Tragedy in AZ: God be w/Rep. Gabrielle Giiffords and others

[conversationpc]

It's being reported over here that the FBI are investigating whether there is a link between the shootings and gunsight graphics posted on a map that can be found on Sarah Palins website.

Oh good grief...This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. The folks in the media are just insanely in search of almost anything that will even remotely tie Palin in with something like this.

[Seven Wishes2]

It's one of the consequences of living in one of the world's most democratic societies.

That, and the abhorrent lack of regulation on firearms.

Better put would be abhorrent lack of ENFORCEMENT of existing gun laws.

There is PLENTY of regulation.

You're right. I think a little more would go a long way, too.

[Seven Wishes2]

This country is too big and too populated to take guns out of society.
Doing so would only put guns into the hands even MORE of people
you DON'T want to have them, such as criminals. The geniuses who
wrote the Constitution put gun ownership #2 only behind free speech.
They understood the importance of the government being kept at
bay from oppressing the people. You people who get all up in arms
(pun intended) about guns should understand they are tools and
ONLY the PERSON using it will determine it's purpose, good or bad.
Contrary to your liberal beliefs, guns in the hands of the RIGHT people
WILL save lives, and HAVE saved lives.

The flawed Kellerman paper notwithstanding, research indicates that residents of homes where a gun is present are 2.7 times more likely to experience a suicide and three times more likely to experience a homicide than residents of homes without guns. Additionally, a gun kept in the home is 16.2 times more likely to kill a member of the household, or friend, than an intruder.

[whirlwind]

It's being reported over here that the FBI are investigating whether there is a link between the shootings and gunsight graphics posted on a map that can be found on Sarah Palins website.

Oh good grief...This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. The folks in the media are just insanely in search of almost anything that will even remotely tie Palin in with something like this.

Only to the extent that her website had a graphics such as that when there are so many nutcases out and about. It was like a blueprint for the crazies.

[Seven Wishes2]

He was NOT a leftist as has been pointed out REPEATEDLY already.

* pro-gun
* paramilitary
* Nazi sympathizer
* anti-immigration
* anti stem cell research

Whatever, LiePaster.

[conversationpc]

He was NOT a leftist as has been pointed out REPEATEDLY already.

* pro-gun
* paramilitary
* Nazi sympathizer
* anti-immigration
* anti stem cell research

Whatever, LiePaster.

His writings and videos are replete with Communist ideology, which is far closer to left-wing thought than it is right. Not only that but people who've known him have described him as a liberal.

[Seven Wishes2]

Um...nothing I've read.

Look at what I just posted. What exactly about that profile makes him liberal?

He is a fucking psycho! What else do you need? Enough already.

[S2M]

Question:

Why do you people find it SO important to label people? Who the fuck cares if someone was a liberal, conservative, or otherwise....

[conversationpc]

Um...nothing I've read.

Look at what I just posted. What exactly about that profile makes him liberal?

He is a fucking psycho! What else do you need? Enough already.

Watch the videos that were linked in the Huffington Post article I posted earlier. They're filled with Communist ideology. He also listed the Communist Manifesto amongst his favorite books on his Facebook profile.

[Behshad]

Question:

Why do you people find it SO important to label people? Who the fuck cares if someone was a liberal, conservative, or otherwise....

Exactly.
And if you REALLY have to label the guy , PSYCHO is a much better choice !

[treetopovskaya]

Let's see Stu.

We currently have the laws that you support. 6 people dead. Your law failed. None of the 100 or so people in that grocery store had or used a gun to protect themselves or eachother. So your theory of having guns to protect yourself doesn't fly here.
Anytime there's a shooting like this , how come we don't have the people shoot back and kill the guy ?!
The laws your supporting simply belong to the WildWildWest era.

Anyone besides law enforcement , wanting to get any kind of guns , should go through a thorough interview and full psychological evaluation/examination AND provide valid reasons to qualify to carry firearms.

b... i totally agree with you. my point is it really doesn't matter. people who intend on doing harm to people will. regardless of any law in place.

how many guns purchased legally are used in crimes anyway? unless these guns are stolen or given away after purchase. i dunno... if i were planning on robbing a bank i think i would purchase my weapons where they couldn't be traced back to me.

hubby said he heard on the radio that now they're thinking the gun used in the az shooting was purchased legally just not by the shooter. hmm. i can't find any news online.

so sad. }:C(((((

[Seven Wishes2]

Thanks for proving my point for me again.

If he really did go through an "FBI background check," it doesn't say much for the legitimacy of that process if a known criminal who had been hospitalized for mental instability went through clear and clear. The point is - IF THERE WERE BETTER REGULATION - such people would be automatically disqualified from purchasing a firearm.

And I love, Dave, how you equivocate "communism" with "leftism". Liberalism is a political ideology that thinks that an individual is free from all interferences and restrictions - and has much in common with centrist libertarianism. Communism pertains to the welfare of the society or community, with no regard to the freedom of the individual, and is implicitly (by definition) a class-less and state-less society. The two are as disparate as conservatism and Naziism.

[S2M]

I continue to be amazed that people CONTINUE to confuse Communism as a political model...when it is, in fact, an economic one....

[Seven Wishes2]

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/communism.aspx

Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Communist+economic+system

Communism as a theory of government and social reform may be said, in a limited sense, to have begun with the ancient Greek idea of the Golden Age, a concept of a world of communal bliss and harmony without the institution of private property. Plato, in his Republic, outlined a society with communal holding of property; his concept of a hierarchical social system including slavery has by some been called "aristocratic communism."

[S2M]

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/communism.aspx

Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Communist+economic+system

Communism as a theory of government and social reform may be said, in a limited sense, to have begun with the ancient Greek idea of the Golden Age, a concept of a world of communal bliss and harmony without the institution of private property. Plato, in his Republic, outlined a society with communal holding of property; his concept of a hierarchical social system including slavery has by some been called "aristocratic communism."

I don't care what it says....it is an economic model.

And if you continue to claim otherwise, better go tell Castro that his country is just in a brief recession.

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

Thanks for proving my point for me again.

Liberalism is a political ideology that thinks that an individual is free from all interferences and restrictions - and has much in common with centrist libertarianism. .

True classical liberalism is a political philosophy that begins with the premise that individuals have natural rights and all forms of political association must respect that (hence belief in free markets, private property, and a minimalist state (but nopt anarchy) Conservativism was its enemy in the world of 19th centry politics. in the 20/21st centrury what we call "liberalism" in the American political vernacular does not equate to classical liberalism.

[Rick]

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/communism.aspx

Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Communist+economic+system

Communism as a theory of government and social reform may be said, in a limited sense, to have begun with the ancient Greek idea of the Golden Age, a concept of a world of communal bliss and harmony without the institution of private property. Plato, in his Republic, outlined a society with communal holding of property; his concept of a hierarchical social system including slavery has by some been called "aristocratic communism."

I don't care what it says....it is an economic model.

And if you continue to claim otherwise, better go tell Castro that his country is just in a brief recession.

[Melissa]

I laughed out loud at that comeback too Rick

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/communism.aspx

Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Communist+economic+system

Communism as a theory of government and social reform may be said, in a limited sense, to have begun with the ancient Greek idea of the Golden Age, a concept of a world of communal bliss and harmony without the institution of private property. Plato, in his Republic, outlined a society with communal holding of property; his concept of a hierarchical social system including slavery has by some been called "aristocratic communism."

I don't care what it says....it is an economic model.

And if you continue to claim otherwise, better go tell Castro that his country is just in a brief recession.

Communism is the political and economic expression of a utopian and materialistic world view / philosophy.

[Seven Wishes2]

Thanks for proving my point for me again.

Liberalism is a political ideology that thinks that an individual is free from all interferences and restrictions - and has much in common with centrist libertarianism. .

True classical liberalism is a political philosophy that begins with the premise that individuals have natural rights and all forms of political association must respect that (hence belief in free markets, private property, and a minimalist state (but nopt anarchy) Conservativism was its enemy in the world of 19th centry politics. in the 20/21st centrury what we call "liberalism" in the American political vernacular does not equate to classical liberalism.

Very well-put.

My comment pertained to the individual rights mandate, and not the two philosophies in their broadest, most generic forms.

[Angel]

This country is too big and too populated to take guns out of society.
Doing so would only put guns into the hands even MORE of people
you DON'T want to have them, such as criminals. The geniuses who
wrote the Constitution put gun ownership #2 only behind free speech.
They understood the importance of the government being kept at
bay from oppressing the people. You people who get all up in arms
(pun intended) about guns should understand they are tools and
ONLY the PERSON using it will determine it's purpose, good or bad.
Contrary to your liberal beliefs, guns in the hands of the RIGHT people
WILL save lives, and HAVE saved lives.

The flawed Kellerman paper notwithstanding, research indicates that residents of homes where a gun is present are 2.7 times more likely to experience a suicide and three times more likely to experience a homicide than residents of homes without guns. Additionally, a gun kept in the home is 16.2 times more likely to kill a member of the household, or friend, than an intruder.

So are you saying that if guns weren't in the home the person would not commit suicide by some other means, that the person that commits a homicide wouldn't do it by another means, etc.?

The point that I think some of you are missing is that this guy was mentally unstable in so many ways-he would have caused harm no matter what-he would have found a way to do it. As, I believe Stu brought up earlier, the terrorists that attacked on 9/11 used box cutters and airplanes. Those that are determined to commit these acts will do so regarless of gun control laws. I just don't see how you can think that gun laws are going to stop freaks-its not like this guy is going to think to himself "gee, I'd love to kill this Congresswoman but gee, I can't seem to get my hands on a gun so I guess I'll just go about being a model citizen."

I do agree with enforcing gun regulations and even in some cases stricter laws but I really don't think that even stricter regulations would have stopped this guy.

[SteveForever]

another redneck looking for notriety like that crazy asshole in the Oklahoma City bombings.....

[Melissa]

The flawed Kellerman paper notwithstanding, research indicates that residents of homes where a gun is present are 2.7 times more likely to experience a suicide and three times more likely to experience a homicide than residents of homes without guns. Additionally, a gun kept in the home is 16.2 times more likely to kill a member of the household, or friend, than an intruder.

Actually ask a cop who has worked plenty of suicides and the more popular ways over guns still remain to be overdosing on pills, hangings, and the good old fashioned wrist-slitting.

[Seven Wishes2]

The flawed Kellerman paper notwithstanding, research indicates that residents of homes where a gun is present are 2.7 times more likely to experience a suicide and three times more likely to experience a homicide than residents of homes without guns. Additionally, a gun kept in the home is 16.2 times more likely to kill a member of the household, or friend, than an intruder.

Actually ask a cop who has worked plenty of suicides and the more popular ways over guns still remain to be overdosing on pills, hangings, and the good old fashioned wrist-slitting.

OK, whatever.

Statistics and facts speak for themselves.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5322a2.htm

The most recent suicide method statistics were recorded in 2004. This data found that firearms accounted for 57% of deaths in men, and 32% in women. Suffocation was the second most often used method, happening 23% of the time in men, and 20% in women. Poisoning was found to be the third leading cause of death by suicide, occurring in 13% of men, and 38% of women.

[ebake02]

Ok...this...is...just...for...fun...I...like...fun...do...you???


http://dockets.justia.com/docket/arizon ... 03/568697/

A Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) report circulating in the Kremlin today states that the top US Federal Judge for the State of Arizona was assassinated barely 72-hours after he made a critical ruling against the Obama administrations plan to begin the confiscation of their citizen’s private retirement and banking accounts in order to stave off their nations imminent economic collapse, and after having the US Marshals protecting him removed.

According to this SVR report, Federal Judge John McCarthy Roll [photo 2nd left] was the Chief Judge for the United States District Court for the District of Arizona who this past Friday issued what is called a “preliminary ruling” in a case titled “United States of America v. $333,520.00 in United States Currency et al” [Case Number: 4:2010cv00703 Filed: November 30, 2010] wherein he stated he was preparing to rule against Obama’s power to seize American citizens money without clear and convincing evidence of a crime being committed.

The case being ruled on by Judge Roll, this report continues, was about bulk cash smuggling into or out of the United States that the Obama administration claimed was their right to seize under what are called Presidential Executive Orders, instead of using existing laws. The Obama administration used as support for their claim before Judge Roll, the SVR says, the seizing of all American citizens’ gold, in 1933, by President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s signing of Executive Order 6102, which was ruled at the time to be constitutional.

Should the Obama administration win their argument to seize their citizen’s money by Executive Order without having to abide by the law was made more chilling this past week when reports emerged from the US stating that President Obama and his regime allies were, indeed, preparing to rule America by decree since their loss this past November of their control over the US House of Representatives, and in the words of the Washington Posts columnist Charles Krauthammer: “For an Obama bureaucrat … the will of the Congress is a mere speed bump.”

Since taking office in early 2009, Obama has completely overturned the once free United States through his use of Executive Orders that asserts his power to put anyone he wants in prison without charges or trial forever and his right to assassinate any American citizen he deems a threat.

The most chilling of these powers Obama has asserted for himself, however, are contained in Executive Order 13528 he signed nearly a year ago (January 10, 2010) creating a Council of Governors he has hand-picked to rule over the United States in place of its elected representatives when their next “disaster” strikes and orders them to begin “synchronization and integration of State and Federal military activities in the United States; and other matters of mutual interest pertaining to National Guard, homeland defense, and civil support activities.”

You have entered the Twlight Zone...

What the fuck is this?

[Seven Wishes2]

FF, you are so out of touch, such a conspiracy whore, that you can't tell white from black.

Presidents have had this power since 1836. Additionally, your boy Dubbya circumvented the law to attack Iraq and illegally eavesdrop on citizens. Bush's blatant disregard for the Constitution was frightening.

[Melissa]

The flawed Kellerman paper notwithstanding, research indicates that residents of homes where a gun is present are 2.7 times more likely to experience a suicide and three times more likely to experience a homicide than residents of homes without guns. Additionally, a gun kept in the home is 16.2 times more likely to kill a member of the household, or friend, than an intruder.

Actually ask a cop who has worked plenty of suicides and the more popular ways over guns still remain to be overdosing on pills, hangings, and the good old fashioned wrist-slitting.

OK, whatever.

Statistics and facts speak for themselves.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5322a2.htm

The most recent suicide method statistics were recorded in 2004. This data found that firearms accounted for 57% of deaths in men, and 32% in women. Suffocation was the second most often used method, happening 23% of the time in men, and 20% in women. Poisoning was found to be the third leading cause of death by suicide, occurring in 13% of men, and 38% of women.

From 1992-2001, and for people aged 19 and younger. And that's supposed to mean that's exactly the same for the last 10 years too, as well as what is more common now? Ok.

Those people would have killed themselves regardless of whether they had a firearm or not. So are we supposed to put regulations on Tylenol now? Rope? Razors? Where is it supposed to stop?

Oh and in case you didn't notice, the firearm rate decreased in those years.

[Behshad]

The flawed Kellerman paper notwithstanding, research indicates that residents of homes where a gun is present are 2.7 times more likely to experience a suicide and three times more likely to experience a homicide than residents of homes without guns. Additionally, a gun kept in the home is 16.2 times more likely to kill a member of the household, or friend, than an intruder.

Actually ask a cop who has worked plenty of suicides and the more popular ways over guns still remain to be overdosing on pills, hangings, and the good old fashioned wrist-slitting.

OK, whatever.

Statistics and facts speak for themselves.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5322a2.htm

The most recent suicide method statistics were recorded in 2004. This data found that firearms accounted for 57% of deaths in men, and 32% in women. Suffocation was the second most often used method, happening 23% of the time in men, and 20% in women. Poisoning was found to be the third leading cause of death by suicide, occurring in 13% of men, and 38% of women.

From 1992-2001, and for people aged 19 and younger. And that's supposed to mean that's exactly the same for the last 10 years too, as well as what is more common now? Ok.

Those people would have killed themselves regardless of whether they had a firearm or not. So are we supposed to put regulations on Tylenol now? Rope? Razors? Where is it supposed to stop?

Explain to me how this 22 year old psycho would've killed 6 people with a bottle of Tylenol , A rope or even a razor ! THAT'S the main reason we need strict & controlled gun laws. Guns are MADE to kill. Simple as that.

[yulog]

"Beginning in 1997, among persons aged 10--14 years, suffocation surpassed firearms as the most common suicide method. The decline in firearm suicides combined with the increase in suicides by suffocation suggests that changes have occurred in suicidal behavior among youths during the preceding decade."


The findings in this report indicate that the overall suicide rate for persons aged 10--19 years in the United States declined during 1992--2001 and that substantial changes occurred in the types of suicide methods used among those persons aged 10--14 and 15--19 years. Rates of suicide using firearms and poisoning decreased, whereas suicides by suffocation increased. By the end of the period, suffocation had surpassed firearms to become the most common method of suicide death among persons aged 10--14 years.


Thanks for the 10 yr old report that clearly showed a trend away from guns and toward hangings, I'd have to say point Melissa!

[Memorex]

FF, you are so out of touch, such a conspiracy whore, that you can't tell white from black.

Presidents have had this power since 1836. Additionally, your boy Dubbya circumvented the law to attack Iraq and illegally eavesdrop on citizens. Bush's blatant disregard for the Constitution was frightening.

Which this Admin has defended and EXPANDED and which the next Admin will surely expand. This is not a repub or dem issue, it is a whoever is in power issue. You all need to stop excoriating one side for the same shit your guy does. R and D!

Both sides of the same coin!