just can't push it on the rest of us and if they can't respect other religions and religious beliefs, they don't deserve respect themselves. And prayer in school is not forbidden, teacher lead prayer is forbidden. School is not the fuckin' place for religion, church is. Why is that so confusing to some people?

[BobbyinTN]

But why in this world would anyone think God favors one nation over another? That just doesn't make sense to me.

You don't think God favors one nation over another? The Bible says God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble. That applies to nations as well as individual people, in my opinion.

It's like those asshole football players who think that praying is gonna help them win a game. It's just amazingly naive and borders on stupid to think that God is taking sides. That's putting too many human qualities on God and making Him in our image, instead of vice versa.

First off, please note that you're judging people again, something you said you don't do. Secondly, I don't know many, or any for that matter, who think God takes sides in a simple game. The prayer is not for victory. The flag football league my daughter plays in, for instance, starts with a prayer at the beginning of the game, not for victory but for safety and to give Him thanks.

Oh come on. You've seen the touchdowns when the person making the touchdown points skyward, haven't you?

And please get off the judging thing. You can't accept that I don't judge, that's fine, I don't care. I'm not judging you for it. LOL

[BobbyinTN]

Did you know there's a passage in the Bible where Jesus tells people not to pray in public? It was considered boastful and He didn't like it.

Well, that's not quite the whole story, though...You're talking about this passage in the book of Matthew:

Mat 6:5-6 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. (6) But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

However, if Jesus literally meant to always pray only in private then that would make him a hypocrite. He often prayed in public both with his disciples present and others. His disciples, who carried on the faith and started Christianity after him prayed in public. It's also interesting to note that right after the above-quoted passage, Jesus himself then prays in public, teaching them the Lord's prayer.

What I read from that passage is that Jesus is saying these people are praying to get the attention of others...and you should be praying to get the attention of God.

But he also says, "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

[stevew2]

Did you know there's a passage in the Bible where Jesus tells people not to pray in public? It was considered boastful and He didn't like it.

Well, that's not quite the whole story, though...You're talking about this passage in the book of Matthew:

Mat 6:5-6 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. (6) But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

However, if Jesus literally meant to always pray only in private then that would make him a hypocrite. He often prayed in public both with his disciples present and others. His disciples, who carried on the faith and started Christianity after him prayed in public. It's also interesting to note that right after the above-quoted passage, Jesus himself then prays in public, teaching them the Lord's prayer.

What I read from that passage is that Jesus is saying these people are praying to get the attention of others...and you should be praying to get the attention of God.

But he also says, "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

Thou shalt not lie with man kind as with women kind it is an abomination and they will surely be put to death Leviticus 18:22 .if you are going to quote the Bible go on the LEV.20:13 Ill quote it for you if you try to distort the truth again

[stevew2]

I GOT IT... PUT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS NEXT TO THE MOSQUE about the same height and width...
lets let the liberals trash the ten commandments and go pray in the mosque ( i mean community center.) ... HAHAHA....

So, this really is about your religion being better than theirs.

actually look at the fuss you all (liberals) put up about putting the tablets in a federal court house, school houses,etc...NOT TO BE ABLE TO put up the ten commandments... and for that matter not even celebrating christmas in the schools... because WE might offend the one person who doesnt believe... but want to build a mosque right in the heart of where the terrorist attacked WHERE ALL AMERICANS have been effected... no problem...

see my point...

What the hell does that mean? Christians can still have their churches, worship whenever they please, they just can't push it on the rest of us and if they can't respect other religions and religious beliefs, they don't deserve respect themselves. And prayer in school is not forbidden, teacher lead prayer is forbidden. School is not the fuckin' place for religion, church is. Why is that so confusing to some people?

You are a retard,and id rather you not blow your brains out like you told me to, you nutcase

[Monker]

Did you know there's a passage in the Bible where Jesus tells people not to pray in public? It was considered boastful and He didn't like it.

Well, that's not quite the whole story, though...You're talking about this passage in the book of Matthew:

Mat 6:5-6 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. (6) But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

However, if Jesus literally meant to always pray only in private then that would make him a hypocrite. He often prayed in public both with his disciples present and others. His disciples, who carried on the faith and started Christianity after him prayed in public. It's also interesting to note that right after the above-quoted passage, Jesus himself then prays in public, teaching them the Lord's prayer.

What I read from that passage is that Jesus is saying these people are praying to get the attention of others...and you should be praying to get the attention of God.

But he also says, "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

Thou shalt not lie with man kind as with women kind it is an abomination and they will surely be put to death Leviticus 18:22 .if you are going to quote the Bible go on the LEV.20:13 Ill quote it for you if you try to distort the truth again

And, Jesus commanded you to love your enemies. He entered the company of the lowest of society...tax collectors, prostitute, Romans...and did so with the love and compassion of a father, and gave them the opportunity for salvation.

So, when are you going to ask Bobby to wash your feet, and sit at dinner with him, and tell him you love him?

If you can't do that, then maybe you shouldn't be quoting scripture...because, as the quote goes, even the devil can quote scripture when it suits his purpose.

His point is justified...the pastors he is talking about are doing exactly as the hypocrites Jesus spoke of by praying for attention of the flock so they get donations so they can become wealthy...instead of praying to God for unselfish reasons, for other people and their well being. Jesus told the rich man to give all of his money to the poor...not to take money from others to become rich.