Stephen Hawking says universe not created by God

[YoungJRNY]

A lot of people are going to hell in this forum.

I don't buy this threat nor do I care. If God wants to play his silly little game and use his "children" as pawns on a chess board to only create life to only be used to bow down to him who put all of his words in a silly book that man has created and changed over the years (even though he left no trace of his entire existence on Earth that even holds the remains of the pre-historic Dinosaur era) while he sends all of his lovable children to a place he created where we suffer & burn for all of eternity, even in the midst of one person being a great casualty to mankind with great value's who is as nice as the next pair of tits that you see walking down the street then I will have no problem giving him the middle finger solute and personally walking down to hell myself for all I care.

If you think about it, God's an asshole:

"I am God and I have a great idea. I am going to create these imperfect beings and create a world that is damn near impossible to live comfortable in. Even though their minds (I WILL create some that are differnt in mind control who could turn out to be demented or have no conscience of awareness of things like killing their fellow man) will be on things I will provide them like air, water, food, shelter from the other living things that can tear them apart and eat them (creatures to whom I will call Bears, Coyotes, rabid dogs and ehh.. what the hell, Sharks for water) and deal with such things as organs that shut down occasionally like cancer to where there would be no hope to survive that piece of the puzzle. I will also manage the human body that won't be able to live in the atmosphere I put them in that include: severe winters, hurricanes, tornadoes, and insanely hot temperatures that dehydrate the body alone."

"I will create a sense of emotion and feeling I will call love and let them get attached and share that certain love with somebody such as family, but abruptly pull that right out of their hands on any given day without explanation only because I will be in a bad mood and decide that enough is enough and choose one to come home to where that liability would have to answer to me. How they come home will also be chosen, whether it be in their sleep, getting beaten, shot, suffocated, or just plain old suffering from that thing I created called cancer a little bit ago. Not to worry though, that is not the point. I'm going to make it as hard as possible and this is my path for them to teach them the whole point in this life and that is me, their creator. "

"I am going to make billions upon billions and billions of them, even some of different ethnicity to where they won't even speak the same language or value of life. I will create different scenario's for different people I hand pick and see if they are up for the task of putting up with the path I have chosen for them (like retardation, having one leg, being blind, and having other kinds of 'disadvantages' like irritable bowl syndrome or personal appearance even though some will have fantastic characteristics like big cocks, big tits, nice hair and academically and/or physically gifted,. They will be handpicked mind you.) I will create different versions of faith and other Gods of religion to test their will to see if they can pick their RIGHT and ONE God: Me. They must bow down to me and worship me, even though I will never cease to exist nor show myself or give any possible way to ever make it known that I am certainly here right now. I will make countless upon countless of different galaxies and planets out of sheer board-em. Will life exist outside of their puny world I sneezed? They need to distinguish that by themselves. How? That's up to them. Muahahah, muahahaha, muahahah."

What a dick.

In the words of Bill Burr:

"Have you ever been dead? No? great, so isn't it safe to say that you don't have the slightest fucking idea what happens to you when you die?"

[RedWingFan]

I told her I get her Faith and love her to death for it but faith doesn't translate into fact and a book of passages written by man, like me and you, doesn't make something FACT either.

"Written by man, like me and you" who were guided by the Holy Spirit. Important little omission there Trav.

[Rip Rokken]

...she tried arguein with me that if I don't pass, it was because I didn't believe in myself and have enough faith and pray and let God guide me through it and explained she got through college because of her faith of God giving her the amount of strength to succeed. I wigged on her because I'm so sick and fucking tired of hearing this complete CROCK OF SHIT theory that God gives people of faith "powers to do something."

Tell her that her logic is flawed... In order for God to guide you thru anything, you'd have to have the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide you. The Spirit doesn't enter you until you are Born Again. He's not going to do that from the outside, or if it would, then why would anyone need him on the inside?

I called her bluff and straight up told her it was all diarrhea and that I couldn't help but laugh at how smart of a girl she is and then turn around and not understand the "logic" she thought she was spewing and that she certainly is in delusion in thinking so and how mental and brainwashed she SERIOUSLY sounds. I told her I get her Faith and love her to death for it but faith doesn't translate into fact and a book of passages written by man, like me and you, doesn't make something FACT either.

It's amazing how otherwise rational people in every other sense can believe something so completely irrational, even in the face of evidence against it. It's impossible for the New Testament to be perfect, because so many errors have been found in earlier texts, and in some cases the actual text seems to have been modified or even added to "correct" things the scribes or early churches found to be problematic. Or changed to meet political agendas of the time. There is a ton of info on this out there, and apparently every bible college teaches this as well. It's just fact, can't be disputed.[/quote]

[Rip Rokken]

I told her I get her Faith and love her to death for it but faith doesn't translate into fact and a book of passages written by man, like me and you, doesn't make something FACT either.

"Written by man, like me and you" who were guided by the Holy Spirit. Important little omission there Trav.

Did the Holy Spirit guide them to write such absolute contradictions in facts among the 4 gospels? There is no way to read them side by side and take them literally. They don't even agree on what day Jesus died, or whether the stone was already rolled away from the tomb when Mary Magdelene arrived. If the Holy Spirit guided them, why was he incapable of preserving those original words (much less the original written documents) throughout the ages? Why did he allow changes, deletions, or additions which remained in your common everyday bible?

Revelation 22:18-19 (New American Standard Bible)

I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Correct me if I'm wrong and that only applies to Revelation.

[parfait]

A lot of people are going to hell in this forum.

I don't buy this threat nor do I care. If God wants to play his silly little game and use his "children" as pawns on a chess board to only create life to only be used to bow down to him who put all of his words in a silly book that man has created and changed over the years (even though he left no trace of his entire existence on Earth that even holds the remains of the pre-historic Dinosaur era) while he sends all of his lovable children to a place he created where we suffer & burn for all of eternity, even in the midst of one person being a great casualty to mankind with great value's who is as nice as the next pair of tits that you see walking down the street then I will have no problem giving him the middle finger solute and personally walking down to hell myself for all I care.

If you think about it, God's an asshole:

"I am God and I have a great idea. I am going to create these imperfect beings and create a world that is damn near impossible to live comfortable in. Even though their minds (I WILL create some that are differnt in mind control who could turn out to be demented or have no conscience of awareness of things like killing their fellow man) will be on things I will provide them like air, water, food, shelter from the other living things that can tear them apart and eat them (creatures to whom I will call Bears, Coyotes, rabid dogs and ehh.. what the hell, Sharks for water) and deal with such things as organs that shut down occasionally like cancer to where there would be no hope to survive that piece of the puzzle. I will also manage the human body that won't be able to live in the atmosphere I put them in that include: severe winters, hurricanes, tornadoes, and insanely hot temperatures that dehydrate the body alone."

"I will create a sense of emotion and feeling I will call love and let them get attached and share that certain love with somebody such as family, but abruptly pull that right out of their hands on any given day without explanation only because I will be in a bad mood and decide that enough is enough and choose one to come home to where that liability would have to answer to me. How they come home will also be chosen, whether it be in their sleep, getting beaten, shot, suffocated, or just plain old suffering from that thing I created called cancer a little bit ago. Not to worry though, that is not the point. I'm going to make it as hard as possible and this is my path for them to teach them the whole point in this life and that is me, their creator. "

"I am going to make billions upon billions and billions of them, even some of different ethnicity to where they won't even speak the same language or value of life. I will create different scenario's for different people I hand pick and see if they are up for the task of putting up with the path I have chosen for them (like retardation, having one leg, being blind, and having other kinds of 'disadvantages' like irritable bowl syndrome or personal appearance even though some will have fantastic characteristics like big cocks, big tits, nice hair and academically and/or physically gifted,. They will be handpicked mind you.) I will create different versions of faith and other Gods of religion to test their will to see if they can pick their RIGHT and ONE God: Me. They must bow down to me and worship me, even though I will never cease to exist nor show myself or give any possible way to ever make it known that I am certainly here right now. I will make countless upon countless of different galaxies and planets out of sheer board-em. Will life exist outside of their puny world I sneezed? They need to distinguish that by themselves. How? That's up to them. Muahahah, muahahaha, muahahah."

What a dick.

In the words of Bill Burr:

"Have you ever been dead? No? great, so isn't it safe to say that you don't have the slightest fucking idea what happens to you when you die?"

Dude; where the hell were you the last time we had this discussion?!

You make some great points. God was created by man (or rather men, who over several hundreds years) made this shit up, to try and explain whatever questions they needed answering. There are several occasions where the authors don't even agree on a given subject. Matthew and Luke cannot concur on the Virgin Birth or the genealogy of Jesus. They flatly contradict each other on the "Flight into Egypt," Matthew saying that Joseph was "warned in a dream" to make an immediate escape and Luke saying that all three stayed in Bethlehem until Mary's "purification according to the laws of Moses," which would make it forty days, and then went back to Nazareth via Jerusalem. The historical accuracy of the bible is also highly debatable - archeologists have found several statements in the bible to rather retarded. Joshua's conquest of the city Ai was found to be a blatant lie after extensive research; the city was destroyed ca 1000 years before Joshua's time.


Religious belief is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you - who must, indeed, subject you - to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life - I say, of your life - before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead. A celestial North Korea. Who wants this to be true? Who but a slave desires such a ghastly fate? I've been to North Korea. It has a dead man as its president, Kim Jong-Il is only head of the party and head of the army. He's not head of the state. That office belongs to his deceased father, Kim Il-Sung. It's a necrocracy, a thanatocracy. It's one short of a trinity I might add. The son is the reincarnation of the father. It is the most revolting and utter and absolute and heartless tyranny the human species has ever evolved. But at least you can fucking die and leave North Korea!

Some theists are so full of shit that if you gave them an enema, they would fit in a matchbox.

[MartyMoffatt]

Here’s more food for thought. I know this is slightly off topic but it’s sort of related to the direction this thread has taken…

I once came into contact with members of the Aetherius Society, a quasi Christian spiritual organisation who emphatically believe, among other things, that Christ is alive and well and living on Pluto. This organisation has thousands of followers worldwide (although I believe the majority are in the US). They all firmly believe the teachings of their ‘prophet’, Dr George King, that most of the planets in our solar system are inhabited by beings more advanced than us, and that all the great religious leaders in our history are in fact visitors from these worlds. They cannot provide any evidence for it, but they have an unshakeable faith that it is true. They are every bit as serious in their convictions as the most committed Christian or Jew etc, and I have had many arguments with the Aetherius Society in the past trying to convince them of the folly of such unsupported beliefs. However, while they may be off their trolley, in reality they have provided no less convincing an argument for their particular faith than any other religious person.

I’m not suggesting that everybody with faith is as misguided as these people, but can you see how, to anyone who lives life according to a doctrine of scientific deduction, logic and evidential proof, any faith based system is automatically suspect?

[MartyMoffatt]

I do realise that this is an unwinnable argument from both sides.

People with an atheistic outlook will always say ‘I can’t believe in God because there is no proof. However, there is proof of this, or that or the other so those are the things I believe’

People with a faith based outlook will always say ‘I don’t recognise or believe your proof and moreover I don’t need any proof to believe in my God because I have faith’.

And never the twain shall meet!

I’m not trying to upset anyone so apologies if this does, but I do like discussing this particular subject as I search for my own answers, and like to provide fuel for a healthy debate. It looks like we’ve digressed a little from the original thread topic too. I’m sure we’ll get back to Hawking’s comments sooner or later.

Meanwhile, it is an interesting topic to debate, so with that in mind I’d like to offer a few more tidbits…..

[MartyMoffatt]

God must have been very, very bored for a very long time, for him to wait over four and a half Billion years before he created a creature ‘in his own likeness’. Why would he wait that long?

Or is it that we should reject the pretty well established evidence for evolution? Evidence which not only proves the historical sequence of events that got us to where we are today but is ongoing today and can be predicted and proved over and over again. I have an active interest in paleontology and anthropology and I’ve seen thousands upon thousands of fossilised skeletons and skulls showing a clear progression of features from one species into another. Even if we dispute the timeframe surely we cannot see these things and believe they were all created simultaneously and independently as unique creatures. If so, why don’t we see these millions of vanished species wandering around today?

And I’m not just talking about biological evolution, but geological and astronomical changes as well. I’ve just been watching a program about the birth of Great Britain from a geological perspective. It’s actually pretty mind blowing stuff, showing how parts of the island were once separated by thousands of miles and came together in a flurry of volcanic activity as tectonic plates collided, only to be pulled apart millions of years later as the plates shifted again. The forces which caused this activity can be clearly be seen through (literally and figuratively) mountains of evidence, proving that the UK was once as geologically active as Iceland is today. I find it inconceivable that all this evidence was instantaneously and simultaneously ‘planted’ there for no reason other than for us to argue about it.

As far as astronomical ‘science versus faith’ arguments go, it is true that some theories about the construction and duration of the universe are not yet empirically proven and much is not yet fully understood. However, that’s no reason to reject all the other well established evidence that is there, in favour of the safe ‘somebody else is looking after us’ belief. The universe is BIG. Very, very big. Incomprehensively big. Our galaxy is a tiny unremarkable galaxy among millions of others (that we know of). Our sun is a small unremarkable star in our galaxy among billions of other stars (that we know of). All this is well established accepted fact. On Earth each of the six and a half billion human occupants is an individual. Add to this the billions upon billions of other living things alive right now, and the countless trillions more creatures who have lived at one time or another. I really struggle to comprehend the concept that some single consciousness is taking a personal interest in each and every being on Earth, let alone everything else here, down to microscopic levels. And even if that were the case, who the hell is looking after the rest of the universe, as it carries on in its own sweet way irrespective of anything we do? That must take an awful lot of looking after.

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

"

so full of shit that if you gave them an enema, they would fit in a matchbox.

I dont really care to get involved in this argument but Ive got to say , what a fantastic insult.

I must make an effort to pull that one out and use it soon.

[RedWingFan]

Don't remember how many times I've said this on this forum.

If you want to tell your kids that their destiny is nothing but being worm food. Knock yourself out.

[Rip Rokken]

A lot of people are going to hell in this forum.

I really like you, Vanish. I never told you this, but when I met you at MelodicRock Fest II, I guessed that you were a believer without you saying anything about it. It's your eyes, and there is a calm and peace about you. I've seen that in people a thousand times, and I've also had people tell me the exact same thing about myself many times. I was an absolute, die-hard believer until only a few years ago when I had a major faith crisis that I could not recover from. I mentioned something about it here, and had some PMs from other believers wanting to encourage me. I kinda spilled my guts about how I was feeling and was shocked that each person I talked to confessed that they'd been having the same struggles lately. At least one admitted that they'd just been afraid to talk about it. Another person told me that what I was going thru was actually natural, and that all believers are tested in that way at some point in their Christian life. I couldn't buy that, and the logic of why God would continue to be so absolutely elusive and flat out ignore the prayers of people who earnestly sought him. I've heard all the defenses of God to this, and it's usually based on additional fault or understanding of the believer. Always, actually. If you tell me that I must not have been praying for the right things or in the right way, then even the pattern of the Lord's Prayer isn't effective, and neither is praying for God to help me grow spiritually of be comforted by his presence. All I can tell you is that over the course of my life, I tried everything I could think of, followed the advice of so many people who knew more than me, and ended up concluding that the God I'd followed for 2 decades just didn't live up to what the Bible claims about him. Man, I'm not even scratching the surface, so there is no way to quickly explain the long, drawn out process of losing faith or the absolute pain a seeking believer goes thru when he starts to feel abandoned by God.

I'm absolutely not going to Hell, I can't. I believe now it doesn't exist at all, but if it does, and everything in the Bible is true, then I'm still not going because of the Calvinist "once saved, always saved" doctrine. I don't believe the bible teaches you can lose your salvation, and it promises that the good work He began in you, He will complete. So this being true, the Holy Spirit still lives in me, and my sins have been forgiven. Oddly he hasn't done one thing to give me any feelings of love, or let me know that I'm not alone, that he is still there and cares about me. Not one iota of comfort. The only feelings I've had stirring up from that deepest place are fear. Is that all God has for me?

What YoungJRNY said about "pawns in a chess game" really hit home to me, because about 5 years ago I had that same conversation with some elders from my church. I'd been feeling the same thing, and it wasn't a conscious type of thought like I chose to think that way in defiance. It was a nagging from inside that I couldn't shake. Was it just Satan, or was it just my rational mind not being able to reconcile what I could tell didn't add up? God's nature as put forth in the bible was bothering me, because we are told he is absolutely loving and merciful, but is also absolutely righteous. I was having a difficult time seeing either of those things. Read the cruelties of the Old Testament god and there is no way in hell anyone can convince me he was merciful. He was just another cruel tyrant who slew people over any whim, even a group of 40-something youths just for making fun of the prophet Elisha's baldness:

2 Kings 2:23-25 - Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number."

(the King James version translates it "little children", btw.)

How about the guy who reached up to steady the Ark of the Covenant when it looked like it was going to fall -- that's a good one:

2 Samuel 6:6-7 - But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it. And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God. (NASB)

Man, that wasn't purposeful disobedience -- that was natural reflex action that I'm sure anyone would do. If there was any thought, it might have been what God would do to me if I let it fall to the ground.

I refuse to worship any god who treats his people the way this one does, even in the New Testament. I'm not going to be a pawn in a chess game anymore, and suffer psychologically or emotionally any more over the feelings that God is not here for me or that I am not pleasing to him. in hopes that any of the promises about what is to come when I die are true. I'm also not going to live in fear of eternal punishment. God's had a million and one chances to made good on the promises he's made for today, while I'm still walking on the earth, and failed to deliver time after time.

The good thing is that I've finally opened myself up to real study, after removing the goggles of faith that I spent my whole life looking thru, and I'm starting to finally lose that inner dread and fear that tormented me so long. I still don't fear death at all, or what's to come. I'm starting to get my peace back, realizing that the choices I make in this life are mine alone, and that anything I accomplish or don't accomplish falls on me 100%, not some unseen hand. I certainly still try ("try" being the operative word) to live by the "Golden Rule", which never fails to bring happiness.

Look bro, you know I love you and I seriously have no desire to disprove your's or anyone else's faith. The loss of faith is excruciating, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone unless it happened naturally like it did to me. I honestly believe that Christian faith has made a wonderful difference in the lives of many (but not all) people who live by it. So has Buddhism for that example, or many other belief systems, and none above any other. Belief and hope are powerful things.

[RedWingFan]

Sad. Good luck to you Rip.

[Jana]

A lot of people are going to hell in this forum.

I really like you, Vanish. I never told you this, but when I met you at MelodicRock Fest II, I guessed that you were a believer without you saying anything about it. It's your eyes, and there is a calm and peace about you. I've seen that in people a thousand times, and I've also had people tell me the exact same thing about myself many times. I was an absolute, die-hard believer until only a few years ago when I had a major faith crisis that I could not recover from. I mentioned something about it here, and had some PMs from other believers wanting to encourage me. I kinda spilled my guts about how I was feeling and was shocked that each person I talked to confessed that they'd been having the same struggles lately. At least one admitted that they'd just been afraid to talk about it. Another person told me that what I was going thru was actually natural, and that all believers are tested in that way at some point in their Christian life. I couldn't buy that, and the logic of why God would continue to be so absolutely elusive and flat out ignore the prayers of people who earnestly sought him. I've heard all the defenses of God to this, and it's usually based on additional fault or understanding of the believer. Always, actually. If you tell me that I must not have been praying for the right things or in the right way, then even the pattern of the Lord's Prayer isn't effective, and neither is praying for God to help me grow spiritually of be comforted by his presence. All I can tell you is that over the course of my life, I tried everything I could think of, followed the advice of so many people who knew more than me, and ended up concluding that the God I'd followed for 2 decades just didn't live up to what the Bible claims about him. Man, I'm not even scratching the surface, so there is no way to quickly explain the long, drawn out process of losing faith or the absolute pain a seeking believer goes thru when he starts to feel abandoned by God.

I'm absolutely not going to Hell, I can't. I believe now it doesn't exist at all, but if it does, and everything in the Bible is true, then I'm still not going because of the Calvinist "once saved, always saved" doctrine. I don't believe the bible teaches you can lose your salvation, and it promises that the good work He began in you, He will complete. So this being true, the Holy Spirit still lives in me, and my sins have been forgiven. Oddly he hasn't done one thing to give me any feelings of love, or let me know that I'm not alone, that he is still there and cares about me. Not one iota of comfort. The only feelings I've had stirring up from that deepest place are fear. Is that all God has for me?

What YoungJRNY said about "pawns in a chess game" really hit home to me, because about 5 years ago I had that same conversation with some elders from my church. I'd been feeling the same thing, and it wasn't a conscious type of thought like I chose to think that way in defiance. It was a nagging from inside that I couldn't shake. Was it just Satan, or was it just my rational mind not being able to reconcile what I could tell didn't add up? God's nature as put forth in the bible was bothering me, because we are told he is absolutely loving and merciful, but is also absolutely righteous. I was having a difficult time seeing either of those things. Read the cruelties of the Old Testament god and there is no way in hell anyone can convince me he was merciful. He was just another cruel tyrant who slew people over any whim, even a group of 40-something youths just for making fun of the prophet Elisha's baldness:

2 Kings 2:23-25 - Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number."

(the King James version translates it "little children", btw.)

How about the guy who reached up to steady the Ark of the Covenant when it looked like it was going to fall -- that's a good one:

2 Samuel 6:6-7 - But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it. And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God. (NASB)

Man, that wasn't purposeful disobedience -- that was natural reflex action that I'm sure anyone would do. If there was any thought, it might have been what God would do to me if I let it fall to the ground.

I refuse to worship any god who treats his people the way this one does, even in the New Testament. I'm not going to be a pawn in a chess game anymore, and suffer psychologically or emotionally any more over the feelings that God is not here for me or that I am not pleasing to him. in hopes that any of the promises about what is to come when I die are true. I'm also not going to live in fear of eternal punishment. God's had a million and one chances to made good on the promises he's made for today, while I'm still walking on the earth, and failed to deliver time after time.

The good thing is that I've finally opened myself up to real study, after removing the goggles of faith that I spent my whole life looking thru, and I'm starting to finally lose that inner dread and fear that tormented me so long. I still don't fear death at all, or what's to come. I'm starting to get my peace back, realizing that the choices I make in this life are mine alone, and that anything I accomplish or don't accomplish falls on me 100%, not some unseen hand. I certainly still try ("try" being the operative word) to live by the "Golden Rule", which never fails to bring happiness.

Look bro, you know I love you and I seriously have no desire to disprove your's or anyone else's faith. The loss of faith is excruciating, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone unless it happened naturally like it did to me. I honestly believe that Christian faith has made a wonderful difference in the lives of many (but not all) people who live by it. So has Buddhism for that example, or many other belief systems, and none above any other. Belief and hope are powerful things.

I have to say I'm with you, Rip. I attended church my whole childhood, Baptist. And never stopped believing but left the church after high school and rediscovered a love of organized religion through the Presbyterian Church in my late twenties. There's two. The one I went to was more open-minded. I loved the minister, which they all have their Ph.Ds. in Religion, and loved that they were more intellectual I felt in using the Bible but taking it into the modern day during the sermon versus Baptist (which I can't swallow) doing a more Jay-sus wailing preachin' and more negative at times regarding the whole Hell thing. But as the years have gone on I have felt and gone through much of what you have said, and when I have challenged some of my friends or sister, they said they just choose to believe and not analyze it, which I understand. Presbyterian Church was always a comfort to me, and I'm not saying I wouldn't love it if I went there again. I would and would come away feeling good from the sermon, whatever the sermon was about re modern day living. But I just don't intellectually believe there is a God anymore. Though, I don't delve deep enough into it to say I TOTALLY 100 PERCENT think there can't be. I leave it open a little, I guess, and am kind of ambivalent about it more than anything. I stopped praying five years ago. One of the reasons was all the destruction and death and torture of women and children throughout the world and God not listening to their prayers. Why would he listen to mine? My poor mother would be rolling over in her grave to hear this because she truly believes I will be going to Hell not to 100 percent believe.

[Saint John]

Here's my honest take ... "religion" is the earliest recognition that humans are needy, easily manipulated and will do just about anything if you can make them believe in some set of "rules." When people become weary, leary or ask questions, "religious" leaders invoke the "faith" card. It trumps everything, allows them an exit and relinquishes their resposibility from answering tough questions. Logic be damned, just have faith. Yeah, ok whatever.

If you have a set of beliefs, and I do, those are yours and yours only. There's no need to spread those beliefs, erect places of worship or read thousand year old manuscripts of nothing more than pure bullshit. Use your time wisely, help others, make the world a better place and spread and promote love. More than anything, though, be secure enough in what you believe to allow others to have their own beliefs (except Muslims ... fuck them). Arguing about the "right path" is nothing more than a transparent, and probably subconscious, admission that you don't fully believe in your own "religion."

I was a philosophy major and while in college I asked myself to step back and forget everything I have ever been taught (brainwashed) concerning religion. I then "reprogrammed" myself and looked for those things that, if I had never been taught (brainwashed), would be universal in nature and always true. I basically came up with love, compassion, justice, tolerance, understanding and Journey. All bullshit aside, though, I don't need any thousand year old book to tell me how to live and I certainly don't need to scurry in to a place of worship every Sunday and sit, kneel and stand to feel good about myself. But I'm ok with those that do.

[Ehwmatt]

Here's my honest take ... "religion" is the earliest recognition that humans are needy, easily manipulated and will do just about anything if you can make them believe in some set of "rules." When people become weary, leary or ask questions, "religious" leaders invoke the "faith" card. It trumps everything, allows them an exit and relinquishes their resposibility from answering tough questions. Logic be damned, just have faith. Yeah, ok whatever.

If you have a set of beliefs, and I do, those are yours and yours only. There's no need to spread those beliefs, erect places of worship or read thousand year old manuscripts of nothing more than pure bullshit. Use your time wisely, help others, make the world a better place and spread and promote love. More than anything, though, be secure enough in what you believe to allow others to have their own beliefs (except Muslims ... fuck them). Arguing about the "right path" is nothing more than a transparent, and probably subconscious, admission that you don't fully believe in your own "religion."

I was a philosophy major and while in college I asked myself to step back and forget everything I have ever been taught (brainwashed) concerning religion. I then "reprogrammed" myself and looked for those things that, if I had never been taught (brainwashed), would be universal in nature and always true. I basically came up with love, compassion, justice, tolerance, understanding and Journey. All bullshit aside, though, I don't need any thousand year old book to tell me how to live and I certainly don't need to scurry in to a place of worship every Sunday and sit, kneel and stand to feel good about myself. But I'm ok with those that do.

Hey fucker, you in PA yet?

[Rip Rokken]

I’m not trying to upset anyone so apologies if this does, but I do like discussing this particular subject as I search for my own answers, and like to provide fuel for a healthy debate.

I totally understand, and I don't say what I say to upset anyone either or hurt their belief, and I'll never intentionally try to discourage anyone from their beliefs unless they are suffering like I was. Faith has always been my absolute favorite topic, and you can't get too deep for me when discussing it. I can't shut up about it when I get started. Amazingly, it's still my favorite topic after I found I could not sustain faith any longer. I started to say "lost my faith", but that's not really accurate -- it became unsustainable for me and it collapsed. For me, it's a step beyond having "no proof" because I was willing to forego any physical proofs for the existence of God -- that's what faith is, believing without seeing.

What finally did me in was the very clear and undeniable pattern of absolute randomness when it came to the effectiveness of prayer. Prayer for others, for situations, whatever. I rarely prayed for myself at all, except that the Lord would draw me closer to him and help me to grow spiritually where I lacked. I did pray that God would help me out in certain situations of course -- there were times where I even tried to "pray unceasingly", or basically keep a running dialog going with God all day. That never made any difference either, except that I was more likely to interpret any event in light of faith -- those were the goggles I was wearing, just a racist interprets anything thru the filter of racial inequality. We all have a subjective world-view that colors how we interpret most everything.

As a Christian looking thru that filter, I also had every ready-made excuse for why prayer rarely turned out well, and it usually had to do with God's perfect timing which generally seemed beyond reasonable human levels of patience -- it took away the ability to say that God didn't answer your prayer. Eventually though, that didn't work for me because the seemingly random way multiple events unfolded despite the ongoing prayers of thousands of believers made absolutely no sense at all, if you try to see any divine hand as being in control. Why give so many people a glimmer of hope and let them rejoice that their prayers have been answered, only to then cause doubt when the situation suddenly reverses course again and plummets? How does that increase belief at all? When this happens so many times, over and over again, you either have to decide to continue to have blind faith despite your rational observances, making the excuse that we just aren't meant to understand the mind of God, or finally come to grips with the fact that your experiences routinely don't match the promises set forth in the Bible, therefore something isn't adding up.

There have been several studies on the effectiveness of prayer, and they all came out pretty much the same -- it made no difference at all. In one of the most comprehensive studies, it turned out that people who were told they were being prayed for actually fared slightly worse, and they think it may have actually increased some anxiety or expectation that affected their situation. Here is an article on that study:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

Here's a response to that study by Christianity Today, and it doesn't do much to explain away the results:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/200 ... ml?start=1

[Rip Rokken]

Sad. Good luck to you Rip.

I cannot express the pain of feeling like I was a "tare" being separated from the "wheat"; that God hadn't found me useful enough to invest in my, and was separating me out. Nobody ever told me this, or tried to convince me God was punishing me (well a few did, but they were judgmental of everyone), and I've had hundreds of people pray for me, from family, to friends, to church members. I don't want to give the impression I was always miserable, because I wasn't -- I've been 110% "on fire" multiple times, and felt heaps and heaps of peace, joy, all that stuff. I now believe these are chemical things that occur in our brains, neurotransmitters that have been scientifically proven to affect mood. I still feel all those things today but to a more consistent degree than I ever did when I was a practicing, seeking believer - a total emotional roller coaster ride of highs and lows.

If you have any answers to justify why God would allow someone who wanted Him, and sought Him so hard could let that person slip away into unbelief, please let me know. Seriously, this goes to anyone who believes. Why would a God who promised that no one would be able to snatch a believer from His grasp (John 10:28) allow that to happen?

[Saint John]

Hey fucker, you in PA yet?

One week from today, maggot crotch.

[MartyMoffatt]

Hey Rip, very nicely put. I sympathise with your dilemma. I can’t say empathise because I can’t say I’ve ever lost faith as I don’t think I ever had it. Not since I was a little boy have I ever believed that praying and singing, in church or in private, would ever result in any positive outcome. Even at my own wedding many years ago I declined to pray or sing in the church.

(Before anybody calls me a hypocrite for getting married in a church when I didn’t believe, I was a little more ambivalent about things then. Whilst I didn’t necessarily believe, I hadn’t ruled it out and my thinking was that the religious aspects of the church service were as much for everybody else’s benefit – friends, family etc – as for my own. I have been married for 25 years and the strength and longevity of that marriage has not owed anything to religion.)

Not having faith certainly doesn’t mean not having values. I believe in all the same values of compassion, justice, tolerance etc as preached by the majority of faiths. And I fully endorse the rights and responsibilities of all people, without any prejudice, including their right to adopt any faith as they see fit.

I just don’t rely on some higher authority telling me what these values should be.

[Rip Rokken]

Here's my honest take ... "religion" is the earliest recognition that humans are needy, easily manipulated and will do just about anything if you can make them believe in some set of "rules." When people become weary, leary or ask questions, "religious" leaders invoke the "faith" card. It trumps everything, allows them an exit and relinquishes their resposibility from answering tough questions. Logic be damned, just have faith. Yeah, ok whatever.

I have to say I'm with you, Rip. I attended church my whole childhood, Baptist. And never stopped believing but left the church after high school and rediscovered a love of organized religion through the Presbyterian Church in my late twenties. There's two. The one I went to was more open-minded. I loved the minister, which they all have their Ph.Ds. in Religion, and loved that they were more intellectual I felt in using the Bible but taking it into the modern day during the sermon versus Baptist (which I can't swallow) doing a more Jay-sus wailing preachin' and more negative at times regarding the whole Hell thing. But as the years have gone on I have felt and gone through much of what you have said, and when I have challenged some of my friends or sister, they said they just choose to believe and not analyze it, which I understand. Presbyterian Church was always a comfort to me, and I'm not saying I wouldn't love it if I went there again. I would and would come away feeling good from the sermon, whatever the sermon was about re modern day living. But I just don't intellectually believe there is a God anymore. Though, I don't delve deep enough into it to say I TOTALLY 100 PERCENT think there can't be. I leave it open a little, I guess, and am kind of ambivalent about it more than anything. I stopped praying five years ago. One of the reasons was all the destruction and death and torture of women and children throughout the world and God not listening to their prayers. Why would he listen to mine? My poor mother would be rolling over in her grave to hear this because she truly believes I will be going to Hell not to 100 percent believe.

Religion has a lot in common with politics -- both end up with people at the top who benefit from the ignorance of the people who become dependent on them. The Bible itself discourages thought or questioning in so many ways. The story of ("Doubting") Thomas inspecting Christ's wounds, where Jesus says blessed are they who believe and have not seen. Also:

1 Corinthians 1:27 - but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,

Matthew 4:7 - Jesus answered him (Satan), "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'

Matthew 18:2-3 - He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

I actually believed all that stuff, and felt blessed that I could put away any questioning thoughts (which were just Satan) and simply believe like a little child. This was what I was taught and believed my God was:




Which speaking of, I'd also been taught that this was who my God was:



There is nothing that can convince me now that any of those times I felt a sudden peace during dark or seemingly hopeless times, it was Christ comforting me. Even people at the brink of suicide have been known to feel the same peace and calm, and it's thought to come from their belief that a solution is at hand. I'd think a loving, merciful God would show up long before someone sinks to rock bottom, but that's often his pattern when believers are suffering. I was also taught that God can only work when we remain "broken" and put aside the self -- that self was the only thing getting in the way. When you hit that rock bottom point, it's when you finally give up struggling and let God do his thing.

When you put all the things together that the Bible tells us about the nature of God (OT and NT), it's really disturbing, especially when Christians are supposed to become like him in nature. Think about it... if any of us treated our kids or anyone else the way God treats mankind, even believers, we'd be seen as narcissistic, controlling, manipulative, cruel -- basically a tyrant. These are all things that any of us, believers or not, will not accept in other people as being natural or healthy. But we excuse God for it because his mind is not our mind, his ways are not our ways, we cannot know or understand the mind of God. Believers contradict themselves all the time and shut out rational thought in order to maintain their belief.

[Rip Rokken]

Hey Rip, very nicely put. I sympathise with your dilemma. I can’t say empathise because I can’t say I’ve ever lost faith as I don’t think I ever had it. Not since I was a little boy have I ever believed that praying and singing, in church or in private, would ever result in any positive outcome. Even at my own wedding many years ago I declined to pray or sing in the church.

(Before anybody calls me a hypocrite for getting married in a church when I didn’t believe, I was a little more ambivalent about things then. Whilst I didn’t necessarily believe, I hadn’t ruled it out and my thinking was that the religious aspects of the church service were as much for everybody else’s benefit – friends, family etc – as for my own. I have been married for 25 years and the strength and longevity of that marriage has not owed anything to religion.)

Not having faith certainly doesn’t mean not having values. I believe in all the same values of compassion, justice, tolerance etc as preached by the majority of faiths. And I fully endorse the rights and responsibilities of all people, without any prejudice, including their right to adopt any faith as they see fit.

I just don’t rely on some higher authority telling me what these values should be.

I agree totally. People are told that a life without faith is unfulfilling, because we all have a "God-shaped hole". The concept of eternal punishment if they don't accept is added, and it's obvious that fear is a much more effective selling tool when the base message doesn't add up. Here is an interesting story about a Christian missionary who was unsuccessful in converting an Amazon tribe to Christianity, because their beliefs and practices were so rudimentary they could not even relate to the concept of an afterlife, or be convinced that they were unhappy and in need of something else to achieve fulfillment.

http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/ ... -904120305

His experiences with the tribe ended up causing his own deconversion, and he became an atheist.

Me, I'd have to say at this point that I'm agnostic, or possibly a deist. I lean toward belief in a creator, but haven't been able to reason from my own life or the lives of others that there is a personal God who is actively involved in managing our affairs. Not having the filter of faith governing the way I see the world, things have become a whole lot clearer now.

[Jana]

Here's my honest take ... "religion" is the earliest recognition that humans are needy, easily manipulated and will do just about anything if you can make them believe in some set of "rules." When people become weary, leary or ask questions, "religious" leaders invoke the "faith" card. It trumps everything, allows them an exit and relinquishes their resposibility from answering tough questions. Logic be damned, just have faith. Yeah, ok whatever.

I have to say I'm with you, Rip. I attended church my whole childhood, Baptist. And never stopped believing but left the church after high school and rediscovered a love of organized religion through the Presbyterian Church in my late twenties. There's two. The one I went to was more open-minded. I loved the minister, which they all have their Ph.Ds. in Religion, and loved that they were more intellectual I felt in using the Bible but taking it into the modern day during the sermon versus Baptist (which I can't swallow) doing a more Jay-sus wailing preachin' and more negative at times regarding the whole Hell thing. But as the years have gone on I have felt and gone through much of what you have said, and when I have challenged some of my friends or sister, they said they just choose to believe and not analyze it, which I understand. Presbyterian Church was always a comfort to me, and I'm not saying I wouldn't love it if I went there again. I would and would come away feeling good from the sermon, whatever the sermon was about re modern day living. But I just don't intellectually believe there is a God anymore. Though, I don't delve deep enough into it to say I TOTALLY 100 PERCENT think there can't be. I leave it open a little, I guess, and am kind of ambivalent about it more than anything. I stopped praying five years ago. One of the reasons was all the destruction and death and torture of women and children throughout the world and God not listening to their prayers. Why would he listen to mine? My poor mother would be rolling over in her grave to hear this because she truly believes I will be going to Hell not to 100 percent believe.

Religion has a lot in common with politics -- both end up with people at the top who benefit from the ignorance of the people who become dependent on them. The Bible itself discourages thought or questioning in so many ways. The story of ("Doubting") Thomas inspecting Christ's wounds, where Jesus says blessed are they who believe and have not seen. Also:

1 Corinthians 1:27 - but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,

Matthew 4:7 - Jesus answered him (Satan), "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'

Matthew 18:2-3 - He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

I actually believed all that stuff, and felt blessed that I could put away any questioning thoughts (which were just Satan) and simply believe like a little child. This was what I was taught and believed my God was:




Which speaking of, I'd also been taught that this was who my God was:



There is nothing that can convince me now that any of those times I felt a sudden peace during dark or seemingly hopeless times, it was Christ comforting me. Even people at the brink of suicide have been known to feel the same peace and calm, and it's thought to come from their belief that a solution is at hand. I'd think a loving, merciful God would show up long before someone sinks to rock bottom, but that's often his pattern when believers are suffering. I was also taught that God can only work when we remain "broken" and put aside the self -- that self was the only thing getting in the way. When you hit that rock bottom point, it's when you finally give up struggling and let God do his thing.

When you put all the things together that the Bible tells us about the nature of God (OT and NT), it's really disturbing, especially when Christians are supposed to become like him in nature. Think about it... if any of us treated our kids or anyone else the way God treats mankind, even believers, we'd be seen as narcissistic, controlling, manipulative, cruel -- basically a tyrant. These are all things that any of us, believers or not, will not accept in other people as being natural or healthy. But we excuse God for it because his mind is not our mind, his ways are not our ways, we cannot know or understand the mind of God. Believers contradict themselves all the time and shut out rational thought in order to maintain their belief.

Even as I was having loss of faith and doubting, I think what pushed me over the edge was taking a Bible course and really reading the Bible again. So much of it is just ludicrous. I almost wished I hadn't read it again. My friend did the same when we were discussing my doubting. She was in a Bible study course from front to back of the Bible. I asked her, didn't that raise questions for you reading it instead of just the usual reading verses and being in Church? She said she had never admitted it out loud but that it really had. Much of it seemed like a wild, fantastical story and disturbing in places, not believable, but she told me she just pushed it to the back of her mind because she wants to believe there is a God. Again, I understand that feeling, so never judge. Believing in Christ and God has brought a lot of my family and extended family peace and fellowship and sense of community in small towns.

[YoungJRNY]

Correct me if I'm wrong and that only applies to Revelation.

Great Album!

[YoungJRNY]

I told her I get her Faith and love her to death for it but faith doesn't translate into fact and a book of passages written by man, like me and you, doesn't make something FACT either.

"Written by man, like me and you" who were guided by the Holy Spirit. Important little omission there Trav.

You see, now that's just the thing. I see a LOT of scriptures in this thread that I'm not going to bother to take a look because anyone and everyone can pull that out of their ass and say "Travis:666 says.." No, I don't care. Just because it's written in fancy Old English and fancy language does not make it valuable or the norm of truth and reality. It's scriptures from a book that is hardly proven, if not at all. Now, if you have something that isn't being told by the book then I would like to hear it and would be open minded as it comes. I've read passages & stories of the Bible, plenty of times, I guess I'm just one of those people that sit there, realize and understand what I just read and say "..the fuck?"

[artist4perry]

Again I don't care what a person chooses to believe, it is an individual decision. But it worries me sometimes that some want to remove the rights of peaceful christians from exercising their first amendment right of freedom of expression of religion.

I am aware and respect those who cannot fathom a God in their life. I have never had a problem with anyone knowing I have full faith in God and Christ. I am not ashamed of it, nor will I ever be. I don't get arguing if God exists or not with someone who cannot ever even try to fathom such a thing. Kind of tire spinning in my oppinion, and it usually leads more to hurt feelings and anger wich is not what God is about at all. So I don't see getting into a big Brewhaha over it.

I also never see the need for attacking either someone for being an athiest, deist, agnostic, or druid.

And to the same effect, unless I am slaughtering folks in the name of my religion, and I am peaceful and loving, you should not be threatened by my personal choice either.

I have a live and let live policy. I try and see the good in most people. I might be irritated by a statement, but that does not equate my disliking you as an individual. I might just need to get to know you more.


Most people here are wonderful. And I would love to have dinner with the lot of you.

[Babyblue]

Here's my honest take ... "religion" is the earliest recognition that humans are needy, easily manipulated and will do just about anything if you can make them believe in some set of "rules." When people become weary, leary or ask questions, "religious" leaders invoke the "faith" card. It trumps everything, allows them an exit and relinquishes their resposibility from answering tough questions. Logic be damned, just have faith. Yeah, ok whatever.

If you have a set of beliefs, and I do, those are yours and yours only. There's no need to spread those beliefs, erect places of worship or read thousand year old manuscripts of nothing more than pure bullshit. Use your time wisely, help others, make the world a better place and spread and promote love. More than anything, though, be secure enough in what you believe to allow others to have their own beliefs (except Muslims ... fuck them). Arguing about the "right path" is nothing more than a transparent, and probably subconscious, admission that you don't fully believe in your own "religion."

I was a philosophy major and while in college I asked myself to step back and forget everything I have ever been taught (brainwashed) concerning religion. I then "reprogrammed" myself and looked for those things that, if I had never been taught (brainwashed), would be universal in nature and always true. I basically came up with love, compassion, justice, tolerance, understanding and Journey. All bullshit aside, though, I don't need any thousand year old book to tell me how to live and I certainly don't need to scurry in to a place of worship every Sunday and sit, kneel and stand to feel good about myself. But I'm ok with those that do.

Thank You!!!!!

[YoungJRNY]

Don't remember how many times I've said this on this forum.

If you want to tell your kids that their destiny is nothing but being worm food. Knock yourself out.

First off, why would any parent tell their kids such a thing? Who says that life and death needs to be discussed or explained for a child to understand such a thing at an early age and that we will be eaten by worms one day? That's not a way to handle a child and is completley irrelevant in this whole discussion. That's just being a bad parent. That's also like telling a child to not walk down that alley alone or that man down there is going to mug and molest you. Of course you won't tell your kid that. Why? Because it'll scare them. The Bible does nothing but scare people and would rather beat down a childrens brain that if you don't believe in an invisible man in the sky, then you will burn in hell for it. What is TRULY the right and wrong thing to raise a child? How about normal everyday life, things that we actually see and learn from everyday. The obvious stuff. That's a good place to start.

God is used as a figure of comfort of warmth for people who are absolutley scared to death of living, thus they need to obey by the Bible that tells them "everything they need to know when they die and this manual will tell you everything you need to know OR ELSE." It's a scare tactic to the highest degree if you ask me. Scares people, who are gullible as it comes anyway, to believing that there must be an answer for everything that has ever existed, and since this world will forever be the beholder of the unknown of how life does exist (even though there certainly are more logical findings and reading that are indeed proven and etched in stone from lady Earth herself with things such as scientific artifact and things that can be explained such as gravity of Earths pull. Don't believe me? Quick, grab a nearby pen, hold it out in front of you and let go of it. See what happens: PROOF that gravity exists) that humanity needs the comfort into knowing that this couldn't of come from nothing, thus believing in a higher power for comfort that we are here for a reason. Logic just doesn't support religion THE WHOLE WAY ACROSS THE BOARD, atleast in my eyes.

It doesn't bother me that people believe in such apparitions. I am the first to respect ones belief harder than I have ever respected ANYTHING ever before. It's just when it's talked about in a certain jest in vain that includes my own decisions and pushed upon myself to where I have a MAJOR problem with, a problem that pisses me off to no end.

[artist4perry]

Don't remember how many times I've said this on this forum.

If you want to tell your kids that their destiny is nothing but being worm food. Knock yourself out.

First off, why would any parent tell their kids such a thing? Who says that life and death needs to be discussed or explained for a child to understand such a thing at an early age and that we will be eaten by worms one day? That's not a way to handle a child and is completley irrelevant in this whole discussion. That's just being a bad parent. That's also like telling a child to not walk down that alley alone or that man down there is going to mug and molest you. Of course you won't tell your kid that. Why? Because it'll scare them. The Bible does nothing but scare people and would rather beat down a childrens brain that if you don't believe in an invisible man in the sky, then you will burn in hell for it. What is TRULY the right and wrong thing to raise a child? How about normal everyday life, things that we actually see and learn from everyday. The obvious stuff. That's a good place to start.

God is used as a figure of comfort of warmth for people who are absolutley scared to death of living, thus they need to obey by the Bible that tells them "everything they need to know when they die and this manual will tell you everything you need to know OR ELSE." It's a scare tactic to the highest degree if you ask me. Scares people, who are gullible as it comes anyway, to believing that there must be an answer for everything that has ever existed, and since this world will forever be the beholder of the unknown of how life does exist (even though there certainly are more logical findings and reading that are indeed proven and etched in stone from lady Earth herself with things such as scientific artifact and things that can be explained such as gravity of Earths pull. Don't believe me? Quick, grab a nearby pen, hold it out in front of you and let go of it. See what happens: PROOF that gravity exists) that humanity needs the comfort into knowing that this couldn't of come from nothing, thus believing in a higher power for comfort that we are here for a reason. Logic just doesn't support religion THE WHOLE WAY ACROSS THE BOARD, atleast in my eyes.

It doesn't bother me that people believe in such apparitions. I am the first to respect ones belief harder than I have ever respected ANYTHING ever before. It's just when it's talked about in a certain jest in vain that includes my own decisions and pushed upon myself to where I have a MAJOR problem with, a problem that pisses me off to no end.

I like you the way you are, you know this. But I don't like having my faith being put down any more than you like such things crammed down your throat. And I am far from afraid of living, also death holds no fear for me. Just a way of how one looks at it really.

[StyxCollector]

Sad. Good luck to you Rip.

What the fuck is that? Your way is not the right way; it's the right way for YOU. That I have no issue with. All religions have extremes, and living on the fringe and being a zealot isn't a good thing. Where I have an issue is when people try to impose their religious belief system on others.

As we come up on the new year (yes, it's Rosh Hashanah this week, and Yom Kippur next week) and things begin anew, at the end of the day, whether you're Jewish, some variation of Christian, Muslim, agnostic, Hindu, or whatever, it's about how you treat others. Just because you don't pray to the same deity doesn't mean anything. Whether you are a good person or not means more.

[Jana]

Don't remember how many times I've said this on this forum.

If you want to tell your kids that their destiny is nothing but being worm food. Knock yourself out.

First off, why would any parent tell their kids such a thing? Who says that life and death needs to be discussed or explained for a child to understand such a thing at an early age and that we will be eaten by worms one day? That's not a way to handle a child and is completley irrelevant in this whole discussion. That's just being a bad parent. That's also like telling a child to not walk down that alley alone or that man down there is going to mug and molest you. Of course you won't tell your kid that. Why? Because it'll scare them. The Bible does nothing but scare people and would rather beat down a childrens brain that if you don't believe in an invisible man in the sky, then you will burn in hell for it. What is TRULY the right and wrong thing to raise a child? How about normal everyday life, things that we actually see and learn from everyday. The obvious stuff. That's a good place to start.

God is used as a figure of comfort of warmth for people who are absolutley scared to death of living, thus they need to obey by the Bible that tells them "everything they need to know when they die and this manual will tell you everything you need to know OR ELSE." It's a scare tactic to the highest degree if you ask me. Scares people, who are gullible as it comes anyway, to believing that there must be an answer for everything that has ever existed, and since this world will forever be the beholder of the unknown of how life does exist (even though there certainly are more logical findings and reading that are indeed proven and etched in stone from lady Earth herself with things such as scientific artifact and things that can be explained such as gravity of Earths pull. Don't believe me? Quick, grab a nearby pen, hold it out in front of you and let go of it. See what happens: PROOF that gravity exists) that humanity needs the comfort into knowing that this couldn't of come from nothing, thus believing in a higher power for comfort that we are here for a reason. Logic just doesn't support religion THE WHOLE WAY ACROSS THE BOARD, atleast in my eyes.

It doesn't bother me that people believe in such apparitions. I am the first to respect ones belief harder than I have ever respected ANYTHING ever before. It's just when it's talked about in a certain jest in vain that includes my own decisions and pushed upon myself to where I have a MAJOR problem with, a problem that pisses me off to no end.

I've never found religion to be for people who are absolutely scared to death of living. Most people who believe in God don't take every single thing regarding the Bible literally and, certainly, don't live from a place of fear.