Stephen Hawking says universe not created by God

General Intelligent Discussion & One Thread About That Buttknuckle

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Postby YoungJRNY » Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:34 am

artist4perry wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:
RedWingFan wrote:Don't remember how many times I've said this on this forum.

If you want to tell your kids that their destiny is nothing but being worm food. Knock yourself out.


First off, why would any parent tell their kids such a thing? Who says that life and death needs to be discussed or explained for a child to understand such a thing at an early age and that we will be eaten by worms one day? That's not a way to handle a child and is completley irrelevant in this whole discussion. That's just being a bad parent. That's also like telling a child to not walk down that alley alone or that man down there is going to mug and molest you. Of course you won't tell your kid that. Why? Because it'll scare them. The Bible does nothing but scare people and would rather beat down a childrens brain that if you don't believe in an invisible man in the sky, then you will burn in hell for it. What is TRULY the right and wrong thing to raise a child? How about normal everyday life, things that we actually see and learn from everyday. The obvious stuff. That's a good place to start. :x

God is used as a figure of comfort of warmth for people who are absolutley scared to death of living, thus they need to obey by the Bible that tells them "everything they need to know when they die and this manual will tell you everything you need to know OR ELSE." It's a scare tactic to the highest degree if you ask me. Scares people, who are gullible as it comes anyway, to believing that there must be an answer for everything that has ever existed, and since this world will forever be the beholder of the unknown of how life does exist (even though there certainly are more logical findings and reading that are indeed proven and etched in stone from lady Earth herself with things such as scientific artifact and things that can be explained such as gravity of Earths pull. Don't believe me? Quick, grab a nearby pen, hold it out in front of you and let go of it. See what happens: PROOF that gravity exists) that humanity needs the comfort into knowing that this couldn't of come from nothing, thus believing in a higher power for comfort that we are here for a reason. Logic just doesn't support religion THE WHOLE WAY ACROSS THE BOARD, atleast in my eyes.

It doesn't bother me that people believe in such apparitions. I am the first to respect ones belief harder than I have ever respected ANYTHING ever before. It's just when it's talked about in a certain jest in vain that includes my own decisions and pushed upon myself to where I have a MAJOR problem with, a problem that pisses me off to no end.


I like you the way you are, you know this. But I don't like having my faith being put down any more than you like such things crammed down your throat. And I am far from afraid of living, also death holds no fear for me. Just a way of how one looks at it really.


Of course Ms. Ginger, and I don't mean to put anything down. I actually said the same thing to my girlfriend and me and you certainly have that same vibe going on here. I explained to her afterwards that no matter what you or I believe, is that all I know is that I love you more than ever and no certain belief or disbelief will change that. I told her that tomorrow isn't guranteed and that I will live today the way it's meant to live and faith will never change that outlook I have on life when it comes down to it. We both agreed.

That's just the way I feel and how these debates will certainly end up. I don't mean to offend anyone and I certainly won't be offended as well. These are just some of the things that need to be said looking from both ends of the spectrum in a debate that will always have things said that people won't be too fond about. Enter at your own risk. :lol: :wink:
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Postby Rip Rokken » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:10 am

Jana wrote:Even as I was having loss of faith and doubting, I think what pushed me over the edge was taking a Bible course and really reading the Bible again. So much of it is just ludicrous. I almost wished I hadn't read it again.


Isn't that strange? But it's true. Actually reading the Bible and getting a comprehensive view seems to be the deal-killer for many Christians. A good portion, possibly a majority these days don't really study that much at all outside of the pre-prepared lessons their church provides, or the verses the minister directs them to during the sermon. All the really problematic stuff never gets touched. For the people who do read it and have tough questions, that's where Apologetics comes in -- the Josh McDowells, the Lee Stroebels, etc. These guys are the God's P.R. team, and they are just as skilled as James Carville, Johnny Cochrane, whoever, of convincing people that the absolutely implausible is actually logical. Take the example I gave earlier:


2 Kings 2:23-25 - From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.


Does this sound in any way like the act of a just God, or is it even plausible that 2 bears could hurt 42 kids who would have been scattering in every direction? Does Elisha's reaction toward being called a name reflect anything the New Testament teaches us? Wasn't the New Testament supposed to not replace the Mosaic law, but to fulfill it? Here's where Apologetics come in (Don smileys added for emphasis):

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/970792

I'm glad you asked, since I'm a full-time professional Bible translator who also taught beginning Hebrew for seven years.

In the first place, it doesn't say the bears tore them "to pieces," but only mauled them.

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In the second place, the word "children" was used of Joseph when he was 28 years old, so it's a mistranslation. They weren't children; this was a gang of toughs.

In the third place, the text shows that they had surrounded him. How does it show that? Well, there are two separate Hebrew words for "bald." When they said "Go up, thou bald head," they were using the word for someone who is bald in back, and therefore this wasn't just a group of juvenile delinquents who saw him coming and mocked him on the way into their city; they were both in front of and behind him.

And in the fourth place, there was the nature of what they said. "Go up." Elijah had already ascended into heaven. They were telling him to do the same thing--to go up, to leave the earth, therefore to die. They were cursing him. You know what happens when you're the lone person (and an unarmed old man at that) in a crowd of 42 juvenile delinquents who are mocking and cursing you and wishing you would die. You are shortly going to be subject to extreme violence and possibly death. So the Lord created a distraction in the form of angry she-bears and the prophet could carry out his mission.


Way to go, Bible Answer-Man.
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Postby Monker » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:11 am

YoungJRNY wrote:
S2M wrote:All you religious zealots make me sick...you can't even keep your hallowed 'rules' straight...Having 'faith' ends with religion? Can't have faith in anything else? Faith is supposed to be a belief of believing in something when the lack of evidence exists for it....unless, of course, having faith runs counter to the same religious beliefs that enable you to subscribe to a faith-based existence in the first place.... :roll:

Can't have 'faith' in Hawking, or his beliefs? Typical hypocritical religious dogma....pitiful.


I have found that it is RELIGION that is the sin of this world. Just look at what it causes, including the wars that has come up so frequently in the form of the ever so thousands of religious beliefs there is out there. The only thing religion brings is argue, debate, deception, and judging to one another, causing nothing but disagreements and separation of the human base. Trouble if you ask me.

When it comes down to it, I will always believe that since man has to be finger-fed everything of the unexplained and since humanity and its form just needs to have an answer for everything, we... man... created an invisible man in the sky with bunches of rules to set in the fear of death in a way of comfort on how this world does indeed exist.


This reminded me of the below...had to go look it up...

From Farscape, "A Constellation of Doubt""

Noranti, "What constitutes a 'good' religion?"

Bobby, "Respect for life. Do unto others... "

Noranti, "Belief in a higher being?"

Bobby, "Of course."

Noranti, "Hypocrite!"

Bobby, "Me, or everyone?"

Noranti, "Well, your religions justify killing (picks up a crucifix) and all forms of atrocious behavior. You see, killing is often a part of life. What is hypocritical is to condemn and then make allowances when the situation suts."

Bobby, "So....it's OK to kill?"

Noranti, "Absolutely. Sometimes you must."

Bobby, "Are you in some kinda cult, like a witch or something?"

Noranti, "Not at the moment."

bobby, "Do religions hate each other where you come from?"

Noranti, "Ah! Heavens no! Religions are grand lofty ideas. Religious followers, now that's a different story."

Bobby, "Wars?"

Noranti, "Unspeakable."

Bobby, "So, we're not so different?"

Noranti, "That's nothing to be proud of."
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Postby Rip Rokken » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:19 am

YoungJRNY wrote:Of course Ms. Ginger, and I don't mean to put anything down. I actually said the same thing to my girlfriend and me and you certainly have that same vibe going on here. I explained to her afterwards that no matter what you or I believe, is that all I know is that I love you more than ever and no certain belief or disbelief will change that. I told her that tomorrow isn't guranteed and that I will live today the way it's meant to live and faith will never change that outlook I have on life when it comes down to it. We both agreed.

That's just the way I feel and how these debates will certainly end up. I don't mean to offend anyone and I certainly won't be offended as well. These are just some of the things that need to be said looking from both ends of the spectrum in a debate that will always have things said that people won't be too fond about. Enter at your own risk. :lol: :wink:


If your girlfriend's church or family hasn't made 2 Corinthians 6:14 an issue by now, keep an eye out for it. "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"
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Postby YoungJRNY » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:30 am

Rip Rokken wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:Of course Ms. Ginger, and I don't mean to put anything down. I actually said the same thing to my girlfriend and me and you certainly have that same vibe going on here. I explained to her afterwards that no matter what you or I believe, is that all I know is that I love you more than ever and no certain belief or disbelief will change that. I told her that tomorrow isn't guranteed and that I will live today the way it's meant to live and faith will never change that outlook I have on life when it comes down to it. We both agreed.

That's just the way I feel and how these debates will certainly end up. I don't mean to offend anyone and I certainly won't be offended as well. These are just some of the things that need to be said looking from both ends of the spectrum in a debate that will always have things said that people won't be too fond about. Enter at your own risk. :lol: :wink:


If your girlfriend's church or family hasn't made 2 Corinthians 6:14 an issue by now, keep an eye out for it. "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"


According to that quote, I am the darkness that has nothing in common with them even though I led the way into treating their daughter like royalty and having bests of times together through actions alone that would make any valuable person proud. :shock: :lol:
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Postby parfait » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:30 am

Rip Rokken wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:Of course Ms. Ginger, and I don't mean to put anything down. I actually said the same thing to my girlfriend and me and you certainly have that same vibe going on here. I explained to her afterwards that no matter what you or I believe, is that all I know is that I love you more than ever and no certain belief or disbelief will change that. I told her that tomorrow isn't guranteed and that I will live today the way it's meant to live and faith will never change that outlook I have on life when it comes down to it. We both agreed.

That's just the way I feel and how these debates will certainly end up. I don't mean to offend anyone and I certainly won't be offended as well. These are just some of the things that need to be said looking from both ends of the spectrum in a debate that will always have things said that people won't be too fond about. Enter at your own risk. :lol: :wink:


If your girlfriend's church or family hasn't made 2 Corinthians 6:14 an issue by now, keep an eye out for it. "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"


I don't get the whole point of the bible quotes. No one in their right mind would read the bible and say: "Well, jolly! This shit is like realistic!". The bible is a altruisticly (?) rooted fantasy book. But that's fine - faith is what it is. I wouldn't want to take away whatever one believes, no matter how retarded I think it is.

The thing that gets on my nerves though, is all the shit religious people continuously manage to stir up and hamper for the rest of the society. It acts in many cases like a damper for the rational and progressive. Just think about how the world would have been if everyone grew out of their faith and religion in the Age of Enlightenment. A brilliant quote to illustrate this is from Anne Dillard's book "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek":

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
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Postby Rip Rokken » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:27 am

YoungJRNY wrote:
Rip Rokken wrote:If your girlfriend's church or family hasn't made 2 Corinthians 6:14 an issue by now, keep an eye out for it. "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"


According to that quote, I am the darkness that has nothing in common with them even though I led the way into treating their daughter like royalty and having bests of times together through actions alone that would make any valuable person proud. :shock: :lol:


LOL. Well, all this really depends on where they draw the line in their own lives, because most religious people pick and choose what they want to follow and what they want to ignore. Most do it subconsciously and won't admit it to themselves, but it's the only way to live without going insane because the Bible sets up an impossibly high standard for post-salvation Christian life that nobody can follow. They may not be going to Hell at that point, but there is still a very strong and confusing sense of requirement for believers to achieve certain behavioral standards or levels of spiritual maturity, or else. Or else what? Supposedly grace replaced the law, so believers walk according to the spirit for guidance instead of memorizing and trying to abide by the Law of Moses. "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." Easier said than done... it's impossible to maintain 24/7. If just making your best effort, then asking forgiveness when you slip up enough was enough, that wouldn't be so hard, except that the emotional roller-coaster sense of success and failure that many experience tends to take a toll after a while. So what if self-condemnation comes from Satan instead of God? The people who do struggle with it can't get away from it. Eventually you learn that all strength and ability comes from God, that any of your own efforts are completely worthless and lead to nothing, and that even in post-salvation Christian life you need God to provide you with the strength you do not have, the love you do not have, and the will you do not have. That would be ok too, if he'd ever show up to provide those things he promised to provide, but he never does.

Some people are biologically wired in a way that they can adapt to religion much better than most, but for the majority, God alone is simply not enough to keep them going. They have to make compromise after compromise, and put all the tough things out of their heads just so they can have some real and lasting happiness. Jesus clearly says that anyone who is not willing to suffer for him isn't worthy of him. Suffering to take the Lord's way isn't real popular in American Christianity, and preaching about it is the best way to chase away your biggest tithers. Hopefully your girlfriend's family is compromised enough to accept you and recognize the great things you bring to their daughter's life.
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Postby fredinator » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:55 am

Doesn't the bible have value just in the way it's written? There is some of the most beautiful poetry and words of wisdom ever written in there. Just some of the scripture you've quoted Rip is beautiful in its prose and therefore is comforting just by the language. Scientists have said that music and poetry have some kind of mathematical connection in our brains so maybe one can find usefulness that way... I too lost my traditional faith a long time ago but with time I don't know exactly what is was that I lost to tell the truth. I'm coming around a little to a feeling that there is some kind of "state" maybe and not an end that is God; I think I've felt this state before listening to beautiful music or looking at colors or something. Just every so often it's like a profound feeling of listening or peace of mind or something. *Sigh* Anyhoo, most of the time I'm like you all questioning myself about that very same feeling, lol.
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Postby S2M » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:12 am

I'm Agnostic....but I can't help wondering,'Why?'. Why are we here? Is there a goal? A purpose? Evolving century after century. Aeon after aeon, until sometime down the road everything ends up exactly like Star Trek or Star Wars....That is the ONLY sliver of doubt I have about our origins, or our purpose.

To me, a God/religion serves 3 purposes:

1) As an explanation(in the bigining of times) to explain the natural disasters that were occuring...i.e....floods, bad crops...etc.

2) As a defense/coping mechanism in relation to life not quite turning out the way it is 'supposed' to...i.e. a baby dying, or an otherwise healthy person dying suddenly...you'd hear, 'I guess it was him time to go', or, 'I guess god had other plans for him/her'....

3) The purging of guilt. Which seemingly would only matter to a religious person. But I'm not religious, and feel guilt. So i cope with it my own way. I don't need the threat of eternal damnation to snap myself into the rank and file of a cult to cement my obedience. Christians seem to need that. And I'll tell you....some of the worst hypocrites I know are self pro-claimed 'religious' people.
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Postby Rip Rokken » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:50 am

S2M wrote:I'm Agnostic....but I can't help wondering,'Why?'. Why are we here? Is there a goal? A purpose? Evolving century after century. Aeon after aeon, until sometime down the road everything ends up exactly like Star Trek or Star Wars....That is the ONLY sliver of doubt I have about our origins, or our purpose.

To me, a God/religion serves 3 purposes:

1) As an explanation(in the bigining of times) to explain the natural disasters that were occuring...i.e....floods, bad crops...etc.

2) As a defense/coping mechanism in relation to life not quite turning out the way it is 'supposed' to...i.e. a baby dying, or an otherwise healthy person dying suddenly...you'd hear, 'I guess it was him time to go', or, 'I guess god had other plans for him/her'....

3) The purging of guilt. Which seemingly would only matter to a religious person. But I'm not religious, and feel guilt. So i cope with it my own way. I don't need the threat of eternal damnation to snap myself into the rank and file of a cult to cement my obedience. Christians seem to need that. And I'll tell you....some of the worst hypocrites I know are self pro-claimed 'religious' people.


4) As a means to control other people.
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Postby Saint John » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:59 am

Rip Rokken wrote:4) As a means to control other people.


Bingo.
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Postby S2M » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:59 am

Rip Rokken wrote:
S2M wrote:I'm Agnostic....but I can't help wondering,'Why?'. Why are we here? Is there a goal? A purpose? Evolving century after century. Aeon after aeon, until sometime down the road everything ends up exactly like Star Trek or Star Wars....That is the ONLY sliver of doubt I have about our origins, or our purpose.

To me, a God/religion serves 3 purposes:

1) As an explanation(in the bigining of times) to explain the natural disasters that were occuring...i.e....floods, bad crops...etc.

2) As a defense/coping mechanism in relation to life not quite turning out the way it is 'supposed' to...i.e. a baby dying, or an otherwise healthy person dying suddenly...you'd hear, 'I guess it was him time to go', or, 'I guess god had other plans for him/her'....

3) The purging of guilt. Which seemingly would only matter to a religious person. But I'm not religious, and feel guilt. So i cope with it my own way. I don't need the threat of eternal damnation to snap myself into the rank and file of a cult to cement my obedience. Christians seem to need that. And I'll tell you....some of the worst hypocrites I know are self pro-claimed 'religious' people.


4) As a means to control other people.



See #3....you control people through guilt. If you don't do 'This' you will burn in hell....
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Postby Rip Rokken » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:14 am

fredinator wrote:Doesn't the bible have value just in the way it's written? There is some of the most beautiful poetry and words of wisdom ever written in there. Just some of the scripture you've quoted Rip is beautiful in its prose and therefore is comforting just by the language. Scientists have said that music and poetry have some kind of mathematical connection in our brains so maybe one can find usefulness that way... I too lost my traditional faith a long time ago but with time I don't know exactly what is was that I lost to tell the truth. I'm coming around a little to a feeling that there is some kind of "state" maybe and not an end that is God; I think I've felt this state before listening to beautiful music or looking at colors or something. Just every so often it's like a profound feeling of listening or peace of mind or something. *Sigh* Anyhoo, most of the time I'm like you all questioning myself about that very same feeling, lol.


The Bible definitely has value, and offers some of the best guidelines around for how people should relate to others (which leads to personal satisfaction). From simple laws against things like killing, stealing, etc. to higher inter-relational concepts like kindness, forgiveness, and mercy - you can't beat it. Most of those things didn't originate with the Bible though, and can be found in older religions, but it doesn't discount its value.

I think that "state" you are talking about is really serenity. Calmness comes not from any spirit, but through the proper functioning of neurotransmitters in the brain like GAGA, Glycine and Taurine. I do think that "spiritual" things like guilt, anger, etc. definitely inhibit peace and calmness, and that's why dealing with those thing by asking for or offering forgiveness keeps things running smoothly.

Music does have a real effect on brain chemistry, and I never really realized how much I've relied on different kinds of music over the years to excite me, calm me, or get out pent up emotions until just a few years ago. I found a site that discusses this and mentions specifically which types affect the brain in different ways. Might be fun to try some of it out.

http://www.yourhealthbychoice.com/Music.htm

I love this part of course:

Rock and Roll

Most rock and roll is norepinephrine and dopamine boosting. However, rock is often hard to classify. Even hard rock bands produce serotonin-boosting songs from time to time, such as Guns and Roses' “November Rain.” Also, some people think of the Beatles and Simon and Garfunkle, for example as rock artists, though a great many of the Beatles' songs are serotonin boosters. (“I Will”; “Here, There and Everywhere”; “Something”; “Michele”; and many others), just as are most of Simon and Garfunkle's music (“Bridge over Troubled Water” is the classic examples). There are many rock artists who produce softer serotonin-boosting music. Once you get the hang of classifying music according to its effects on brain chemistry, you'll be able to go through your musical library and choose accordingly.
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Postby S2M » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:26 am

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Postby S2M » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:32 am

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Postby S2M » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:39 am

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Postby brywool » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:12 am

Burn Him! He's a Witch!!
NO. He's NOT Steve F'ing Perry. But he's Arnel F'ing Pineda and I'm okay with that.
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Postby Rip Rokken » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:14 am

S2M wrote:Richard Dawkns is my new hero....


Good stuff -- love this comment: "There are only 2 ways, I think, that religion could feed into morality. One way is that holy books could tell us what to do, and I hope that anyone who's read the Old Testament or the Koran will never say that because it would be quite apalling if we followed either."

Here's one for you. Just watched this yesterday and it's excellent -- it's a 10-parter if you have time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo
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Postby Rip Rokken » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:26 am

S2M wrote:Richard Dawkns is my new hero...


Dang, check him totally Kung-Fu this girl from an audience who asked him, "What if you're wrong?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

Brilliant...

His response to this is hilarious...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2xGIwQfik
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Postby YoungJRNY » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:56 am

Wow, good finds, Malone. I'm going to have to pick up this book by Hawking and give it a nice thorough reading.
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Postby BobbyinTN » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:08 am

I think everyone is entitled to believe exactly as they wish, but I love how Christians think they are "favored".

If there is a God, he is indefinable and no book ever written will ever give you insight into who or what that God is.

I can't believe people would insult the genius of Hawking and then proclaim the Bible is the perfect word of God. LMAO
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Postby YoungJRNY » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:24 am

BobbyinTN wrote:I think everyone is entitled to believe exactly as they wish, but I love how Christians think they are "favored".

If there is a God, he is indefinable and no book ever written will ever give you insight into who or what that God is.

I can't believe people would insult the genius of Hawking and then proclaim the Bible is the perfect word of God. LMAO


All one has got to do is take a look around this scum and filth of a world. Take one step outside of your comfort zone and realize and witness how unsafe and downright scary/nightmarish this world actually is. It really is just a mess. If this is the best God could do, then I am NOT impressed.
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Postby S2M » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:32 am

YoungJRNY wrote:Wow, good finds, Malone. I'm going to have to pick up this book by Hawking and give it a nice thorough reading.



Thanks, Travis....may I suggest picking up Dawkin's 'The God Delusion' instead?
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Postby Jana » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:41 am

YoungJRNY wrote:
BobbyinTN wrote:I think everyone is entitled to believe exactly as they wish, but I love how Christians think they are "favored".

If there is a God, he is indefinable and no book ever written will ever give you insight into who or what that God is.

I can't believe people would insult the genius of Hawking and then proclaim the Bible is the perfect word of God. LMAO


All one has got to do is take a look around this scum and filth of a world. Take one step outside of your comfort zone and realize and witness how unsafe and downright scary/nightmarish this world actually is. It really is just a mess. If this is the best God could do, then I am NOT impressed.


God created man and gave us free will.
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Postby S2M » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:02 am

Jana wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:
BobbyinTN wrote:I think everyone is entitled to believe exactly as they wish, but I love how Christians think they are "favored".

If there is a God, he is indefinable and no book ever written will ever give you insight into who or what that God is.

I can't believe people would insult the genius of Hawking and then proclaim the Bible is the perfect word of God. LMAO


All one has got to do is take a look around this scum and filth of a world. Take one step outside of your comfort zone and realize and witness how unsafe and downright scary/nightmarish this world actually is. It really is just a mess. If this is the best God could do, then I am NOT impressed.


God created man and gave us free will.


Ok....then if he gave us free will....he gave us free will not to believe in him....and thus getting into 'Heaven' shouldn't be based on believing in him.....And this whole FREE WILL defense by believers is played out....WHY would a supreme being create VERY primitive organisms...then watch from WHEREVER and observe what happens for MILLIONS of years?


I guess its "God's" version of watching flies fuck? :?
Last edited by S2M on Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rip Rokken » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:11 am

Jana wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:All one has got to do is take a look around this scum and filth of a world. Take one step outside of your comfort zone and realize and witness how unsafe and downright scary/nightmarish this world actually is. It really is just a mess. If this is the best God could do, then I am NOT impressed.


God created man and gave us free will.


I'm not so worried about the state of the world as argument against Christianity, as the Bible predicts things will be as they were in the days of Noah (allegedly wretched) when Christ returns to clean house and set things right. It is a great argument against a perfectly loving and righteous God though.

Free will in the Bible = Love me and put me first above all things, or suffer in eternal fire which burns forever and ever. Choose freely.

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Postby Michigan Girl » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:16 am

S2M wrote:
Jana wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:
BobbyinTN wrote:I think everyone is entitled to believe exactly as they wish, but I love how Christians think they are "favored".

If there is a God, he is indefinable and no book ever written will ever give you insight into who or what that God is.

I can't believe people would insult the genius of Hawking and then proclaim the Bible is the perfect word of God. LMAO


All one has got to do is take a look around this scum and filth of a world. Take one step outside of your comfort zone and realize and witness how unsafe and downright scary/nightmarish this world actually is. It really is just a mess. If this is the best God could do, then I am NOT impressed.


God created man and gave us free will.


Ok....then if he gave us free will....he gave us free will not to believe in him....and thus getting into 'Heaven' shouldn't be based on believing in him.....And this whole FREE WILL defense by believers is played out....WHY would a supreme being create VERY primitive organisms...then watch from WHEREVER and observe what happens for MILLIONS of years?


I guess its "God's" version of watching flies fuck? :?
You do have that choice ...why are you concerned about getting into heaven?!?!
Unless you think heaven is a female ... :?
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Postby S2M » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:20 am

Michigan Girl wrote:
S2M wrote:
Jana wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:
BobbyinTN wrote:I think everyone is entitled to believe exactly as they wish, but I love how Christians think they are "favored".

If there is a God, he is indefinable and no book ever written will ever give you insight into who or what that God is.

I can't believe people would insult the genius of Hawking and then proclaim the Bible is the perfect word of God. LMAO


All one has got to do is take a look around this scum and filth of a world. Take one step outside of your comfort zone and realize and witness how unsafe and downright scary/nightmarish this world actually is. It really is just a mess. If this is the best God could do, then I am NOT impressed.


God created man and gave us free will.


Ok....then if he gave us free will....he gave us free will not to believe in him....and thus getting into 'Heaven' shouldn't be based on believing in him.....And this whole FREE WILL defense by believers is played out....WHY would a supreme being create VERY primitive organisms...then watch from WHEREVER and observe what happens for MILLIONS of years?


I guess its "God's" version of watching flies fuck? :?
You do have that choice ...why are you concerned about getting into heaven?!?!
Unless you think heaven is a female ... :?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR6pKPyEHpM
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Postby Michigan Girl » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:26 am

ahhaahhaaa!! I knew that's what it was ...I thought of it when I was typing ^^^^that!! :wink:

So that is your ultimate goal!! It probably is like watching
flies fuck!! :shock: :wink:
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Postby Andrew » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:32 am

I think EVERYONE here need to read this VERY informative site ASAP and repeant against everything they outline in their surmons.

http://www.av1611.org/articles.html#Rock
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